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Old 2014-04-20, 20:58   Link #2161
Miraluka
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Excuse me, but Horus is related to more the Freedom of the Will, for Accelerator was being free of labels about good and evil, he decide to be himself.
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Old 2014-04-20, 20:59   Link #2162
dniv
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Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
not to 100%, ollerus understood gunhas powers....
This was never confirmed you know... All we got was that Ollerus said Gunhas powers would be amazing if he mastered them.

I really don't know how much we should trust anything Ollerus has to say especially if Gunha's power works according to phases, which Ollerus apparently has 0 clue about.

I don't think Gensei really has a clue either.

We don't even know if Aleister has a clue, though he probably does since he was made a level 5 instead of being kept as a level 0...
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Old 2014-04-20, 22:18   Link #2163
Doom_Paperclip
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Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
There is, ones are withing the human knowledge while the others don't.
When you read about a gun being fired, it is safe to assume that it's firing bullets. When you read about a swordsman cutting someone up, it is reasonable to assume he's doing it with a sword. When an automated defense system that draws power from 103000 grimoires uses magic, it is natural to assume that it used one or more grimoire spells. Different assumptions, such as assuming that the gun fires chickens, are unreasonable unless you have good reasons to believe otherwise (ie. something like "the sound of dismayed poultry going past the speed of sound resounded through the air").

The simple fact that the wings are wings and that the mechanism behind them hasn't been explained yet are not good reasons. Most of Pendex's spells have not been given in-depth explanations. We can assume that she took Telesma and made angelic wings out of them, but this is not something outside the realm of ordinary, albeit impossibly powerful, magic. Mark Space was also able to create angel shaped phenomena by manipulating Telesma.

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Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
But her output was affected, so anything she could do would be on her worst state.
What was affected was her accuracy and speed. There is no mention in the text that her output was affected.

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Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
If you didn't notice yet, she is gradually losing it, a war was needed to make one of the controls be destroyed.
The Pen itself is still mostly intact. The collar was destroyed in Volume 1, which damaged some of its functions but that's it. Nothing in the text suggests that the control devices were directly tied to the barriers in her mind, such that destroying one destroyed the other. Even if the other control is destroyed, all that will happen is that nobody will be able to control her remotely anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
Physically. On Vol.13 couldn't show any emotions, she was like a vegetal on the floor, BUT, we got to see what was on his mind. With Index we don't know yet because but since Vol.1 we can infer that she still can feel when in that mode but can't fight against it.
How so? She seems perfectly emotionless to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume 1
Index slowly stood up in such an unsettling manner that she seemed like a boneless, joint-less sack filled with jelly. The crimson magic circles in her eyes pierced Kamijou.

While they were technically eyes, Kamijou found it difficult to think of them as such.

They held no human light and no feminine warmth.

Kamijou had seen those eyes before. When the girl’s back had been sliced open by Kanzaki, collapsing her in front of the student dorm, she had spoken about runes like a machine. These were the eyes she had at that time.
She showed no hints of emotion for the rest of the battle either. Nothing suggests that she is even aware of what she's doing on any level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
Accelerator is special and even with Mikoto going 5.5 many people takes her as weaker than normal Accel or even Kakine . Even Japan does so in their own power charts.
Misaka is also special. She can achieve Level 6, albeit with the need of outside help from the network and at the cost of her life an instant later as the power proves too big for her to handle. At the very least, this is more than Kakine, who can't even reach that level temporarily.

How recent are those charts? Because as of chapter 69 of Railgun, I would have to disagree. The Black stuff that Mikoto conjured up has one important feature in common with Accelerator's Black Wings; it was too powerful for IB to negate. As seen in Volume NT7 when Rensa used it against Touma, Kakine's Dark Matter is perfectly erasable by IB. Mikoto 5.5's output is superior to Kakine's. I doubt he could have done anything against that Black Sphere even in his current state.

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Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
Not a creation but a manifestation of.
Unless, of course, it is not an Esper power at all, as I and others have speculated. Again my source is Railgun chapter 69. Do you have any quotes that can outweigh that speculation?

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Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
Also I would like to remind you, Aleister is basing his science playground based on the Book of Law, a grimoire, you could even say that this "science" is just a derivated from magic bestowed by Aiwass and still is a magician himself .
Though he is a magician, the fact that he is a scientist is undeniable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume 22
He was the one who created supernatural powers with science.

He was the one who constructed an angel by gathering those powers.

Fiamma of the Right, the one who ruled over Michael, understood what that meant. Creating an angel was not the same thing as simply creating a new type of living creature. They were the symbols of the elements that made up the world. For a human to create one of those, it meant that the system at the base of that world was being artificially interfered with.

Gears created by human hands were being inserted into the mechanisms created by god. It was like remaking a music box into a time bomb.

It was the idea of affirming the occult and then trying to use precise equipment on it.

