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Old 2011-01-14, 20:34   Link #221
Guardian Enzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
It may seem alright now, though give it a few more episodes and anime only watchers will be wanting to go read what was missed.
That would hardly be a bad result, would it?
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Old 2011-01-14, 21:10   Link #222
Simon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CWW View Post
Aside from all the character introductions (or lack thereof), at various points I did not know who was crossdressing anymore. Well, besides when it was shown.
Kaoru Chujo has posted a handy character and seiyū page that might help.

Spoiler for Another source if you don't mind spoilers:
Quote:
I'm also confused who rejected who exactly. From the flashback in the middle of the episode it looked like the tall lead (I'm just going to call her that since the names are drawing a blank) got rejected, but then at the end the short lead said she rejected him. Or maybe I just can't tell the voices apart.
Spoiler for Explanation from episode 1, minimal manga references:
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Old 2011-01-14, 21:40   Link #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
You know, what strikes me about the comments so far is this. The manga readers are bemoaning how the non-manga readers are going to be completely lost. The non-manga readers are generally saying, "I understood what was happening without much of a problem". I think the reality is that the skipped chapters are a much bigger issue for the manga readers - because they know what they're missing.
I agree. It's the same when an opening is supposedly "spoilerific" but it's always the manga readers getting upset about it - and then they're the ones who end up spoiling the viewers
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Old 2011-01-14, 23:23   Link #224
MeoTwister5
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When I started the manga, I didn't know who was a girl or boy myself. Personally I think that was a good thing: It puts into focus that the degree of androgyny that exists between the sexes is so close enough that at times you never really know which is which, validating Yoshino and Nitorin's intentions against the assumption of strict gender roles, clothing, stereotypes etc. How can you say who should be a girl and who should be a girl and who should be a boy when you can't tell the difference?
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Old 2011-01-14, 23:30   Link #225
Bonta Kun
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For me the manga never really stood out as amazing, a great nice read sure but not exactly exciting but the anime started out very nicely, great even but again I feel it's missing something.
Like others say probably the best this season so far, altho not particularly my favorite, I do think this will as a anime be the best anime this season but my favorite? that depends if it can really grab hold of me later.

Well I will say one thing bloody hell it looks amzaing! That is some sweet animation.
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Old 2011-01-15, 01:38   Link #226
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
The non-manga readers are generally saying, "I understood what was happening without much of a problem".
Observing and understanding are different things entirely. For example, these events:

In the beginning we observe a student teasing two other people based on rumor. This angers a girl who makes a scene and then leaves the room. Why is she so angry? An observer would assume it is because she's friends with the other two. Someone who understands the character knows there's a second reason behind it...and that the outburst also fits in with the personality of the character.

We see Takatsuki awestruck by the girl showing up in a boys uniform. An observer might assume it is because of her own feelings of wanting to be a boy. Someone who understands the character knows there is more to it than that, and the reason is related to the other main character, Shuu, and how they each ponder their own genders.

We see Takatsuki talking with a woman in a diner. Who is this woman? Why is she important? There's an entire back story missing that is extremely important for this character and how it relates to Shuu and Takatsuki. It also leads up to one of the more emotional events in the story, the exchange diary, which sets up a lot of exposition and tone for the chapters being adapted.

The modeling thing that was mentioned so casually? Yeah that's actually important too, especially when it comes to the girl with the phone.

There's more, but my point is that by skipping the earlier chapters non-manga readers will not understand a lot of the, at least in my opinion, very important context and subtext involving the cast and how they grow up. It is possible that through flashbacks much of this will be explained, but there's only so much you can cover in a flashback and it eats into the time you have to cover future chapters. If you spend too much time explaining things you also risk losing audience interest, and if you're going to spend time on flashbacks it would make more sense to have simply been more linear in story progression to begin with.

Sorry, I just don't agree with the assessment that they picked it up in a logical place. Logical would mean skipping irrelevant stuff to bring you relevant stuff. I see no logic in skipping a third of a story that hasn't even ended yet. It's like someone making a movie based on a popular book with 100 chapters but only doing chapters 20-40 and then trying to explain to people who've never read the book what is going on.

It is entirely possible to enjoy something by simply jumping into random points....heck I do that all the time. However I'm also rather methodical when it comes to exploring things I enjoy. I'll spend the time to hunt down anything relevant to my interests, and I know that's simply not how many people operate. For most anime, they're one and done, that is to say people will watch it once, pass judgment, and move on.

