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Old 2011-04-05, 01:55   Link #481
judasmartel
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If there's one thing to know, then it's that it's still unknown how can espers improve their power levels. However, it has been known that according to the Parameter List, all espers can only reach a certain maximum level in which an esper is listed to obtain.

This means that if the List says that you can only reach level 0, you can't go any further.

http://toarumajutsunoindex.wikia.com...Parameter_List
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Old 2011-04-05, 04:30   Link #482
zaeraal
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The list should not say that you can be max a lv 0, because lv 0 should not exist. hovewer there can be written that you can only reach lv 1, but to do so, there are needed more resources, than AC is willing to give you (so you end up stuck on level 0).
To advance a level, you need AC curriculum (drugs, hypnosis, electric signals stimulating brain...), it's impossible to advance level without it*, but seriously, if it was that simple, then AC would not have to spare their resources. AC has a huge amounts of money*, technology, etc, even creating some complex (on molecular structure) drugs should be a piece of cake. As for my opinion, there is something MUCH more in the curriculum, something very special (maybe something not of this world) that is difficult to create, calculate... In novel vol 22, was mentioned that Rikou can ignore "talent" and "affinity" of espers if she will become a lv 5, affinity most likely reffers to type of abilities you can end up with, the talent is the "max level" you were born with. But here comes the thing - AC curriculum affects personal reality, can bring different powers depending on affinity (note project mayday of darkness) and advance levels, but can go only to the max level set by talent. Rikou on lv 5 also affects personal reality, can bring different powers ignoring affinity and advance levels ignoring the talent (max level). Both AC and Rikou ability affects personal reality, but AC seriously falls behind. If it is really that simple, just some drugs, electric signals and hypnosis to affect personal reality, then by using different methods, it should be posible to affect it more, but no one seems to able to do that, no matter how many crazy scientists there are and how far they push their research. It's more like it's impossible for different reason. And here is my solution : like mentioned above, i think AC curriculum contains some "substance" that is really difficult to make even for AC, it's the real thing that "makes espers", it's the thing that brings out people powers, the thing that affects personal reality, but that substance has only a certain level of compatibility with humans, for example someone with 5% compatibility would be lv 0, 20% would be lv 1... some 90% lv 5, 100% maybe someone who can attain lv 6. That substance itself is a raw material, that needs outside help (drugs, hypnosis, electric stimulation) to correctly affect esper, to bring out desired powers, advance esper in a certain direction. Any other sugestions are welcome.

*NOTE1 - Rikou can't advance to a lv 5, unless she gives herself to AC
*NOTE2 - even when Misaka or Vento went rampage and destroyed most of AC facilities, they just rebuilded them like nothing.
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Old 2011-04-05, 05:36   Link #483
Chaos2Frozen
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I think it's two way; one is how much resource needs to be spend on you, and the second is your own actual potential. People are different, some times you're just no cut out for certain things.
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Old 2011-04-05, 07:45   Link #484
zaeraal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
I think it's two way; one is how much resource needs to be spend on you, and the second is your own actual potential. People are different, some times you're just no cut out for certain things.
Yes i understand that people aren't cut for everything, but i was trying to point out that Rikou can change the personal reality ignoring the "own actual potential", while AC can only change it according to the talent/potential, while both do the same thing - affect/change personal reality. You should know how many crazy scientists are there - entire Kihara family, Aleister.. and yet they can't bypass the potential/talent thing. I was trying to put an idea of what is the reason they can't do it.
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Old 2011-04-05, 08:02   Link #485
Cosmic Eagle
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
if the knight leader did really said it but but norse myth closest to that name is Thorim. It's related to Thor.
Thor AFAIK was not beaten by any hidden blade. He was mutually slain by the Midgard Serpent.
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Old 2011-04-05, 08:06   Link #486
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaeraal View Post
The list should not say that you can be max a lv 0, because lv 0 should not exist. hovewer there can be written that you can only reach lv 1, but to do so, there are needed more resources, than AC is willing to give you (so you end up stuck on level 0).
To advance a level, you need AC curriculum (drugs, hypnosis, electric signals stimulating brain...), it's impossible to advance level without it*, but seriously, if it was that simple, then AC would not have to spare their resources. AC has a huge amounts of money*, technology, etc, even creating some complex (on molecular structure) drugs should be a piece of cake. As for my opinion, there is something MUCH more in the curriculum, something very special (maybe something not of this world) that is difficult to create, calculate... In novel vol 22, was mentioned that Rikou can ignore "talent" and "affinity" of espers if she will become a lv 5, affinity most likely reffers to type of abilities you can end up with, the talent is the "max level" you were born with. But here comes the thing - AC curriculum affects personal reality, can bring different powers depending on affinity (note project mayday of darkness) and advance levels, but can go only to the max level set by talent. Rikou on lv 5 also affects personal reality, can bring different powers ignoring affinity and advance levels ignoring the talent (max level). Both AC and Rikou ability affects personal reality, but AC seriously falls behind. If it is really that simple, just some drugs, electric signals and hypnosis to affect personal reality, then by using different methods, it should be posible to affect it more, but no one seems to able to do that, no matter how many crazy scientists there are and how far they push their research. It's more like it's impossible for different reason. And here is my solution : like mentioned above, i think AC curriculum contains some "substance" that is really difficult to make even for AC, it's the real thing that "makes espers", it's the thing that brings out people powers, the thing that affects personal reality, but that substance has only a certain level of compatibility with humans, for example someone with 5% compatibility would be lv 0, 20% would be lv 1... some 90% lv 5, 100% maybe someone who can attain lv 6. That substance itself is a raw material, that needs outside help (drugs, hypnosis, electric stimulation) to correctly affect esper, to bring out desired powers, advance esper in a certain direction. Any other sugestions are welcome.

