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Old 2010-01-26, 09:37   Link #41
DragoonKain3
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Uhh, dating sims sell because of...

1) art - need pretty girls
2) character - not how deep or complex the character is, but how likeable they are (read: how well they do the archetypes they fall on)

Pretty sure actual story is at the bottom of the list, from what I've played of them.


As for the topic itself, I guess it goes to show how big experiences go with your playing style. I keep hearing how people keep saying that a compelling story is what makes them keep playing, when I haven't seen one in an RPG in recent memory. Well, at least in comparison to what I'm used to in literature at least.
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Old 2010-01-26, 09:51   Link #42
MakubeX2
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In so far, and nobody makes a mention of Bioshock ? Not even when the sequeal hits a fortnight later ? That classic was almost a perfect blend of good gameplay and deep, abelit a bit abstract, philosophy.
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Old 2010-01-26, 10:09   Link #43
Nosauz
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I didn't find bioshock nearly as deep or abstract as you imply it to be. Bioshock is a great game, but the gameplay took away any tension from what the story was trying to do. I hate games where they introduce a moral meter out the sake of ticking that off the checklist. Games don't have to be a moral play, like honestly for the most part dieing over and over again but to have your enemies health stay the same just destroyed the entire initial tension that was there. I would say some of the BEST games that mixed gameplay(at the time it was the pinnacle) were old lucas arts point click adventures, although the gameplay forced you to think in a wierd way, the game was infinitely fun, to be specific, Grim Fandango, and Full throttle are just pure awesome.
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Old 2010-01-26, 10:16   Link #44
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
Uhh, dating sims sell because of...

1) art - need pretty girls
2) character - not how deep or complex the character is, but how likeable they are (read: how well they do the archetypes they fall on)

Pretty sure actual story is at the bottom of the list, from what I've played of them.
That actually makes me wonder which ones you've played...
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Old 2010-01-26, 10:34   Link #45
Nosauz
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
That actually makes me wonder which ones you've played...
for the most part, if you look at the volume of releases on getchu.com the most part is looking at bishoujo's and their appeal. I mean just look at all leaf games in the 2000s... pretty much focused on the girls, and the overarching storylines weren't nearly as good because they choose to focus on the combat system and girls. Hell for the most part when Arawyn, and Ice Man get it on with the girls it's just random and not pertaining to the story, as in it's not even integral to the story line that you get busy with the girls. Let's not forget every title made by illusion, frost, don't really have any story whatsoever. I mean come on, Ourboros, or sexy beach is not what i consider galge pinnacle of writing.
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Old 2010-01-26, 12:05   Link #46
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Dragon Age is interesting in that it's one of Bioware's most polished titles yet, but the story... notsomuch.

Basically if you take all the character and place names and replace them with Star Wars themes, you wouldn't really be able to tell Dragon Age from Knights of the Old Republic. Bioware is really bad about this, especially since Black Isle disintegrated. The Baldur's Gate series still remains my favorite Bioware titles, as a lot of the ambiguity and humor absent from later Bioware titles is very much present in the BG games (largely in part due to Black Isle's influence).

This is perhaps one of the reasons why I like Neverwinter Nights 2 and KOTOR2: The Sith Lords much more than their predecessors--Obsidian Entertainment is largely staffed by former Black Isle employees (specifically headed up by Chris Avellone, who was on the Planescape: Torment design team).
I too agree that in the end, while very polished and gameplay was good, the story in Dragon Age sort of petered out. Perhaps it's because they intend to create sequels out of it (which I hate), leaving the story rather open and ambiguous. Which means I still prefer KotOR's story over it. I've only done 1 playthrough of DA:O (albeit almost 100 hours), and I don't think I'll be doing another.

I never did really get a chance to play most of Black Isle's stuff, a pity. But I do definitely agree with you on certain aspects of KotOR 2 being better than 1. I really felt the gameplay was better, and the pacing was a hell of a lot better than the first. I still prefer the first's story though (mostly because the second one was a glitch fest).

