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Old 2011-04-18, 13:13   Link #501
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
Index at least got a clue about divine punishment even though she doesn't know how it can be cast but she know from touma's description on how it works.
True, but I still think it doesn't change that magicial grimoires apparently holds no spells or knowledge of non-human magic.

About her crimson wings, we probably need to ask someone that have read that scene in detail... But I don't think it's related to Angels...
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Old 2011-04-18, 20:28   Link #502
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
She already said that there's nothing in her knowledge about Divine Punishment, and that it's supposedly impossible for humans to do.
The she never would know how to prevent to trigger the spell on her, she has a relative knowledge but no the total one such as the mechanism behind the theory.


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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
So from this we can conclude that if Terra knows something that Index doesn't, it's got to be from Knowledge of the Angels.

Which begs the question how in heavens did God's Right Seat got their hands on all those information?
Index's knowledge barely can be called from this world to begin with. Heck, she even isn't treated as human by Laura and a normal magician doubted she really is one.

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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
4. So 103 000 Grimoires of Index only covers all of human magic? Anything outside it is beyond normal human realm?
Yes and No.
She has the knowledge about the magic which is outside the human realm, but with gaps so she needs to fill the gaps of knowledge.


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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
About her crimson wings, we probably need to ask someone that have read that scene in detail... But I don't think it's related to Angels...
During that time Stiyl said that it's angel wings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
4. So 103 000 Grimoires of Index only covers all of human magic? Anything outside it is beyond normal human realm?
Yes and No.
She has the knowledge about the magic which is outside the human realm, but with gaps so she needs to fill the gaps of knowledge. And Fiamma did so since the moment he got the long distance artifact from U.K.
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Old 2011-04-18, 23:40   Link #503
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
2 terra's control over flour is not angel class. He just use the flour for the medium. I forgot the whole reason but it something with the body of christ? the angel class spell is the power to arrange the hierarchy of things or the execution of light. Since he is terra his element is earth. the flour I think is also connected to it but I'm not sure. The only sure is that it's only a medium. The angel class spell is the execution of light. And he needs flour because of it's meaning though for the meaning I forgot what it is.
Flour is the body of Christ, the wine is the blood of Christ. Through the symbolism with Christ, the Execution of Light can be performed.

Execution of Light function by bending the meaning of the crucifixion of the Christ. Christ, who is the son of the god, was killed by human according to the gospel. In other words, human killed someone who is above them, thus there is a shift of hierarchy. By expanding on this single point alone, Terra can frerly manipulate the hierarchy of everything.
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Old 2011-04-19, 00:03   Link #504
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@shmaster (or flere, or anyone actually...)

I just need to confirm one thing; is God's Right Seat's manipulation of Elements considered non-human magic? If so how is it different from the many other magicians that uses Elements for their attacks?

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Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Index's knowledge barely can be called from this world to begin with. Heck, she even isn't treated as human by Laura and a normal magician doubted she really is one.
Laura's attitude to Index is for her role as a literal Walking Library, and so she considers her a 'thing'.

I don't know if it's from 'this world', but it's fair to say that her knowledge covers all known magic theories that humans have used before.

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Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Yes and No.
She has the knowledge about the magic which is outside the human realm, but with gaps so she needs to fill the gaps of knowledge.
Some yes, but what I'm suggesting is whether or not those knowledge not known to her is considered something else.

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Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post

During that time Stiyl said that it's angel wings.
IS Angel wings, or LIKE Angel wings, there's a big difference in the minor details.

To an untrained eye, Accelerator's wings were considered 'Angel' wings to some, but the devil is in the details.
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Old 2011-04-19, 03:07   Link #505
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I just need to confirm one thing; is God's Right Seat's manipulation of Elements considered non-human magic? If so how is it different from the many other magicians that uses Elements for their attacks?
The use of element in itself is nothing special. What is special about the GRS is their methods of using the element. They might be doing the same thing, but under a separate methodology, and ultimately produce a greater effect.

Like you can control the Queen's Fleet with normal magical means, but how the God's Right Seat does is completely different. Vent can attune the fleet to herself alone and attack whoever she wants without the Rosario (also, Vent is the one who wrote the Rosario formula).
You can even interpret that for normal people to use the Rosario results in breaking their mind is because the Rosario is a GRS formula, that normal human couldn't handle.

Same as Fiamma, with the very little original sin in himself, he is be able to use some fire based magic. Then by the theory that when one element is moved, all elements will be effected as all elements are linked. Thus with the output of Holy Right, he can controls all four elements by just tweaking with fire alone.
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Old 2011-04-19, 04:15   Link #506
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
@shmaster (or flere, or anyone actually...)

I just need to confirm one thing; is God's Right Seat's manipulation of Elements considered non-human magic? If so how is it different from the many other magicians that uses Elements for their attacks?

