AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > Manga & Light Novels > To Aru... Index [LN/M]

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2014-07-11, 18:06   Link #2401
Inept Forum User
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by allfictions View Post
It might be the amount of time, or it might be the number of individuals sharing the same beliefs at the origin of said phases. We really don't have enough info to lean one way or another. The oldest example I can think of in regards to phases is how Archangel Michael supposedly cut the Curtana Original, which means Heaven was already a phase at that point (Early Middle Ages?).
Ah yes, that would be a factor wouldn't it...

Just wondering, how many other historical Phase-interaction points do we definitely know of at the moment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by allfictions View Post
The thing is that, unlike the basis for Turn into a Fairy, Neopaganism is neither widespread, nor influential enough to overturn beliefs like how early Christianity did. In fact, it is rather fringe, with the possible exception of Asatru. A better equivalent would be a spell based on Syncretism, which is much more common.
Less than slightly then?

EDIT: Two more questions.
  • Regarding the Celtic bullets Birdway mentioned in the Kanzaki SS, does anyone know any more information concerning the basis for that? (Edit: Answered elsewhere, Tathlum)
  • Just to be sure, how many magicians (majutsushi) have been featured who might be possible sorcerers (madoushi)?

Last edited by Inept Forum User; 2014-09-19 at 12:32. Reason: Additional questions. One answered elsewhere.
Inept Forum User is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-09-19, 05:52   Link #2402
LevelSeven
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Germany
i will give you guys a question, it actually fits into this topic, it has to do with a different verse, some of you maybe like it, some of you simply ignore it and other are hating it....

but i think it will start a interesting discussion:
Spoiler for question:

what do you guys think?
LevelSeven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-09-19, 08:20   Link #2403
OH&S
Chief Safety Inspector
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Sydney, Australia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inept Forum User View Post
[*]Just to be sure, how many magicians (majutsushi) have been featured who might be possible sorcerers (madoushi)?
Aureolus, Elizalina, Aleister.

Oriana was suspected to be one but she instead wrote grimoires that self destructed on purpose. A defining characteristic of a sorcerer is to pass down information.

All that stuff about the Aztec grimoires escapes my mind atm.
__________________
Toaru Series Calendar: A Certain Unified Calendar - <UPDATED JUNE 2014>

Toaru Series 10 Years: Light Novel Anniversary MAD* - Index:NT10 X asdfmovie

Last edited by OH&S; 2014-09-19 at 08:36.
OH&S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-09-19, 09:46   Link #2404
SimoHalo
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
i will give you guys a question, it actually fits into this topic, it has to do with a different verse, some of you maybe like it, some of you simply ignore it and other are hating it....

but i think it will start a interesting discussion:
Spoiler for question:

what do you guys think?

Hmmm, reality warping can mean many things. Espers for example are reality warpers because they apply their personal reality to the world, but I can't recall if magicians actually warp reality. Is producing fire from your hand reality warping?
SimoHalo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-09-19, 10:05   Link #2405
silverexorcist
Tropes/cliché expert
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: The one place you didn't think of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimoHalo View Post
Hmmm, reality warping can mean many things. Espers for example are reality warpers because they apply their personal reality to the world, but I can't recall if magicians actually warp reality. Is producing fire from your hand reality warping?
Normal magic isn't technically reality warping. It's a power used for those without talent to keep up with those who have it, so it cultivates natural energy and recreates miracles based on past events--hence idol theory. That said, magic CAN be used to warp reality, like Fiamma correcting the the inconsistencies in the world's elements and summoning Gabriel or the very existence of magic gods.
__________________

silverexorcist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-09-19, 11:31   Link #2406
LevelSeven
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimoHalo View Post
Hmmm, reality warping can mean many things. Espers for example are reality warpers because they apply their personal reality to the world, but I can't recall if magicians actually warp reality. Is producing fire from your hand reality warping?
they are doing the same thing as espers, like a pryokinesist esper, he produces also fire from his hands

the only thing is that spers can do that everytime, and magicians needs preparations, in toaru they use legends and the Idol theory...