Anyway, I have a lot of praise for the first episode...I'm merely expressing my sadness that they didn't start from the beginning. If people liked the first episode enough to watch more, great. If they liked it enough to read the manga too, even better. It really is a good story, and one of the few fictional stories I've seen on the topic that approaches it with seriousness and maturity.
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Old 2011-01-15, 01:52   Link #227
BBOvenGuy
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Count me among the non-manga readers who didn't have a problem with the first episode. It was a heck of a lot less disorienting than all the stuff you've got to digest in the opening minutes of Fractale, which I watched right before it.

Did things happen that refer to stuff I don't know about from the past? Sure. But that's true for the people you meet in real life, isn't it? Doing that here gives the characters a depth they wouldn't have if they'd been written as if their lives started on Page 1. I'm a writer myself, and there's all sorts of stuff I know about my characters that never reaches the page.

The people adapting this series have a real challenge on their hands, stuffing a manga that's gone on for so long into only 11 episodes. The key to their success lies in knowing what to leave out. They've had to plan which parts of the story they're going to tell in the 11 episodes, and anything that doesn't support their plan has to be cut. Even if it's your favorite scene in the entire manga, if it doesn't support the story you're trying to tell, it's got to go. Those are the hard choices you have to make when you're doing an adaptation.
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Old 2011-01-15, 01:59   Link #228
Guardian Enzo
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Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy View Post
The people adapting this series have a real challenge on their hands, stuffing a manga that's gone on for so long into only 11 episodes. The key to their success lies in knowing what to leave out. They've had to plan which parts of the story they're going to tell in the 11 episodes, and anything that doesn't support their plan has to be cut. Even if it's your favorite scene in the entire manga, if it doesn't support the story you're trying to tell, it's got to go. Those are the hard choices you have to make when you're doing an adaptation.
That's what's missing in all these arguments as far as I can see - any suggestion of what AIC should have done differently. You can't get a size 11 foot into a size 6 shoe, and you can't get 90 chapters of manga into 11 episodes. I think they did what the producers of Kuragehime did - they made the best of what they had and tried to deliver the essence of the source material if not all of the substance. If the alternative was simply not to have an anime at all rather than compromise on the length, would that have been the better option? In both cases, I say no. I would brook no plan that deprived the world of that beautiful, moving and inspiring first episode and I look forward to no series this season more than the 10 remaining episodes of this one.
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Old 2011-01-15, 03:06   Link #229
Reckoner
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I must say, I never expected anything quite on this level from AIC. This was simply a wonderful episode, a deep story with lots of room for interesting character exploration.

I'm definitely going to stay in tune for this show, it may be the best of the season.
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Old 2011-01-15, 03:27   Link #230
guuchan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I must say, I never expected anything quite on this level from AIC. This was simply a wonderful episode, a deep story with lots of room for interesting character exploration.

I'm definitely going to stay in tune for this show, it may be the best of the season.
Indeed. As for the "best of the season", I will hold that comment for now till I see more of this and Madoka, but it's definitely a highly potential candidate.

Since I didn't check out the information of this show in advance, the seiyuu cast really gave me a lot of surprises. When I heard Chiduru's talking (the scene of self-introducing in classroom), I was like "omg, Chiba Saeko! How I missed her voice!". Nanjou Yoshino seems to be doing a good job for Kanako so far (that name doesn't sound familiar to most people unless mentioning "only my railgun"); while Mizuki Nana's took me a while to recognize. But the biggest surprise had to be hocchan: I wasn't aware of her presence in the show at all until I saw her name in the credits, which rarely happened. If someone pays attention or cares about voicing cast, then Hourou Musuko is already a must try in that sense alone, with an all-star cast supporting the 2 protagonists.
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Old 2011-01-15, 05:01   Link #231
Shiroth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
and you can't get 90 chapters of manga into 11 episodes.
& you can't get 34 - 92 chapters into 11 episodes. What's your point?
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Old 2011-01-15, 10:01   Link #232
TinyRedLeaf
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Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy View Post
Despite being included in the acronym 'LGBT,' transgenderism can be a completely separate issue from sexual orientation. The two main characters seem to have gender dysphoria, which primarily affects a person's perception of self and identity but can influence their orientation.
There's no shortage of angst, but gender dysphoria tends to be a very stressful thing to deal with. It impacts a person in virtually every aspect of their daily life, which is a point the manga gets across pretty well. It never felt forced to me, but your mileage may vary.
For the above reason, I had expected to at least like this show, if not be outright excited about the prospect of someone exploring such touchy issues.

But... count me among the many who felt lost after watching the first episode. Part of me is thinking: hang on, I should enjoy this, it has all the elements of stuff I generally enjoy. But, nope. I'm left feeling cold. The show and its themes just don't quite click with me. Something's missing, and I can't quite put a finger on it yet.