[...]

IS Angel wings, or LIKE Angel wings, there's a big difference in the minor details.

To an untrained eye, Accelerator's wings were considered 'Angel' wings to some, but the devil is in the details.
1) GRS's magic is stated to be beyond what human mages can handle, and into the realms of (here's the important part) - Angels and KINGS (ref Vol14, one of the Intermissions/Between the Lines). Beyond human limitations? Yes. Impossible for humans to cast? Not necessarily. The reason why GRS cannot use magic is because Adam and Eve ate some Fruit of Knowledge, and thus cannot use spells that's bound by human knowledge without the Original Sin that accompanies it.

2) The narrative says it IS crimson angel wings which Index has, although I concede the possibility of the Chinese version getting it wrong.
Accelerator's wings have been mentioned as similar to a Fallen Angel's wings too, come to think of it...
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Old 2011-04-19, 05:43   Link #507
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So just to clarify again; without (most of) the original sin, God's Right Seat members cannot use magic that uses human theories and knowledge, but they can sort of use 'Divine' knowledge to replicate them? Particularly their respective Elements? Cause it's been bugging me for some time why Vento's air hammer is considered Angel Class spell when it doesn't seem all that different from what a normal magician might produce with Wind magic. Similiarly Terra's control over flour doesn't feel very 'Divine' to me despite it's Holy property- In essense it's just manipulating the shape of a matter.

So because they're using Angel knowledge, their Elemental spells are supposedly more powerful?
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Old 2011-04-19, 09:00   Link #508
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IS Angel wings, or LIKE Angel wings, there's a big difference in the minor details.
Actually it say it IS Angel wings in the japanesse version as well, apage 28.
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Old 2011-04-19, 21:35   Link #509
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
So just to clarify again; without (most of) the original sin, God's Right Seat members cannot use magic that uses human theories and knowledge, but they can sort of use 'Divine' knowledge to replicate them? Particularly their respective Elements? Cause it's been bugging me for some time why Vento's air hammer is considered Angel Class spell when it doesn't seem all that different from what a normal magician might produce with Wind magic. Similiarly Terra's control over flour doesn't feel very 'Divine' to me despite it's Holy property- In essense it's just manipulating the shape of a matter.

So because they're using Angel knowledge, their Elemental spells are supposedly more powerful?
Do bear in mind in Vento's case she was either playing around, or severely injured by the Artificial Heaven to the point she can't bring out her pull power. In Terra's case, he was still refining his techniques IIRC, and too blinded by his arrogance to do anything. It's possible what they've shown are only spells that is performing on the level of human spells and haven't shown what they are really capable of.

Or it might be something like lack of incantations to use their attacks when others like Sherry and Agnese needs them to bring out their more powerful moves.
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Old 2011-04-19, 22:20   Link #510
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
So just to clarify again; without (most of) the original sin, God's Right Seat members cannot use magic that uses human theories and knowledge, but they can sort of use 'Divine' knowledge to replicate them?
This is an actually a very good way to put it.
Like Terra's flour, he isn't controlling the shape, but achieve the the same effect as controlling the shape through Execution of Light.
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Old 2011-04-20, 21:01   Link #511
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The red wings of Index recall me the 3 Choir, the Thrones of Ophan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophan

Which are close related to red and fire.
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Old 2011-04-21, 10:04   Link #512
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Originally Posted by Flere821 View Post
1) GRS's magic is stated to be beyond what human mages can handle, and into the realms of (here's the important part) - Angels and KINGS (ref Vol14, one of the Intermissions/Between the Lines). Beyond human limitations? Yes. Impossible for humans to cast? Not necessarily. The reason why GRS cannot use magic is because Adam and Eve ate some Fruit of Knowledge, and thus cannot use spells that's bound by human knowledge without the Original Sin that accompanies it.

2) The narrative says it IS crimson angel wings which Index has, although I concede the possibility of the Chinese version getting it wrong.
Accelerator's wings have been mentioned as similar to a Fallen Angel's wings too, come to think of it...
I have to check the text again to be sure but IIRC it says the wings of an Angel and the Sword of Frey....

So I think she actually used a spell that let her use Telesma for a while...
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Old 2011-04-21, 10:07   Link #513
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Now that Season 2 is over I've started reading Vol 14 proper, I just need to clarify some stuff.


1. Lividia said that God's Right Seat members weren't not successful in completely removing their Original Sin, so do this mean that they could still technically use human magic, but just not the more complex ones?
Never really understood how Fianma can have Original Sin when his body also houses the Holy Right....
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Old 2011-04-21, 13:38   Link #514
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I always wondered about Index's wings.

My theory is that she read the lambskin info from her connection with Fiamma, and that was what allowed her to get those wings.