in naruto it would be the hand seals, the scrolls to summon weapons and animals etc.
but doesnt this remember on all the things magicians from toaru could do (with the correct preparation)?
im sure othinus could have created susanoos and rasengans (the only difference would be that instay of chakra they use mana)
the naruto-verse reality warpig would be limited like esper powers (because of certain limits of their body and energy (chakra)) but still have many applications lik toaru-magic

@silverexorcist
Quote:
Normal magic isn't technically reality warping. It's a power used for those without talent to keep up with those who have it, so it cultivates natural energy and recreates miracles based on past events--hence idol theory. That said, magic CAN be used to warp reality, like Fiamma correcting the the inconsistencies in the world's elements and summoning Gabriel or the very existence of magic gods.
isnt the act of magic the same as esper powers?
i mean, look a that, magic creates fire with preparation based on idols, the "fuel" to create this fire is mana, which "runs" through the created system (the preparation) and warps reality so that the magician can create fire (or water or earth or food or control animals or summon a susanoo or control minds)...
espers are using their own reality and change the rules of a specific part of our reality which allows them to create fire (or other stuff) and the stronger the distortion (means: the more laws are changed by the PR) the more versalite and strong are the espers ability....

of ocurse they have different "roots" but in the end both are warping reality to do what they should do
LevelSeven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-09-19, 12:14   Link #2407
LazyHunter
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Spain
Quote:
Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
they are doing the same thing as espers, like a pryokinesist esper, he produces also fire from his hands

the only thing is that spers can do that everytime, and magicians needs preparations, in toaru they use legends and the Idol theory...

in naruto it would be the hand seals, the scrolls to summon weapons and animals etc.
but doesnt this remember on all the things magicians from toaru could do (with the correct preparation)?
im sure othinus could have created susanoos and rasengans (the only difference would be that instay of chakra they use mana)
the naruto-verse reality warpig would be limited like esper powers (because of certain limits of their body and energy (chakra)) but still have many applications lik toaru-magic
They might produce similar results but the path followed by Styil and a pyrokinetic is very different. Espers impose their distorted view of the world (Personal Reality) on the real wolrd to use their powers , so they technically are a very limited and specific type of reality warping.

Magicians instead refine their life force into mana to use magic, and magic in Index is basically based on Idol theory (with Infection Magic sometimes), gaining power through the imitation of idols, usually using spiritual items. Magic follows different rules than normal phenomena but they still follow rules and only people like Magic Gods (and other extremely powerful magicians like Fiamma or Aleister) could be called reality warpers.

Naruto's Chakra is similar to mana in that is an energy formed by humans by joining mental and physical energy but the process to use that energy is very different. This is all natural to the world since all living things have chakra and nature itself has natural energy that can be harnessed by training.

Ninja and others manipulate the shape and nature of chakra by handseals without the need of other tools or idols. The only thing in Naruto close to reality warping would be the Yin-Yang release that can be used to create things from nothingness like the Six Path Hermit did with the Bijuu or the Izanagi technique.

Handseal and summons wouldn't count as preparations since they can be used in the middle of combat just fine unlike say a magic circle, temple, rune cards, summoning, or the creation of a spiritual tool in Index. Sealing techniques might be similar to runes since they also require drawing characters but we have also seen sealing techniques that only require handseals.

Really just because both series use an energy system like most fantasy series do is not enough to say they are similar. For example you wouldn't say magic in Harry Potter or Fairy Tail is similar to Index's magic, would you?
Quote:
isnt the act of magic the same as esper powers?
i mean, look a that, magic creates fire with preparation based on idols, the "fuel" to create this fire is mana, which "runs" through the created system (the preparation) and warps reality so that the magician can create fire (or water or earth or food or control animals or summon a susanoo or control minds)...
espers are using their own reality and change the rules of a specific part of our reality which allows them to create fire (or other stuff) and the stronger the distortion (means: the more laws are changed by the PR) the more versalite and strong are the espers ability....

of ocurse they have different "roots" but in the end both are warping reality to do what they should do
To be called a reality warper you have to break the rules of reality and magic in Index has weird rules that are not the same as natural phenomena but nothing has been said of them breaking or warping reality as it has been said of espers. Mind you it's possible that they do since magic was developed to copy Gemstones who are espers but until the novels says something like that magic is neither reality warping nor the same as esper powers.
LazyHunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-09-19, 13:10   Link #2408
LevelSeven
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by LazyHunter View Post
They might produce similar results but the path followed by Styil and a pyrokinetic is very different. Espers impose their distorted view of the world (Personal Reality) on the real wolrd to use their powers , so they technically are a very limited and specific type of reality warping.

