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Old 2011-06-24, 15:06   Link #561
Ashaman
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Okay, so on an other forum, someone who just started the series complained abuout the magic, and mentioned that for it to work, it would have to have some sort of sentience.

So that got me thinking - Glimories want to be read. Some types of magic involve borrowing power from Angels/other higher beings.

So, magic- sentient or not. If so, how sentient.
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Old 2011-06-24, 17:26   Link #562
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashaman View Post
Okay, so on an other forum, someone who just started the series complained abuout the magic, and mentioned that for it to work, it would have to have some sort of sentience.

So that got me thinking - Glimories want to be read. Some types of magic involve borrowing power from Angels/other higher beings.

So, magic- sentient or not. If so, how sentient.
...Does the guy even know what Sentient means? What is his argument that magic have a consciousness?

Grimoires are the only sort of magic objects that seems to have a life of it's own, but it's mostly like a computer virus, and you wouldn't call a virus sentient... not by a long stretch.
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Old 2011-06-24, 20:44   Link #563
Okashira
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
...Does the guy even know what Sentient means? What is his argument that magic have a consciousness?

Grimoires are the only sort of magic objects that seems to have a life of it's own, but it's mostly like a computer virus, and you wouldn't call a virus sentient... not by a long stretch.
That comment probably comes from the Angel Healing magic that Komoe used and from the "Necklace" -> "John's pen mode" spell that was cast over Index, Stiyl Innocentius can also fit that miss-conception.

More than sentient, I would go that magic has too much of a "defined purpose". For example the healing magic that Komoe used probably borrows the power from one of the four main archangels, and with those materials, procedures and power source there aren't many variations to that; it's not like other series were a guy that "does magic" can pull a bunch of random things out of his hat "because it's magic".

BTW, the only magician that I can think of the top of my head that can "violate" the norms of "purpose" of magic preparation is Oriana, she explained it herself, that by following the magical procedures of a healing spell but assigning it another color to it which isn't curative, she could use a "healing spell" that would attack every injury in the target and make them feel pain; she does this with all of her card spells, but the example is the clearest with healing magic.

...... Personally I thought it was funny when she said that she can't use healing spells, meaning that she couldn't use the "undistorted" version of the spell; Oriana is probably able to "change" these rules thanks to the fact that she uses her home made grimoires; I suppose that if her ability to write grimoires was as strong as a proper magic author she would be able to use both, the "distorted" and the "proper" effects of the spells. I always thought that her magic methods were actually pretty interesting compared to other characters.
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Old 2011-06-24, 21:55   Link #564
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Originally Posted by Okashira View Post
More than sentient, I would go that magic has too much of a "defined purpose". For example the healing magic that Komoe used probably borrows the power from one of the four main archangels, and with those materials, procedures and power source there aren't many variations to that; it's not like other series were a guy that "does magic" can pull a bunch of random things out of his hat "because it's magic".
I thought Index told Komoe it's not about 'summoning a angel' but 'giving a angel's shape to the energy gathered'? (ref Vol1 Ch3 pt1)

According to the narrative, it's about creating a miniture world, and its guardian is like a temporary god in this made up world's boundaries. So magic doesn't have a sentience, if you define magic as 'natural magical energy that's present in the world'. Other things made from magic probably will have sentience, if you count things like grimoires. Those things can at least interact with other people, if the Aztec grimoires are anything to go by; killing a host because they refuse to read their magic and teach it to others (eg Tecpatl), and also making deals with a host (eg Etzali's 1st grimoire, saving Xochitl in exchange for Etzali to wield the grimoire).
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Old 2011-06-24, 22:48   Link #565
Okashira
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Originally Posted by Flere821 View Post
I thought Index told Komoe it's not about 'summoning a angel' but 'giving a angel's shape to the energy gathered'? (ref Vol1 Ch3 pt1)

According to the narrative, it's about creating a miniture world, and its guardian is like a temporary god in this made up world's boundaries.
I'm clear on that; probably my phrasing came out wrongly, the "Angel" that Komoe used to heal Index is completely bogus (and it's likely from a Shoujo manga ). But much, much later in the series someone explained that to use magic you needed to use "the seal" of a powerful entity (I think that it was Stiyl when he was explained Magic Arrays after Oriana first escaped them). The "seal" is very responsible for giving the power and the type of power to the magic, and normally the entity that gives the seal is an angel or someone broken (I think the example they gave was King David).

In other words, the very foundation of Komoe's magic spell probably comes from an Angel since it's from a magic array borrowing "magic power", even though in fact the "actual Angel" materialized and involved in the healing is completely non existent.

edit

I think that either Touma or the narration once used "vampires" as an example of the things that his right hand can erase.
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Old 2011-06-25, 00:37   Link #566
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Magic is Index is mostly Knowledge + Borrowed Power, or Idol Theory. Sometimes the symbol can be as simple as a colour but I'm curious as to how they use the spells of a grimoire; looking at Index and Fiamma, it's like they're whipping out spells left and right, or in Pendex case, drawing circles in mid air. When you absorb a Grimoire, does it mean you can use it's powers 'freely' ?


There's also something else I want to confirm; In Vol 22 Bardway said something like the golden substance cannot be manipulated by man, isn't that Telesma? I thought everybody have been using that stuff for ages?
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Old 2011-06-25, 01:10   Link #567
Okashira
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Magic is Index is mostly Knowledge + Borrowed Power, or Idol Theory. Sometimes the symbol can be as simple as a colour but I'm curious as to how they use the spells of a grimoire; looking at Index and Fiamma, it's like they're whipping out spells left and right, or in Pendex case, drawing circles in mid air. When you absorb a Grimoire, does it mean you can use it's powers 'freely' ?
Remember that they said that grimoires are completed magic arrays. Meaning that it's like walking around with a turned on portable console, you just need to pull it out and press a few buttons and you are ready to go. "Regular magic" is more like pulling the console out of your closet, plugging it to the TV, connecting to the power source, putting the game inside, turning it on and then being ready to go.