How feasible is that?
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Old 2011-04-21, 13:49   Link #515
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It's possible, but I prefer to see the actual passage for the little details before saying anything definitive.

Like what do the wings do? Are they a form of weapon like Misha's and Accelerators and Kakine? If so did she create this specific type of wings to counter Stiyl's rune magic? etc.
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Old 2011-04-21, 14:10   Link #516
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She uses it the same Accelerator uses it when fighting Touma. Though the fight of Styl and Pendex is pretty one sided defense and offense.
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Old 2011-04-21, 14:33   Link #517
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It's possible, but I prefer to see the actual passage for the little details before saying anything definitive.

Like what do the wings do? Are they a form of weapon like Misha's and Accelerators and Kakine? If so did she create this specific type of wings to counter Stiyl's rune magic? etc.
She used thoseswords to overwhelm Stiyl's rune magic since his style is Norse M. based.

Also, Styil was running away while setting all kind of traps from Necessarius Church (can't remember the name), using magic and illusions. Total deffense for Stiyl while running for his money.
As for Index... think of this situation: You're an above average esper fighting Accelerator, you have no chance to win fighting face to face to begin with and to make worse your situation he suddenly goes Black Wings while chasing you.

Thats how Styil was against Index.
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Old 2011-04-22, 00:32   Link #518
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For some reason I couldn't get into the mood of reading vol 15, so I jumped straight into Vol 16, which seriously felt like the single longest fight ever

Question; The Divine Mother's Mercy sounds more complicating than I've initially thought. At first I thought it just allows Aqua to use normal magic but it seems it covers alot of things like for example the red wire execution explosive thingy the Amakusa used. So my question is this- What exactly does the Divine Mother's Mercy do? If it completely removes any negetive side effects of anything, does it mean Aqua will never get tired?


Second question, or more like a speculation- We know from all the evidence that an Esper's control of power is base on his or her Personal Reality which in turn is base on their train of thoughts. So what do you guys think about a subplot where after seeing how despite being a level 5 Mikoto is powerless to save Touma, her personal reality was crushed and she can't use her powers? After all, if falling in love is a strong enough 'input' to shake her personal reality, then it stands to reason that being heartbroken would havve an even more powerful effect.


I thought it was interesting that to get to a Level 5 status, one has to be in a 'perfect' mental capacity- no traumas or self imposed restrictions. But for a Level 5 to 'grow', they have to suffer some kind of major setback. Accelerator's situation is kinda obvious, but I too considered that Mugino have gotten a new 'power' wit her cyborg parts- being able to tap into electronics. I think the author is far too soft to give her any mortal wounds, so a mental block would be the next best thing to see a grow.

And if she does grow, and a new 'input' is being use for her personal reality, maybe we'll get to see more use of her powers; technically she could do something with the electromagnetic spectrum and control various radiation. After all, Electromagnetism is one of the four fundamental forces of nature, that's got to count for something. Even if it's nothing that fanciful, there's alot of potential with her Iron Sand attacks- they could also be used as a barrier like Gaara (Naruto) or a suit of armor like Greed (FMA).


P.S - In real life, where does it mention that Gabriel's symbol is the Moon? I can't seem to find anything that says that... Also if this is true, what are the other symbols of the remaining three Archangels?
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Old 2011-04-22, 01:09   Link #519
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1.- Divine mother mercy basically means you can't be affected by curses, sins or taints in general the reason why he can cast normal magic is because that symbolism means he is a sinner due to "the original sin" and thanks to divine mother mercy he can pass it.

2.-No, see all Misaka clones all their personalities are different yet the same power, is more like "reality marbel" from Nasuverse, thats your origin and something you can't really change.

3.- Gabriel is often associated with the Moon, water.
Michael is often associated with Sun, fire.
Raphael is often associated with Mercury, air.
Uriel is often associated with Uranus, metals and earth.
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Old 2011-04-22, 01:25   Link #520
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2.-No, see all Misaka clones all their personalities are different yet the same power, is more like "reality marbel" from Nasuverse, thats your origin and something you can't really change.
You misunderstood; The general power doesn't change of course; but what i meant is how the esper uses his/her powers is base on their eprsonal reality which in turn is base on their thoughts. Hence the point of the Mayday of darkness project with inputs a set of thoughts from Accelerator to another esper. This is from New Testament where it's said that both girls receive a part of Accelerator's personality along with his calculations.

So what i'm suggesting is, if Mikoto seriously change her outlook on life and everything, maybe it would affect her personal reality and open up new ways to use her electricity. Ways that she never thought or even never wanted to use before.


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3.- Gabriel is often associated with the Moon, water.
Michael is often associated with Sun, fire.
Raphael is often associated with Mercury, air.
Uriel is often associated with Uranus, metals and earth.
I'm not doubting you or anything, but can you point to me the source for further reference?
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