In an older time, just thinking of those things would get one sent to the gallows.
Aleister's MO is to take magic, plunder its mysteries, then stick them under a microscope and probe every bit of them until they turn into science. Science is a collection of knowledge gathered through the scientific method, so it is not necessarily limited to physics and can extend to anything that can be tested and experimented on. As the inverse of Clark's Third Law goes, any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science.
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Old 2014-04-21, 00:53   Link #2164
LevelSeven
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Misaka is also special. She can achieve Level 6, albeit with the need of outside help from the network and at the cost of her life an instant later as the power proves too big for her to handle. At the very least, this is more than Kakine, who can't even reach that level temporarily.
Harui can also archieve system, it isnt special to be able to get closer to that realm, staying stable after someone reached it is the real difficulty...
and i think they mean that mikoto is under awakened kakine and if dark matter kakine is over the whole world, than he would be able to win too....
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Old 2014-04-21, 03:09   Link #2165
Doom_Paperclip
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Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
Harui can also archieve system, it isnt special to be able to get closer to that realm, staying stable after someone reached it is the real difficulty...
and i think they mean that mikoto is under awakened kakine and if dark matter kakine is over the whole world, than he would be able to win too....
Haruue is also special, or rather, she has special circumstances. That experiment required several Espers with similar powers to go out of control and create resonance to boost the ability of one Esper to Level 6. The Level 6 candidate also had to be susceptible to increasing level when out of control, something not common to all Espers. Haruue happened to fit all the requirements. Even the opportunity to unstably reach SYSTEM is not something that all Espers have.

Awakened Kakine may be more powerful than Mikoto 5.5 in her early stages, but he would lose to her in her latter stages. At first, Mikoto merely received a big boost in power, allowing her to launch bolts dozens of times stronger than her usual maximum, as well as the ability to teleport. We can liken this to Kakine's awakening, as he managed to power up his ability considerably and gain more insight into it. However, in her later stages Mikoto 5.5 went beyond that, reaching past her power to conjure a Black Power that had nothing to do with electricity or magnetism.

In the end, Kakine was stuck with his ability. He was unable to go beyond Dark Matter to obtain the same power that allowed Accelerator to paste him. It doesn't matter that he could win against everything in the world, as Gunha referred to that Black Sphere as something not of this world. I stand by my speculation that it is the same stuff that makes up Accelerator's wings and that if Kakine were to face it, he would lose just as hard.
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Old 2014-04-21, 03:29   Link #2166
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In the end, Kakine was stuck with his ability. He was unable to go beyond Dark Matter to obtain the same power that allowed Accelerator to paste him. It doesn't matter that he could win against everything in the world, as Gunha referred to that Black Sphere as something not of this world. I stand by my speculation that it is the same stuff that makes up Accelerator's wings and that if Kakine were to face it, he would lose just as hard.
well, their is the thing with the situation, if we take kakine (vol.15) than he would hhave a hard time but it isnt impossible, i more ship into level 5.5 misaka but dark matter is also not from this world, it is now only a matter of sheer power......where i think that misakas dark matter bomb would have the upper hand...
the only way to decide this: kamachi should give kakine more feats
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Old 2014-04-21, 08:49   Link #2167
Birdway
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Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip View Post
When you read about a gun being fired, it is safe to assume that it's firing bullets. When you read about a swordsman cutting someone up, it is reasonable to assume he's doing it with a sword. When an automated defense system that draws power from 103000 grimoires uses magic, it is natural to assume that it used one or more grimoire spells. Different assumptions, such as assuming that the gun fires chickens, are unreasonable unless you have good reasons to believe otherwise (ie. something like "the sound of dismayed poultry going past the speed of sound resounded through the air").
However there is no passage saying that, though.

Quote:
The simple fact that the wings are wings and that the mechanism behind them hasn't been explained yet are not good reasons. Most of Pendex's spells have not been given in-depth explanations. We can assume that she took Telesma and made angelic wings out of them, but this is not something outside the realm of ordinary, albeit impossibly powerful, magic. Mark Space was also able to create angel shaped phenomena by manipulating Telesma.
But Mark's was no different to the one Index did on Vol.1.
Oh, just you know grimoires are outside the realm of ordinary you know? That's why nobody dares to even take a glance at them.

Quote:
What was affected was her accuracy and speed. There is no mention in the text that her output was affected.
Her mind was overworking on two different places at the time. The burden from the remote control spiritual item was holding her back.

Quote:
The Pen itself is still mostly intact. The collar was destroyed in Volume 1, which damaged some of its functions but that's it. Nothing in the text suggests that the control devices were directly tied to the barriers in her mind, such that destroying one destroyed the other. Even if the other control is destroyed, all that will happen is that nobody will be able to control her remotely anymore.
The collar was automatic system of selfdefense, on vol.18, the Queen says those control devices are restraining her even without the collar.



Quote:
How so? She seems perfectly emotionless to me.


She showed no hints of emotion for the rest of the battle either. Nothing suggests that she is even aware of what she's doing on any level.
Did you read properly what I say? I meant that she couldn't fight against her machine like state, but after that she said she still could feel and was scared of herself(vol.1)



Quote:
Misaka is also special. She can achieve Level 6, albeit with the need of outside help from the network and at the cost of her life an instant later as the power proves too big for her to handle. At the very least, this is more than Kakine, who can't even reach that level temporarily.
She isn't, her situation isn't that different to Harue Eri, aka with a big external help, she just was put under special cirncunstances that allowed it to happen but it's fated to end in failure.