Magicians instead refine their life force into mana to use magic, and magic in Index is basically based on Idol theory (with Infection Magic sometimes), gaining power through the imitation of idols, usually using spiritual items
i know, this is why i said their "roots" are different but the effect on the real world is the same/similar...

Quote:
Magic follows different rules than normal phenomena but they still follow rules and only people like Magic Gods (and other extremely powerful magicians like Fiamma or Aleister) could be called reality warpers.
this is the reason why is said similar, reality warping doesnt mean that they can do whatever they want, we know that fiamma couldnt do everything, the same with othinus and mostlikely aleister, they change the laws of reality, which allows them to do what they want to do, this is what reality warpers doing and magic is reality warping because it uses rules to create stuff which shouldnt be possible under the laws of normal reality...

Quote:
Naruto's Chakra is similar to mana in that is an energy formed by humans by joining mental and physical energy but the process to use that energy is very different. This is all natural to the world since all living things have chakra and nature itself has natural energy that can be harnessed by training.
toaru has natural energy too, i agree that the usage is incredible different but feng shui has something similar (which is mostlikely the reason for the idea of kishi for the natural-energy-stuff)...

Quote:
Ninja and others manipulate the shape and nature of chakra by handseals without the need of other tools or idols. The only thing in Naruto close to reality warping would be the Yin-Yang release that can be used to create things from nothingness like the Six Path Hermit did with the Bijuu or the Izanagi technique.
creating something from nothing is not the only form of reality warping, look at misaki, she controls human minds and her abilits are also part of the "partially reality warper" category
and izzard was also able to change existing things + his ability was outright said, he changd reality, it was in a manner which magicians also do but normally they are super-restricted because of the rules of their systems (the limits of their idol theory systems)...

Quote:
Handseal and summons wouldn't count as preparations since they can be used in the middle of combat just fine unlike say a magic circle, temple, rune cards, summoning, or the creation of a spiritual tool in Index. Sealing techniques might be similar to runes since they also require drawing characters but we have also seen sealing techniques that only require handseals.
but only because of the fact that they can be quickly finished and invoke a phenomen shouldnt exclude them from being recognized as preparations right?


Quote:
Really just because both series use an energy system like most fantasy series do is not enough to say they are similar. For example you wouldn't say magic in Harry Potter or Fairy Tail is similar to Index's magic, would you?
i would say yes to harry potter but fairy tail "magic" is more like a hybrid of esper and magician

Quote:
To be called a reality warper you have to break the rules of reality and magic in Index has weird rules that are not the same as natural phenomena but nothing has been said of them breaking or warping reality as it has been said of espers. Mind you it's possible that they do since magic was developed to copy Gemstones who are espers but until the novels says something like that magic is neither reality warping nor the same as esper powers.
i think that simply bending the rules is already reality warping
like: creating fire which doesnt hurt you but your enemy, this isnt possible, the rules of the magicians system has changed the rules of reality, the magician has made a minor reality warping...


im not saying that magic is the same as esper powers (they have different roots and laws + different ways energys to warp reality (magic = mana/chi/ki/telesma, espers = aim) but im certain that it is reality warping because of the stuff i mentioned above
LevelSeven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-09-19, 13:28   Link #2409
dniv
I destroy illusions
 
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: AZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
i know, this is why i said their "roots" are different but the effect on the real world is the same/similar...