.... From my jargon, you can easily tell that I'm a citizen of science

Quote:
There's also something else I want to confirm; In Vol 22 Bardway said something like the golden substance cannot be manipulated by man, isn't that Telesma? I thought everybody have been using that stuff for ages?
Magicians are able to syphon telesma and "add it to things" (when creating magical items) or "point it to places" (when they use spells), but by no means they can use telesma as they do with their own magic power as it's just incompatible.....

I suppose that an example would be something like "poison" for telesma and "saliva" for mana. You can use poison on things and gathering from places, but you can not produce it on your own nor consume it nor transform it in something else with your body alone.... God forbids you of swallowing your own saliva, but that's the best example that I can think in my current condition xD you can pretty much do whatever you please with saliva.
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Old 2011-06-25, 03:26   Link #568
Ashaman
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I've never really understood the whole mana thing. Can someone explian it to me?

I mean, what is it used for when compared to telesema. Stuff like that
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Old 2011-06-25, 04:29   Link #569
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Mana is basically magical energy in ToaruVerse. This word is normally used to refer to natural magical energy, or to magical energy created inside one's own body.

Telesma is specifically used to refer to angel's magical energy. This is different in nature to mana, with differences like potency issues. Humans can't handle Telesma inside their bodies, even saints like Acqua, since when he tried to absorb half of Gabriel's power he almost killed himself. They could redirect it to things like crosses or vessels to contain their power, if what Index said in Vol6 was right. Curtana Original I think used Telesma as well.

Bottom line, mana and telesma is like different types of fuel/petrol.
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Old 2011-06-25, 05:39   Link #570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flere821 View Post
Mana is basically magical energy in ToaruVerse. This word is normally used to refer to natural magical energy, or to magical energy created inside one's own body.

Telesma is specifically used to refer to angel's magical energy. This is different in nature to mana, with differences like potency issues. Humans can't handle Telesma inside their bodies, even saints like Acqua, since when he tried to absorb half of Gabriel's power he almost killed himself. They could redirect it to things like crosses or vessels to contain their power, if what Index said in Vol6 was right. Curtana Original I think used Telesma as well.

Bottom line, mana and telesma is like different types of fuel/petrol.
then is it possible for esper to be able to handle telesma with some kind of ability. But if he's esper then he wouldn't be able to use it right , so it's just meaningless .
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Old 2011-06-25, 05:50   Link #571
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AIM and Telesma goes against each other so it's impossible.
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Old 2011-06-25, 09:27   Link #572
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Yeah I realized that would be a problem XDXDXD
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Old 2011-06-26, 13:05   Link #573
Phibrizzo
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Actually a mage can channel Telesma but it can't retain it, Aqua try to retain Telesma in his body.
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Old 2011-06-28, 06:33   Link #574
judasmartel
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Sorry for the off-topic, but this could be a real-life case of the Pyromaster ability.

Some translations:

Headline: (Kid) can create fire?

It's impossible to create a fire without friction or chemical reaction, experts say.

Kid who allegedly can create fires now the center of attention.

Em-Em's Mother: The fire just spread out, starting at the center, not at the sides. There were flames but we weren't cooking anything. The child was shocked, she told me, "Mom, the roof's burning." So I got a pail of water...

Burnt clothes negative for chemicals, tests show.

"Pyromancer" should not be subjected to experiments.

NOTE: This kid actually has a kidney problem, so she needs an operation, which the family can't afford, so they're appealing for help.
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Old 2011-06-28, 07:35   Link #575
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Academy City has some facilities in the Philippines, including one in Davao.
As for that case, perhaps even if science can explain or debunk it, it doesn't change the fact that pyromancers might exist.
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Old 2011-06-28, 08:03   Link #576
judasmartel
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Who-oh. Didn't know that. Thanks for the info, man.
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Old 2011-06-28, 11:10   Link #577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Magic is Index is mostly Knowledge + Borrowed Power, or Idol Theory. Sometimes the symbol can be as simple as a colour but I'm curious as to how they use the spells of a grimoire; looking at Index and Fiamma, it's like they're whipping out spells left and right, or in Pendex case, drawing circles in mid air. When you absorb a Grimoire, does it mean you can use it's powers 'freely' ?


There's also something else I want to confirm; In Vol 22 Bardway said something like the golden substance cannot be manipulated by man, isn't that Telesma? I thought everybody have been using that stuff for ages?
Humans cannot utilize Telesma. The way it's described to humans, it's like an ultra potent hunk of rock that with human means, cannot do more than remain a hunk of rock.

It also damges humans. since Human bodies are not meant to contain it.

All non-God's Right Seat Telesma manipulation basically is just redirecting.
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Old 2011-06-28, 11:21   Link #578
Miraluka
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All non-God's Right Seat Telesma manipulation basically is just redirecting.
And I wonder, how can Bardway do it just by pure instinct?
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Old 2011-06-30, 08:58   Link #579
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I'm wondering about Touma's IB.

If an existence which can be negated by Imagine Breaker has an origin that can't be affected by it (such as an flesh-and-blood human body), can IB restore the existence's state back into its origin? I'm tempted to think that IB is able to do that, as long as the rule that the existence that can be negated has an origin that IB can't negate stays in effect.

It might be far-fetched to assume that can happen given what we generally know of it, but I hope this is a possibility that can be feasible.
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Old 2011-06-30, 13:49   Link #580
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You mean like astral body ?
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