Quote:
How recent are those charts? Because as of chapter 69 of Railgun, I would have to disagree. The Black stuff that Mikoto conjured up has one important feature in common with Accelerator's Black Wings; it was too powerful for IB to negate. As seen in Volume NT7 when Rensa used it against Touma, Kakine's Dark Matter is perfectly erasable by IB. Mikoto 5.5's output is superior to Kakine's. I doubt he could have done anything against that Black Sphere even in his current state.
Probably because of the epithet used to refer to him/his power is what makes Kakine special to even Japan fandom.The One Who Has Touched the Territory of God. His power is a rule breaking ability, Mikoto's even in her 5.5 you could tell what she did were electrical attacks, pseudo-teleportation and elegtromagnetism.


Quote:
Unless, of course, it is not an Esper power at all, as I and others have speculated. Again my source is Railgun chapter 69. Do you have any quotes that can outweigh that speculation?
The esper power reached a point were your average science isn't enough to explain it, simple as that unexplainable but still has its roots on science.


Quote:
Though he is a magician, the fact that he is a scientist is undeniable.
The methods used has the same root.


Aleister's MO is to take magic, plunder its mysteries, then stick them under a microscope and probe every bit of them until they turn into science. Science is a collection of knowledge gathered through the scientific method, so it is not necessarily limited to physics and can extend to anything that can be tested and experimented on. As the inverse of Clark's Third Law goes, any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science.[/QUOTE]

Quote:
Misaka is also special. She can achieve Level 6, albeit with the need of outside help from the network and at the cost of her life an instant later as the power proves too big for her to handle. At the very least, this is more than Kakine, who can't even reach that level temporarily.

How recent are those charts? Because as of chapter 69 of Railgun, I would have to disagree. The Black stuff that Mikoto conjured up has one important feature in common with Accelerator's Black Wings; it was too powerful for IB to negate. As seen in Volume NT7 when Rensa used it against Touma, Kakine's Dark Matter is perfectly erasable by IB. Mikoto 5.5's output is superior to Kakine's. I doubt he could have done anything against that Black Sphere even in his current state.
Mikoto was under special circunstances as well.

Quote:
Awakened Kakine may be more powerful than Mikoto 5.5 in her early stages, but he would lose to her in her latter stages.
How so? Kakine power literally messed up with the scientific laws, it wouldn't be surprising if he just changed them to make her attacks harmless, he has done that before with Meltdowner and other attacks.

Last edited by Birdway; 2014-04-21 at 11:03. Reason: EDIT
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Old 2014-04-21, 10:05   Link #2168
Doom_Paperclip
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Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
However there is no passage saying that, though.
Saying what? I'm afraid that our previous conversations have shown that I do not always understand what you're trying to say. If it isn't too much to ask, could you be more specific from now on?

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Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
But Mark's was no different to the one Index did on Vol.1.
Oh, just you know grimoires are outside the realm of ordinary you know? That's why nobody dares to even take a glance at them.
And I'm saying that Pendex's wings are the same as what she made Komoe do in Volume 1 and what Mark Space pulled off. Grimoires are certainly out of the ordinary, but ultimately they consist of human knowledge. It is simply more concentrated and more powerful than normal, to the point where it destroys unprotected human minds. When diluted, it becomes perfectly serviceable.

To make a simile, if a normal spell is like an early day musket, then a Grimoire spell is like a modern day assault rifle. The latter is obviously superior to the former, but ultimately it based on the same principles and technology refined and improved upon. Special powers like those of Majins, on the other hand, are like the Phasers from Star Trek. Powers like those have reached a whole different level, a level which I believe Index has yet to achieve.

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Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
Her mind was overworking on two different places at the time. The burden from the remote control spiritual item was holding her back.
Yes, they were holding her back by making her slower to react and less precise in her attacks, which let Stiyl just barely manage to avoid death. I see no evidence, however, that her power output was affected in any way. If you want me to concede this point, you're going to have to take out a quote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
The collar was automatic system of selfdefense, on vol.18, the Queen says those control devices are restraining her even without the collar.
[Citation Needed]


Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
Did you read properly what I say? I meant that she couldn't fight against her machine like state, but after that she said she still could feel and was scared of herself(vol.1)
So, basically what you're saying is that she was aware of everything she did while in Pendex mode but was unable to fight it? Not so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume 1
She disliked having magicians, whom she thought were her enemies, tell her about the yearly wiping of her memories or about how a certain boy had risked his life to save her from those horrible circumstances.

...

Serious damage had been done to the boy’s brain as a reaction to his forced overuse of his esper powers and as damage from the light Index herself had fired. (Or so she had heard. She did not remember it herself.)
While the Pen is active, she is not conscious at all. If Stiyl and Kanzaki hadn't told her the truth, she wouldn't have known that she had gone on a magical rampage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
She isn't, her situation isn't that different to Harue Eri, aka with a big external help, she just was put under special circumstances that allowed it to happen but it's fated to end in failure.