this is the reason why is said similar, reality warping doesnt mean that they can do whatever they want, we know that fiamma couldnt do everything, the same with othinus and mostlikely aleister, they change the laws of reality, which allows them to do what they want to do, this is what reality warpers doing and magic is reality warping because it uses rules to create stuff which shouldnt be possible under the laws of normal reality...



toaru has natural energy too, i agree that the usage is incredible different but feng shui has something similar (which is mostlikely the reason for the idea of kishi for the natural-energy-stuff)...



creating something from nothing is not the only form of reality warping, look at misaki, she controls human minds and her abilits are also part of the "partially reality warper" category
and izzard was also able to change existing things + his ability was outright said, he changd reality, it was in a manner which magicians also do but normally they are super-restricted because of the rules of their systems (the limits of their idol theory systems)...


but only because of the fact that they can be quickly finished and invoke a phenomen shouldnt exclude them from being recognized as preparations right?




i would say yes to harry potter but fairy tail "magic" is more like a hybrid of esper and magician



i think that simply bending the rules is already reality warping
like: creating fire which doesnt hurt you but your enemy, this isnt possible, the rules of the magicians system has changed the rules of reality, the magician has made a minor reality warping...


im not saying that magic is the same as esper powers (they have different roots and laws + different ways energys to warp reality (magic = mana/chi/ki/telesma, espers = aim) but im certain that it is reality warping because of the stuff i mentioned above
I disagree. Imagine Breaker negates illusions which are in the context of this series as anything that warps reality. I believe that magic and esper powers or any product of a phase is something that warps reality.

Also, magic in this series is way different from magic in any other series. I can't think of any example that comes even close to it. This actually makes sense and is vastly different from other systems. It isn't just arbitrarily defined at nice times for plot convenience. It has rules and it follows it--going beyond the usual concept of Magic A is Magic A... to something much more rigorous than that.

Another big difference between Magic here and Harry Potter Magic is that Magic can't be gamed. In Harry Potter, magic could have been easily gamed if people tried hard enough to do so...
dniv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-09-19, 13:58   Link #2410
dragon1412
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: somewhere in Asia
Quote:
Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
snip
Not really, in Index case, what the magician do is simply taking copy from the phase, which is idol theory,magic take form from an already warped phases, in Esper case, you could say that they truly warp the reality by their own power, no need to mimic after anything.
dragon1412 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-09-19, 14:12   Link #2411
LevelSeven
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon1412 View Post
Not really, in Index case, what the magician do is simply taking copy from the phase, which is idol theory,magic take form from an already warped phases, in Esper case, you could say that they truly warp the reality by their own power, no need to mimic after anything.
was this stated?

we know that magicians are using idol stuff etc but:

lets take the cuthulu magic, it was stated in the SS that it allowed ( only because of different magic systems (fused toghter)) to create something from nothing (literally)...

or izzards case, alchemy has the idea of turning a human into a god through training (magic), and in izzards case it actively gaved him reality warping powers...

or the aztek magician, the light of the venus cant kill anything if we are in the realms of normal reality laws, but because magic bends/twists/temporary replaces the rules of reality, magic is possible...

isnt this proof enough to see that magic is reality warping with rules like esper powers are (despite the different origins)...

@dniv
Quote:
Imagine Breaker negates illusions which are in the context of this series as anything that warps reality. I believe that magic and esper powers or any product of a phase is something that warps reality.
yeah, because it bends the laws of this reality, it doesnt matter how minor or limited (with ohther rules) it is....

Quote:
I disagree.
that harry potter is similar to this storys magic or with everything i said
LevelSeven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-09-19, 17:32   Link #2412
dniv
I destroy illusions
 
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: AZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
was this stated?

that harry potter is similar to this storys magic or with everything i said
Lol, just about Harry Potter. I was too lazy to edit the quote.
dniv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-09-19, 19:09   Link #2413
LazyHunter
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Spain
Quote:
Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
i know, this is why i said their "roots" are different but the effect on the real world is the same/similar...



