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Old 2013-05-15, 10:27   Link #721
Owlman
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I thought Tywin was going to reprimand joffery for beinga jerk, what a let down. He made all his children feel like crap except for the one who really deserved it.
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Old 2013-05-15, 10:35   Link #722
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Hitenma View Post
I see her as a hypocrite. She condemned slavery while what she does is forcing other people do what she wishes by threats. What she said to the slaver in this episode is: Forfeit everything you have, but at least I spare your life, so be thankful (exactly what happened to Mirri Maz Duur). While the slaver is not a good guy, it doesn't make Dany good. Whether she is right or wrong doesn't matter, the point is she always think she is right and she threats to destroy anyone who doesn't do as she said. She is basically a tyrant.
So Dany demanding that slave owners free their slaves and compensate them for their uncompensated labor is equivalent to slavery itself, because both involve the threat of force?


That's certainly a fascinating viewpoint. Does the same argument apply to the police when they promise not to kill a kidnapper holding someone hostage for decades if he surrenders? After-all. The Kidnapper may not be a good guy, but the police are using the threat of violence to make the guy comply, and they'll likely seize much of the kidnappers property. Are not the police acting as Tyrants?

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Originally Posted by Owlman View Post
I thought Tywin was going to reprimand joffery for beinga jerk, what a let down. He made all his children feel like crap except for the one who really deserved it.
You need to watch that scene again. Tywin put Joffrey in his place like a tool. He did it entirely with body language.

edit: And a bit of sarcasm, what with the whole "Oh, don't wanna walk up to my tower to be involved with the meetings you never show up to anyway? Well then why don't you have your servants CARRY you up there instead?"

Last edited by Roger Rambo; 2013-05-15 at 10:51.
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Old 2013-05-15, 11:52   Link #723
ArchmageXin
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Originally Posted by Owlman View Post
I thought Tywin was going to reprimand joffery for beinga jerk, what a let down. He made all his children feel like crap except for the one who really deserved it.
Tywin just word-slapped everybody this season.
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Old 2013-05-15, 12:08   Link #724
Midnight Commander
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post

You need to watch that scene again. Tywin put Joffrey in his place like a tool. He did it entirely with body language.

edit: And a bit of sarcasm, what with the whole "Oh, don't wanna walk up to my tower to be involved with the meetings you never show up to anyway? Well then why don't you have your servants CARRY you up there instead?"
Charles Dance would make a great sith lord, he can just act as Tywin. When Tywin walked in that throne room, you could almost hear the imperial march theme.
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Old 2013-05-15, 15:02   Link #725
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Originally Posted by Owlman View Post
I thought Tywin was going to reprimand joffery for beinga jerk, what a let down. He made all his children feel like crap except for the one who really deserved it.
Did we watch the same scene?

He basically reminded him who the real boss in town was.
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Old 2013-05-15, 15:15   Link #726
ArchmageXin
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The funny thing is everything Joff said are actually correct....
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Old 2013-05-15, 15:39   Link #727
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
The funny thing is everything Joff said are actually correct....
About Dany's dragons? Well sure. But it's not like Joffrey is correct because of any particular wisdom. He's just skittish and shaking at shadows. Tywin is nominally right. Given that the last dragons were quite sickly and pathetic creatures indeed, it'd be somewhat lunatic to go crazy over Dany's dragons.


Though I don't think Tywin is completely ignoring this matter. He IS listening to the intelligence about what's going on across the sea. I think it's just that there's a limit to what they could do about it given that Dany is across the ocean, and the 7 Kingdoms are in the middle of a war. Dany would be on the look out for assassins due to the last failed attempt, and he can't spare an army.


The real purpose behind this line of conversation is to remind Joffrey that the adults will handle everything. Cause after with the whole SNAFU with Ned's beheading, Tywin isn't going to trust Joffrey with any real authority.
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Old 2013-05-15, 21:25   Link #728
Hitenma
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
At the end of the US Civil War, that's what the North basically did to the South. It's a nearly perfect parallel. Not many would call the southern slave owners victims and the northerners tyrants.
The Civil War is much more complex than that.
The Southern leaders feared Lincoln would stop slavery once he became the President, so they declared their secession.
The North went to war to preserve the Union.

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Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
She didn't say forfeit everything, but allow each slave to carry on their back enough wealth for their years of service.
Do you really think that a slave state suddenly frees all of its slaves at once will not cause it to collapse?

