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Old 2010-10-21, 04:42   Link #221
MrTerrorist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reaper with no name View Post
You know that thing called electricity that makes modern life possible? Well, it's nothing more than a flow of electrons. No more explanation should be required.
So basically her powers just like Mikoto.........

And I thought her powers would be more "exciting".....

Well.... at least i have an idea on what to do with the fanfic i writing.
Thanks for the help.
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Old 2010-10-21, 04:47   Link #222
tsunade666
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Well Mikoto's power is more general a electricity. From the manga Mikoto can change the direction of Mugino's power because it has the same roots. But different in application.

Mikoto is the conventional electricity and much more versatile than Mugino. Mugino is more centered on offense if you ask me. Because her way of using electrons is turning it into a beam a much more centered and destructive form compared to Mikoto's electricity.
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Old 2010-10-21, 09:28   Link #223
giorno
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
The rest of the wall would be applying pressure......stick your leg in soft mud sometime....you can feel the weight of it preventing you from lifting it out....now imagine that were concrete weighing down instead...
wouldn't matter, unless the wall tried to close in on it, which would imply the wall would be moving....

ever tried having a leg buried in the sand at a beach? it would be the same thing: you feel a bit of pressure, but it doesn't really hurt. And in fact, having her leg stuck inside the wall didn't hurt her. It was trying to force it out that hurt her, since there was nothing between her skin and the wall, and concrete has a pretty abrasive surface, it literally peeled her skin off like an orange

that's what i was saying, she was ridiculously dumb, since she could have just teleported half a meter ahead and her leg would have come unstuck without problems...

as for Mugino, her power manipulates electrons. She literally strips electrons from atoms, fix them into a state between wave and particle(i'd like someone to explain what the hell this means, since from the way it's explained[and what little i know about physics], it's either the most useless application of a power ever made, or it bends/breaks the laws of physics, kinda like dark matter), accelerates them and fires them. It's pretty much a mix between a particle beam and a laser beam...

so yeah, it's kinda like a much more focused version of Mikoto's power(i suspect mikoto could also strip electrons, gather, accelerate and fire them in a particle beam by creating/manipulating magnetic fields, though she can't alter the state of electrons, unlike Mugino)

@MrTerrorist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron
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Old 2010-10-21, 09:56   Link #224
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Originally Posted by giorno View Post
wouldn't matter, unless the wall tried to close in on it, which would imply the wall would be moving....

ever tried having a leg buried in the sand at a beach? it would be the same thing: you feel a bit of pressure, but it doesn't really hurt. And in fact, having her leg stuck inside the wall didn't hurt her. It was trying to force it out that hurt her, since there was nothing between her skin and the wall, and concrete has a pretty abrasive surface, it literally peeled her skin off like an orange

that's what i was saying, she was ridiculously dumb, since she could have just teleported half a meter ahead and her leg would have come unstuck without problems...
Seems like you have forgot about the no.1 weak point of the teleportation(of course, in Toaru verse).

This power require a huge load of calculation in your brain. If your calculation got disturbed by a disturbance,pain and etc, the power will become inactive.
Kuroko almost got pommeled when Ellis ambush and grab her ankle. And she can't teleport away due to the pain and trembling.
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Old 2010-10-21, 10:31   Link #225
Ashaman
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Spoiler for the scene in question:


giorno is right. She was just dumb and didn't think. Then again, the lack of pain probably made her slightly complacent.

