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Old 2010-03-05, 11:32   Link #1
White Manju Bun
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Character Discussion - Orihara Izaya

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Old 2010-03-05, 19:42   Link #2
Natsuki Hyuga
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I feel bad for making the first post an argument post but in lieu to not derail the episode thread further...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Spoiler for Novel spoilers about Izaya:
.
This is where your choice of word is wrong: Killing implies that he has the motive of wanting that people die and usually by one's own hand. But as far as I know, he has yet and probably will not have the motive to wish for someone's death. Maybe except to Shizuo though.

And for what it is, if his speech to Rio was taken as the basis, then he doesn't really act as a proxy for the suicide.

Again, he just hastens (not putting another cause, at least not in the intentional part. For me.) and steel the suiciders' attempt by telling his honest opinion on their face. Wouldn't it be the same with the girls (taking the manga as basis here!), with the only difference is that Rio (and the three other suiciders) chose to do the suicide while the girls finally cracked and don't want to die? Letting people die # killing people, if you might want to know, as harsh and twisted that sounds.

Also the last thing of all, I don't think he has the smallest amount of intention to coerce them not to die in the manga (as implied by your saying he "couldn't" let them die). Both of manga and anime has his interest to humanity pointed so high that it's abnormal in respective scenes. Yet you describe as if him in the manga/novel has some 'good' personality in a sense. Not quite for me by the way.

Also I will not argue about the novel. I'm planning to finish the anime first then read the novel later. (as expected, I pludged through until chapter 2 though, thanks to my curiosity and enjoyment ) And it would seem our view as what is taken as 'killing' and motives for his actions seems to be different, so it might be good to agree to disagree in those term~
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Old 2010-03-05, 20:41   Link #3
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natsuki Hyuga View Post
I feel bad for making the first post an argument post but in lieu to not derail the episode thread further...

This is where your choice of word is wrong: Killing implies that he has the motive of wanting that people die and usually by one's own hand. But as far as I know, he has yet and probably will not have the motive to wish for someone's death. Maybe except to Shizuo though.

And for what it is, if his speech to Rio was taken as the basis, then he doesn't really act as a proxy for the suicide.

Again, he just hastens (not putting another cause, at least not in the intentional part. For me.) and steel the suiciders' attempt by telling his honest opinion on their face. Wouldn't it be the same with the girls (taking the manga as basis here!), with the only difference is that Rio (and the three other suiciders) chose to do the suicide while the girls finally cracked and don't want to die? Letting people die # killing people, if you might want to know, as harsh and twisted that sounds.

Also the last thing of all, I don't think he has the smallest amount of intention to coerce them not to die in the manga (as implied by your saying he "couldn't" let them die). Both of manga and anime has his interest to humanity pointed so high that it's abnormal in respective scenes. Yet you describe as if him in the manga/novel has some 'good' personality in a sense. Not quite for me by the way.

Also I will not argue about the novel. I'm planning to finish the anime first then read the novel later. (as expected, I pludged through until chapter 2 though, thanks to my curiosity and enjoyment ) And it would seem our view as what is taken as 'killing' and motives for his actions seems to be different, so it might be good to agree to disagree in those term~
My point is that in the novels, Izaya rang up Celty to make sure the girls went home safely. He didn't have to do that; but he did it, because Izaya didn't have the guts to be responsible for anybody's death.

You can say "on, but it's okay if Izaya just convince someone to kill themselves", but Izaya isn't like that. He is not in denial of what he does, if he tried to make someone kill themselves he would admit to being responsible. This is why the anime Izaya and novel Izaya are different.

Izaya is a horrible humanbeing, but in the novels he admits that is what he is. This is why the anime changes made him far more irresponsible and evil.
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Old 2010-03-05, 21:09   Link #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
My point is that in the novels, Izaya rang up Celty to make sure the girls went home safely. He didn't have to do that; but he did it, because Izaya didn't have the guts to be responsible for anybody's death.

You can say "on, but it's okay if Izaya just convince someone to kill themselves", but Izaya isn't like that. He is not in denial of what he does, if he tried to make someone kill themselves he would admit to being responsible. This is why the anime Izaya and novel Izaya are different.