I've got a question for everyone then. What do people think of Heavy Rain then? If you've ever played Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy, you'll know what the gameplay will sort of be like. Which makes that game a heavy story game. Are a lot of people looking forward to it?
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Old 2010-01-26, 13:13   Link #47
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MakubeX2 View Post
In so far, and nobody makes a mention of Bioshock ? Not even when the sequeal hits a fortnight later ? That classic was almost a perfect blend of good gameplay and deep, abelit a bit abstract, philosophy.
Bioshock tries too hard to be like System Shock 2 and fails. It's a decent game, but hardly the "instant classic" people make it out to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sphire View Post
I too agree that in the end, while very polished and gameplay was good, the story in Dragon Age sort of petered out. Perhaps it's because they intend to create sequels out of it (which I hate), leaving the story rather open and ambiguous. Which means I still prefer KotOR's story over it. I've only done 1 playthrough of DA:O (albeit almost 100 hours), and I don't think I'll be doing another.

I never did really get a chance to play most of Black Isle's stuff, a pity. But I do definitely agree with you on certain aspects of KotOR 2 being better than 1. I really felt the gameplay was better, and the pacing was a hell of a lot better than the first. I still prefer the first's story though (mostly because the second one was a glitch fest).
The biggest problem with The Sith Lords is that LucasArts forced Obsidian to release it before it was finished in order to meet a Christmas launch. The game hadn't been completed content-wise, much less playtesting. There are huge chunks of story and an entire planet missing from the game due to the time crunch, and the ending is almost wholly absent.

A group of modders was working on repairing the damage and fixing the missing ending and content (The Sith Lords Restoration Project) but apparently the mod has stalled and will not be continued.

This really irritates me because I was looking forward to it. I'm hoping to somehow get my hands on a leaked beta version from someone just so I can actually play it, as it was mostly complete with a few minor tweaks and bugfixes to finish.

What really threw KOTOR2 over its original for me was the fact that it's almost too dark and dystopic to be Star Wars. The first KOTOR is very much Star Wars, with the same kind of over-the-top, hot blooded cheesiness that marked the original trilogy. And while I do like that, KOTOR2 has a distinctly different flavor that reminds me heavily of Planescape: Torment and Fallout.

Plus KOTOR2 really went all out--by the time you reached Malachor V, you were a godly powerful Uberjedi that could clear entire rooms of bad guys in seconds. And you needed that much power. Malachor V was Nintendo Hard. =| I liked the characters much better as well, especially Kreia. She reminded me so much of Ravel Puzzlewell from PS:T.
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Old 2010-01-26, 13:26   Link #48
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
Uhh, dating sims sell because of...

1) art - need pretty girls
2) character - not how deep or complex the character is, but how likeable they are (read: how well they do the archetypes they fall on)

Pretty sure actual story is at the bottom of the list, from what I've played of them.


As for the topic itself, I guess it goes to show how big experiences go with your playing style. I keep hearing how people keep saying that a compelling story is what makes them keep playing, when I haven't seen one in an RPG in recent memory. Well, at least in comparison to what I'm used to in literature at least.
You've got to be REALLY picky with the eroge genre.... the 90% meh rule applies hard. But unless you go with something like Utawarerumono (tactical RPG eroge), items even as good as AIR or Kimikiss are basically just computer versions of the old "Choose Your Adventure" paperbacks (the ones where every 10 or 15 pages you made a choice and jumped to a different section of the book). The eroge genre could really use a bootkick into the 21st century.
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Old 2010-01-26, 13:55   Link #49
DragoonKain3
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Hmm... I was under the impression that dating sims does not necessarily translate into eroge, or even visual novels in general.

I'm talking about stuff like Tokimeki Memorial, Kimikiss, and the most recent popular one, Love Plus. In these type of games, overall plot is scrapped in favour of the 'chase' towards a girl of your choice, through statistics building and casual conversation with the girl. It's the one genre I would NOT look for a good story.
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Old 2010-01-26, 14:00   Link #50
Bonta Kun
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lol how The World God Only Knows puts it "10-hour streams of sentences isn't a game, it's a newspaper!"

