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Old 2014-04-14, 23:20   Link #2081
LevelSeven
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@doom paperclip

no, he doesnt,

question: does beetle have a different ability than kakine? i think he doesnt, that means that kakine could also go into the form of a snake and be as smart as ever.....

as for making his brain faster: its true, he cant simply command his dark matter to create a brain with higher calculation abilitys.....
in the end it comes to what tsunade said: they need time, knowledge and experience.....

for kakine using magic: everything which was touched by his dark matter in NT8 turned automatically into "his body", this happened right after he was revived again, so the problem isnt about how he can fix the rejection but IF he can even produce mana with a dark matter body, technically, kakine is something beyond dead or alive, he wasnt in utopia world too (maybe the 1% means him)....
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Old 2014-04-15, 02:59   Link #2082
Doom_Paperclip
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
@doom paperclip

no, he doesnt,

question: does beetle have a different ability than kakine? i think he doesnt, that means that kakine could also go into the form of a snake and be as smart as ever.....
I was waiting for you to say that. I activate my trap card!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume NT6
The white rhinoceros beetle’s wings whispered the same words once more.

“Did you think I merely deployed tons of puppets made of Dark Matter? Did you think that was all the threat I could muster? C’mon now. The threat approaching before your eyes is known as the #2. Of course it isn’t going to end that easily.”

“You can’t mean…”

Those words were muttered by Yoshikawa, not Accelerator.

It may have been her experience as an Academy City researcher that allowed her to more keenly grasp the bizarreness of that possibility.

But the beetle continued speaking nonetheless.

It continued speaking the truth.

“I am able to reproduce my own organs. And the brain is no exception. And so it is not difficult to make an implementation for my Dark Matter ability. After all, the brain is nothing more than one of a human being’s internal organs.”
All the Dark Matter bodies that Kakine makes have brains and internal organs. This includes the Beetle forms. They aren't simple masses of Dark Matter. To answer your second point, yes, the Beetle form is inferior to the Kakine form:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume NT6
Some white substance had spread out around Kakine’s remaining legs.

It was on the floor, the wall, and even the ceiling.

“I can create almost anything, but it seems I’m the best at creating myself. The specs are highest with that. The single original is better than 10,000 clones. It’s a miniaturized version of one of Academy City’s set rules.”
On the plus side for you the first quote continues:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume NT6
As if in response to his voice, giant wings appeared on the backs of the countless figures standing on the building rooftops.

“Although at this stage, it’s closer to creating some kind of cyborg than it is a Personal Reality. By producing ejection points for my power, they can all wield the power I distribute evenly. And even if the basic principle is different, I can still mass produce Dark Matter as a result. Then again, I’ll probably be able to construct full Personal Realities and make implementations of other people’s powers before long.”
So Kakine might be able to replicate other's powers by copying their brains and personal realities. I'm somewhat skeptical that this will ever happen, but I'll concede that it's a possibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
for kakine using magic: everything which was touched by his dark matter in NT8 turned automatically into "his body", this happened right after he was revived again, so the problem isnt about how he can fix the rejection but IF he can even produce mana with a dark matter body, technically, kakine is something beyond dead or alive, he wasnt in utopia world too (maybe the 1% means him)....
Kakine is technically alive, much in the same way that Hyouka can be considered alive. At the very least, his status is less equivocal than that of Will-chan. However, I agree he might not have any life force.

Even if he does have life force, however, he'd still be destroyed. He'd better hope that magic does not become his body, because otherwise he's f*****.

I'm very skeptical about the 1% thing. If Othinus had failed to restore the world to Touma's then the consequences wouldn't be a cute 1%. Failing to cut off Thor's (actually Ollerus') arm resulted in her arm also getting cut off. Failing to restore the world should, at the very least, result in major cataclysms.
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Old 2014-04-15, 05:24   Link #2083
LevelSeven
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Quote:
I was waiting for you to say that. I activate my trap card!
the posts are good, how long did you wait to catch me XD XD

