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Old 2004-03-11, 13:35   Link #1
Magus
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Question Edo Tensei, Shimigami and Yondaime [Anime Spoilers]

I lurk around these walls (threads) fairly often, reading (too much, actually, for I'm not a Naruto manga reader, but still... oh well :P), but, as you can see, not posting. I've watched up to Naruto ep.74.

Well, something got me thinking some days ago. There are two issues basically:

1. Who was the sacrifice for Yondaime back when Orochimaru used Edo Tensei in the fight against Sandaime? The first answer that comes to my mind is Dosu (team mate of Kin and Zaku). However, a sacrifice tends to mean something alive at the time being killed in honor of something else (or something - lots of somethings here ), usually in some kind of ritual. Dosu was supposedly killed by Gaara, and if that's indeed so, I'd find it odd if Oro took his body and was going to use it just like that, despite the fact it was already dead.

2. If Yondaime's soul was inside Shimigami's stomach, does that mean Edo Tensei is capable of stealing souls from it? Or would Oro's ignorance of what happened in the Kyuubi incident make his attempt at summoning Yondaime fail regardless of Sandaime's interference, for the soul being summoned could never actually make its way into the coffin? I fear we'll never know that...
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Old 2004-03-11, 13:42   Link #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magus
I lurk around these walls (threads) fairly often, reading (too much, actually, for I'm not a Naruto manga reader, but still... oh well :P), but, as you can see, not posting. I've watched up to Naruto ep.74.

Well, something got me thinking some days ago. There are two issues basically:

1. Who was the sacrifice for Yondaime back when Orochimaru used Edo Tensei in the fight against Sandaime? The first answer that comes to my mind is Dosu (team mate of Kin and Zaku). However, a sacrifice tends to mean something alive at the time being killed in honor of something else (or something - lots of somethings here ), usually in some kind of ritual. Dosu was supposedly killed by Gaara, and if that's indeed so, I'd find it odd if Oro took his body and was going to use it just like that, despite the fact it was already dead.

2. If Yondaime's soul was inside Shimigami's stomach, does that mean Edo Tensei is capable of stealing souls from it? Or would Oro's ignorance of what happened in the Kyuubi incident make his attempt at summoning Yondaime fail regardless of Sandaime's interference, for the soul being summoned could never actually make its way into the coffin? I fear we'll never know that...
1. The sacrifices were Kin and Zaku, Dosuīs teammates.
EDIT: Sry didnīt get, that you meant Yondaime^^ Perhaps he killed a Leaf Nin or someone else... Itīs a pity that he didnīt choose Kabuto

2. Donīt know this... I think he couldnīt summon him because of Shimigami.
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Old 2004-03-11, 14:06   Link #3
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No one knows if Orochimaru would be able to summon the Yondaime. If he did so, he would need a sacrifice to give him a material body. Dosu was already dead, so he couldn't be used as a sacrifice anymore. As you pointed out in your own post, Magus-san

If the theory of the souls eaten by the Death God can't be summoned back (which I think, Orochimaru used the Yondaime summoning just as a decoy to make the Sandaime waste Chakra. In the other hand, as we've seen in their fight, the Sandaime said "... I was able to stop the 3rd one (the Yondaime soul)"; which may mean the souls can be summoned back from the Death God's stomach. I think it's more logical that souls can indeed be summoned back from the Death God's stomach, since the 3rd, the one who knows all Leaf jutsu (including the Edo Tensei, obviously- at least he knows how the jutsu works), wouldn't even try to stop the "3rd one" if he knew the soul can't be summoned back from Death God's stomach.

As for which sacrifice Orochimaru would probably use, I would probably be any ordinary soldier of his. Anyways, we'll never know which person Orochimaru would make as a sacrifice to give the summoned Yondaime's soul a material body. If the souls eaten by the Death God can be really summoned back, obviously.

Also, Orochimaru isn't ignorant of the fact that the Yondaime died performing the Shiki Fuujin and sealing Kyuubi's soul within Naruto. He knows that, as well as it's actually Naruto who holds the Kyuubi's soul.

PS. Good to find another brazilian member. I'm from Brazil too ^^
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Old 2004-03-11, 14:19   Link #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magus
...
This is one of the great unanswered questions in the story. We dont know what happened to Yondaime's soul after he sealed the Kyubi (is it in Naruto or with Shimigami?), and we also dont know whether Orochimaru would have been able to summon his soul (being as it should in theory be seal somewhere or other), and if Oro was able to summon the soul, what happened when Sandaime blocked it? Is it now stuck in limbo?

I suppose we'll never know. But thats just great for discussion
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Old 2004-03-11, 14:30   Link #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magus
1. Who was the sacrifice for Yondaime back when Orochimaru used Edo Tensei in the fight against Sandaime? The first answer that comes to my mind is Dosu (team mate of Kin and Zaku). However, a sacrifice tends to mean something alive at the time being killed in honor of something else (or something - lots of somethings here ), usually in some kind of ritual. Dosu was supposedly killed by Gaara, and if that's indeed so, I'd find it odd if Oro took his body and was going to use it just like that, despite the fact it was already dead.
he never summoned the yondaime.
it was the 1st and 2nd.