Mikoto was under special circunstances as well.
Semantics. All I'm saying is that not every Esper in AC has the chance to reach Level 6, even unstably for a few instants before collapsing and taking down AC with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
The methods used has the same root.
You could say the same thing about magic. Ultimately, as Birdway pointed out in Volume NT2, Magic is not all that different from Science. Both are specialized forms of knowledge perfect through trial and error over the centuries. The division between the Science side and the Magic side exists less because the two are incompatible and more as a safety measure against war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
Probably because of the epithet used to refer to him/his power is what makes Kakine special to even Japan fandom.The One Who Has Touched the Territory of God. His power is a rule breaking ability, Mikoto's even in her 5.5 you could tell what she did were electrical attacks, pseudo-teleportation and elegtromagnetism.

The esper power reached a point were your average science isn't enough to explain it, simple as that unexplainable but still has its roots on science.

How so? Kakine power literally messed up with the scientific laws, it wouldn't be surprising if he just changed them to make her attacks harmless, he has done that before with Meltdowner and other attacks.
I like how you conveniently omitted all of the parts of my posts about how the power that Mikoto 5.5 conjured at the end is probably the same as Accelerator's Black Wings, which if true would destroy all of the arguments you just made, and just responded to the parts you felt like answering. Now do it over, this time without omitting the inconvenient bits.
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Old 2014-04-21, 10:15   Link #2169
LevelSeven
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To make a simile, if a normal spell is like an early day musket, then a Grimoire spell is like a modern day assault rifle. The latter is obviously superior to the former, but ultimately it based on the same principles and technology refined and improved upon. Special powers like those of Majins, on the other hand, are like the Phasers from Star Trek. Powers like those have reached a whole different level, a level which I believe Index has yet to achieve.
this is good

than with this: if a majin is a phaser, than a Level6 would be a weapon from the Borgs....

and the endgoal of aleister, the current state of aiwass: they would be the Q's from star trek....

this fits suprisingly good XD
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Old 2014-04-21, 10:50   Link #2170
Birdway
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Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip View Post
Saying what? I'm afraid that our previous conversations have shown that I do not always understand what you're trying to say. If it isn't too much to ask, could you be more specific from now on?
OK?

Quote:
And I'm saying that Pendex's wings are the same as what she made Komoe do in Volume 1 and what Mark Space pulled off. Grimoires are certainly out of the ordinary, but ultimately they consist of human knowledge. It is simply more concentrated and more powerful than normal, to the point where it destroys unprotected human minds. When diluted, it becomes perfectly serviceable.

To make a simile, if a normal spell is like an early day musket, then a Grimoire spell is like a modern day assault rifle. The latter is obviously superior to the former, but ultimately it based on the same principles and technology refined and improved upon. Special powers like those of Majins, on the other hand, are like the Phasers from Star Trek. Powers like those have reached a whole different level, a level which I believe Index has yet to achieve.
No, using a different age weapon doesn't makes your mind get corrupted and poisoned. Your comparison is wrong for grimoires.
What Index made Komoe cast needed a preparation/ritual/arrays beforehand just like Mark did with his cards and that took him time
.

Quote:
“Grimoires are dangerous. Written in them are aberrant and uncommon knowledge as well as twisted laws that break the common laws of this world. Whether they’re for good or evil, those things are toxic in this world. Merely learning the knowledge of a ‘different world’ will destroy the brain of the one who learns it,” explained Index.
No such as thing as diluted grimoires, Tecpatl tried to make a protection against the grimoire he was using and it turned against him killing him.
Etzali was chosen by a grimoire yet it still wears down his mind with poison.

Quote:
“As I said before, grimoires are dangerous.” Index narrowed her eyes. “When disposing just a copy, an expert Inquisitioner[a 7] must sew his eyes shut to prevent pollution of his brain, and even then it takes 5 years of baptisms to fully rid him of the poison. The human mind cannot handle an Original. The only option for the 103,000 Originals scattered about the world is to seal them.”
Even Fiamma of the Right without the protection granted by his Holy Right also suffered the same effects of poison. This makes me wonder more than one time what part of her is human? (And we know the part that says she can't use magic is bullshit since vol.1 )

Quote:
Yes, they were holding her back by making her slower to react and less precise in her attacks, which let Stiyl just barely manage to avoid death. I see no evidence, however, that her power output was affected in any way. If you want me to concede this point, you're going to have to take out a quote.
It's just logic, without concetration you can't go all out on whatever you do even if you wanted or a out of control situation which wasn't the situation here and there must be a reason why Laura was so nonchalant at the whole situation as if she knew nothing serious will happen.

Quote:
[Citation Needed]
Vol.18. Epilogue.
Quote:
“Stop it. The many safety devices installed on Index Librorum Prohibitorum are necessary measures to guarantee her basic human rights,” said Elizard from the side.
So this means there is more than those 2 controls, perhaps something else or there wouldn't be the need to say many when there are just 2 controls.

Quote:
So, basically what you're saying is that she was aware of everything she did while in Pendex mode but was unable to fight it? Not so.
Quote:
“Awakened?”

The way she stated it had it seem as if that puppet-like form were her true self. It was like the kind girl before him was a fake form.

“Yes, but please don’t say too much about what I’m like when I awaken.”

