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Old 2011-06-20, 07:37   Link #541
Inept Forum User
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Question

I have two questions regarding the Imagine Breaker's interaction with supernatural entities:
  1. If the Imagine Breaker came into contact with a being that was of flesh and blood but with innate supernatural powers (e.g. dragon) , am I correct in thinking in would just negate the supernatural aspect rather than killing them outright?
  2. If an AIM entity was housed within a non-supernaturally created vessel, biological or mechanical, how much protection would this offer?
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Old 2011-06-20, 07:47   Link #542
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inept Forum User View Post
I have two questions regarding the Imagine Breaker's interaction with supernatural entities:
  1. If the Imagine Breaker came into contact with a being that was of flesh and blood but with innate supernatural powers (e.g. dragon) , am I correct in thinking in would just negate the supernatural aspect rather than killing them outright?
  2. If an AIM entity was housed within a natural vessel, biological or mechanical, how much protection would this offer?
1. You mean that the dragon is constructed with magic or that the dragon is able to use magic? If it is constructed with magic then it should disappear while if the process inside of it is not an important function for his life the process will stop , but the dragon will be still alive.
2. the AIM entity will be stopped , but the natural vessel will continue , but here are also 2 options , 1st one: the natural vessel is created from the AIM entity , 2nd: they have no connection with each other. the 1st scenario: it will be stopped , 2nd scenario: the natural vessel won't stop , only the AIM entity will stop
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Old 2011-06-20, 07:58   Link #543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inept Forum User View Post
[*]If the Imagine Breaker came into contact with a being that was of flesh and blood but with innate supernatural powers (e.g. dragon) , am I correct in thinking in would just negate the supernatural aspect rather than killing them outright?
I'll give you an easier example- An Esper Or a Saint would also fit the bill.

It's a being of flesh and blood, yet it has an innate supernatural power.


BUT!!!!! If the supernatural power is what's keeping the being alive, then of course Imagine Breaker would kill it - for example, a Golem.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Inept Forum User View Post
If an AIM entity was housed within a non-supernaturally created vessel, biological or mechanical, how much protection would this offer?
Misha was afraid to touch Touma's hand despite being in the body of a Human girl.

Now, we don't know if she's just taking precaution, but it does imply that the human vessel is no protection.
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Old 2011-06-20, 08:17   Link #544
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inept Forum User View Post
I have two questions regarding the Imagine Breaker's interaction with supernatural entities:
  1. If the Imagine Breaker came into contact with a being that was of flesh and blood but with innate supernatural powers (e.g. dragon) , am I correct in thinking in would just negate the supernatural aspect rather than killing them outright?
  2. If an AIM entity was housed within a non-supernaturally created vessel, biological or mechanical, how much protection would this offer?
Well there are several cases of this already happening - he touched Mikoto and she was unable to produce any electricity comming from her body.
When Index was in pain due to the memory_something spell he could not stop it just by touching her, he had to directly touch the spell seal.
During ww3 arc he touched LO and removed part of her pain, but could not lift it completly.
During the fight with Aureolus Izzard he was able to dispel his stuff just by touching his own body.
He was able to cancell the 40km fire sword too, but after several seconds, due to the amount of energy it had.

Conclusion: he can cancell the effects of one-time spells/attacks, but not sustained spells/attacks, unless he touches the source of supernatural energy directly. (If he can keep canceling without getting hurt sustained spells/attacks deppends on the amount of energy cancelled vs amount of energy emited)

So your first case: he would not be able to use it's powers for as long as he would be touching him, but his supernatural powers will remain intact after he stops touching it (example saint - Kanzaki)

