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Old 2011-08-15, 04:16   Link #681
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Someone who can manipulate a computer virus in someone else's brain? Or compute and process magic by calculation? Yes, I think he is rather well aware of his own cells. His calculation ability was likened to that of a particle accelerator. And yeah he should be able to identify mutated cells through their own motion. By that I mean the way its atomic components move and the like.
You forgot that Accelerator's calculating ability no longer matches his prime status.
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Old 2011-08-15, 04:19   Link #682
judasmartel
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Except when he's in Angel Mode, only that he doesn't activate it often.
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Old 2011-08-15, 07:54   Link #683
Drifting Wolf
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Someone who can manipulate a computer virus in someone else's brain? Or compute and process magic by calculation? Yes, I think he is rather well aware of his own cells. His calculation ability was likened to that of a particle accelerator. And yeah he should be able to identify mutated cells through their own motion. By that I mean the way its atomic components move and the like.
Allow me to shed some light on how Accelerator managed to to that feat and state boldly here that he can't do anything about cancerous cells unless he goes Angel Mode.

Now, the human brain is a strange thing. I won't go into scientific detail but it's basically a mass of synapses and neurons that carry electric impulses called action potential to every part of our body and determines responsiveness and such.

Now, what is commonly associated with electricity? You got it - Vectors.

To go into To Aru science mixed with a bit of real world science - The Brain has been proven to have some sort of electronic imprint over time. This is because when a human has settled into a routine, these habits are 'burned' into the brain as subconscious impulses and a network of these impulses flow frequently enough to form a imprint - a 'Brain Wave'.

Some scientists speculate that these are actually the real 'Ghosts' that people see - 'Amplified Electro-imprints' that keep repeating whatever has been ingrained into your subconsciousness.

But I digress, Accelerator asked for a map of Last Order's Brain Wave prior to the virus infection. This is simple - the virus forcefully alters Last Orders brain wave patterns, essentially altering her set 'eletro-imprint'. What Accelerator did was simply use the fact that electricity operates on vectors to forcefully stop the overwrite process and revert the impulses back to their original form.

The proof here is that if Last Order got infected, the other SISTERs would follow suit. They are connected via a Brain Wave network, which means that first and foremost, the administrator's 'Brain' determines whatever external data they receive.

This is where we come to cancer cells. Cancer is a mass of cells that have started to grow uncontrollably, becoming malignant and tumourous. It's like a mutation which Accelerator cannot stop because they don't use any mathematical calculations - Scientists can only speculate how long cancerous cells can spread based on data. He can stop the spread, maybe. But that's only if he knows where they are.

Accelerator can't stop aging nor can he heal people - Last Order is proof of that. He reverse-engineered the magic spell using imaginary vectors - which are vectors that use rules beyond that of the science we know. He didn't compute it - He altered it to suit his purpose.
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Old 2011-08-15, 08:34   Link #684
Zakoo
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Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
DNA =/= cell growth.

If he does know about brain cells, is that hard to know about the other cells? I don't think so.
I can cook rice and egg, that doesn't mean I can do an omurice, brain cells and others cells are two different matters.

Recognizing cancer cells by its atomic movements? Do you realize how much things there is inside a cell? There's no way Accel can do it, if there is a tumor he may destroy it, but even in his deepest dream he will be able to recognize normal cells to cancer cells that didn't develop.

Like asking him to recognize a cell infected of AIDS, if there's a change at the DNA level he can't do a thing. You will have to explain me in what ways vectors can be useful in this situation, otherwise it's a no no.

On a side note, the thing with LO was pretty fucked up and was probably one of the few moment where Kamachi messed up real science, you can't use this to say "if he did this with LO he can do this with other thing" it's a fallacy.
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Old 2011-08-15, 08:37   Link #685
Cosmic Eagle
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Originally Posted by Drifting Wolf View Post
Allow me to shed some light on how Accelerator managed to to that feat and state boldly here that he can't do anything about cancerous cells unless he goes Angel Mode.

Now, the human brain is a strange thing. I won't go into scientific detail but it's basically a mass of synapses and neurons that carry electric impulses called action potential to every part of our body and determines responsiveness and such.

Now, what is commonly associated with electricity? You got it - Vectors.

To go into To Aru science mixed with a bit of real world science - The Brain has been proven to have some sort of electronic imprint over time. This is because when a human has settled into a routine, these habits are 'burned' into the brain as subconscious impulses and a network of these impulses flow frequently enough to form a imprint - a 'Brain Wave'.