Kamijou was unable to ask why. Before he could say anything, Index said, “Speaking when you aren’t conscious is something like talking in your sleep. It’s embarrassing. Also,” she said. “It seems I become more and more like a cold machine and that scares me.”
I wouldn't say she remembers what she did but sure she's aware that she "awakened" to that mode.

Quote:
While the Pen is active, she is not conscious at all. If Stiyl and Kanzaki hadn't told her the truth, she wouldn't have known that she had gone on a magical rampage.
They keep on erasing her memories each year and they didn't even know about the collar, so they're not much help .

Quote:
Semantics. All I'm saying is that not every Esper in AC has the chance to reach Level 6, even unstably for a few instants before collapsing and taking down AC with them.
Then this means not everyone are special, just the ones who have something big/different on their names like I said. If Accel and Kakine are special it's because they can do something different by themselves and not with some special support or help. Mikoto and Haruee need the Imaginary District Number + Misaki's Exterior and Poltergeist respectively to support them.

Quote:
You could say the same thing about magic. Ultimately, as Birdway pointed out in Volume NT2, Magic is not all that different from Science. Both are specialized forms of knowledge perfect through trial and error over the centuries. The division between the Science side and the Magic side exists less because the two are incompatible and more as a safety measure against war.
We don't know when the line appeared in the series story. But so far it could have it's origin with Academy City, so just making a guess, Aleister doesn't wants the magic and science to mix together as one or else a deviation for his plan(s) may occur(again).
For example, this maybe a hint from Endymion movie, Shotaura became an esper after separating herself from Arisa that is a being/ego created by magic, and at the end fused their bodies/minds as one, what does this means? We have yet to see in the future.

Quote:
I like how you conveniently omitted all of the parts of my posts about how the power that Mikoto 5.5 conjured at the end is probably the same as Accelerator's Black Wings, which if true would destroy all of the arguments you just made, and just responded to the parts you felt like answering. Now do it over, this time without omitting the inconvenient bits.
IDTS, afterall it doesn't changes the outcome of what I say. I should have used spoiler to save space, it's just this time I cut your part and only put the first lines. I hope you're not being serious here you know Rensa doesn't has the same output and skill as Accelerator or Kakine have, she is just a machine with a piece of brain inside. Btw, how do you know Mikoto's energy ball is the same as Accelerator's black wings? Touma approched them in different ways, with Accelerator he blocked them from a safe distance and with Mikoto he just run straight at her ending with his arm blown away.

@LevelSeven lolnope, grimoires can't be compared to weapons (some characters tried to used them as such and met a painful end), those things are like a virus with their own mind.

Last edited by Birdway; 2014-04-21 at 11:07.
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Old 2014-04-21, 11:37   Link #2171
Phibrizzo
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I would like to add that Bettle Kakine admit he can't use the full power of Dark matter because he is afraid the dark parts of him to surface and take control, so yeah the dark matter that was used vs Rensa is a weak version of it.

There are some special humans

The pope could read several grimmores (he was in pain but he did manage... which speak a lot of his will and magic level)
Fiamma never really read a grimmore directly
Aureolus wrote and seal several grimmores (then again outside the super mages he is pretty freaking broken himself).
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Old 2014-04-21, 11:47   Link #2172
Doom_Paperclip
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Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
No, using a different age weapon doesn't makes your mind get corrupted and poisoned. Your comparison is wrong for grimoires.
What Index made Komoe cast needed a preparation/ritual/arrays beforehand just like Mark did with his cards and that took him time.

No such as thing as diluted grimoires, Tecpatl tried to make a protection against the grimoire he was using and it turned against him killing him.
Etzali was chosen by a grimoire yet it still wears down his mind with poison.

Even Fiamma of the Right without the protection granted by his Holy Right also suffered the same effects of poison. This makes me wonder more than one time what part of her is human? (And we know the part that says she can't use magic is bullshit since vol.1 )
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume 15
Unabara Mitsuki looked in carelessly and screamed.

It had only been a few characters. He hadn’t looked directly at them; they had only barely entered his field of vision. And yet his brain felt like it was going to split in two. This wasn’t like a watered-down copy altered and interpreted for general use. It was a true original.
There are such things as watered down copies that are safe to use. The dose makes the poison. Grimoires contain the same knowledge that all Magicians use, just concentrated to toxic levels. To begin with, the people who wrote the Grimoires were Magicians, so it makes no sense for them to contain more knowledge than what their authors knew.

The fact that Index can't use magic is, in a sense, true. John's Pen monopolizes all of her mana so that neither she nor the Grimoires can get to it, which keeps her safe but also stops her from casting spells of her own will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume 1
“…Come to think of it, there was one thing I forgot to ask you,” Kamijou muttered under his breath as he clenched his battered right fist. “If you’re not an esper, why is it you have no magic power?”

The answer to that question was likely right before him. The Church had prepared multiple layers of security. If someone found out about the secret of her perfect memory and tried to remove the collar, Index would automatically use her 103,000 grimoires to use the powerful magic held within in order to literally keep the person who knew the truth from saying anything ever again. All of Index’s magic power was put into running that auto defense system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
It's just logic, without concetration you can't go all out on whatever you do even if you wanted or a out of control situation which wasn't the situation here and there must be a reason why Laura was so nonchalant at the whole situation as if she knew nothing serious will happen.
Lack of concentration would make it harder to formulate spells, reducing speed, but it would not affect output. Output is a factor of how much life force is used up by the spell and how efficient the spell is. It would take longer than normal, but once completed, the spell would have 100% power regardless of how heavily taxed her concentration was.