Quote:
I'm very skeptical about the 1% thing. If Othinus had failed to restore the world to Touma's then the consequences wouldn't be a cute 1%. Failing to cut off Thor's (actually Ollerus') arm resulted in her arm also getting cut off. Failing to restore the world should, at the very least, result in major cataclysms.
i think you understaminate the "1%"...
you need to think about the whole reality, including humans, worlds, past, future, present, animals, plant, believs, laws of the world etc. etc.
even a great incident is to small, 1% of the whole mankind are still 70.000.000 humans who are gone....
1% change: Hitler won the second world war and the whole world would be affected, maybe this will show itself in later volumes,
what we saw from the "new" (the world after othinus restored it with IB) world is:
-that othinus was still the enemy of the world,
-that magic works like always
-the people has their memories back
-esper abilitys are still like always
-that Index is still the magical library

maybe MAYBE the 1% change "summoned" the end of the world XD

Spoiler for kakine is faster:

Last edited by LevelSeven; 2014-04-15 at 05:38.
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Old 2014-04-15, 13:20   Link #2084
Ravagerblade
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^ my thoughts on the 1% is some body(s) who should be dead or alive. one of my theory's.
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Old 2014-04-15, 13:44   Link #2085
LevelSeven
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^ my thoughts on the 1% is some body(s) who should be dead or alive. one of my theory's.
this is also a good possibility but i think the only stuff which can top a majin and the million times world reshaping is that the current world falls apart and comes to an end....
this is also the only statisfying possibility in which i can think of touma and the others are working together (since they need IB)
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Old 2014-04-15, 21:47   Link #2086
Ravagerblade
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I am re-reading the Volumes as of right now and I came across this;

Spoiler for Volume 2 Quote:


So did Kamichi scrap this or am I missing something. Because it seemed to me in later Volumes it's not really an issue at least so far.
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Old 2014-04-15, 21:59   Link #2087
Miraluka
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Probably he didn't care, this is no Type Moon. So Kamachi pulls the 'has a larger amount of mana/telesma" and problem solved.
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Old 2014-04-15, 22:13   Link #2088
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^
Wasn't that line of thinking used in Necessarius SS with Freadia Strikers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
i think you understaminate the "1%"...
you need to think about the whole reality, including humans, worlds, past, future, present, animals, plant, believs, laws of the world etc. etc.
even a great incident is to small, 1% of the whole mankind are still 70.000.000 humans who are gone....
1% change: Hitler won the second world war and the whole world would be affected, maybe this will show itself in later volumes,
what we saw from the "new" (the world after othinus restored it with IB) world is:
-that othinus was still the enemy of the world,
-that magic works like always
-the people has their memories back
-esper abilitys are still like always
-that Index is still the magical library

maybe MAYBE the 1% change "summoned" the end of the world XD
There is no 1% change. Othinus had the reference point IB and guaranteed she could restore Kamijou's World. End of Story.
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Old 2014-04-15, 23:04   Link #2089
Doom_Paperclip
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
the posts are good, how long did you wait to catch me XD XD
About half a day or so. I had to look at your arguments, find evidence to the contrary, make a post that contradicted all of your claims without presenting evidence, then wait for you to reiterate your points. It was somewhat troublesome, but it was worth it just this once.

Quote:
i think you understaminate the "1%"...
you need to think about the whole reality, including humans, worlds, past, future, present, animals, plant, believs, laws of the world etc. etc.
even a great incident is to small, 1% of the whole mankind are still 70.000.000 humans who are gone....
1% change: Hitler won the second world war and the whole world would be affected, maybe this will show itself in later volumes,
what we saw from the "new" (the world after othinus restored it with IB) world is:
-that othinus was still the enemy of the world,
-that magic works like always
-the people has their memories back
-esper abilitys are still like always
-that Index is still the magical library

maybe MAYBE the 1% change "summoned" the end of the world XD
I'm not underestimating 1%, you're underestimating what the failure of a Magic God can bring about. I admit that 1% divergence is a big deal (anyone who has played/watched Steins;Gate would know this), but as catastrophic as it may be, it still pales in comparison to what Othinus' failure would entail.

As we saw from previous examples, failure does not simply mean an imperfect success. Failure always brings about effects that are diametrically opposed to Othinus' intent (ie. she tries to hurt an enemy but gets hurt instead). Right now, her intention was to bring back the world that Touma came from and was happy with. If she had really failed, then something like all of Touma's friends dieing and nobody remembering him would have occurred.