Some scientists speculate that these are actually the real 'Ghosts' that people see - 'Amplified Electro-imprints' that keep repeating whatever has been ingrained into your subconsciousness.

But I digress, Accelerator asked for a map of Last Order's Brain Wave prior to the virus infection. This is simple - the virus forcefully alters Last Orders brain wave patterns, essentially altering her set 'eletro-imprint'. What Accelerator did was simply use the fact that electricity operates on vectors to forcefully stop the overwrite process and revert the impulses back to their original form.

The proof here is that if Last Order got infected, the other SISTERs would follow suit. They are connected via a Brain Wave network, which means that first and foremost, the administrator's 'Brain' determines whatever external data they receive.

This is where we come to cancer cells. Cancer is a mass of cells that have started to grow uncontrollably, becoming malignant and tumourous. It's like a mutation which Accelerator cannot stop because they don't use any mathematical calculations - Scientists can only speculate how long cancerous cells can spread based on data. He can stop the spread, maybe. But that's only if he knows where they are.

Accelerator can't stop aging nor can he heal people - Last Order is proof of that. He reverse-engineered the magic spell using imaginary vectors - which are vectors that use rules beyond that of the science we know. He didn't compute it - He altered it to suit his purpose.
....So....you are saying cancer cells don't involve vectors is that it?
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Old 2011-08-15, 09:05   Link #686
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Nope. Unless he uses imaginary vectors. Then we can screw the rules. <.<
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Old 2011-08-15, 10:15   Link #687
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
I can cook rice and egg, that doesn't mean I can do an omurice, brain cells and others cells are two different matters.

Recognizing cancer cells by its atomic movements? Do you realize how much things there is inside a cell? There's no way Accel can do it, if there is a tumor he may destroy it, but even in his deepest dream he will be able to recognize normal cells to cancer cells that didn't develop.

Like asking him to recognize a cell infected of AIDS, if there's a change at the DNA level he can't do a thing. You will have to explain me in what ways vectors can be useful in this situation, otherwise it's a no no.

On a side note, the thing with LO was pretty fucked up and was probably one of the few moment where Kamachi messed up real science, you can't use this to say "if he did this with LO he can do this with other thing" it's a fallacy.
Accelerator breaks the laws of science various times, do you think that matters?
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Old 2011-08-15, 10:22   Link #688
Zakoo
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Yes because you are trying to use a scientifical argumentation (how he can recognize cells etc etc ) when the character itself is broken, if you want to play the game and simply follow the "vector control" power he can't do it.

Remember that when LO asked him why his hair were white, he answered that because of his power, his molecular balance was off, if he was so god like that you seem to think - he would just to control it- why doesn't he do it? He doesn't want? Maybe he is particularly lazy after all, but the possibility that he can't is more relevant.*

Now there's the straight way to do it : Accelerator is god himself, he wants to nuke a country? He can do it so why can't he even nuke a little tumor.

At this point I will tell you yes.

*By the way, if you follow this way of thinking, he can't stop his aging too since he can't mess with his telomere.
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Old 2011-08-15, 10:34   Link #689
Miraluka
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Oh boy, here we go again...

Recognize cells? By getting a concept of how a normal cell is, even our world science can recognize cancerous cells.

Solar rays? He said it, it was his unconcious doings, if its harmful it gets blocked. The melanine is used to resist such harmful rays, if there is no harmful rays then there is no need for melanine and his skin coloration gets useless, same with his skinny body since there is no need to use his own strenght his muscles didn't need to develop that much.

Nuke a country? He always was a loner, does he even care about others before? He just wanted to be alone.

Is the aging harmful? No, then there is no need to stop it.


To your previous post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
I can cook rice and egg, that doesn't mean I can do an omurice, brain cells and others cells are two different matters.
OK, so what? Brain cells are on another level complex than the others cells because they have a major level of complexity, in order to know the more complex do you need to know the less complex beforehand.


Quote:
Recognizing cancer cells by its atomic movements? Do you realize how much things there is inside a cell? There's no way Accel can do it, if there is a tumor he may destroy it, but even in his deepest dream he will be able to recognize normal cells to cancer cells that didn't develop.
You're going on a meta-discussion there. You say he can't, how do you know he can't?
Also how do you know if Academy City had already found the cure to cancer?