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
That's certainly a fascinating viewpoint. Does the same argument apply to the police when they promise not to kill a kidnapper holding someone hostage for decades if he surrenders? After-all. The Kidnapper may not be a good guy, but the police are using the threat of violence to make the guy comply, and they'll likely seize much of the kidnappers property. Are not the police acting as Tyrants?
The police are law enforcers.
Dany doesn't have any authority upon Yunkai. She comes to a foreign country and tries to make it bend by force.
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Old 2013-05-15, 22:14   Link #729
ArchmageXin
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Do you really think that a slave state suddenly frees all of its slaves at once will not cause it to collapse?
Well, in theory....but never mind, she is just Sansa. Except Sansa has no power, while Dany run around with WMDs.
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Old 2013-05-15, 23:31   Link #730
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Hitenma View Post
The Civil War is much more complex than that.
The Southern leaders feared Lincoln would stop slavery once he became the President, so they declared their secession.
The North went to war to preserve the Union.
Yep. Though there was a certain ideological aspect to it as well, with the general assertion that the South had a right to secede when-ether they wanted, for whatever reason. I'm sure many Southerners would argue that even if Lincoln truely did not intend to end Slavery in the South, the fact that their demographic importance had slid enough that a President could be elected without appearing on a Southern ballot warranted striking out on their own.


Of course legalistic interpretations of legitimate authority didn't determine whether or not the South could secede or not. Raw power did.
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Do you really think that a slave state suddenly frees all of its slaves at once will not cause it to collapse?
Well I guess it comes down to whether or not you personally consider the value of a slave state (that'd probably get replaced by something else anyway) to be greater than the freedom of 200,000 people.

Obviously Yunkai does. Their problem is that Dany thinks it doesn't.
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The police are law enforcers.
Dany doesn't have any authority upon Yunkai. She comes to a foreign country and tries to make it bend by force.
See, this goes back to a matter Game of Thrones deals with. What's the difference between the lawful authority, and horrid rebels or foreign invaders?

Well the sole distinction is winning. The Targaryens were foreign barbarian invaders. But then they won. Which turned their invasion into centuries of "lawful" rule. Even when there was a rebellion against them, you notice that the rebels nominated Robert Baratheon, due to his house having the most Targaryen blood in it. And what was the distinction between Robert being a rebel and the rightful king? Well because Robert won.

Yunkai claiming "lawful authority" as defense looks pretty meager when they're staring at 8,000 unsullied spears.
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Old 2013-05-16, 07:28   Link #731
GDB
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Originally Posted by Hitenma View Post
The Civil War is much more complex than that.
The Southern leaders feared Lincoln would stop slavery once he became the President, so they declared their secession.
The North went to war to preserve the Union.
Okay? Where did I say anything otherwise? I just said the North did to the South what you're reprimanding Dany for doing here. I didn't say anything about what started the war, only an eventual outcome of it.
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Old 2013-05-16, 10:12   Link #732
ArchmageXin
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You know what is odd?

I stopped by a JR HS/Elementary school on my way to work, and I realized, if you super-impose those little 10-14 years old in place of HBO's actors and actresses, a lot of the scenes would look so different.

Dany and Sansa would be a lot more forgivable with their actions if they were children, Sansa's character would make a lot more sense and forgivable if you realize she is just a little kid. So do Dany's anti-slave war. (Imagine a tiny blonde girl sitting on that divan meeting the Yunkai driver)

Of course, it would be hilarious to watch Jamie the King slayer offer to duel a 14 years old Robb who probably have trouble picking up his sword
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Old 2013-05-16, 10:31   Link #733
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It would probably hurt Arya's character, though. She'd likely come off as more of a brat throwing a temper tantrum.
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Old 2013-05-16, 19:02   Link #734
Guardian Enzo
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Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
You know what is odd?

I stopped by a JR HS/Elementary school on my way to work, and I realized, if you super-impose those little 10-14 years old in place of HBO's actors and actresses, a lot of the scenes would look so different.

Dany and Sansa would be a lot more forgivable with their actions if they were children, Sansa's character would make a lot more sense and forgivable if you realize she is just a little kid. So do Dany's anti-slave war. (Imagine a tiny blonde girl sitting on that divan meeting the Yunkai driver)

Of course, it would be hilarious to watch Jamie the King slayer offer to duel a 14 years old Robb who probably have trouble picking up his sword
You don't have to imagine - read the books. Many characters are closer to those ages than they are to the ages of the actors in the TV series.
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Old 2013-05-16, 19:17   Link #735
ChainLegacy
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
You need to watch that scene again. Tywin put Joffrey in his place like a tool. He did it entirely with body language.