I can't reallly call her dumb, she just didn't clock on to the damage she may do by trying to force her leg out until it was too late. Everyone makes mistakes.
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Old 2010-10-21, 10:33   Link #226
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plus the wall is broken but a miscalculation. Her skin is way easy to peel off than the broken wall.
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Old 2010-10-21, 10:45   Link #227
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giorno View Post
wouldn't matter, unless the wall tried to close in on it, which would imply the wall would be moving....

ever tried having a leg buried in the sand at a beach? it would be the same thing: you feel a bit of pressure, but it doesn't really hurt. And in fact, having her leg stuck inside the wall didn't hurt her. It was trying to force it out that hurt her, since there was nothing between her skin and the wall, and concrete has a pretty abrasive surface, it literally peeled her skin off like an orange

that's what i was saying, she was ridiculously dumb, since she could have just teleported half a meter ahead and her leg would have come unstuck without problems...

as for Mugino, her power manipulates electrons. She literally strips electrons from atoms, fix them into a state between wave and particle(i'd like someone to explain what the hell this means, since from the way it's explained[and what little i know about physics], it's either the most useless application of a power ever made, or it bends/breaks the laws of physics, kinda like dark matter), accelerates them and fires them. It's pretty much a mix between a particle beam and a laser beam...

so yeah, it's kinda like a much more focused version of Mikoto's power(i suspect mikoto could also strip electrons, gather, accelerate and fire them in a particle beam by creating/manipulating magnetic fields, though she can't alter the state of electrons, unlike Mugino)

@MrTerrorist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron
Yes, Mugino is breaking physics....
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Old 2010-10-21, 14:13   Link #228
Ice Block
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giorno View Post
ever tried having a leg buried in the sand at a beach? it would be the same thing: you feel a bit of pressure, but it doesn't really hurt. And in fact, having her leg stuck inside the wall didn't hurt her. It was trying to force it out that hurt her, since there was nothing between her skin and the wall, and concrete has a pretty abrasive surface, it literally peeled her skin off like an orange
Wrong. Your analogy is flawed because you didn't teleport inside the sandbox, but merely buried your leg under a few feet of sand. Teleporting inside a block of concrete will crush you (as would teleporting into a closed, extremely sturdy hollow box filled with sand -- it's all about pressure). She's lucky that she didn't get any broken bones (or maybe she did and a certain Frog-faced doctor fixed it). See the following (assume everything, including the walls, to be negatively charged):

Here, the red particle in the first cell is teleported into the ninth cell. How is this done? As I've said previously in this thread, teleportation in this universe is similar to hyperspace/slipspace jumps in science fiction. That is, you take a shortcut between points A and B by traveling through higher-dimensional space. For this example, imagine yourself taking the red particle in the first cell out from the screen and shoving it into the 6th cell. (What's actually happening is that the image is already crumpled into 3D ball -- the 2D red particle cannot detect this higher-dimensional shape of its 2D plane -- and teleportation merely allows the particle 'access' to higher dimensions and thus, in this example, take the shortest distance from point A to B in 3 dimensions.)

As we can see, the red particle pushes aside the blue particles. However, we must also understand that the blue particles are also pushing against the red particle (and also, against the black wall). In short, all particles here are exerting force on each other (which is typical of matter), and inserting the red particle into the mix will only serve to increase the pressure in the cell. Now, let's apply this to our solid, concrete wall (blue particles) and soft, sexy leg (red particle). Upon teleporting, the leg would try to push aside the concrete (the volume of concrete which the leg is teleported into doesn't magically disappear). Similarly, the concrete, which has more mass and weighs more than part of a leg, would push on the leg. Basically: She teleports part of her leg into a wall, the wall cracks due to increased pressure caused by making space for her leg, and her leg gets crushed due to the pressure the wall exerted on it (from all directions) as it teleported (think: you simultaneously lift and push down and away different halves of the concrete wall of a house using your leg). What happened as it was explained in the text is that she felt delayed pain, and with her leg crushed, somewhat, the skin had become disfigured and had probably already become infested by spikes of concrete (due to uneven cracking, etc). Teleporting her leg out would have resulted in a less bloody mess, sure (and it will probably save her the trauma of seeing her own leg devoid of skin), but it would still have left her with a crushed, heavily injured leg.