this is the reason why is said similar, reality warping doesnt mean that they can do whatever they want, we know that fiamma couldnt do everything, the same with othinus and mostlikely aleister, they change the laws of reality, which allows them to do what they want to do, this is what reality warpers doing and magic is reality warping because it uses rules to create stuff which shouldnt be possible under the laws of normal reality...
No, magic has its own laws. That they are different from normal stuff laws doesn't preclude magicians from following them. Until the novel says magic is bending or rewriting the laws of reality that's just a speculation. We have only seen high-level magicians do this like Fiamma correcting a flaw in the universe with the elemental misalignment, Aleister being able to exist on more than 1 place and Othins¡us Magic God powers that allow her to erase and rebuild the world as she pleases. Other magicians are still presumibly following the laws of magic, which are still laws of the universe.
Quote:
toaru has natural energy too, i agree that the usage is incredible different but feng shui has something similar (which is mostlikely the reason for the idea of kishi for the natural-energy-stuff)...
The concept of nature energy of Naruto is far removed from feng shui or leylines which are the only natural energy we have seen so far in Index. It has more in common with the Force from Star Wars (being everywhere and connecting living beings, users being able to feel other people nearby, heightened reflexes, etc...).
Quote:
creating something from nothing is not the only form of reality warping, look at misaki, she controls human minds and her abilits are also part of the "partially reality warper" category
and izzard was also able to change existing things + his ability was outright said, he changd reality, it was in a manner which magicians also do but normally they are super-restricted because of the rules of their systems (the limits of their idol theory systems)...
I never said creating matter from nothing was the only type of reality warping. Read again what I wrote: The only things in Naruto that could be considered reality warping are the power the Hermit of Six Paths used to create the Bijuu and the Izanagi technique. Naruto's ninja are not reality warpers unless you consider every kind os supernatural phenomena in fantasy reality warping and then that's your problem. Don't really know why you bring up Misaki or Izzard since they have nothing to do with the point I was making
Quote:
but only because of the fact that they can be quickly finished and invoke a phenomen shouldnt exclude them from being recognized as preparations right?
A preparation is something that you do beforehand to make ready for something (in Index: making your spiritual tools, drawing your runes or magic circles, summoning and other rituals etc...) Naruto's handseals (which are used also for sealling techniques and summonings) can't really compare to those since they are done seconds before doing the jutsu. You could call them preparations but they are far from the level of Index magicians preparations and more in the level of gestures of shonen manga like Goku drawing his hands back for the Kamehameha.
Quote:
i would say yes to harry potter but fairy tail "magic" is more like a hybrid of esper and magician
You're joking, right? Neither Harry Potter or Fairy Tail magic are close to Index magic system.
Quote:
i think that simply bending the rules is already reality warping
like: creating fire which doesnt hurt you but your enemy, this isnt possible, the rules of the magicians system has changed the rules of reality, the magician has made a minor reality warping...
I already explained above that I know that bending the rules of reality is reality warping. But magic has not been said to bend or break the rules of reality except in a few unique cases I already pointed out. So until Kamachi says magic is reality warping like he did with esper powers magic is not reality warping.
Quote:
im not saying that magic is the same as esper powers (they have different roots and laws + different ways energys to warp reality (magic = mana/chi/ki/telesma, espers = aim) but im certain that it is reality warping because of the stuff i mentioned above
You realize your argument is that magic warps reality because you said so, right?

As I said: Right now the novel hasn't said if all magic is reality warping. Until then it's just speculation in your part.
LazyHunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-09-19, 19:45   Link #2414
silverexorcist
Tropes/cliché expert
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: The one place you didn't think of.
Ugh...I was busy for some hours and I fell behind in the discussion...Well, after reading through everything, I think we should clarify what magic IS, in a general sense. I suggest everyone refers to NT2, since Birdway does a fantastic job of explaining why the magic in Raildex works based on a system like no other series you can reference.

Simply put, magic is performed by gathering natural essence from your surroundings, cultivating it into your body, converting it into 'magical power' (lacking a better word, there...) and then using this power via the user's choice of a medium or outlet. The theories used to convert the essence vary based on religion and such, and there are infinite possibilities for an outlet (like your fingers, a staff, rune cards, so on and so forth). We know the whole cultivation and conversion part are accurate specifically because of Lancis from New Light, who gets that ticklish feeling whenever she's kneading magic within her and laughs randomly.