Izaya is a horrible humanbeing, but in the novels he admits that is what he is. This is why the anime changes made him far more irresponsible and evil.
So in the end our opinion on him is affected by of comparison to the novel. As a person who have not read the novel, I can safely say that Izaya is by far not evil, particularly since by my definition, evil in his manipulation would require him to have negative motivations-at the rate he is, he is still a hateful character, not evil. Irresponsible, he may be, but he has yet to struck me like that.

And might I ask,are you reading the translated snippets/chapters or the full novel? Since I found it's pretty hard to believe that deducing his actions just from reading one or two snippets/chapters about him can lead to such conclusion. Not meaning negatively, but if it were me, I wouldn't be able to deduce him from only one or two chapter of novel only.
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Old 2010-03-05, 21:18   Link #5
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natsuki Hyuga View Post
So in the end our opinion on him is the affected by of comparison to the novel. As a person who have not read the novel, I can safely say that Izaya is by far not evil, particularly since by my definition, evil in his manipulation would require him to have negative motivations-at the rate he is, he is still a hateful character, not evil. Irresponsible, he may be, but he have yet to struck me like that.
Negative motivation?
What is it that you need?

Spoiler for novel spoilers:
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Old 2010-03-05, 21:37   Link #6
Natsuki Hyuga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Negative motivation?
What is it that you need?

Izaya wants to enjoy life. And he enjoys life by making other people miserable. Suffering of others is his one and only joy, and you think that's not a negative motivation?

*SNIP FOR SPOILER QUOTE*
What I meant by negative motivation isn't exactly what Izaya did. 'He enjoys life by making people miserable' isn't what I get from him, 'he enjoys life because humans are such interesting living beings, and it's interesting how far I can manipulate them in my hands' is. And by far, I do not see suffering of others is his joy. More like... Humans acting as he has predicted. Again, I have too little to be able to define his character accordingly--the series makes him a big enigma except to Shizuo at this point.

I connote negative motivation when his motivation is far, far worse has strong implications that he wants to mess other people's life rather than something general like "Manipulating for LULZ". Which by the way, I haven't even see his true motivation (I personally don't believe that he just manipulate for fun only at this moment, seriously. If not why his interest to Mikado involvement highly makes him in joy?). I would change my view to him if it's needed when there is more revealed about him though and put my view this moment at rest.

At the rate he is in, again, I can only see him as a hateful (as in, being hated by people) than evil. But again, this might be our difference in opinion and definition about evil.

I'm sorry but put novel spoilers on spoiler quote! I couldn't even read more when you mention Shingen in your post.

P.S: I will end the argument here, since my knowledge of Izaya is limited up until episode 9, and I admit that he still remains a big lovable asshole of enigma to me. I call my instinct at this moment, but all Izaya has revealed was so little of himself that I can actually say that my arguments was so full of assumptions of my view to him!
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Old 2010-03-05, 22:09   Link #7
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As stated in opening post, spoilers are allowed but they must be behind tags.
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Old 2010-03-06, 02:10   Link #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Spoiler for novel spoilers:
I've read six of the novels in Japanese, and couldn't disagree with either of these statements more.
Spoiler for Novel spoilers:
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Old 2010-03-06, 02:24   Link #9
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Old 2010-03-06, 09:04   Link #10
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I haven't read the novels so I have no idea about Izaya's motivations which makes him the most intriguing character for me (not necessarily a favorite). I guess after episode 9 I know he isn't human but I still don't know why he does the things he does. It seems he does it purely out of enjoyment but I wonder if there is more to it. Anyways I can't wait for his character episode.
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Old 2010-03-06, 12:33   Link #11
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Old 2010-03-06, 12:45   Link #12
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So far, from my view, novel/manga Izaya seems a bit more nuttier than his anime counter-part.....but I haven't gotten so far in the novel/manga to begin with so I could totally be wrong about that.

Either way, I like his character. He's not someone I would admire but his way of actions and plannings intrigues me alot.
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Old 2010-03-06, 18:11   Link #13
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Originally Posted by BigFire View Post
Spoiler:
Spoiler for characters?:
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Old 2010-03-07, 04:29   Link #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Negative motivation?
What is it that you need?

