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Old 2010-01-27, 21:00   Link #61
roriconfan
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Without a story, the only reason I play the game is to finish it or collect all the items.
Without good gameplay, the only reason I play the game is to see what happens in the story.
Without both, I don't play it.
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Old 2010-01-28, 00:02   Link #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
My friend, my fellow Jedi-loving friend, see this you must.

That's right, somebody actually finished and released a full-scale restoration mod for KOTOR2. It is by no means truly "complete" -- whatever Obsidian was planning for Malachor V's massive levels, for example, will forever be lost, since they didn't actually even start the work for the most part -- but it is definitely worth your time.
Thank you for this.
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Old 2010-01-28, 00:09   Link #63
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
I think I'll have to agree with this. I tend to favor well developed characters above everything else.

Like for instance, Tales of Symphonia, my #1 favorite game of all time. The story itself is cliche and fairly standard. But the characters are pure gold.
Agreed as well [Except for the ToS part, which isn't my favorite game.]. I can't finish a game unless it has a good plot or unless I love the characters, and I'm usually able to trudge through mediocre plots if I love the characters. Really, the only games I ever play for solely gameplay are fighting games.
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Old 2010-01-29, 06:25   Link #64
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Is a well-written storyline important to you in gaming? Do you believe that games should strive to have more in-depth, immersive plots? Or, do you think that gameplay is of paramount importance and storyline is nothing more than useless window dressing?
A good story beats good gameplay any day. I've played games with seriously bad gameplay (see Riviera) just for the story, and I enjoy a game a lot more when the story is good (doesn't have to be innovative, but good characters are a must). Making games with good plot is tougher these days, since most ideas have been exhausted already, my favourite story is that of Shadow hearts and its sequel, Covenant. Romance and tragedy aside, it had a feeling of importance that takes the game to a different level. A different example would be the Legacy of Kain (blood omen/soul reaver/defiance) : definitely #1 on my list of absolutely awesome stories despite the very average gameplay that lasted until defiance came.
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Old 2010-01-29, 06:46   Link #65
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Ar Tonelico 1&2
I wouldn't bother finishing them if it weren't for the amazing concept of the story and the cast.

Armored Core 4
I was thrilled with the customization of the mecks and really kept hoping that the story will become good along the way. Then it ends... What a disappointment.
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Old 2010-01-29, 22:12   Link #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
A good story beats good gameplay any day. I've played games with seriously bad gameplay (see Riviera) just for the story, and I enjoy a game a lot more when the story is good (doesn't have to be innovative, but good characters are a must). Making games with good plot is tougher these days, since most ideas have been exhausted already, my favourite story is that of Shadow hearts and its sequel, Covenant. Romance and tragedy aside, it had a feeling of importance that takes the game to a different level. A different example would be the Legacy of Kain (blood omen/soul reaver/defiance) : definitely #1 on my list of absolutely awesome stories despite the very average gameplay that lasted until defiance came.
I'm pretty balanced when it comes to story vs. gameplay; unless it's of a type of game that doesn't lend itself well to a plot (i.e. Touhou Project), then of course gameplay is of utmost importance.

I love the story of Planescape: Torment but the gameplay is probably the worst of all Infinity Engine titles. On the other end of the spectrum, Icewind Dale II probably has the best gameplay of any Infinity Engine game, but a lukewarm, boring plot. Baldur's Gate II has the best balance between both, IMO.

And another issue--can you forgive buggy games if the plot is worth the frustration? Good examples would be Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords, Arcanum: Of Steamworks & Magick Obscura and Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines.
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Old 2010-01-29, 22:45   Link #67
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My opinion as an ex-JRPG fag is that if you want storyline go read a damn book (or watch some anime if you want the same style of stories, only way better 99% of the time).

Games are to be played, not to be watched like a movie. Most JRPGs are actually just extremely dumbed down strategy games with no complexity whatsoever and require little to no skill to beat other than grinding and the occasional potion.

Some of the most fun I've had in my life was with Eve Online, and that doesn't even have a story--it's not a particularly complex strategy game either. But then again, discovering the joys of games where you DO require a little bit of skill and :effort: to beat (shmups, 2D competitive fighters, most arcade games to be honest) might have made me a bit biased.
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Old 2010-01-29, 23:29   Link #68
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Eve Online bothered me because I advanced much faster the more often I didn't play... which seems sort of backwards.

I'm not terribly fond of jRPGs myself, as I'm a CRPG whore, especially Black Isle titles from the golden age of the CRPG (1997-2002). They tend to have more in the way of gameplay than their eastern counterparts.
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Old 2010-01-29, 23:45   Link #69
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Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie View Post
Well, when it came out, the gameplay was actually quite a step up from other JRPGs.
Indeed it was, but right now you wouldn't be going back to play that game for the gameplay. You'd be picking up that classic for its story.
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Old 2010-01-30, 05:40   Link #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight
My opinion as an ex-JRPG fag is that if you want storyline go read a damn book (or watch some anime if you want the same style of stories, only way better 99% of the time).
My opinion is that most JRPG-style fantasy anime are either mediocre or downright pathetic, with the exception of a very few number of titles.