As for Laura, you can also speculate that since she's the one who placed the John's Pen in the first place, she might have a secret technique in reserve that allows her to subdue it in case it is ever turned against her. She seems like the type of person who would do that. Case in point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume 22
He then heard a footstep.

Stiyl looked over to find Laura Stuart smiling.

She was lightly swinging around something in her hand.

At first Stiyl thought it was the remote control spiritual item and his eyes opened wide in shock, but that was not what it was.

Laura was holding a card-shaped communications spiritual item.

“Here’s your reward,” she said.

She brought that communications spiritual item that was connected to the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church and the Russian Orthodox Church close to her lips.

“Well, it seems the quota has been met, so I will aid in the retrieval of the grimoire library as well.”

...

Fiamma held out Index’s remote control spiritual item. He was trying to use the knowledge of the 103,000 grimoires to intercept Kamijou. His defenses must have been weakened by the loss of his special power because a terrible headache stabbed into him, but he ignored it and continued searching through the knowledge. The light in his eyes said that he would kill the enemy before his eyes no matter what.

But then Fiamma heard a voice.

It was the voice of the grimoire library that he was supposed to be contacting magically.

(Warning: Chapter 88, Verse 1. An abnormality has occurred to the main body as it carries out the search. Due to receiving too great an external stimulus, operation efficiency has been significantly impeded.)

“…!?”

Index Librorum Prohibitorum’s main body should have been safely stored in St. George’s Cathedral. If an external stimulus had caused an error, an Anglican magician must have done something.

His final means of attack had been cut off.
At some point after Laura Stuart declared that she would help Stiyl, Pendex was subdued off-screen to the point where the Remote could no longer be used to access it normally. This was all accomplished without using another Remote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
Vol.18. Epilogue.

So this means there is more than those 2 controls, perhaps something else or there wouldn't be the need to say many when there are just 2 controls.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume 18
The first was what Fiamma said next.

“I suppose you could call it the external controller for John’s Pen, the safety device installed on Index Librorum Prohibitorum. It is a treasured item held only by the heads of the royal family and the Anglican Church. Of course, there’s the contamination from the original grimoires, so it’s really only a last resort. …Didn’t you find it odd? No matter how much she wanted it herself, did you really think they would leave the Index Librorum Prohibitorum that held the 103,000 grimoires in the middle of that city of science with no insurance whatsoever? And it was the Archbishop that created this cruel system.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanzaki SS
“Like the Index Librorum Prohibitorum? That too is pretty risky. Just how many defensive mechanisms does she have put inside her? You can call them religious defensive walls all you want, but one wrong step could modify her mind to the point that she loses all her functionality as a human dozens of times over.”
John's Pen was never destroyed, only the Collar that enforced Index's 1 year memory. The Pen itself is a monstrous multi-layer amalgam of control spells. The Remotes allow it to be controlled at a distance, but are not an integral part of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
I wouldn't say she remembers what she did but sure she's aware that she "awakened" to that mode.
My point stands. She did not have enough emotion to draw parallels to Accelerator's wings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
Then this means not everyone are special, just the ones who have something big/different on their names like I said. If Accel and Kakine are special it's because they can do something different by themselves and not with some special support or help. Mikoto and Haruee need the Imaginary District Number + Misaki's Exterior and Poltergeist respectively to support them.
Can we just agree that there are varying degrees of special and that Accelerator is the most special of them all?

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Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
We don't know when the line appeared in the series story. But so far it could have it's origin with Academy City, so just making a guess, Aleister doesn't wants the magic and science to mix together as one or else a deviation for his plan(s) may occur(again).
For example, this maybe a hint from Endymion movie, Shotaura became an esper after separating herself from Arisa that is a being/ego created by magic, and at the end fused their bodies/minds as one, what does this means? We have yet to see in the future.
More like Aleister wants to monopolize all of the delicious magical science/scientific magic for himself. Seriously, the guy got away with building an AIM Angel and Heaven, yet Richard Brave couldn't get away with drawing invisible runes with vitamin B.

Also, Arisa was not created by magic. Like Fräulein Kreutune, she was a being that did not belong to either side. As proof, despite being a Level 0, she did not suffer any rejection when calling upon her miracle singing.

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Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
IDTS, afterall it doesn't changes the outcome of what I say. I should have used spoier to save space, it's just this time I cut your part and only put the first lines.
Oh, but it changes everything. Dark Matter's limits are not well defined, but it certainly isn't omnipotent. There are things it simply cannot do. We've seen that Dark Matter is as good as wet tissue paper when faced with Accelerator's Black Wings, so if Mikoto 5.5 can conjure the same power that Accelerator did, even unstably, that places her firmly above him.
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Old 2014-04-21, 11:56   Link #2173
Birdway
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Quote:
There are such things as watered down copies that are safe to use. The dose makes the poison. Grimoires contain the same knowledge that all Magicians use, just concentrated to toxic levels. To begin with, the people who wrote the Grimoires were Magicians, so it makes no sense for them to contain more knowledge than what their authors knew.
Yeah, but none of them are within Index, she has Originals on her brain.
The one Tecpatl had was an original, and the one which made Xochitl's body erode was an original as well.