*NOTE1 - Rikou can't advance to a lv 5, unless she gives herself to AC
*NOTE2 - even when Misaka or Vento went rampage and destroyed most of AC facilities, they just rebuilded them like nothing.
The curriculum is fundamentally based on Crowley's Thelema theories. The ESPers besides Accelerator and Kakine are just icing to power his AIM Angels, which are his real focus.

It isn't really science advancing those kids. It's more like spiritual mysticism and magic dressed up as science.
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Old 2011-04-06, 02:31   Link #487
Flere821
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Thor AFAIK was not beaten by any hidden blade. He was mutually slain by the Midgard Serpent.
Wikia said it was 'Thororm's formula', not Thorim. The Chinese used the kanji for 'Solomon' before it turned out to be wrong, since the two sounded similar.
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Old 2011-04-07, 10:44   Link #488
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flere821 View Post
Wikia said it was 'Thororm's formula', not Thorim. The Chinese used the kanji for 'Solomon' before it turned out to be wrong, since the two sounded similar.
The kana sounds like Salome but she's not Norse or a warrior....

It's actually ソーロルム lit. Sororum....(Sauron? )

Then again, he can use his range manipulation combat pattern magic to make a mini black-hole.....God knows where he got that particular technique from....

The rest like "Cutting power", "Weapon Mass" and "Speed".....many examples can be found in legends across the world (Eg; Durandal for cutting) but the black hole is unfamiliar...
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Old 2011-04-07, 13:33   Link #489
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
The kana sounds like Salome but she's not Norse or a warrior....

It's actually ソーロルム lit. Sororum....(Sauron? )
But that also fits Thororm.
According to the research that I have read (for example this) The name actually comes from one of the Iceland's sagas, I think that it's actually the "Gunnlaugs saga ormstungu" but jwiki doesn't have good info about it.
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Old 2011-04-07, 14:11   Link #490
Cosmic Eagle
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Originally Posted by Okashira View Post
But that also fits Thororm.
According to the research that I have read (for example this) The name actually comes from one of the Iceland's sagas, I think that it's actually the "Gunnlaugs saga ormstungu" but jwiki doesn't have good info about it.
http://www.sagadb.org/gunnlaugs_saga_ormstungu.en

Yeah...you are right. Thororm is from this particular saga.
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Old 2011-04-12, 08:37   Link #491
Cosmic Eagle
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So all this Kabbalistic background has me thinking....what world (Briah, Atziluth etc) would Fianma with a complete Holy Right be of?

And how would Aiwass and the other AIM Angels fit in, seeing as they appear to be anomalous?
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Old 2011-04-12, 12:48   Link #492
Chaos2Frozen
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I'm not confident enough in the tree of life to guess Fiamma's postion when he attains the status of 'Higher than God'.

But there's a good chance that Aiwass and Kazakiri aren't in any rankings at all since they fall under materials that God has no control over. Note that this doesn't necessarily mean that they're above God, it's just that they can't be defined.
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Old 2011-04-14, 08:44   Link #493
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
I'm not confident enough in the tree of life to guess Fiamma's postion when he attains the status of 'Higher than God'.