Second: If the entity would be suppresed, then probably immunity, just like in the Index case. Though if a part of it's body would go out (not sure if having direct control over the user body is counted) then he would most likely kill it or at least damage it (depends if the entity can regenerate faster than what he can cancell - Inocentius)
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Old 2011-06-21, 04:37   Link #545
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I want to ask a question about Touma's IB. How did he blocked the telepathy of the girl in the first season? After all he can't touch with his right hand and it is not an illusion to be able to touch it and destroy it , it's talking in his mind and I'm sure that to read minds your powers are not going from the victim's hand to its brain right?
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Old 2011-06-21, 07:05   Link #546
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The girl's telepathy works by sticking an imaginary length of rope on a person.
Since she cannot stick this "telepathic thread" on Touma, her telepathy fails.
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Old 2011-06-21, 09:02   Link #547
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oh , that's something new. Thanks
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Old 2011-06-21, 13:33   Link #548
Okashira
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Originally Posted by zaeraal View Post
So your first case: he would not be able to use it's powers for as long as he would be touching him, but his supernatural powers will remain intact after he stops touching it (example saint - Kanzaki)
Pretty much spot on, but I don't agree with the saint part. For the looks of it the Imagine Breaker doesn't weaken saints, this probably has to do with the fact that the stigma is more of a spiritual thing (wasn't it linked t the soul? It's probably not located on the "outside of the body").

If Kanzaki dragging around a bullying Touma without him being unable to do anything doesn't suffice as a proof, we have that when both Kanzaki and Touma held Acqua, if his saint attribute could really get "turned off" by the Imagine Breaker then we would have that Kanzaki's "bear hug" would have squeezed him to death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
The girl's telepathy works by sticking an imaginary length of rope on a person.
Since she cannot stick this "telepathic thread" on Touma, her telepathy fails.
This is correct, Touma can also cut that type of telepathic link between two people if he manages to "fly swat" the invisible cord. It is actually in that way that he explained how such telepathy type existed.
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Old 2011-06-23, 06:26   Link #549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
I'll give you an easier example- An Esper Or a Saint would also fit the bill.

It's a being of flesh and blood, yet it has an innate supernatural power.


BUT!!!!! If the supernatural power is what's keeping the being alive, then of course Imagine Breaker would kill it - for example, a Golem.
That's why he and Hyouka can never touch each other T__T
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Old 2011-06-23, 08:11   Link #550
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What do you think would happen with vampires?
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Old 2011-06-23, 08:33   Link #551
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they are living beings. Just like saints. They might be magical beings but still living beings and not sustained by magical means. They won't die unless their bodies are made by magical energy like when they transformed into something but staying in human form. There won't be a problem.
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Old 2011-06-23, 08:58   Link #552
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What I meant was would there be a temporary or a permanent effect (i.e. de-vamp)?
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Old 2011-06-23, 09:07   Link #553
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^ probably not
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Old 2011-06-23, 13:03   Link #554
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What do you think would happen with vampires?
On that note, there have been AFAIK zero mention of vampires after the Deep Blood arc....
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Old 2011-06-23, 20:37   Link #555
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This was because there was an explosion immediately afterwards.

A bomb had not been simply dropped down.

It wasn’t until much later that he realized that a shell had been fired in a straight line accelerated by magnetism or something so that it struck the ground at over the speed of sound.
I was worried that the Academy City Fighter would drop bombs the old fashion way, thankfully they didn't disappoint with their over-the-top method of doing normal things

But that's more like a linear cannon than a bomber now Plus magnetism doesn't produce recoil right?
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Old 2011-06-23, 23:16   Link #556
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Because I've been researching (re-reading) certain parts of the novels, I was reminded that Aleister referred to Accelerator, Last Order and Fuse=KAZAKIRI as a Trinity.

I guess we can assume that it's supposed to be a Trinity like Christianity's Holy Trinity. The Trinity defining God as three divine persons.

As in:

Father=Accelerator.

Son(Daughter in this case, W/E)=Last Order

Holy Spirit=Fuse=KAZAKIRI

Aleister said the Trinity is key to the Artificial Heaven. The MISAKA Network unites the Trinity.

But if this Trinity that equates to God -- and may I remind you Accelerator's epithet: He who wields a piece of power that equates to God -- then how does the whole Level 6 stuff work now? Isn't SYSTEM something above God? If Accelerator is part of the Trinity that equates to God, how can he also be the Level 6 candidate, which is supposed to be above God?

My brain is collapsing in on itself.

Any clarification? Am I getting this all wrong?
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Old 2011-06-23, 23:34   Link #557
Okashira
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Originally Posted by Mr.Kyon View Post
Because I've been researching (re-reading) certain parts of the novels, I was reminded that Aleister referred to Accelerator, Last Order and Fuse=KAZAKIRI as a Trinity.

I guess we can assume that it's supposed to be a Trinity like Christianity's Holy Trinity. The Trinity defining God as three divine persons.

