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Old 2010-01-25, 03:41   Link #21
Daniel E.
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Originally Posted by Flame-X View Post
But playing a game with a good story and terrible gameplay, it gets really frustrating and loses its fun.
Or a game with a story, setting and characters you just can't get into.

And yes, I don't like Planescape: Torment.

I love rpgs with stories I like, but in the end, it's the gameplay that makes the game for me.
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Old 2010-01-25, 13:01   Link #22
Nosauz
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Actually come to think of it, if you look at the God of war series, the gameplay is fantastic "arcadey" and the story is decent but I can tell you for one thing I find the gameplay more memorable than the story, I could careless why I was killing atlas or why I was decapitating harpies or swinging the two swords attached to chains but it was the gameplay that was fun. Also if you look at torchlight, which has no real story and solely focuses on the hack and slash loot grind, games don't need story because as long as the gameplay is great the terrible story can be forgiven since we can do things amazingly beyond our capacity.
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Old 2010-01-25, 13:11   Link #23
synaesthetic
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I'm surprised how many people will play an RPG with a bad storyline.

Mindless grinding isn't fun. I better get payoff in the form of a good plot. When it comes to gameplay I generally despise how RPGs play--I am in it purely for the story. Excel: The Calculating is not exactly fun unless you're a statistics major.

This is why I can forgive games like PS:T that have terrible gameplay but awesome storylines. Because the gameplay of an RPG, no matter how "good," is going to be ultimately unimportant to me next to the story.

You want me to care about the gameplay of an RPG, put gameplay elements from other genres into it. Deus Ex is loads of fun, but the gameplay is almost wholly FPS-based rather than, "A SLIME APPROACHES! COMMAND?"

Fallout 3 is an excellent example of how to make an RPG that I'll enjoy both the gameplay and the story. Plays like an FPS, has all the character development and interaction of an RPG and the Excel spreadsheets are kept to a minimum. Or even Knights of the Old Republic--plays like a third-person action game, but has all the good RPG bits.

Oddly enough, I don't seem to mind turn-based strategy games too much, and in fact some of my favorites are turn-based...

tl;dr version: I really don't like jRPGs.
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Old 2010-01-25, 14:03   Link #24
Bonta Kun
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^ I don't see how it would be considered "mindless grinding" if the story ain't as good as one hopes yet the gameplay is smashing fun.
If the gameplay is fun to the person then it doesn't become "mindless grinding" now does it?

for instance I love Dynasty Warriors, I know that it's "mindless grinding" for many others but I just love it.

well like most others, it depends on the genre, ok stories I can let go if they are great fun to play.

but really I just play anything that just takes my fancy.
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Old 2010-01-25, 14:12   Link #25
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I got the impression the "mindless grinding" thing was referring to RPGs specifically. At least it was when I mentioned it in my previous post. Not an action game like Dynasty Warriors where you get run around annihilating legions of enemies by swinging your weapon, but something where you get to run around fighting the same random battle over and over by selecting "swing weapon" from the attack menu. I guess people might enjoy even that somehow (actually I guess a lot of people do since Dragon Quest 8 was apparently a popular game) but for me that barely even constitutes gameplay.
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Old 2010-01-25, 14:32   Link #26
Nikkan
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I only have one thing to say:



Yes, story matters!
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Old 2010-01-25, 15:53   Link #27
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If it has no story, I am not interested.
If it has a simple story, I grow tired fast.
If it has a good story, I will always remember it.
Gameplay just helps not losing interest... or playing 5 hours straight.

I mean, I liked Mortal Kombat more than Street Fighter just because the first had a few more lines of story than the second.

I was glued on my PSX during my first encounter with Xenogears, despite the already crude and dated graphics.

But there can be nice combos of story and gameplay. Odin's Sphere comes to mind. Boy, the visuals were great too.

I still enjoyed Armored Core because of the gameplay and not of the story.

Oh, and let's not forget Metal Gear Solid. A movie dressed as a game.
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Old 2010-01-25, 16:55   Link #28
synaesthetic
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Yes, I was referring to a) the fact that I largely dislike RPG gameplay to begin with and b) that all RPGs incorporate some level of grind.
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Old 2010-01-25, 17:24   Link #29
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I play anything and everything I started till the end, regardless of graphics, gameplay or plot (or lack thereof). I am hardcore. That being said, I haven't played a game I didn't like so far but that's probably the addiction deep within.
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Old 2010-01-25, 20:18   Link #30
Xion Valkyrie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I'm surprised how many people will play an RPG with a bad storyline.

Mindless grinding isn't fun. I better get payoff in the form of a good plot. When it comes to gameplay I generally despise how RPGs play--I am in it purely for the story. Excel: The Calculating is not exactly fun unless you're a statistics major.

This is why I can forgive games like PS:T that have terrible gameplay but awesome storylines. Because the gameplay of an RPG, no matter how "good," is going to be ultimately unimportant to me next to the story.

You want me to care about the gameplay of an RPG, put gameplay elements from other genres into it. Deus Ex is loads of fun, but the gameplay is almost wholly FPS-based rather than, "A SLIME APPROACHES! COMMAND?"