As for Mugino, she basically just 'melts down' stuff. I don't know if it's explained in detail in Volume 15, but I believe her power mainly converts electrons into a form of unstable, destructive matter. Maybe something like those particles that existed right after the Big Bang? Maybe something from this list? And it's mentioned that it can supposedly turn her into some kind of intangible energy, so... Basically, she breaks down electrons and makes use of their constituents as she pleases, though her specialty and favorite is this strange something that can be seen as both a particle and a wave at the same time (thus breaking Complementarity).
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Last edited by Ice Block; 2010-10-22 at 08:14. Reason: Complementarity typo
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Old 2010-10-21, 19:59   Link #229
giorno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
cut
so, to make it short, you're saying that teleport doesn't displace matter, but rather creates a kind of a spatial pocket, and that matter will then try to move back to its original position, correct?

are you sure that would work? i mean, wouldn't air also put pressure on the body? or it would be a weak enough pressure to be negligible?

Quote:
Basically, she breaks down electrons and makes use of their constituents as she pleases
aren't electrons elementary particles, though?
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Old 2010-10-22, 00:56   Link #230
Ice Block
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giorno View Post
so, to make it short, you're saying that teleport doesn't displace matter, but rather creates a kind of a spatial pocket, and that matter will then try to move back to its original position, correct?
Let's put it this way: As I illustrated in the diagrams, teleporting an object will cause it to push aside any matter in the target area. What happens when you try to push on something? That something pushes back on you with equal force. The same thing happens at the object's original position: if it is in a fluid medium, the vacuum created by the teleported object will cause the fluid medium to occupy that lower-pressure area (the higher pressure of the surrounding area will push the fluid to occupy the lower-pressured area). Something like this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by giorno View Post
are you sure that would work? i mean, wouldn't air also put pressure on the body? or it would be a weak enough pressure to be negligible?
Yes. Even now, your body is experiencing about 1 atmosphere's worth of pressure. That is all that the teleporter will be fighting against, and the fluid nature of the atmosphere makes it easier since he/she won't be fighting against much rigidity. Teleporting into a wall, though, will net you more resistance, since you are now also trying to fight against the weight of the whole upper half of the house and the rigidity of the concrete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by giorno View Post
aren't electrons elementary particles, though?
I must have been thinking about something else. Let me correct that: She either energizes or converts electrons into some other kind of elementary particle that can be seen as both a particle and a wave at the same time.
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Old 2010-10-22, 02:11   Link #231
reaper with no name
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Actually, particle-wave duality exists for matter as well. Electrons are just as much a wave as photons; they're just not as wave-like about it, if that makes any sense (then again, as some quantum physicist whose name I forgot once said, "nobody understands quantum mechanics").
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Old 2010-10-22, 03:31   Link #232
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Planck himself said that IIRC.
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Old 2010-10-22, 05:22   Link #233
giorno
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Ok, i'm convinced by Ice Block's explanation about the way teleport works.

@reaper with no name: the point is that according to quantum mechanics all matter can be seen as a particle and a wave at the same time. Electrons can't be either particle or wave, because they're both. So there cannot exist a state between particle and wave(at least, if it exists, it has yet to be discovered). So from the descpition given of her power, either Mugino breaks modern physics, or she makes them act like particle and wave at the same time...which is superfluous, since they naturally act like both particle and wave....

unless as Ice Block said, she just converts them into an unstable particle...then again, considering how she uses her power, what would be the point to that?
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Old 2010-10-22, 08:48   Link #234
Ice Block
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Let me correct a misconception on wave-particle duality. Yes, all matter exhibits both wave and particle properties. However, matter can only be viewed as either one of these two at a time. That is, at some times matter can be observed to behave like a wave, and at some times it can be observed to behave like a particle, but it is impossible to observe and measure it behaving as both at once, despite it exhibiting traits of both in reality. This concept is similar to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, which states that the exact position and momentum of a particle cannot be simultaneously observed. This particular principle of 'one or the other but not both' is called Complementarity. Mugino's power breaks this principle.
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Old 2010-10-28, 23:13   Link #235
Blayne Barudorii
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Alright so a level 5 is currently the most powerful with Level 6 being the theoretical maximum but practically impossible (like traveling faster than light).