edit: And a bit of sarcasm, what with the whole "Oh, don't wanna walk up to my tower to be involved with the meetings you never show up to anyway? Well then why don't you have your servants CARRY you up there instead?"
He did own him, but I was expecting it to be one of his more typical verbal smackdowns. I mean, I liked what we got, but yeah. I wanted him to grind Joffrey into the dust like he does to Cersei and Tyrion.
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Old 2013-05-16, 19:26   Link #736
Roger Rambo
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He did own him, but I was expecting it to be one of his more typical verbal smackdowns. I mean, I liked what we got, but yeah. I wanted him to grind Joffrey into the dust like he does to Cersei and Tyrion.
Tywin needs to maintain formality. Joffrey is technically his king. He can't treat Joffrey the same way he treats his children. He has to maintain and official vestige of respect, while also reminding Joffrey who is really in charge.
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Old 2013-05-16, 20:57   Link #737
Hitenma
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Well I guess it comes down to whether or not you personally consider the value of a slave state (that'd probably get replaced by something else anyway) to be greater than the freedom of 200,000 people.

Obviously Yunkai does. Their problem is that Dany thinks it doesn't.
Well, it is the answer for ArchmageXin.
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Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
She didn't say forfeit everything, but allow each slave to carry on their back enough wealth for their years of service.
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Okay? Where did I say anything otherwise? I just said the North did to the South what you're reprimanding Dany for doing here. I didn't say anything about what started the war, only an eventual outcome of it.
What I mean is the Civil War is somewhat legal. Dany's war is not.
Think of it this way: What if the South didn't declare secession, they stayed and somehow they managed to keep slavery legal? Do you think the North would start a war to free slaves?
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Old 2013-05-16, 22:23   Link #738
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Originally Posted by Hitenma View Post
Well, it is the answer for ArchmageXin.



What I mean is the Civil War is somewhat legal. Dany's war is not.
Think of it this way: What if the South didn't declare secession, they stayed and somehow they managed to keep slavery legal? Do you think the North would start a war to free slaves?
Legality shouldn't be an issue here. There is no international legal code that governs Westeros. Even the real world's international laws are fairly mute on this subject and hold little binding effect on sovereign nations. Many political scientists would argue that a nation need only justify a war to its people to make it legal.

We can argue morality but in the end it boils down to the fact that she is a conqueror; she has no need to justify her reasons. I think her reasoning is much better than Aegon, who came to Westeros and killed many people just for power, and many other conquerors in real world history.

Certainly, the North didn't go to war to free slaves during the Civil War. Similarly western nations didn't go to war in World War II to help Jewish people being killed, many of them hated Jews almost as much as the Nazi's. A good question is not if their actions were legally correct but if were they morally.
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Old 2013-05-17, 10:59   Link #739
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Hitenma View Post
What I mean is the Civil War is somewhat legal. Dany's war is not.
Could you be more specific? What aspect of the Civil War was legal? Southern secession? Or Lincoln using force to keep the South as part of the Union? I'll point out that both sides would assert with equal vehemence that they were the ones in the legal right, and that the others were demonstrating illegal behavior. The only reason the United States currently considers using force to counter state secession is because the Union was able to exert military and political force to exert their *legal* authority.


Though I REALLY want you to think about something Hitenma. Where do you think the city of Yunkai got all its slaves from? A good chunk of them were probably enslaved in military campaigns. Sure Yunkai probably didn't do fighting themselves, they probably just bought them off someone else. But isn't that still subsidizing and helping to finance military campaigns against other people?


You can't hit Dany for being a tin pot conqueror. Yunkai's entire economy is built around subsidizing and financing tin pot conquerors to sell them slaves. It's like murderous gangsters calling foul and citing the rules of law when another group of gangsters comes in and starts pushing them around.
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Think of it this way: What if the South didn't declare secession, they stayed and somehow they managed to keep slavery legal? Do you think the North would start a war to free slaves?
Of course not. Because the American Civil War from the North's perspective wasn't motivated by by a desire to free the slaves. Lincoln wanted to preserve the Union. Lincoln didn't like slavery*, but he considered preserving the Union a much higher priority. Lincoln would have freed ZERO slaves if it had meant keeping the Union together...but the South seceded anyway. So Lincoln was prepared to use emancipation as a weapon to break the South's back.

Spoiler for Lincoln and slavery:



Of course this is beside the point. Dany isn't interested at all in preserving the political stability of the various city states in this region that use slaves. Their petty concerns don't matter to her. She's morally affronted by slavery, so she's going to use her army to do something about it.
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Old 2013-05-17, 11:46   Link #740
ArchmageXin
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I find it humorous all of you are still debating International legality to a 13 years old girl who had Genghis Khan for a husband.
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