Fallout 3 is an excellent example of how to make an RPG that I'll enjoy both the gameplay and the story. Plays like an FPS, has all the character development and interaction of an RPG and the Excel spreadsheets are kept to a minimum. Or even Knights of the Old Republic--plays like a third-person action game, but has all the good RPG bits.

Oddly enough, I don't seem to mind turn-based strategy games too much, and in fact some of my favorites are turn-based...

tl;dr version: I really don't like jRPGs.
Tri-Ace RPGs have always been more about gameplay than storyline. Let's take a look at what I consider their best JRPG, Valkyrie Profile: The gameplay is superb on almost all accounts. Right form the start, you get to fly around the world map and go through the dungeons you have available in any order you wish to. The dungeons themselves are masterfully designed, especially the hard mode ones. Normally in RPGs, going around in dungeons just involves walking until you solve some puzzle to unlock a door, etc. In Valkyrie Profile, all the dungeons involve platforming, and in the Hard mode ones, you actually need some pretty strong platforming skills. Of course, there are puzzles, and Valkyrie Profile has some of the strongest puzzles I've seen in RPGs. The puzzles involve both platforming, and your crystal abilities, so they don't seem gimmicky. Then there's the combat system, which is incredibly fun since it's combo based and you can do crazy stuff with air juggles and incredibly long chains.

Oh, and there's Valkyrie Profile 2, which improves upon the puzzles and battle system of the first game, but is a bit weaker in other areas. They took the awesome fun actiony combat system of VP1, and added more tactics and more options to it, and fixed the broken parts. The platforming crystal puzzles is improved in all regards, although they're not MUCH harder.

Here's a pretty simple puzzle in VP2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUEND...eature=related
Here's a really crazy one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWRyV4aH-bU
This one took me like, 2 hours to figure out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAD_V...eature=related

Basically, the entire game is just a blast to play through, as it's never boring to navigate through a complex dungeon or fight battles. That's how good gameplay can be in JRPGs.

Last edited by Xion Valkyrie; 2010-01-25 at 20:29.
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Old 2010-01-25, 20:37   Link #31
Vexx
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Dragon Age: Origins is my current RPG and I'm transfixed by it despite the fact I've essentially disabled all the auto-tactical "AI" for my group characters out of annoyance. This essentially turns combat into a time-click turn-based micro-managed event (shades of Pools of Radiance from 1988). But I'm okay with this because I'm enjoying the storyline (epic adventure, romance, political intrigue, etc) very much. The way the story can evolve in so many directions is also quite interesting (as I've said elsewhere, in addition to being an RPG it appears to be the world's most sophisticated date-sim eroge methinks).
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Old 2010-01-25, 21:25   Link #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
Read it if you want o.0
You are forgetting that Valkyrie Profile also had an absolutely wonderful story. Its story was better than its gameplay, I don't know about the second one though. And it had amazingly done voice acting, absolutely unheard of at the time. Its one of the rare cases where good gameplay and good story co-exist but those are certainly the exception, not the other way around.

Another absolutely marvelous game with both a good story and great gameplay would be Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 4. Actually, any game out of the series is great.

I hear Demon's Souls has great gameplay, haven't tried it firsthand though.

Its not just the WRPGs that have good gameplay and I hate them more than most JRPGS because most JRPGS have a decent story at least. Of course, great games from the elder scrolls series, the diablo series and the fallout series are exceptions to the WRPG suck rule. I am absolutely OK with playing a game with decent enough gameplay but with a good story. If a game lacks a good story but has great gameplay, that's fine as well. But if a game has decent enough gameplay but a sucky story, I can't play it. And of course, the majority of the games are lacking in both areas.
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Old 2010-01-25, 22:24   Link #33
Nosauz
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Dragon Age: Origins is my current RPG and I'm transfixed by it despite the fact I've essentially disabled all the auto-tactical "AI" for my group characters out of annoyance. This essentially turns combat into a time-click turn-based micro-managed event (shades of Pools of Radiance from 1988). But I'm okay with this because I'm enjoying the storyline (epic adventure, romance, political intrigue, etc) very much. The way the story can evolve in so many directions is also quite interesting (as I've said elsewhere, in addition to being an RPG it appears to be the world's most sophisticated date-sim eroge methinks).
from what I've read it sound just like sengoku rance in the structure of how to get people to like you, it doesn't sound too ground breaking.
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Old 2010-01-25, 22:43   Link #34
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Dragon Age: Origins is my current RPG and I'm transfixed by it despite the fact I've essentially disabled all the auto-tactical "AI" for my group characters out of annoyance. This essentially turns combat into a time-click turn-based micro-managed event (shades of Pools of Radiance from 1988). But I'm okay with this because I'm enjoying the storyline (epic adventure, romance, political intrigue, etc) very much. The way the story can evolve in so many directions is also quite interesting (as I've said elsewhere, in addition to being an RPG it appears to be the world's most sophisticated date-sim eroge methinks).
Dragon Age is interesting in that it's one of Bioware's most polished titles yet, but the story... notsomuch.