Quote:
Like asking him to recognize a cell infected of AIDS, if there's a change at the DNA level he can't do a thing. You will have to explain me in what ways vectors can be useful in this situation, otherwise it's a no no.
Again, you go with the DNA thing, I'm not your science teacher and is a pain in the ass to do so in the internet when I have to do with annoying sisters in RL. The DNA just maybe shows a predisposition to get sick on someway, but it doesn't make one vulnerable to any ill there is out there.

Quote:
On a side note, the thing with LO was pretty fucked up and was probably one of the few moment where Kamachi messed up real science, you can't use this to say "if he did this with LO he can do this with other thing" it's a fallacy.
You have no choice but accept it, or else doesn't make sense keep going on when you don't accept others points, the author point. Fallacy is what you have making since the beggining, you know? If someone saying "A did B, so he can do C" is fallacy the you saying something like "A didn't B, so he can't do C" is another form of fallacy.

Last edited by Miraluka; 2011-08-15 at 10:48.
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Old 2011-08-15, 11:24   Link #690
Zakoo
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Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Recognize cells? By getting a concept of how a normal cell is, even our world science can recognize cancerous cells.
Human isn't a machine, that's the main problem. Even if there are plenty ways of knowing whether ones has a cancer or not, to be sure it is needed to use a thing that Accelerator can not do with its power : X ray tomography, endoscop etc.

No seriously, it's not as easy as it seems, you can have the brain of a computer if you want, but without the proper tool it's useless.

Quote:
You're going on a meta-discussion there. You say he can't, how do you know he can't?
Also how do you know if Academy City had already found the cure to cancer?
You say that but ... Doesn't that apply to you too?
Quote:
Again, you go with the DNA thing, I'm not your science teacher and is a pain in the ass to do so in the internet when I have to do with annoying sisters in RL. The DNA just maybe shows a predisposition to get sick on someway, but it doesn't make one vulnerable to any ill there is out there.
... You're kidding me right? You sure you know what is a cancer? It's when a cell underwent at least three mutations: It doesn't need the growth factor to begin its mitosis; it's not stuck to its "wall"; and the last one allows the cell to migrate in another part of the body. Those mutations, you have some when you are born, but life itself gives you the others : radioactive radiation, amiante, chimical products, alcohol, tabaco... And a lot of others thing.

As long as those three conditions aren't meet, it's not really a cancer.
How can you say it's not related to DNA?

Quote:
You have no choice but accept it, or else doesn't make sense keep going on when you don't accept others points, the author point. Fallacy is what you have making since the beggining, you know? If someone saying "A did B, so he can do C" is fallacy the you saying something like "A didn't B, so he can't do C" is another form of fallacy.
Yessu, that is true, but I'm explaining that his power -vector control- can not mess with its body at the molecular level - meaning enzyme reaction and everything.-How should I explain this ... it's like asking Accel-kun to know what's inside a room while being in another room, the two are only linked by few holes and of course he can't see through ... See?

I will stop here, as you said doing this is not interesting on the internet, if you want to think Accel-chan can cure cancer, feel free to do so.
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Old 2011-08-15, 11:30   Link #691
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
You say that but ... Doesn't that apply to you too?
Obviously, but thats because I chose to answer you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
Human isn't a machine, that's the main problem. Even if there are plenty ways of knowing whether ones has a cancer or not, to be sure it is needed to use a thing that Accelerator can not do with its power : X ray tomography, endoscop etc.

No seriously, it's not as easy as it seems, you can have the brain of a computer if you want, but without the proper tool it's useless.
And yet there espers who can hack trough internet yous using electrical signals emitted from themselves. At some point espers are tools except Uiharu.




Quote:
... You're kidding me right? You sure you know what is a cancer? It's when a cell underwent at least three mutations: It doesn't need the growth factor to begin its mitosis; it's not stuck to its "wall"; and the last one allows the cell to migrate in another part of the body. Those mutations, you have some when you are born, but life itself gives you the others : radioactive radiation, amiante, chimical products, alcohol, tabaco... And a lot of others thing.
All of them harmful.

And he does only seem drink cofee <---JK.

Quote:
As long as those three conditions aren't meet, it's not really a cancer.
How can you say it's not related to DNA?
Nyoh... what to do? These conditions needs to meet, and just happens that in Accel's case they're harmful by themselves so they nevel will meet.