Instead, Touma's friends seem to be there and they remember him. Everything we saw up to now matches with the pre-NT9 world we all know and love. Up until the point Touma decided to suddenly protect public enemy number 1, his friends were on his side. I believe this counts as a resounding success.

Really, all this 1% thing came from one misinterpreted sentence blown way out of proportion:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume NT9
She had been the one to initially create the situation, but she had also been the one to end it and return Kamijou here. If his guess was correct, she had abandoned her objective for this. So should he thank her?

As he thought about that, Index began speaking by his side.

She glared directly at Othinus.

“You’re Othinus, aren’t you!? You brought chaos to Tokyo and caused trouble for everyone!! We won’t let you do what you want anymore!!”

Kamijou truly stopped breathing for an instant.

That threatening aura and hostile tone of voice were not like Index’s normal self.


Yet no one found it odd.
Seriously, that one sentence is all you have going for you and there are other, more simple, explanations to justify it. As others have pointed out, it is perfectly normal for someone to be hostile towards someone who, as far as they know, has caused countless incidents and threatens to destroy everything they hold dear. Index is not her normal self and rightly so. You'd have to be a saint (in the non-TAMNI sense) to remain normal in such a situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume NT9
Spoiler for kakine is faster:
That was before the personality switch. Now he's much more cautious about messing with his power, so we might not see any of this happen after all. At the very least, he won't risk another takeover for the sake of an experiment.
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Old 2014-04-16, 08:40   Link #2090
Miraluka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doom Paperclip
Seriously, that one sentence is all you have going for you and there are other, more simple, explanations to justify it. As others have pointed out, it is perfectly normal for someone to be hostile towards someone who, as far as they know, has caused countless incidents and threatens to destroy everything they hold dear. Index is not her normal self and rightly so. You'd have to be a saint (in the non-TAMNI sense) to remain normal in such a situation.
Except is not just one sentence:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NT8
“Ugh, just look at me. I let my guard down. I wonder if the day is coming when I will be forced into a serious fistfight with 120% beast mode Index or enter a drawn-out battle to the death with a dark shadowy gathering of misfortune given physical form…”
Quote:
Originally Posted by NT9
“You’re right, ‘Touma’. If you’re willing to cause such a commotion, I guess I have to make a compromise. Specifically, I’ll master some techniques using my arms and legs!!”

“Please no! If you head down the course of a martial arts master, I won’t be any match for you!! Was I right and Index really is the final boss!?

And I can't remember if I'm missing other but, with that can you blame them?
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Old 2014-04-16, 09:46   Link #2091
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That was before the personality switch. Now he's much more cautious about messing with his power, so we might not see any of this happen after all. At the very least, he won't risk another takeover for the sake of an experiment.
mmmhhhhh, beetle is somehow not really noticable, exspecially for the part of powers....

kakine was what?? 30 hours active as dark matter being?? and he managed to create different forms of beings and supply them with his power....

beetle <<<<<< kakine, and im waiting for the day where kakine will take beetle over....

with such a fast growing rate i think that if he tries it for maybe a few weeks he will be able to do whatever he wants.....

Quote:
And I can't remember if I'm missing other but, with that can you blame them?
i can say that im sure: Index will never be the endboss.... even if she evolves, it will be boring since we already had a majin.....and pendex<majin....
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Old 2014-04-16, 09:54   Link #2092
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
i can say that im sure: Index will never be the endboss.... even if she evolves, it will be boring since we already had a majin.....and pendex<majin....
That's because you're assuming she would be just JP mode or majin, did you forget the meaning behind the wings that even Othinus doesn't has? Kamachi likes to keep raising the stakes up.
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Old 2014-04-16, 10:13   Link #2093
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wasnt this wings simply another spell??? it was more than normal human-level, maybe angel-class level which makes it to a country-destroying-large-scale-stuff but not reality-warping-and-this-million-times-over-sh*t....

she will be used by laura in the england arc (im sure)....but this will be it for her grant "being boss"-showdown...
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Old 2014-04-16, 10:22   Link #2094
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
wasnt this wings simply another spell??? it was more than normal human-level, maybe angel-class level which makes it to a country-destroying-large-scale-stuff but not reality-warping-and-this-million-times-over-sh*t....

she will be used by laura in the england arc (im sure)....but this will be it for her grant "being boss"-showdown...
No, it wasn't a spell, everytime she casts a spell she describes it on a machine-like way.