Kin/Zaku were sacrificed (just got that now) (after watching anime)
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Old 2004-03-11, 14:58   Link #6
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yes hobobagans.. he knows that,, what he is asking is that, it appears that he tried to summon the 4th as well, remember the other coffin that the 3rd stoped, he was asking who was the sacrifice for that coffin.. but it is 1 of the unanswered questions ..... but hey was it the 4th he was summoning??? what did it say on the coffin ? never said he was tryin to summon the 4th , even though it seems pretty obvious thats what it was haha, but does any1 know what was on those coffins?
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Old 2004-03-11, 15:34   Link #7
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Yeah Oro tried to summon the 4th, it was written the 4th on the coffin.
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Old 2004-03-11, 15:38   Link #8
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The kanji on the 3rd coffin is yon...which means four. So it's obvious it was the 4th hokage he was trying to summon. As for the sacrifice, *shurgs* who knows. Could have been just a misc. Sound genin for all we know.

EDIT: Looks like Hunter beat me.
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Old 2004-03-11, 20:10   Link #9
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Cool

Ok! Here is what I think. Orochimaru sacrificed Kin and Zaku because they became useless. They both lost in the preliminaries, upon doing that I'm sure they were no long of any use to him other then for a sacrifice. But... If you remember, Sasuke also fought a Nin under Orochimaru in the preliminaries. That is the only person that would come to mind. Like the others he served his purpose and then he got sacrificed. Makes sense right?

I kinda agree with you Vicious but not completely.
Ok, now about the Death God's belly. There is a very grey area around this subject. So I will try to do my best to answer and also answer any questions that may arise atferward.This whole technique has some holes in it so bare with me.

"Those who have their soul sealed with this technique can never go to heaven, and instead suffer inside the Death God's stomach. The souls of the sealer and the sealed are intertwined in hate and are forever locked in combat." Those are the words of the 3rd as he begins to rip Orochimaru's soul out. Now you have to ask yourself... " Ok if you use this technique and your soul as the sealer and Orochimaru's soul as the sealed are going to be in the Death God's stomach enternaly locked in combat, why is it that the 4th used the technique and the Deamon Fox Kyuubi isn't inside of the Death God's stomach too. And if they are interwinded why isn't the 4th inside Naruto? What do the seals for the 3rd and Orochimaru go onto?". If you think about it no matter how long we talk about it no real answers to all questions untill more information about it is revealed. With each question comes a whole slu of senarios. I'll list a few

1.} The 4th is in the Deamon God's stomach alone... because Kyuubi has no soul? And you can summon a soul from his belly because as you saw he did bring the coffin containing his soul up even if it didn't open.

2.} The 4th is some how in Naruto. Naruto just hasn't found him yet... Or even is Naruto is his own soul mixxed with the 4th. The coffin Orochimaru pulled up was empty.

etc.. etc... (I have so much more)

And In all of them one thing throws it all off. Some where a inconstistance takes place. Kyuubi and the 4th should be together. Orochimaru shouldn't have have been able to pull up that coffin. Why is the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd going to the belly of the Death God and when the 4th did it he sealed the souls to a body? The area is again just way to Grey to actually answer the question to satisfactory.

And ask me a question I have more info I just don't wanna type right now...


But that's just my 2 cents.....
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Old 2004-03-11, 20:17   Link #10
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is it really so hard to understand that the fourth put the kyuubi inside of Naruto, and then gave his sould to the Death God as the sacrifice for summoning him? i mean, its really not THAT hard to understand.... seems ppl just dont pay enough attention
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Old 2004-03-11, 21:05   Link #11
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this has been roughly answered and i accept this explanation. the main reason why kyuubi wasn't in the death god's soul is because the death god couldnt eat him. kyuubi is immortal which was mention. that is why he seal it within a human. as we all see, kyuubi is very much alive in naruto.

i think orochimaru was able to summon the 4th from the death god's belly and the 3rd stop him.
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Old 2004-03-11, 21:28   Link #12
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nothing says that Kyuubi is immortal, dont make stuff up, even the Kyuubi is afraid of dieing, which is why he keeps Naruto alive by healing him/givin chakra
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Old 2004-03-11, 21:57   Link #13
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so what happened to the 1st and 2nd hokage's soul? it looks like it was sealed in the kage buunshins. do they suffer in the death god as well? or could the 3rd hokge make kage buushins with the chakra of the 1st and 2nd? kinda like naruto with kyuubi
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Old 2004-03-11, 22:24   Link #14
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Smile

Hmmm... I suppose the souls of the first two Hokages were condemned to imprisonment inside Shimigami's stomach, or the Third wouldn't have felt so sorry for sealing them (just defeating the bodies wasn't heartwrenching for him at all).


Nice, Vicious. One thing to keep in mind: if Edo Tensei can "free" souls from Shimigami's stomach, I believe it'd likely be silly to assume Edo Tensei is so unique that there can be no other jutsu capable of achieving that feat as well, especially considering the Naruto world is rather vast and almost overflowing ( ) with jutsus. If this is all true, the whole talk about how the souls are "eternally locked in combat" inside Shimigami will turn out to be "unreliable/flawed information".
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Old 2004-03-11, 23:57   Link #15
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didnt the guy that sasuke faught , DIe ???? i thought sasuke killed him, and just for pure sake of arguement and to be slightly devils advocate... kyuubi said that he gave naruto that chakra for basically having the balls to go down there n talk to him
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Old 2004-03-12, 09:09   Link #16
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Kyubi at that time gave Naruto chakra because he had the guts to blackmail him by insinuating that if Naruto dies Kyubi dies as well so Kyubi fears death, besides if Kyubi was immortal there's no way in hell he would give his chakra to Naruto he would want Naruto to die as fast as possible so he could be released.
The reason why the 4th sealed Kyubi inside Naruto and didn't took his soul with him remains a mistery, but i think that Kyubi prevented that in some way we are talking about one of the strongest youma's so almost anything is possible.
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