Quote:
I will stop here, as you said doing this is not interesting on the internet, if you want to think Accel-chan can cure cancer, feel free to do so.
Same goes for you, have your way if you want to think he can't.

Last edited by Miraluka; 2011-08-15 at 11:45. Reason: Wrong emoticon D:
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Old 2011-08-15, 11:58   Link #692
zaeraal
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I believe it all depends on how esper power works.

First approach is that esper is like a battery, I call this the game method (as it is similar to principes used in games). He constantly emits a small amount of power, but most of the power is still stored inside. That small amount of emited power works like a sensor that recieves inputs from outside and delivers them back to brain. Of course it only recieves inputs from relevant particles, energies, wawes.. (in accel case all of them). This is then procesed inside his brain and when he recognizes something as harmfull, he then emits a stronger amount of power, that reflects it. (why I compared it to games, is that in games you see enemies in that mini radar and when they are dangerous, you attack them using strong spells)
but this aproach has a fatal mistake - accel was capable of reflecting UV rays no prob, but the amount of light particles hitting body exeeds the amount of brain cells


The second aproach is the lightbulb aproach. Esper is like a lightbulb that constantly emits light (AIM). The lightbulb does not run out of energy. The principe is that esper calculation ability is like putting a colored paper or some item in front of the lightbulb , it changes the color of light or its shape. This actually strains the brain to a certain extent, so after a while the esper will be tired unable to use his power, but even so, the lighbulb will be still shining. If this is a correct aproach, then accel's autoreflect just constantly changes the shape/color of the light, which should be easy, as you don't have to calculate every single particle, but only the pattern. DNA contains something about 70MB of computer data, which should not be problematic for him to analyze and create apropiate pattern for.
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Old 2011-08-15, 12:55   Link #693
Ashaman
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... You're kidding me right? You sure you know what is a cancer? It's when a cell underwent at least three mutations: It doesn't need the growth factor to begin its mitosis; it's not stuck to its "wall"; and the last one allows the cell to migrate in another part of the body. Those mutations, you have some when you are born, but life itself gives you the others : radioactive radiation, amiante, chimical products, alcohol, tabaco... And a lot of others thing.

As long as those three conditions aren't meet, it's not really a cancer.
How can you say it's not related to DNA?
I think you need to brush up on your cancer knowledge. What you are saying isn't completely wrong, but some of your points are off base. For example, and I think the biggest mistake you made was that cancer is only a malignant cell growth. It doesn't need to be able to move through the body to be cancer. It just needs to be a malignant, uncontrollable growth.

Also, its not the ability to grow without growth factors, it could also be an imbalance of Growth Factors and of Apoptotic factors.

Then again, this isn't the place for this and I wouldn't be surprised if a Mod deleted it
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Old 2011-08-16, 08:10   Link #694
Cosmic Eagle
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Nope. Unless he uses imaginary vectors. Then we can screw the rules. <.<
Then how wrong you are. Everything involves vectors. Basic quantum mechanics should tell you this.
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Old 2011-08-16, 08:40   Link #695
Drifting Wolf
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Do you honestly want to get into this?

Very well. Quantum Mechanics also known as Quantum Theory is merely deviation from classical physics, wherein it gives a plausible explanations for things that cannot be explained using classical mechanics.

I say plausible because the field of Quantum Mechanics is always subject to change and the usage of the Quantum Theory itself is to allow humans to derive an understanding of how the world around us operates on a Quantum level.

However, it is only a theory. We can only speculate how things work on a Quantum level by using results and deriving an answer that best explains it and it, in turn, opens up more realms of possibility for us to explore.

Unit Vectors are used to represent the possible states of quantum mechanical system. There is a reason why quantum mechanics is commonly associated with probability. Because that's what it is - A probable way of how the universe around us works.

Of course, I haven't picked up a book on quantum mechanics in ages and my knowledge is derived from my friend who has an absurd interest in the field. So I could be wrong but eh.

EDIT: Further elaborating - since in To Aru, our so-called theories is apparently how the universe at large functions, since Accelerator is close to godlike with the nature of his power, However, even then, Accelerator has shown that there are limits to what he can do with Vector Change since Unit Vectors are merely assigned probabilities. Mutating cells and malignant tumors maybe on a Quantum Level but the probability aspect has been completely stripped away. How Vector Change works, to me, is that it alters the probability input assigned to the object that he touches and he merely alters the equation as he sees fit.