Angel-class maybe, but no, that would put Accelerator on angel-class as wel and we know the goal for both sides is to go beyond god-class, if we take Accelerator as a sample on how Aleister is doing it right then the same could be happening in the other side of the world with the magic side.
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Old 2014-04-16, 11:31   Link #2095
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Angel-class maybe, but no, that would put Accelerator on angel-class as wel and we know the goal for both sides is to go beyond god-class, if we take Accelerator as a sample on how Aleister is doing it right then the same could be happening in the other side of the world with the magic side.
but not with Index, even if she is unique, the goal of the magic side is to come closer to god not surpass him...

even the goal of fiamma was (power-wise) to sit on gods right seat....
the majin is the highest point of magicians because it encompasess every possiblity, including every ability Index have shown or possess...

the science side want to create a human which is superior toh human and therefore is close to god, so close that he can understand what the meaning of life/the universe/everything is, thy dont do this because of power (even if it generates ridiculous abilitys), they do this for knowledge....

aleisters goal seems to be that he wants to overcome god and reach a level like aiwass where he can simply observe...
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Old 2014-04-16, 12:00   Link #2096
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
but not with Index, even if she is unique, the goal of the magic side is to come closer to god not surpass him...
You're wrong there.

Why is there a term such as The One Above God? Because they just want to get closer to god?

I'm taking her as an example of being different to the paths taken by Fiamma and Othinus who just happen to fail and Aiwass as example, which had wings first and then got the halo, Accelerator had the wings and then the halo. Then Index got wings. See the pattern?

Quote:
even the goal of fiamma was (power-wise) to sit on gods right seat....
the majin is the highest point of magicians because it encompasess every possiblity, including every ability Index have shown or possess...
Fiamma used the wrong format and:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiamma of the Right, Vol.22, Chapter 10
With this, my right hand is complete. If I wield the power that should originally have been within me at its full output, the salvation of all will be complete. After all, my arm possesses the power to save the entire world. People may refer to that as being The One Above God, but… I do not particularly care about that. I do not intend to match or exceed him. I only intend to gather all the power I have now and to save the world with it.
Which means exceeding him is possible with right method.

Othinus became a full magic god but being a magic god wasn't the same as being the Almighty described on Vol.4.


Quote:
the science side want to create a human which is superior toh human and therefore is close to god, so close that he can understand what the meaning of life/the universe/everything is, thy dont do this because of power (even if it generates ridiculous abilitys), they do this for knowledge....
And your point is? I didn't say anything contrary to this.

Btw, in this series knowledge grants you powers, Fiamma got's access to Index's mind and he was able to curbstomp everyone on his way, later got archangels and heaven's knowledge and overwhelmed Touma with it.

From the legends Mimir's wells grants you knowledge and wisdom. Guess what Othinus did to get power?

Quote:
aleisters goal seems to be that he wants to overcome god and reach a level like aiwass where he can simply observe...
Obvious since WWIII.
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Old 2014-04-16, 13:00   Link #2097
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And your point is? I didn't say anything contrary to this.
My point was that Index can have wings but since she is stuck in a older system, namely: magic, she wont/cant come to a state similar with accel/aiwass....
Kakine also had wings in his awakened mode but never gained a halo and he is "closer" to acc/aiw because he uses the "new" system with the PR's....
reaching a state like aiwass isnt easy or that of accel since you need to be born with the potential....
as long as Index stays a human she will not be able to reach this state and never overcome othinus or fiamma (who merely reached the state of THE God).....