Basically if you take all the character and place names and replace them with Star Wars themes, you wouldn't really be able to tell Dragon Age from Knights of the Old Republic. Bioware is really bad about this, especially since Black Isle disintegrated. The Baldur's Gate series still remains my favorite Bioware titles, as a lot of the ambiguity and humor absent from later Bioware titles is very much present in the BG games (largely in part due to Black Isle's influence).

This is perhaps one of the reasons why I like Neverwinter Nights 2 and KOTOR2: The Sith Lords much more than their predecessors--Obsidian Entertainment is largely staffed by former Black Isle employees (specifically headed up by Chris Avellone, who was on the Planescape: Torment design team).
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Old 2010-01-26, 00:00   Link #35
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Gameplay is more important then the storyline. If the gameplay is terrible, players wouldn't even get through the game to know the storyline but if the storyline is bad, the game is still playable. Storyline is only really important in RPGs anyway. Other genre just need a simple plot. It is nevertheless an important part of a game. A game with a weak storyline will get forgotten fast.

This thread makes me think of the time when i play JRPG without knowing a single word in Japanese.
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Old 2010-01-26, 04:53   Link #36
Vexx
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I will admit the deeper into the storyline it goes, the more pedantic the method of upping relationship is ("here, have a gift... have another"). It was interesting when it depended more on what you *said* to them and all four choices sounded right based on what you knew at the time.

I watched my son play a bit of KOTR.... and yeah, it isn't much advanced over that. However, at that point I had totally burned out on "Star Wars" and simply couldn't be bothered with trying the game.
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Old 2010-01-26, 04:55   Link #37
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I always think storyline is much more important than gameplay(maybe because I start playing game with RPG). No matter how much fun the gameplay is, I get bored after 5-6 hours playing, while a game that has a great storyline always compel me to keep playing until the end, even by skipping collectible or using cheat device to finish the game.
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Old 2010-01-26, 06:12   Link #38
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Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
You are forgetting that Valkyrie Profile also had an absolutely wonderful story. Its story was better than its gameplay. I don't know about the second one though.
The second has a hit-or-miss story (too many convinient events the characters can't prevent although their abilities dictate otherwise). The gameplay was much improved, becoming almost strategy/RPG. But the grinding... what a fail! As the story goes on, you lose all the story-driven characters. You are left with stunts that I had no reason to bother leveling. I reached a point where the epic-level cast was taken away from the team and I was left in a huge dungeon of uber monsters and just a few low-level drone characters (because I was releasing anyone becoming strong enough). What kind of a game would force you to neglect the main characters and level only the stunts and at the same time not preparing you for that the main characters will leave? What a croc!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity View Post
And it had amazingly done voice acting, absolutely unheard of at the time.
And the OST man, how did you forget the OST?

/////////////

A good story can keep you interested. A good gameplay can keep you playing.
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Old 2010-01-26, 06:22   Link #39
Xion Valkyrie
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
The second has a hit-or-miss story (too many convinient events the characters can't prevent although their abilities dictate otherwise). The gameplay was much improved, becoming almost strategy/RPG. But the grinding... what a fail! As the story goes on, you lose all the story-driven characters. You are left with stunts that I had no reason to bother leveling. I reached a point where the epic-level cast was taken away from the team and I was left in a huge dungeon of uber monsters and just a few low-level drone characters (because I was releasing anyone becoming strong enough). What kind of a game would force you to neglect the main characters and level only the stunts and at the same time not preparing you for that the main characters will leave? What a croc!


And the OST man, how did you forget the OST?

/////////////

A good story can keep you interested. A good gameplay can keep you playing.
Yeah, VP was just EPIC win on all levels, which is why it's my favorite JRPG. However, even if the storyline was more lackluster, I'd still have played through it and enjoyed it, although the great storyline and character development for the A Ending definitely makes the whole package epic.

Regarding VP2, the game is quite a bit harder than VP1, and in a lot of aspects, really isn't for people who aren't willing to put in a lot of time and effort. The combat system is a lot more complex, in fact, it wasn't until I got into the bonus dungeon when I REALLY figured out how the combo system works regarding orbs and the optimum ways to keep your AP bar extended as long as possible in order to rack up more hits per combo string. I really did love how the game makes you really think about when to actually use an item and when you really need to get the hell out of that location you're at instead.

Regarding the characters, yeah it was kind of annoying to take away certain characters, but I actually didn't release anyone, so I always had a bunch of characters sitting back there. I also often rotated in new characters to get them at least the basic skills pretty often.
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Old 2010-01-26, 08:32   Link #40
Hope Estheim
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Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
I always think storyline is much more important than gameplay(maybe because I start playing game with RPG). No matter how much fun the gameplay is, I get bored after 5-6 hours playing, while a game that has a great storyline always compel me to keep playing...
I totally agree. I'm playing FFXIII now. Although the masses say its gameplay is terrible, I'm still playing it. Why? The storyline is extremely captivating (FINE I admit, I kinda emphatise with Hope.) (Oh and Lightning's sexy.)

That aside, datingsims sell for the same reason, think about it. Not that I've played any before. But what I hear is that they're just selling stories on CDs.
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