If anyone has any problems with that brief and somewhat shallow summary, speak up. I at least think that much gets across the general concept.

My point? Basically, magic is what you would get if you converted the natural essence of the world into something else. So it's expected that Imagine Breaker would work on it--it would return magic back into that natural essence. But I really don't think that counts are reality warping. Since untalented people discovered how to do it, it is really similar to how humans have discovered how to warm food up and boil water by using fire. It's a process that gives a result via a series of steps (a system), but reality isn't actually being WARPED.

If I were to get even more technical, I'd point out that idol theory would be contradicted if magic was reality warping. The idea of idol theory is basically having magic spells increase in power due to precedence, following the rules set by a previous case. Think of it like rolling a ball down a flat path toward a specific destination and then rolling that same ball down a rut already dug out heading to the same destination--naturally, the latter gives the desired result more easily and is less likely to roll in a different direction. If reality was being warped, I'd magic as causing all kinds of distortions and inconsistencies in said reality, making the idea that following precedence to get the desired result even more unlikely.

Plus, if we take the religious point of view into account, with the Christians performing miracles based on Christ and the Norse mages using magic reminiscent of the gods themselves, it would only seem more natural, since the gods would basically be natural entities on a high plane of existence.
__________________

silverexorcist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-09-20, 11:15   Link #2415
LevelSeven
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Germany
Spoiler for lazyhunter:


Spoiler for silverexorcist:
LevelSeven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-09-20, 12:06   Link #2416
dniv
I destroy illusions
 
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: AZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
actually it is that they refine through special breathing and other methods their own life force/soul into mana, therefore their is a small theroy that magicians could shorten their lifepan every time they use magic...
Lol, that isn't always true. Or it is, but you can get around it. Aleister gets around it by using tubes.
dniv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-09-20, 13:24   Link #2417
LevelSeven
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by dniv View Post
Lol, that isn't always true. Or it is, but you can get around it. Aleister gets around it by using tubes.
yeah, i was wrong to 50%
bearthing isnt the only way to refine life force into mana, but they (as far as i know) always refine life force into mana, even if the methods are different and even if they use conepts like feng shui ("natural energy"-stuff)
LevelSeven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-09-21, 01:22   Link #2418
dazo
english for dummies level
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
i have some problems when i talking about the magic side(f*ckig cthulhu)..but .who cares...

Quote:
but if you create fire without anythign to burn, which can burn even under water and without oxygen, isnt this outside of the things which normal reality would allow?
i dont think that this two things can be compared...
warm food up and boil water are always and was never outisde of the laws of this world..

but it would be a comepletly different thing to use fire and actually make water colder
if you create something from nothing/or without the usual rules, that count as reality warping because you are avoiding/ignoring the "normals bases(rules)" .

it doesn't matter if you are using the "natural essence of the world", you are changing/using these "essence" for you own plans(view)/your give form to these energies so you change your surroundings.

you just cant create fire under the water without changing the reality(or using science/machines), man
Quote:
actually it is that they refine through special breathing and other methods their own life force/soul into mana, therefore their is a small theroy that magicians could shorten their lifepan every time they use magic...
this can be true under the right bases/concepts...because the mere fact of "using/manipulate" these energies can mean a problem for you inner energy(cost/losses/disruption)..but this depend on the lore...

Quote:
legends arent really natural to being with, like the one with the man inside a whale, he made a cross big enough to kil the animal, this goes agaisnt the laws of mass which are fundamental in normal reality..
and that is the reason of why magic is such a mess.
if they/someone use legends/idols for magic they can create a lot of thing..but the bases for /result of these spells are changing along with the years/versions.