Bioshock I also felt was trying to be like System Shock 2 and failed in that respect but it was still a decent game none the less.
Didn't quite capture that atmosphere SS2 had but then guess you could say they were going for something new of their own.
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Old 2010-01-26, 19:10   Link #51
Xion Valkyrie
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Parts of Bioshock were absolutely brilliant. However, the whole moral choices thing was pretty contrived, you're either good or evil, no in between.
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Old 2010-01-26, 23:45   Link #52
Zekori
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Red face

1) Character Development and Interaction > Story > Game Play
or
2) Character Development and Interaction > Game Play > Story

Basically so long as there's good character development in game it'll make a game much more enjoyable despite say a weak excuse story or game play. Without good character development and interaction then the game better have a pretty damn good story. I'd like to say the same about game play, but Star Ocean 4 pretty much proved to me otherwise. Some games can escape this rule for me sometimes, like FPS's or Action Games at time. But some FPS's had pretty great character interaction at times like Modern Warfare 2
Spoiler for Modern Warfare2:
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Old 2010-01-27, 00:29   Link #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zekori View Post
1) Character Development and Interaction > Story > Game Play
or
2) Character Development and Interaction > Game Play > Story

Basically so long as there's good character development in game it'll make a game much more enjoyable despite say a weak excuse story or game play. Without good character development and interaction then the game better have a pretty damn good story. I'd like to say the same about game play, but Star Ocean 4 pretty much proved to me otherwise. Some games can escape this rule for me sometimes, like FPS's or Action Games at time. But some FPS's had pretty great character interaction at times like Modern Warfare 2
Spoiler for Modern Warfare2:
I think I'll have to agree with this. I tend to favor well developed characters above everything else.

Like for instance, Tales of Symphonia, my #1 favorite game of all time. The story itself is cliche and fairly standard. But the characters are pure gold.
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Old 2010-01-27, 00:40   Link #54
SeijiSensei
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All my favorite games have reasonably strong stories, and the best of them have witty scripts. I've been a fan of Insomniac's games since I started playing Spyro the Dragon when my daughter was young. The first Ratchet & Clank game has probably the best script I've ever encountered; both the characters and the situations are hilarious (Ultimate Supreme Executive Chairman Drek is one of my all-time favorite game characters.) The R&C ganes for the PS3 aren't quite so entertaining, but you can only take a concept so far before it loses its originality.

Other than platformers, we mostly play JRPGs. Soon after buying the PS2, I picked up a copy of Final Fantasy X purely on rumor and was stunned as much by the elaborate story as by the graphics and game play. I've grown to detest random encounters, though, especially because there are just too damned many of them in most games.

The fact that the enemies appear on screen was just one of the charming features of Chrono Cross along with its complex plot, unique battle system, stunning graphics, and remarkable score. Yet the story is really what drives CC and puts it in my top tier. Not only is the plot a long and elaborate one, it, too, includes some very witty writing throughout. It also has one of the most remarkable plot turns of any game I've ever played.

Other favorites of mine are the first two Shadow Hearts games. I like the alternate-history approach of the stories, and the scripts are again some of the wittiest ones I've heard. Shadow Hearts I, though, showed me that story alone isn't sufficient. I found the battle system in that game rather repetitive and forced myself to complete it because of the story, not the game play. The system in II is much improved, and it remains among my favorite games.

Spoiler for if you've played SH I & II:

I think Xenosaga shows how failures in the story can severely damage what were otherwise pretty decent games. I really enjoyed the first installment, but when budgetary problems forced the developers to truncate their original plan of seven games down to three, the compression of the story line made the game itself less compelling. Even with a decent battle system, finishing Xenosaga II and especially III became more of a chore than an entertainment.