As it is, I'm more confused than awed, more underwhelmed than amazed. I don't mind being introduced to a story in media res but, in this instance, it felt too rushed. I can barely keep track of the many names, let alone sympathise with what the key characters are going through. I'm also left with the nagging feeling that the show is treating a serious issue with kid gloves. I would have loved something edgier, more on the fringe, as most such stories dealing with gender identities often are.

I'd probably follow Hourou Musuko for a few more episodes. Hopefully it'll pick up. As it stands, I don't think it can get much worse. But I suspect this is going to be one of those series I'd watch just for the sake of the subject, rather than something I'd genuinely enjoy.
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Old 2011-01-15, 10:21   Link #233
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
As it is, I'm more confused than awed, more underwhelmed than amazed. I don't mind being introduced to a story in media res but, in this instance, it felt too rushed. I can barely keep track of the many names, let alone sympathise with what the key characters are going through. I'm also left with the nagging feeling that the show is treating a serious issue with kid gloves. I would have loved something edgier, more on the fringe, as most such stories dealing with gender identities often are.
Well to be fair, they are children barely into middle school, so the show is likely to reflect issues and problems handled by the mindsets of children and not by adults. Not so much kid gloves to say that the central theme will be downplayed without the appropriate seriousness, but more of with the serious capacities of that of a child. I doubt it will be a more fringe and edgier approach, that's something I would expect from a similar show populated by adults with a different sense of maturity and experience, but again if the final half shows anything, it's that this is indeed a serious issue for at least the two people directly involved.
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Old 2011-01-15, 10:45   Link #234
TinyRedLeaf
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Well to be fair, they are children barely into middle school, so the show is likely to reflect issues and problems handled by the mindsets of children and not by adults. Not so much kid gloves to say that the central theme will be downplayed without the appropriate seriousness, but more of with the serious capacities of that of a child. I doubt it will be a more fringe and edgier approach, that's something I would expect from a similar show populated by adults with a different sense of maturity and experience, but again if the final half shows anything, it's that this is indeed a serious issue for at least the two people directly involved.
Which would suggest that:

1) anime/manga is possibly not the best medium for such themes, possibly limiting the extent to which the platform can drive the drama.

2) the middle-school setting is not being used to its maximum potential. Kids can be mean, and adolescents even more so (coming from an all-boys secondary school, I well remember how cruel we were to an effeminate boy in our grade; he was absolutely beautiful as Snow White, by the way). It's very hard for me to believe that kids like them could blithely go through Japan's education system without encountering significant bullying. Right now, things are a little bit too saccharine sweet to be true. I feel like I'm watching an episode of Picket Fences or 7th Heaven. Which would be nice... 10 or 20 years ago when I enjoyed such shows for their wholesome, fuzzy-wuzzy goodness.

In short, I'm afraid I fall well out of this series' target demographic.
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Old 2011-01-15, 11:17   Link #235
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Which would suggest that:

1) anime/manga is possibly not the best medium for such themes, possibly limiting the extent to which the platform can drive the drama.

2) the middle-school setting is not being used to its maximum potential. Kids can be mean, and adolescents even more so (coming from an all-boys secondary school, I well remember how cruel we were to an effeminate boy in our grade; he was absolutely beautiful as Snow White, by the way). It's very hard for me to believe that kids like them could blithely go through Japan's education system without encountering significant bullying. Right now, things are a little bit too saccharine sweet to be true. I feel like I'm watching an episode of Picket Fences or 7th Heaven. Which would be nice... 10 or 20 years ago when I enjoyed such shows for their wholesome, fuzzy-wuzzy goodness.

In short, I'm afraid I fall well out of this series' target demographic.
1.) I think anime can be a good medium for such themes. It's done extremely well for some themes, even more than what I can say for modern cinema (Grave of the Fireflies, Koi Kaze, etc.). I do of course think that anime as a medium isn't mature enough, or maybe this applies more to the audience in particular, to handle more sexual things as of yet.