But there's a good chance that Aiwass and Kazakiri aren't in any rankings at all since they fall under materials that God has no control over. Note that this doesn't necessarily mean that they're above God, it's just that they can't be defined.
Fianma isn't above God with the complete Holy Right for sure. Else he wouldn't have been beaten...God's regard maybe, like Michael but not anything exceeding the Ein Sof.
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Old 2011-04-15, 06:25   Link #494
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Fianma isn't above God with the complete Holy Right for sure. Else he wouldn't have been beaten...God's regard maybe, like Michael but not anything exceeding the Ein Sof.
Hmm, I was under the impression that he did attain the status of [La Persona superiore a Dio] for a brief moment to 'fix the world'... But going back and check, I guess the World hasn't been fixed yet?
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Old 2011-04-15, 07:50   Link #495
Cosmic Eagle
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Hmm, I was under the impression that he did attain the status of [La Persona superiore a Dio] for a brief moment to 'fix the world'... But going back and check, I guess the World hasn't been fixed yet?
No..no, he attained something akin to the Son of God....ie a lower Emanation, not the actual infinite Ein Sof. The nearest being to that currently is Aiwass and even then, it is still a long, long way away.

the Dio in "La Persona Superiore a Dio" apparently refers to one of God's Emanations. Aleister for example, is above that. So is Touma. And it is also stated that Fianma even in his La Persona form, is still on the Tree of Life, not yet ascended beyond its descriptive encompassment.
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Old 2011-04-18, 05:53   Link #496
Chaos2Frozen
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Now that Season 2 is over I've started reading Vol 14 proper, I just need to clarify some stuff.


1. Lividia said that God's Right Seat members weren't not successful in completely removing their Original Sin, so do this mean that they could still technically use human magic, but just not the more complex ones?

2. Terra's control over his flour weapon, does that count as a Angel class spell as well? I know it says that it's a 'byproduct' of his [Execution of Light] but what does that mean? Is the ability to control flour strictly an Angelic spell that normal humans can't wield because of it's Holy properties? Likewise Vento's Air hammer seems normal magic enough... Or maybe it's because of their link to the Archangels to allow them to wield the elements?


3. At the end with Stiyl and Lividia, I'm not exactly clear of the theory of God becoming an Angel to visit Earth. But if I'm not mistaken, they think that since and Angel (Lucifer) cannot possibly be equal to God, the Right Seat of God is then somehow a 'device' or 'method' or 'thing', that allows the being that sits on it to be equal to God, but not exactly God since humans cannot become God? And from there they can attain La Persona Superiore a Dio?

4. So 103 000 Grimoires of Index only covers all of human magic? Anything outside it is beyond normal human realm?
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Old 2011-04-18, 11:53   Link #497
tsunade666
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answers

1. God's right seat manage to take the original sins away but not entirely but that process alone makes them closer to divine. They can use magic attune or correspond to their guardian angel or more like the element. Vento is an example. He manage to make the queen's fleet her own spell to use. Queen's fleet is the combination of wind and water and by .... I don't know how to explain. But the wind element of the queen's fleet allow it for Vento to control it.

2 terra's control over flour is not angel class. He just use the flour for the medium. I forgot the whole reason but it something with the body of christ? the angel class spell is the power to arrange the hierarchy of things or the execution of light. Since he is terra his element is earth. the flour I think is also connected to it but I'm not sure. The only sure is that it's only a medium. The angel class spell is the execution of light. And he needs flour because of it's meaning though for the meaning I forgot what it is.

3 this one is also twisted when I'm reading it. The aim of god's right seat is the right seat of the lord. Since the god hasn't fully materialize in this realm they don't know his full extent even though they believe he did sacrifice himself in the cross. They aim for Micheal because the title of meaning of right for them is equal and the god wouldn't give it to anyone unworthy. For their own believe they believe that right seat = god so they aim to attain the level of who's seating in the right and by obtaining the same level they will go into higher realm.

4.... this I don't know. If index doesn't have any clue about magic outside of human realm then he shouldn't know divine punishment plus that doesn't explain her crimson wings.
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Old 2011-04-18, 12:12   Link #498
StaticLord
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And he needs flour because of it's meaning though for the meaning I forgot what it is.
Flour-->Bread-->Body of Christ
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Old 2011-04-18, 12:47   Link #499
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
answers

1. God's right seat manage to take the original sins away but not entirely but that process alone makes them closer to divine. They can use magic attune or correspond to their guardian angel or more like the element. Vento is an example. He manage to make the queen's fleet her own spell to use. Queen's fleet is the combination of wind and water and by .... I don't know how to explain. But the wind element of the queen's fleet allow it for Vento to control it.
Vento can control the Queen's Fleet because Wind is symbolic to sailing.

So their control over the particular elements is due to their link to the respective Angels and so it doesn't violate the normal magic rule?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
4.... this I don't know. If index doesn't have any clue about magic outside of human realm then he shouldn't know divine punishment plus that doesn't explain her crimson wings.
She already said that there's nothing in her knowledge about Divine Punishment, and that it's supposedly impossible for humans to do.

So from this we can conclude that if Terra knows something that Index doesn't, it's got to be from Knowledge of the Angels.

Which begs the question how in heavens did God's Right Seat got their hands on all those information?
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Old 2011-04-18, 13:07   Link #500
tsunade666
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Index at least got a clue about divine punishment even though she doesn't know how it can be cast but she know from touma's description on how it works.
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