Quote:
Lack of concentration would make it harder to formulate spells, reducing speed, but it would not affect output. Output is a factor of how much life force is used up by the spell and how efficient the spell is. It would take longer than normal, but once completed, the spell would have 100% power regardless of how heavily taxed her concentration was.
This makes no sense on any situation presented in the series so far.

Quote:
At some point after Laura Stuart declared that she would help Stiyl, Pendex was subdued off-screen to the point where the Remote could no longer be used to access it normally. This was all accomplished without using another Remote.
The help was about the spells working for SoB.

Styil caused the interference with his restrain card.

Quote:
John's Pen was never destroyed, only the Collar that enforced Index's 1 year memory. The Pen itself is a monstrous multi-layer amalgam of control spells. The
Remotes allow it to be controlled at a distance, but are not an integral part of it.
I think you're assuming that JP is the the whole of defensive mechanisms she has, while I say there is more than that. The controls are just a part of that.

Quote:
Also, Arisa was not created by magic. Like Fräulein Kreutune, she was a being that did not belong to either side. As proof, despite being a Level 0, she did not suffer any rejection when calling upon her miracle singing.
She appeared during the miracle Shoutaura created, also she wasn't esper at that time, after that the details about Arise are unknown, she could be labeled as Level 0 like Touma for all we know.

Btw, the time when that incident and then the mix happened were outside the Earth, so there must be something related about being outside Earth's influence?

Quote:
Can we just agree that there are varying degrees of special and that Accelerator is the most special of them all?
Nope .

If we asked about who are special within AC I think nobody would disagree if I named : Accelerator, Kakine and Gunha. Aleister himself aside, of course.

Last edited by Birdway; 2014-04-21 at 12:08.
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Old 2014-04-21, 12:02   Link #2174
LevelSeven
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Quote:
Also, Arisa was not created by magic. Like Fräulein Kreutune, she was a being that did not belong to either side. As proof, despite being a Level 0, she did not suffer any rejection when calling upon her miracle singing.
she was created by a miracle, not because of magic, IB cant affect miracels which is the reason why arisa still existed after being touched...
kreutune isnt science (PR) or magic or even a miracle because she is simply a different species... she is he only real Mutant in toaru....

Quote:
Oh, but it changes everything. Dark Matter's limits are not well defined, but it certainly isn't omnipotent. There are things it simply cannot do. We've seen that Dark Matter is as good as wet tissue paper when faced with Accelerator's Black Wings, so if Mikoto 5.5 can conjure the same power that Accelerator did, even unstably, that places her firmly above him.
you said it yourself, dark matters limitations arent really clear...
in fact: only that he can create infinite matter which defies physics is a broken power, without the immortal-power-up....
unfortunatly he seems to never use that part of his ability....
either lack of experience or kakine will always be a "im coming back stonger than before but everyone still defeats me"-char.

PS: for index's wings, wasnt their a part where many magical circles showed up behind her back?? or was it in her eyes??, either way, isnt this enough to take this wings into a "spell"-category??
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Old 2014-04-21, 12:11   Link #2175
Birdway
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Fiamma claimed he was using miracles, though.


PS: I't still was editing my previous post.


@Level7
From her eyes. So far from them space cracks appeared, and those were part of St. George's Sanctuary and her beam attacks(EELS and BB).
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Old 2014-04-21, 12:31   Link #2176
Doom_Paperclip
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
Yeah, but none of them are within Index, she has Originals on her brain.
The one Tecpatl had was an original, and the one which made Xochitl's body erode was an original as well.
Which is why I'm saying that Pendex's wings are merely a more concentrated version of what Mark Space and Komoe did. They are the same thing, except better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
This makes no sense on any situation presented in the series so far.
In Volume 4, Touma's father activated Angel Fall without knowing what he did. In Volume 9, Fukiyose touched on of Oriana's cards and fell victim to it. In Volume NT3, Magicians managed to trick Accelerator into participating in a Magic ritual. You don't need concentration to cast Spells, as long as the conditions are met, you can even activate them by accident.

Pendex's lack of concentration made it take longer to meet the conditions, but once a spell was active, its power was not contingent on her mental focus. This makes all the sense in the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
The help was about the spells working for SoB.

Styil caused the interference with his restrain card.
You mean this card?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume 22
Immediately afterwards, an explosive noise as if from a strike of lightning exploded out. Stiyl had activated the restraining rune card he had put on her.

Index’s backbone creaked as it bent like a bow.

“Warning: Chapter 47, Verse 80. Restraining effect on mind and body due to a psychological effect has been confirmed. It is affecting mental functions. Leading the restraining effect to a dummy area and putting priority on maintaining ability to analyze spells.”