As Kihara Amata has shown, by throwing a wrench into his calculations, he can cause the entire equation to be jumbled up and make Accelerator lose control of whatever he's doing.

However, Imaginary Vectors, in my humble opinion, works like this - If it's a theory, Accelerator screws the equation and changes it to what he wants. In that case, he makes a 'theory' into 'something proven' or 'something that works' despite the fact that it may ignore the laws of classical physics and whatnot because that's what quantum theory is.

Ergo, that's how he was able to comprehend something he wasn't able to understand (Magic) but Imagine Breaker apparently fell outside the laws of even Imaginary Vectors.

Last edited by Drifting Wolf; 2011-08-16 at 08:53.
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Old 2011-08-16, 08:46   Link #696
Cosmic Eagle
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It's still a vector nonetheless. And since Accelerator's vector manipulation can affect numerous stuff like photons, electricity, Kakine's Dark Matter....I don't see why he can't do so here.
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Old 2011-08-16, 09:00   Link #697
Drifting Wolf
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
It's still a vector nonetheless. And since Accelerator's vector manipulation can affect numerous stuff like photons, electricity, Kakine's Dark Matter....I don't see why he can't do so here.
Once again, this is only a theory. Photons and electricity have vectors, true. I won't deny that.

Dark Matter on the other hand, appears to have a set probability. Think about it this way - when Kakine Teitoku 'creates' Dark Matter, he has to assign values to it in order for it to do what it wants.

What Accelerator did was probably to 'update' his Personal Reality to include calculations of matter that had values which did not fit probable quantum calculations that he knew and turned it against Teitoku, since Dark Matter at base, is still reliant on vector calculations.

However, cancerous growth doesn't work like that. It's uncontrollable, unpredictable. Quantum theory works on it being, well, predictable. I'm not saying that he can't control it, mind you. I'm merely saying he can't stop cancerous growth.
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Old 2011-08-16, 11:54   Link #698
zaeraal
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Originally Posted by Drifting Wolf View Post
Once again, this is only a theory. Photons and electricity have vectors, true. I won't deny that.

Dark Matter on the other hand, appears to have a set probability. Think about it this way - when Kakine Teitoku 'creates' Dark Matter, he has to assign values to it in order for it to do what it wants.

What Accelerator did was probably to 'update' his Personal Reality to include calculations of matter that had values which did not fit probable quantum calculations that he knew and turned it against Teitoku, since Dark Matter at base, is still reliant on vector calculations.

However, cancerous growth doesn't work like that. It's uncontrollable, unpredictable. Quantum theory works on it being, well, predictable. I'm not saying that he can't control it, mind you. I'm merely saying he can't stop cancerous growth.
But he does not need to stop the "growth" itself. He just needs to analyze the cancer cells as something bad (like what he does with everything around him - people attacking him, bullets, uv rays...) and then reflect it in any way he wants to. I mean did you saw what happened to people that tried to attack him? They didn't just bounced back like some Gummi Bears, but they had their arms twisted, bones broken, etc.. The body moves on celular level even if the owner is not trying to move, he just needs to reflect that movement and the cancer cells will break, twist, crack...
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Old 2011-08-16, 13:57   Link #699
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This isnít just limited to Imagine Breaker. Natural powers like yours are often initially set to conform to the environment or situation.
So is she saying that if Touma figures out how the rules behind Imagine Breaker work as Kumogawa once suggested, he can make it so people's souls will be destroyed if he touches them?

In a less malignant way, if he found out how to change its settings he would just have to make it so Imagine Breaker can target normal values as well. Then there's go reality. Gravity is being annoying right now? Break it.

Touma appears to have his doubts about Birdway's explanation though.
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Old 2011-08-16, 14:55   Link #700
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That would make his power a paradox. Power that cancels everything supernatural can exist only if the said power is natural. Something like the powers that fix the supposed micro cracks in space (heard this somewhere on discovery channel). Imagine breaker would be a power that fixes this universe by removing the cracks created by supernatural powers (stuff that should not be here). If it would cancel out even natural powers, it would cancel itself. And a power is a power, unless part of it is sealed, it is always complete, even if the user don't have full control of it. If it had potential to cancel natural stuff, it would already canceled itself. And if it has the potencial, then what is that power, if it's neither supernatural, nor natural... imaginary?
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