So, to sum up, I'll stick with a game with a strong plot even if I don't always enjoy the battle system, but it's the quality of the writing itself that matters most to me. The plot of Ratchet & Clank is the typical "fight the villain who wants to destroy the galaxy," but the writing puts this title into a class of its own.
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Old 2010-01-27, 01:58   Link #55
Nosauz
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Actually to my amazement, Crash bandicoot 1-3 had a really interesting story, before they turned it into the sonic of this generation. I mean I actually looked forward to playing crashbandicoot platformers because a) the gameplay was awesome b) the villians and settings were just awesome c) crash him self was a character.
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Old 2010-01-27, 02:44   Link #56
Irenicus
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
A group of modders was working on repairing the damage and fixing the missing ending and content (The Sith Lords Restoration Project) but apparently the mod has stalled and will not be continued.
My friend, my fellow Jedi-loving friend, see this you must.

That's right, somebody actually finished and released a full-scale restoration mod for KOTOR2. It is by no means truly "complete" -- whatever Obsidian was planning for Malachor V's massive levels, for example, will forever be lost, since they didn't actually even start the work for the most part -- but it is definitely worth your time.
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Old 2010-01-27, 03:47   Link #57
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Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
Hmm... I was under the impression that dating sims does not necessarily translate into eroge, or even visual novels in general.

I'm talking about stuff like Tokimeki Memorial, Kimikiss, and the most recent popular one, Love Plus. In these type of games, overall plot is scrapped in favour of the 'chase' towards a girl of your choice, through statistics building and casual conversation with the girl. It's the one genre I would NOT look for a good story.
Yeah, the visual novel guy at my local con is pretty adamant that dating sims and visual novels are distinct from one another.

The visual novel genre itself is really all over the board story wise, ranging from pure porn efforts to stuff like Umineko and Ever 17. But most are probably best classified as interactive fiction instead of games.

For some reason, I actually find it easier to get into VNs than RPGs... probably because when I'm really into a story, I don't like getting interrupted with grind sections.

As for the original topic, one of my favourite games story wise is No One Live Forever. It's been a while since I've had a game (as opposed to VN) I've played mainly for the story though.
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Old 2010-01-27, 04:53   Link #58
Keroko
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Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
Hmm... I was under the impression that dating sims does not necessarily translate into eroge, or even visual novels in general.
They are, but since most people tend to lump them together it can get confusing, hence my question. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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Old 2010-01-27, 20:04   Link #59
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Is a well-written story important for me in games?


My answer is no, absolutely not. Because some games are great because they ditch story and just go for sheer fun. Others are nice because they're very heavy on the story.

What is important is that the game has something, some element that doesn't have to be story, that makes it special. Chrono Trigger is super-special because of its epic story and awesome music. Gameplay-wise it was what is now considered standard final fantasy fare, so that's not one of the reasons why one would play that game.

On the other hand something like Torchlight. It's got a story but you can't call it a deep, well-thought-out one. However its gameplay is excellent; it takes the Diablo format and makes it deeper and more enjoyable.

Oblivion and Fallout 3: The stories in those games aren't all that spectacular either, and gameplay has plenty of flaws, but Bethesda is the only bunch in the world who make games like that, and both have that unique Bethesda touch.


No, story isn't important to me. It can make a game great, but it's not the only thing that can make a game great. If an epic story that was written with a level of mastery you'd find only once a decade was an absolute necessity, I'd be an EXTREMELY dissatisfied and bored person.



And to go further, story doesn't have to be extremely complex, character-driven epics either. Some stories are great because they aim for the mindless side of things, and often they excel so much that they become greater and more enjoyable than some deep, story-driven stuff.

I'm sure many have seen Guu. Not much of a story, but it is AWESOME(tm) because it knows what it's aim is, what its strength is, and makes all effort to convey and capitalize on them and hardly try to venture into areas that detract from the virtues of that particular story.
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Old 2010-01-27, 20:34   Link #60
Xion Valkyrie
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Originally Posted by Shinova View Post

What is important is that the game has something, some element that doesn't have to be story, that makes it special. Chrono Trigger is super-special because of its epic story and awesome music. Gameplay-wise it was what is now considered standard final fantasy fare, so that's not one of the reasons why one would play that game.
Well, when it came out, the gameplay was actually quite a step up from other JRPGs.
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