The rune on the laminated card started to fade like a poster that had been left in the sun for long periods of time. The important “staining” of the rune was being removed. Of course, once that coloration disappeared, its effects would disappear too. It would not last long.
That effect was eliminated long before Fiamma found his access denied. Laura clearly said "I will aid in the retrieval of the grimoire library as well", so isn't it more natural to assume she did something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
I think you're assuming that JP is the the whole of defensive mechanisms she has, while I say there is more than that. The controls are just a part of that.
But we both agree that simply destroying the second Remote will not free her completely and that even if it did, the Grimoires would kill her once her mana is up for grabs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
She appeared during the miracle Shoutaura created, also she wasn't esper at that time, after that the details about Arise are unknown, she could be labeled as Level 0 like Touma for all we know.

Btw, the time when that incident and then the mix happened were outside the Earth, so there must be something related about being outside Earth's influence?
Arisa herself told Touma and Index that she was a Level 0.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdway View Post
Nope .

If we asked about who are special within AC I think nobody would disagree if I named : Accelerator, Kakine and Gunha. Aleister himself aside, of course.
Objection! I asked myself and I disagreed! You lied to me!
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Old 2014-04-21, 12:49   Link #2177
Birdway
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Quote:
Which is why I'm saying that Pendex's wings are merely a more concentrated version of what Mark Space and Komoe did. They are the same thing, except better.
There is no proof to assume that, though.

Quote:
In Volume 4, Touma's father activated Angel Fall without knowing what he did. In Volume 9, Fukiyose touched on of Oriana's cards and fell victim to it. In Volume NT3, Magicians managed to trick Accelerator into participating in a Magic ritual. You don't need concentration to cast Spells, as long as the conditions are met, you can even activate them by accident.

Pendex's lack of concentration made it take longer to meet the conditions, but once a spell was active, its power was not contingent on her mental focus. This makes all the sense in the world.
And all of them had arranged rituals beforehand that only needed to be activated by the characters with certain action. Index's wasn't. So no, it doesn't makes sense at all.

Quote:
That effect was eliminated long before Fiamma found his access denied. Laura clearly
said "I will aid in the retrieval of the grimoire library as well", so isn't it more natural to assume she did something?
Dude, that's happening at the same time.

There are various parts from the same chapter starting with "At the same time".

Quote:
But we both agree that simply destroying the second Remote will not free her completely
Agree but...
Quote:
and that even if it did, the Grimoires would kill her once her mana is up for grabs.
No. We don't know how the grimoires would do on her but I doubt those will kill her, or else she wouldn't been used as the vessel of such knowledge.

Quote:
Arisa herself told Touma and Index that she was a Level 0.
Yeah, but I meant during the time she manifested, she had to go somewhere else after crashing. AC was the place.
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Old 2014-04-21, 20:27   Link #2178
dniv
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
Harui can also archieve system, it isnt special to be able to get closer to that realm, staying stable after someone reached it is the real difficulty...
and i think they mean that mikoto is under awakened kakine and if dark matter kakine is over the whole world, than he would be able to win too....
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Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip View Post
Haruue is also special, or rather, she has special circumstances. That experiment required several Espers with similar powers to go out of control and create resonance to boost the ability of one Esper to Level 6. The Level 6 candidate also had to be susceptible to increasing level when out of control, something not common to all Espers. Haruue happened to fit all the requirements. Even the opportunity to unstably reach SYSTEM is not something that all Espers have.

Awakened Kakine may be more powerful than Mikoto 5.5 in her early stages, but he would lose to her in her latter stages. At first, Mikoto merely received a big boost in power, allowing her to launch bolts dozens of times stronger than her usual maximum, as well as the ability to teleport. We can liken this to Kakine's awakening, as he managed to power up his ability considerably and gain more insight into it. However, in her later stages Mikoto 5.5 went beyond that, reaching past her power to conjure a Black Power that had nothing to do with electricity or magnetism.

In the end, Kakine was stuck with his ability. He was unable to go beyond Dark Matter to obtain the same power that allowed Accelerator to paste him. It doesn't matter that he could win against everything in the world, as Gunha referred to that Black Sphere as something not of this world. I stand by my speculation that it is the same stuff that makes up Accelerator's wings and that if Kakine were to face it, he would lose just as hard.
For all we know, anyone could become level 6, but Aleister just only needs a few winners who have powers to his personal taste as Mugino has kind of foreshadowed before. There are plenty of useful powers that haven't been developed past level 3/4 before.

Have we seen any fire user level 5 for example (control over entropy...)

There are a lot of potentially broken powers for level 5 users, but Academy City just hasn't provided the resources. I think they're special because Aleister has special uses for them.

We don't know if Mikoto would be stable or not, we're just relying on Gensei's word which might be a little outdated considering he doesn't know about magic...

All I'm saying is that we're using a lot of shaky details to make the speculations made above.
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Old 2014-04-21, 20:36   Link #2179
Ravagerblade
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^hah I agree dniv, I've thought about a lot of that, I think on the wiki I've said my thoughts on misaka might be stable to reach lvl6.
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Old 2014-04-21, 20:42   Link #2180
ACertainStark
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Are we positive Gensei doesn't know about Magic? didn't Kihara Amata to some degree imply he knew in the Academy Invasion arc when he speculated what Kazakiri was?
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