We so far see that Mikoto being a Level 5 is basically a walking Angry Thunder God with presumably as much energy capacity as her endurance around throwing lightning bolts as large as those megastorms with just as much controll as an artist painting a tapestry.

So this begs the question:

What the hell is a level 6!?

My guess is that if Kuruko who is a level 4 teleporter can basically transport anything of a modest size roughly 50 meters, or up to three persons including herself with pinpoint accuracy and anti portal cut ability, her level 5 powers likely have to do with how much mass she can move and how far, I wouldn't see moving herself across a continent as being surprising.

So what would her level 6 powers be like? Considering the reverence a level 6 has as being the next big thing and considering how Accelerator is also a Level 5 and considering his powers I would say this:

A Level 6 will probably be similar in terms of scope as this bit of speculation, Kuruko's Level 6 abilities I would speculate as being time travel.

So assuming that would be her Level 6, what would Mikoto's be like?

An even more interesting question, what of Uihara? She can with a liberal interpretation of her power (the maintaining of temperature) control entropy.

Gods Indeed.
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Old 2010-10-29, 03:44   Link #236
shmaster
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To become level 6 is to achieve the SYSTEM (Who is not a go achieving the will of Heaven). Which is like AC's version of Kamijou.
At this point, it seems Accelerator is the only one who can achieve that state.

Lv.6 is beyond the simple concept of power and ability but achieving divine status. There is only two espers right now that has powers that has divine nature, which are Accelerator and Dark Matter.

Though, in a different interpretation, even Lv.6 is just a stepping stone to attain the SYSTEM.
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Old 2010-10-29, 22:09   Link #237
Flere821
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I haven't gotten around to translating this bit from Vol22 Epilogue yet (I'll get to it in a week... kinda busy in Real Life at the moment ^.^; ), but basically 'Kamijou' is beyond the territory that can be defined by '0 and 1', something that cannot be defined by mere words... This status was listed on the 'Tree of Sephiroth' as well according to Aleister.
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Old 2010-10-29, 23:03   Link #238
shmaster
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Aleister is the one beyond 0 and 1. But the Tree of Sephiroth is just an analogy to that status Aleister has attained, not his actual association.
Aleister attained that status through the theory of Secret Chief.

That is not a analogy to Kamijou.
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Old 2010-10-30, 20:52   Link #239
I_am_Kami
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shit. can u imagine the amount of research the author had to do?
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Old 2010-10-30, 20:57   Link #240
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blayne Barudorii View Post
Alright so a level 5 is currently the most powerful with Level 6 being the theoretical maximum but practically impossible (like traveling faster than light).

We so far see that Mikoto being a Level 5 is basically a walking Angry Thunder God with presumably as much energy capacity as her endurance around throwing lightning bolts as large as those megastorms with just as much controll as an artist painting a tapestry.

So this begs the question:

What the hell is a level 6!?

My guess is that if Kuruko who is a level 4 teleporter can basically transport anything of a modest size roughly 50 meters, or up to three persons including herself with pinpoint accuracy and anti portal cut ability, her level 5 powers likely have to do with how much mass she can move and how far, I wouldn't see moving herself across a continent as being surprising.

So what would her level 6 powers be like? Considering the reverence a level 6 has as being the next big thing and considering how Accelerator is also a Level 5 and considering his powers I would say this:

A Level 6 will probably be similar in terms of scope as this bit of speculation, Kuruko's Level 6 abilities I would speculate as being time travel.

So assuming that would be her Level 6, what would Mikoto's be like?

An even more interesting question, what of Uihara? She can with a liberal interpretation of her power (the maintaining of temperature) control entropy.

Gods Indeed.
6 is La Persona Superiore a Dio....the one higher than God AKA SYSTEM

Basically somewhere higher than even Fianma with the fully complete Holy Right
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