Aleister said the Trinity is key to the Artificial Heaven. The MISAKA Network unites the Trinity.


Any clarification? Am I getting this all wrong?
If memory serves me right, "System" was one that has a body that can step into the realm of God and understand the laws of Heaven (for us) and more or less interact with those. For what I think that would amount to "See Heaven", "Understand Heaven & Celestial beings" and ultimately "Edit Heaven", No character in the series has been close to that from either side, though Aiwass might step to that in one way or another (though no level of "Editing Heaven" has been displayed by that thing).

To quote someone, thinking this by the Laws of Christianity is already your failure(?) Probably the usage of the trinity is there to "grant the "Body" (system)" power and characteristics that wouldn't have otherwise.... To be honest these kinds of things can't really be foreseen and true details can only surface after things are already done with, probably the Trinity is not even the last step on "the Body".

What strucks me the most when I read the definition of "System" was on how the word Body was given great importance.... Makes you think that ultimately he who achieves "that Body" might see himself stripped of "that Body" as soon as he got it
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Old 2011-06-23, 23:42   Link #558
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They said that a Level 5 would take a couple hundred years to become a Level 6, hence the need for a body that can last for that long periods of time. And now that the story is stepping into the realm of cybernetics...

Also, to understand the Heavens might not necessary automatically mean [Above God], as I've recalled Angels also have celestial knowledge.
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Old 2011-06-24, 00:05   Link #559
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
They said that a Level 5 would take a couple hundred years to become a Level 6, hence the need for a body that can last for that long periods of time. And now that the story is stepping into the realm of cybernetics...

Also, to understand the Heavens might not necessary automatically mean [Above God], as I've recalled Angels also have celestial knowledge.
The Fridge is calling out to us Seriously, his Dark Matter is inorganic, right? Lol, fore~shadowing.

Speaking of Fridge-kun...

Kakine's Epihet is He who wields a piece of the Heaven that is inhabited by God. More and more, I think his Dark Matter might literally be a material that the Heavens are partly made of.

Also...

Quote:
Accelerator and Dark Matter control the organic and inorganic powers respectively.
From this passage, I get a headache.

By Dark Matter, does it mean Kakine or the literal Dark Matter?

By Accelerator, does it mean with or without his wings?

If Accelerator's non-angel form controls the organic, then do his wings do as well? Or if we are to believe Kakine -- that his wings are made out of Dark Matter -- then they must control the inorganic, right? But since it seems that Accelerator creates imaginary vectors with those wings -- black or white -- doesn't it mean that truly, even taking the wings into consideration, that:

Accelerator=Organic

Kakine=Inorganic.

???
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Old 2011-06-24, 01:32   Link #560
Okashira
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Originally Posted by Mr.Kyon View Post
Kakine's Epihet is He who wields a piece of the Heaven that is inhabited by God. More and more, I think his Dark Matter might literally be a material that the Heavens are partly made of.
If you want to give the "simplest definition" then it's just material that it's completely imperceptible in this dimension until Fridge uses it, remember that "Heavens" goes for a "realm that it's outside our perception" and it has been stated many times that "it could be right next to use yet we can't see it".

Quote:
By Dark Matter, does it mean Kakine or the literal Dark Matter?

By Accelerator, does it mean with or without his wings?

If Accelerator's non-angel form controls the organic, then do his wings do as well? Or if we are to believe Kakine -- that his wings are made out of Dark Matter -- then they must control the inorganic, right? But since it seems that Accelerator creates imaginary vectors with those wings -- black or white -- doesn't it mean that truly, even taking the wings into consideration, that:
The fact that Accelerator gets his wings made out of "Dark Matter" or more precisely "from materials from other realm" doesn't mean that he has the same type of control over them as Kakine does with his wings; The Accelerator stills manipulates vectors with them, he is incapable of filtering things with unknown materials nor produces "quasi invisible objects made out of something". Accelerator has never changed "the type of power that he has" through the series, he only has changed the scope of his powers (using regular vectors, imaginary vectors, vectors that take into account "non existing laws" (magic), etc), thus his nick name doesn't get to change.

By organic and inorganic after a long while I simply choose to take it as the simple definition given there, "organic is power that is akin to someone" and "inorganic is power that is akin to something", this is even explained as such right within those paragraphs.
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