So you know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic
Thank you for this.
Just a public service announcement.

Quote:
And another issue--can you forgive buggy games if the plot is worth the frustration? Good examples would be Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords, Arcanum: Of Steamworks & Magick Obscura and Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines.
Except it's a dilemma you don't have to answer at least for the examples you've raised, because when that happens it means somebody somewhere is already working on a bunch of unofficial patches and mods and bugfixes. Viva la PC.

Console games...eh, not so much. You get what you pay for.
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Old 2010-01-30, 05:45   Link #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
My opinion as an ex-JRPG fag is that if you want storyline go read a damn book (or watch some anime if you want the same style of stories, only way better 99% of the time).
This argument irritates me every single time I see it. A book isn't the same as a movie. A movie isn't the same as a book. Both of these aren't the same as a game. The experience is very different.
At least for me, my emotional involvement is the highest when I'm reading or playing something. It's NOT the same as reading or watching a story. If people don't like games with heavy story telling they should just avoid the ones advertising with their hour long cutscenes xD Just like I tend to avoid games with no or a dull story (when the genra calls for it).There's something that is called freedom of choice we all hold possession of

I do agree that there are games where a story is just teeth shattering. Mario, Zelda, Racers, Beat 'em ups ... they don't need a story. I hate it when I just wanna play but I get jumped at with dialogue and non sensical cutscenes. Let me get to the action!!
Beat em ups especially .. most of them try to have some story, but I really couldn't care less. I don't need a reason to beat up my opponent. I decided to do that when I inserted the disc.
Well to be fair, since there also people who enjoy story (or better; the background of their characters) in beat em ups .. the story telling in these games is very limited, but I would never demand more story telling in this genre. Please no xD

Shooter (ego or third person) are a grey zone imo. They don't need a story. Specially when they have amazing action. That's what it's about in their genre: the action. But; a plot adds a lot for me in the game experience. Of course it has to be balanced, because I don't want to be stroke to death by cutscenes, when I should be out shooting things.

Since I just finished it let me drag out Uncharted (1 + 2). The game as it is, was already immensely fun for me. Man vs Helicopter .. Helicopter vs Tank .. Tank vs Man .. you know these over the top fights where you just go WOA .
But the characters in their interaction during cutscenes AND the game itself added a lot to the gaming experience. Plus, it made finishing much more rewarding, because it made the epilogue much more amusing.The characters is what makes me remember Uncharted over other similar games. And I actually wanna play it more then once, what is rare for a game like that.

So ... (J)RPGs are my favorite genre. I'm the type who can't put up with an endless rpg unless I care at least a little for the characters. FF XII was amazingly made, but I still haven't finished it .. it was no fun for me. My emotional involvement was zero, so I had no patience for the vast eyploring the game had to offer.
Also I really like humour in games, and that often comes with story telling. Because the characters talk there. Or things like Wario Ware and Raving Rabbids that are funny by nature and need no words

For me the importance of a plot varies greatly with the genre and the game itself. Key point is 'for me'. Different tastes, different opinions. I have no problem with games that have zero story and are gameplay only. Fine in action, a killer for me in RPGs. I choose what I play. So I let others play what they want, too. Have fun with it, but please don't call everyone else an idiot for not having the same preference .

Games have a lot of potential in a lot of different ways. Why 'forbid' story telling or make it a must? Gameplay and story don't exclude one another. I think there's enough space for plot lovers and haters.
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Old 2010-01-30, 06:43   Link #72
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I have seen stories in games that beat most Hollywood blockbusters.
What kind of a game can you make out of Avatar?
And I am still waiting for a good game adaptation to anime. Thank God there is the Silent Hill movie that proves there is still hope.
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Old 2010-01-30, 12:58   Link #73
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Quote:
Eve Online bothered me because I advanced much faster the more often I didn't play... which seems sort of backwards.
Seems like you missed the point that training skills doesn't mean you're good at the game.

Skillpoints don't matter in Eve. You can be a 90m SP pilot who has been in the game since 2003 and hasn't seen an ounce of PVP in his life and you can lose your pimped-out faction failfit Navy Issue BS in the most retarded way to two 10m SP noobs in your first gatecamp. And it's not like it's a far-fetched scenario--it happens a lot, and I've been on the giving end of it quite a few times already.

Quote:
My opinion is that most JRPG-style fantasy anime are either mediocre or downright pathetic, with the exception of a very few number of titles.

So you know.
JRPG stories are nothing but a rehash of the usual anime themes. There's nothing new about them, really--and obviously, the first ones you play will leave the highest impact on you since it's the first time you're exposed to such a style of storytelling. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking they're different--sure, the aesthetic themes they touch might not be used that much in anime most of times--but still, the basic stories and characters are rehashed from the same-old, same-old anime stereotypes.