Quote:
Which means exceeding him is possible with right method.
this would be impossible since fiamma is aligned to michael which is on gods right seat and therefore has a equal position like him (sort of), it isnt possible to overcome god with the symbol of The Right.....
Lpsdap fiamma was powerful but he used the wrong system which aleister already said....(my speculation: i think he meant: magic)
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Old 2014-04-16, 13:12   Link #2098
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
My point was that Index can have wings but since she is stuck in a older system, namely: magic, she wont/cant come to a state similar with accel/aiwass....
No, what stucks characters like Fiamma and Othinus was their method, aka Osiris, in order to get it right just do as Aleister said. Horus format.

Quote:
Kakine also had wings in his awakened mode but never gained a halo and he is "closer" to acc/aiw because he uses the "new" system with the PR's....
He never even knew what his own wings were, when he he realized it's late and then got curbstomped before he could display it.

Accelerator went trough a process: Realization--->Black Wings--->New found resolve---> black wings turn white---> gets the halo.

Quote:
reaching a state like aiwass isnt easy or that of accel since you need to be born with the potential....
as long as Index stays a human she will not be able to reach this state and never overcome othinus or fiamma (who merely reached the state of THE God).....
Accelerator has a human body, though. How do you know how much potential each character has? Namely Index who doesn't belongs to science yet displayed wings only science side humans were able to (Accel and Kakine) and who's been hinted to not be a normal human.


Quote:
this would be impossible since fiamma is aligned to michael which is on gods right seat and therefore has a equal position like him (sort of), it isnt possible to overcome god with the symbol of The Right.....
Lpsdap fiamma was powerful but he used the wrong system which aleister already said....(my speculation: i think he meant: magic)
That's why I said he used the wrong method and no, Aleister was very clear about it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleister Crowler, Vol.22, Epilogue
“It was not an issue of the type or amount of power. It was nothing more than an issue of how you used it,” Aleister Crowley said in disinterested voice. “My theory is that the age of Christian spells came to an end upon the completion of the Book of the Law. I actually think you did quite well. And that includes your objective of becoming The One Above God. If instead of the Aeon of Osiris…that is, the laws under the control of solely the Christian Church, you had formatted it in the Aeon of Horus that lies beyond it, you may have had your eye on a position similar to mine.”
Using magic isn't wrong, what was wrong was Fiamma being stuck on Osiris format due to his own beliefs.
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Old 2014-04-16, 14:40   Link #2099
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Accelerator has a human body, though. How do you know how much potential each character has? Namely Index who doesn't belongs to science yet displayed wings only science side humans were able to (Accel and Kakine) and who's been hinted to not be a normal human.
but we know to little about the wings and the process to gaining them..
i have a question: does Index gained a realization of something so that the wings could show up??
and furthermore it seems as if the red wings are made out of kana or telesma which isnt the material accel/kakine used, even Level 5.5 mikoto used dark matter....
i doubt that we can compare them, which brings me back to pendex < majin and since it seems as if the new opponent is stronger than the old one i doubt that we will have her as endboss, she will mostlikely end as a weapon for stuart but than will be saved again....

EDIT:
Quote:
Chapter 8, Verse 25. Beginning elimination of the person obstructing the remote viewing. Analyzing the structure of the enemy’s spell.”

The noise as if from a scratched record was now gone.

And with a great wind, red wings grew from the back of the girl in the white nun’s habit. Their color resembled blood more than fire. As complex magic circles flickered within her pupils, she slowly moved her head around viewing her surroundings.
This is from Vol. 21...
Index used this paragraph-talking before the wings showed up....

Last edited by LevelSeven; 2014-04-16 at 14:51.
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Old 2014-04-16, 15:08   Link #2100
Miraluka
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1. I told you already to stop being entittled to the JP mode. Magic has Thelesma and Science has AIM. Different origins yet similar nature.

There is no proof that confirms your speculation about Mikoto and the dark matter. Also having to fight an enemy once doesn't means it's the last time, look at Accelerator who got stronger for his second match.


About your question, the only clue we have is both Fiamma and Index had their knowledge flowing to each other minds thus Index got what Fiamma knew aka archangels+heaven knowledge.

2. God damn, you really are trying hard to not acept it, aren't you?

Right now, quote the sentence where Index says the wings are a spell.
Because, you know, every time she casts them she starts with the SPELL NAME or ends with the time for their activation.
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