Spoiler for novel spoilers:
So your opinion on Izaya is defined by Simon's analysis?In other words,your opinion on him is based on a subjective camera.That's the easiest way of knowing a character:by taking everything for granted.That's a common stereotype in anime/manga...If a moment has the right amount of intensity or if the there's a decent amount of buildup till that point we tend to believe that that moment is a moment of revelation when all truth is spoken,when somebody with a subjective pov speakes the ultimate truth.That's not how it works.Even if all the characters express an opinion about Izaya,it doesn't mean it's the supreme truth.If a narrator that is Not a character expresses an opinion about Izaya,then we'll be bound to believe it.Also,action-oriented characterization can also lie about a character's true nature.You cannot say ''evil is evil'' simply because good and evil are relative terms.If a character says ''Izaya is evil'' it may be true or it may be false.If Izaya says ''Izaya is evil'' it may be true or it may be false.If a narrator that is not a character says ''Izaya is evil'' then this is almost 100% true.I assume that you read the novel...Is there any time when a non-character narrator appears?I assume there is...Well then,assuming there is...Did he said something about a character's true nature?I was kind of annoyed that you speak about Izaya as if you know everything about him and I don't want to see that someone puts a label on a character based on a subjective pov.I assume that there is a lot information about Izaya in the novel(wich I haven't read) wich made you say that he's a ''lonely low-life'' and I assume that that information is objective.Knowing and understanding a character is a complex process wich can't be done just by believing every subjective pov.Well,I don't know much about Izaya and you probably know a lot more about.My statements are based just on the 9 episodes I've seen and on anni_fiesta's entries and my statement are not necessarily about Izaya...
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Old 2010-03-07, 07:42   Link #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I haven't read the novels so I have no idea about Izaya's motivations which makes him the most intriguing character for me (not necessarily a favorite). I guess after episode 9 I know he isn't human but I still don't know why he does the things he does. It seems he does it purely out of enjoyment but I wonder if there is more to it. Anyways I can't wait for his character episode.
It is entirely possible that Izaya did everything out of enjoyment. Any visit online to any forum will allow you to meet half-a-dozen individuals who's singular goal in life is to make other people's lives difficult. We got a word for that; Trolls.

There are so many trolls in real life, that I have no trouble believing that Izaya is one such person in the anime. These kinds of people are not exactly rare.
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Old 2010-03-07, 13:59   Link #16
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Originally Posted by Renchan View Post
Spoiler for characters?:
when did i miss that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I guess after episode 9 I know he isn't human but I still don't know why he does the things he does. It seems he does it purely out of enjoyment but I wonder if there is more to it. Anyways I can't wait for his character episode.
izaya isn't human? i think he is - it was something he was just stating out of excitement?

izaya and shizuo are the two top characters in DRRR for me!

izaya's creepiness is just love!
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Old 2010-03-07, 14:19   Link #17
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izaya isn't human? i think he is - it was something he was just stating out of excitement?
Yeah someone else mentioned that I could be taking his use of "humans" the wrong way. That he could have just been speaking in general terms not necessarily saying he wasn't human. Although I think it's entirely possible with this series that Izaya could be something supernatural I probably did jump the gun a little.
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Old 2010-03-08, 09:39   Link #18
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Izaya Orahira is the person why i like this series so much!

I really admire him being the mastermind. He is my rolemodel.
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Old 2010-03-08, 10:04   Link #19
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Izaya resonates with people so powerfully, I think, because he is a fluid being, or at least seems to be. He moves between the various 'worlds' of Ikebukuro, between spheres of personal influence and between his own interests with ease. I know many people just took that cellphone-stomping in the third episode as him just being a nut, but I actually felt like what he said about making it his hobby and then it not being his hobby was pretty indicative of his 'fluid' nature.

He's sort of one step above the mastermind archetype in that he certainly could and has orchestrated some significant manipulations, but he's not put out of his comfort zone when he's acting without a plan. Again, fluidity: he can switch from planning to improvisation expertly.

I also motion that the subject title be changed to "Character Discussion - Iiiiiiiiizaaaaaaaayaaaaaaaa!"
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Old 2010-03-08, 10:41   Link #20
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