I was a Final Fantasy fan and a JRPG fan in general. I clocked the hell out of them when I was a kid. But then, all of sudden (coincidentally with me starting taking anime more seriously), I seemed to find any new JRPG I played utterly boring and, most of the time, a complete waste of hours of play.

I'm not saying you need to all drop your JRPGs, or that you all suck, or something like that--I'm just saying that since discovering the joy of good gameplay (and I'm not talking about the bullshit pimped out by most of the gaming media), a linear story in a linear game is as inconsequential to the final objective of the game--which is to challenge me, and to draw my entertainment from it.

Quote:
A book isn't the same as a movie. A movie isn't the same as a book. Both of these aren't the same as a game. The experience is very different.
What's the difference between a JRPG and a movie? The fact that you need to press X?
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Old 2010-01-30, 13:51   Link #74
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I didn't play EO for very long. I figured like most MMORPGs it was a "best gear/spec wins" situation. Interesting that I was wrong, but the slow pace of things really did bother me. I have a lot more fun playing Freespace 2 and Freelancer mods.
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Old 2010-01-30, 17:42   Link #75
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Quote:
I didn't play EO for very long. I figured like most MMORPGs it was a "best gear/spec wins" situation.
Obviously, there is a point where SP starts to matter, but 95% of the fights in Eve are won not by doing 4% more damage by training Surgical Strike V, but by outsmarting your opponent. After all, it IS a strategy game.

Of course, that means the longer you've played the more advantage you have--but that is due to the actual, real-life experience you accumulate by playing the game, not just numbers going up.
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Old 2010-01-31, 00:31   Link #76
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Obviously, there is a point where SP starts to matter, but 95% of the fights in Eve are won not by doing 4% more damage by training Surgical Strike V, but by outsmarting your opponent. After all, it IS a strategy game.

Of course, that means the longer you've played the more advantage you have--but that is due to the actual, real-life experience you accumulate by playing the game, not just numbers going up.
That's why I tend to play competitive games where there is some semblance of equal footing. I mean that's why WoW is fun, from a pvp standpoint, anybody can beat anybody, and if you take pvp seriously gear in the end isn't a big factor, unless you can't get the seasons weapon, and much like WoW fps do that to, they equalize all players and let skill over luck play a factor. That kind of gameplay is fun when a game is balanced, fun and competitive, Also CS with it's money management aspect also made playing highly addictive because success predicated what weapons you could buy and killing people with money would reward you. These gameplay mechanics are so well implemented that people still play these games although wow isn't that old considering it's constant patching.

I do have to say one of the BEST platformers I have ever played that melded gameplay and story is defintiely Pyschonauts. The game is just pure genius and unique. I guess that's why I stuck through Brutal Legend, it's ok Tim Schafer I still love you.

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Old 2010-02-01, 21:05   Link #77
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@WanderingKnight

Dude, I hate to break this to you, but it's only your opinion, don't try to force it on other people. What you're saying, and how you're saying it makes you come off as a complete elitist dickhead.
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Old 2010-02-01, 21:40   Link #78
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Dude, I hate to break this to you, but it's only your opinion, don't try to force it on other people. What you're saying, and how you're saying it makes you come off as a complete elitist dickhead.
What if I am?

Seriously, though, whatever anyone says is their own opinion. It's kinda tautologous to point that out.

Still, no one has answered my all-important question:

Quote:
What's the difference between a JRPG and a movie? The fact that you need to press X?
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Old 2010-02-01, 22:02   Link #79
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
What if I am?

Seriously, though, whatever anyone says is their own opinion. It's kinda tautologous to point that out.

Still, no one has answered my all-important question:
You're being extremely narrowminded here. Seriously the only JRPG that uses the dry old turn base battle system is the final fantasy series, which I personally believe is boring. It's why I don't play it anymore.

But there's wide varieties available in the genre such as the "Tales of" series which uses a active, fast pace combat system.

There's also monster hunter, star ocean, etc...

You're one of those "JRPG = Final Fantasy" people, so really, you should just drop this argument since this argument is completely pointless. All you had to do is say "No, I don't care for stories in games"
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Old 2010-02-01, 22:07   Link #80
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No, I specifically asked this question:

Quote:
What's the difference between a JRPG and a movie? The fact that you need to press X?
...which is completely related to the question the OP asked.

Quote:
You're being extremely narrowminded here. Seriously the only JRPG that uses the dry old turn base battle system is the final fantasy series, which I personally believe is boring. It's why I don't play it anymore.
When did I talk about "turn based" combat? It has nothing to do with my argument that JRPG game mechanics are dull and boring, and quickly turn into a grindfest. Most of the "action" JRPGs I've played (yes, that includes Star Ocean, Tales, [insert generic JRPG here]) eventually turned into either mashing buttons or letting the CPU fight for you. Which is not my definition of "complex" game mechanics at all.

You should really play games with complex mechanics. The Touhou shmups, for example, are pretty easy to pick up even for someone who hasn't touched a shmup in their life and are a good example of well-thought out mechanics with complex scoring systems.
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