2.) To avoid manga spoilers, and it's not as if I actually know what they plan to adapt, I think you should give it a shot maybe halfway through.
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Old 2011-01-15, 12:38   Link #236
Guardian Enzo
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Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
& you can't get 34 - 92 chapters into 11 episodes. What's your point?
That it's better to try and distill the essence of those chapters - however much actual manga content that turns out to be - and deal with the catcalls from the manga partisan in the balcony than not to try at all. Kuragehime proves that for me. I'm sure there are manga readers who would rather that series had never been adapted. I disagree - I think a lot of people got exposure to a fantastic property because of that adaptation and I don't see that as a negative. If manga readers feel so possessive about a story that they simply can't bear to see it edited down that much - which is certainly an understandable reaction - then they shouldn't watch. But they also shouldn't try and tell the viewers who are enjoying it that they're wrong to be doing so.
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Old 2011-01-15, 12:44   Link #237
Kaoru Chujo
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Originally Posted by guuchan View Post
...Since I didn't check out the information of this show in advance, the seiyuu cast really gave me a lot of surprises. When I heard Chiduru's talking (the scene of self-introducing in classroom), I was like "omg, Chiba Saeko! How I missed her voice!". Nanjou Yoshino seems to be doing a good job for Kanako so far....
I was so looking forward to hearing Chiba-san, but the voice that most pleased me was Nanjou Yoshino's. I was very happy to find that she had a voice with some strength in it, to go with her little Koko (DCII) voice. Perhaps her stardom as part of fripSide has somehow turned the switch for her.

Reading TinyRedleaf's posts, I am forced to conclude that my extreme enjoyment of this episode is made possible by the fact that I have at least read quite a bit of the manga -- right up until just before this point, in fact. I found the manga hard to follow, hard to keep the characters separate, but maybe it at least made it possible for me to not have those problems with the anime, at least after the first few minutes.

My personal reactions were completely different from TRL's. I am searching my mind to find an anime I thought this good, after one episode, in the past 2-3 years. The way the story was told just seemed perfect to me, especially at the fine-grain level of the way the emotional humanity of the characters came through -- and that is what I watch anime and film for.

Maybe a real school would have chewed this poor boy up and spit him in the gutter years before, but that is not the story being told here. I can accept the background that he had his problems of acceptance in the past, and has now evolved his own small set of friends, with other students keeping their distance.

To reject the show because it doesn't match the normal reality we live seems a shame, as well as unfair. Animes create their own worlds, and we usually have to suspend our disbelief to let them work their magic.

I actually don't see this as a serious treatment of transgender issues, except at the smallest, most human level, in the emotions of the characters involved. And there it is a burst of glory, for me. I also would not want to deny the perhaps less respectable shotacon attraction of the main character.
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Old 2011-01-15, 12:56   Link #238
rocket
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Count me in as another anime only viewer who is absolutely loving the series. In fact, dropping me into the middle has taken a heart throbbing, gender bending slice of life story and added an element that I never expected - the intellectual engagement of trying to sus out what is going on, what reactions and emotions really mean, and the prospect of rewatching the episodes when I do know what's going on. Much better IMO than what you typically get in this type of series where the
mode of storytelling lets you wallow in the emotions even as you can see the ending telegraphed from miles away...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
That it's better to try and distill the essence of those chapters - however much actual manga content that turns out to be - and deal with the catcalls from the manga partisan in the balcony than not to try at all. Kuragehime ... If manga readers feel so possessive about a story that they simply can't bear to see it edited down that much - which is certainly an understandable reaction - then they shouldn't watch.
Seriously. But then again try telling that to the LOTR purists who insist that the story can't be appreciated without the archaic elven footnotes...
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Old 2011-01-15, 13:00   Link #239
MeoTwister5
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A friend of mine still complains to this day of the fact that Bombadil got the shaft...

Anyway requesting an avatar of Nitorin fixing his collar at 0:22 please.
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Old 2011-01-15, 13:05   Link #240
Guardian Enzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
My personal reactions were completely different from TRL's. I am searching my mind to find an anime I thought this good, after one episode, in the past 2-3 years. The way the story was told just seemed perfect to me, especially at the fine-grain level of the way the emotional humanity of the characters came through -- and that is what I watch anime and film for...

To reject the show because it doesn't match the normal reality we live seems a shame, as well as unfair. Animes create their own worlds, and we usually have to suspend our disbelief to let them work their magic.

I actually don't see this as a serious treatment of transgender issues, except at the smallest, most human level, in the emotions of the characters involved.
I agree with several points in your post, starting with the last one. I think those who view this show as a show "about" trans-gender issues are missing the forest for the trees. This is a show about growing up - about the physical and emotional changes of adolescence and all of the requisite highs and lows that go with them. The gender confusion part of the story is crucial, and a vehicle for showing what children who are "different" have to go through on top of everything "normal" kids go through - but I don't see it as the raison d'etre for the series. It's a story about growing up when you don't fit in, and I don't think it's under any obligation to be a documentary or a tool for issue advocacy, other than acceptance.
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