.....they can create a lot of different things with the same concept ...so .i don't see the the point in looking for the "laws of mass "

Quote:
i agree that they would be natural beings in their own place of existence, in their own phase/dimension...
but if they come into our world they cant exist because of the laws which exist here, and if they still do it than they are bending this rules which is reality warping
i can see a problem here..if these "superior beings" come into our phase/reality, they are going to exist(if they really choose to enter by their own volition )...our laws, as lower being, are going to be so crushed that is going to open a black hole/paradox/nothingness/

but i can speculate that if lower beings come into our reality the can exist under special boundaries.
__________________
dazo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-09-21, 11:49   Link #2419
dniv
I destroy illusions
 
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: AZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazo View Post
i can see a problem here..if these "superior beings" come into our phase/reality, they are going to exist(if they really choose to enter by their own volition )...our laws, as lower being, are going to be so crushed that is going to open a black hole/paradox/nothingness/

but i can speculate that if lower beings come into our reality the can exist under special boundaries.
Well, when I was looking at foundation for Mahouka stuff, I actually read that Perry Rhodan was possibly an influence into it... so I went to wikipedia and looked it up to see what it was like and it showed a belief in the onion-shell model of evolution:

It seems possible that Kamachi read Perry Rhodan and was influenced by it and made his own spin on that sort of evolutionary model. After all, Perry Rhodan has sold over one billion copies worldwide and is apparently the most successful science fiction book series ever written. (It was first published in 1961 in Germany and is still ongoing... it sounds interesting.)

However, at least as far as the Onion-shell model of evolution goes: the highest level of power on the scale are the cosmocrats and the chaotarchs (the high powers).

The description of the "high power" which is given is the following:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia description about the high powers
The "high powers" are the highest known life-forms. They live in an unimaginable, distant dimension and have great powers in ruling over lower beings. However they are not omniscient and they are unable to directly interact with lower beings. To enter a regular universe, they have to put on a mortal shape, reducing their powers and sometimes their knowledge/memory. This is known as the transform-syndrome. Due to this, they interact with lower beings rarely and instead enlist individuals, organisations or entire species.
I don't really know if this exact concept was what influenced Kamachi about how the Magic Gods, Aleister, and Angels worked, but it seems at least very similar to what we've already seen hinted.

Aiwass can't speak certain words or communicate certain knowledge because human language can't account for it. Aiwass also mentions that his body has a transformation feature for some purpose.

Ignoring the fact that the above explanation refers to beings that exist on a universal level as opposed to a planetary level... the idea of phases separating the dimensions and the magic gods mentioning that they can't just roam about and may be stuck in that warped phase... implies that there could be a connection/similarity here.

Though this could be coincidence and it just so happens that all attempts to make something more cool than just pure power ends up having to exist in some parallel dimension or "phase..."
dniv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-09-21, 12:56   Link #2420
dazo
english for dummies level
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Quote:
To enter a regular universe, they have to put on a mortal shape, reducing their powers and sometimes their knowledge/memory. This is known as the transform-syndrome. Due to this, they interact with lower beings rarely and instead enlist individuals, organisations or entire species.
this is when they want to preserve the "order" in the lower universe/phase/dimension..because they don't want to overwrite the "world"

if they choose to enter in their full glory/powers/reality...they are going to destroy reality.(its like destroying/forcing a glass bottle through/by pressure)

aiwass can enter in the first part + she is "summoned" by aleisteir ,so she is under the lower world/dimension law(or she adjusting herself to this world.... )
Quote:
Ignoring the fact that the above explanation refers to beings that exist on a universal level as opposed to a planetary level... the idea of phases separating the dimensions and the magic gods mentioning that they can't just roam about and may be stuck in that warped phase... implies that there could be a connection/similarity here.
idk... a magic god can exist in the normal world..because you can "become" a magic god through the normal world...but there could be some issues when you try to display your power...too many magic gods power/realities are going to interfere/ overwrite your actions.

about the " magic god phase"..i believe that there are more phases than the magic god phase or the phases that othinus destroyed.... and, i am not talking about "reals gods"/angel phase...but a/few dimension under the direct control of god/gods/or godless (like the normal world..but without the interference of the magic gods powers)
__________________
dazo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
hard science, magic

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 22:07.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.