AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > Manga & Light Novels > To Aru... Index [LN/M]

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-08-16, 15:14   Link #701
Daft
Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Age: 23
The thing is, how can a power that destroys all supernatural phenomenon be considered natural. The laws of physics are "natural" in this world, because they are universal. Supernatural powers disrupt this. If Imagine Breaker was a natural phenomenon you would expect it to be a more common occurrence not just him. Hence the idea that Touma's ability truly exists completely separate from any rules humans can glean from... Imaginary indeed. Perhaps Aiwass will one day give us a better understandings using his other-dimensional thinking process.
Daft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-16, 15:58   Link #702
Zakoo
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Gensokyo
physics unlike mathematics aren't universal. I say it even though I know what you mean because it's really important in science to not think our view of the world is the only one.

Well actually I don't know for mathematics, maybe we have some high level mathematic guy here?
Zakoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-16, 17:48   Link #703
Flere821
Lurker
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daft View Post
The thing is, how can a power that destroys all supernatural phenomenon be considered natural. The laws of physics are "natural" in this world, because they are universal. Supernatural powers disrupt this. If Imagine Breaker was a natural phenomenon you would expect it to be a more common occurrence not just him.
Back in Volume 2 we found Touma's IB negation is like leaves decaying back into the ground, with magic naturally dissipating back into the planet (according to Index). At least that's when compared to other means like Aureolus' boundary field that forcibly erases all trace of magic in the area like another version of a Pharoah's Tomb.

So 'destroy all supernatural phenomenon' can still be 'natural'.
Flere821 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-16, 17:52   Link #704
Phibrizzo
Honos628
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Mexico
So pretty much is like the spell Flow break from slayers?

Quote:
Flow Break (Japanese: 崩魔陣フロウ・ブレイク, Kanji translation: Crumble Demon Ranks, Romaji: furou bureiku) is a defensive white magic[1] spell.

The spell negates the effects of all spells within the area, except for white magic, as all other spells take their strength from the energy created by altering the natural flow of energy; this spell negates them by returning the flow of energy to normal. It can be also used to break magic barriers.
Phibrizzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-16, 18:23   Link #705
Daft
Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Age: 23
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flere821 View Post
Back in Volume 2 we found Touma's IB negation is like leaves decaying back into the ground, with magic naturally dissipating back into the planet (according to Index). At least that's when compared to other means like Aureolus' boundary field that forcibly erases all trace of magic in the area like another version of a Pharoah's Tomb.

So 'destroy all supernatural phenomenon' can still be 'natural'.
The thing is, is magic supposed to dissipate so quickly? Unless it is, Imagine Breaker would appear to greatly speed up the process. If that is true I cannot see how something that forcefully accelerates a process can be natural when it just somehow appears in one irregular existence.

Maybe we'll be told eventually that I.B. really is some part of a natural process, but as of right now it seems to be an existence flying shotgun with the Holy Right in terms of categorization to me. But if the Holy Right is supposed to be natural too.... I'll shut my mouth now
Daft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-17, 00:36   Link #706
judasmartel
神の金槌 (ユダ=マーテル)
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Cainta, Rizal, Philippines
Wow, that was a pretty interesting discussion in there. But yeah, Accel became even more powerful than before when he lost to Touma the first time. That and the speculations abound that Accel's now paving his way through the Magic Side, possibly becoming a successful esper-mage hybrid himself, the possibilities for him are practically endless.
judasmartel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-17, 00:48   Link #707
Ettel
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Well Accel it's not inmortal, because he can't stop the aging(assuming he can) forever, he has his human limits, even if his power are god-like his mind are still human, he just can't do it forever.
Ettel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-17, 01:56   Link #708
Mr.Kyon
I crack you up
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Age: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ettel View Post
Well Accel it's not inmortal, because he can't stop the aging(assuming he can) forever, he has his human limits, even if his power are god-like his mind are still human, he just can't do it forever.
Unless he gets a epic cyborg body that isn't half-assed like Kuroyoru's and become Cylerator.

Or he can join Kakine in the fridge.
__________________
The One Who Has Snuffed God's Crack.

Believer of the Great Sumeragi.

One Does Not Simply Make Touma A Good Protagonist ~ The Truth.

"Kyon has set his 'enemy that must be defeated' to be 'bad writing' of the world. The more there is, the stronger his Holy Crack " ~ Chaos2Frozen.
Mr.Kyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-17, 02:10   Link #709
Drifting Wolf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by zaeraal View Post
But he does not need to stop the "growth" itself. He just needs to analyze the cancer cells as something bad (like what he does with everything around him - people attacking him, bullets, uv rays...) and then reflect it in any way he wants to. I mean did you saw what happened to people that tried to attack him? They didn't just bounced back like some Gummi Bears, but they had their arms twisted, bones broken, etc.. The body moves on celular level even if the owner is not trying to move, he just needs to reflect that movement and the cancer cells will break, twist, crack...
Those people had their arms twisted and broken thanks to the deflection of their own force and magnitude back to their owner. He doesn't control it. It's set to auto-deflect - Vector Value 2 back to 2.

FYI, the body is full of cancerous cells. They are only recognized as cancer when the growth goes out of control. If Accelerator tried to do what you suggested, he'd end up destroying his entire body. It's the same thing as bacteria - The body needs a balance of good and bad to be... well, balanced.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Daft View Post
The thing is, how can a power that destroys all supernatural phenomenon be considered natural. The laws of physics are "natural" in this world, because they are universal. Supernatural powers disrupt this. If Imagine Breaker was a natural phenomenon you would expect it to be a more common occurrence not just him. Hence the idea that Touma's ability truly exists completely separate from any rules humans can glean from... Imaginary indeed. Perhaps Aiwass will one day give us a better understandings using his other-dimensional thinking process.

Espers themselves can be considered artificial means of AIM power. Gemstones are born naturally but Imagine Breaker affects them as well and AIM itself has a detrimental effect on Mana, another natural source of energy. Think about it, was AIM created as a means to keep mana in check by the planet or was an evolutionary process whereby AIM was created as a response to mana? Certain phenomenon cannot occur without something else being the catalyst.

In another way, we can look at Imagine Breaker as - Was Imagine Breaker created as a means or a response to the supernatural? But then, we only define those powers as Supernatural. What if the supernatural was normal? Then what meaning does Imagine Breaker have in a world like that? In a world with supernatural power, Imagine Breaker's effects can be considered 'normal' and in a normal world, Imagine Breaker is still... well, normal. An ideal Right Hand - It has meaning in a world that needs it.

Last edited by Drifting Wolf; 2011-08-17 at 02:21.
Drifting Wolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-17, 16:53   Link #710
Flere821
Lurker
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Technically, the entire world is 'supernatural' if we go by any of the creation 'myths', and they don't necessarily have to be Christianity ones. God/s created the world, and the only reason why IB doesn't break everything is because they don't actively have supernatural energy in them (going back to the example from the first volume of how Touma can block magical fire but not the ash it left behind).
Flere821 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-23, 16:51   Link #711
Inept Forum User
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Question

This probably isn't going to happen, but how do you think temporal powers would interact with Imagine Breaker? (For example, if someone makes time stand still, would the Imagine Breaker merely allow Touma to move around or would it cancel the time freeze the moment it was present in it)
Inept Forum User is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-23, 17:27   Link #712
leukrota
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inept Forum User View Post
This probably isn't going to happen, but how do you think temporal powers would interact with Imagine Breaker? (For example, if someone makes time stand still, would the Imagine Breaker merely allow Touma to move around or would it cancel the time freeze the moment it was present in it)
It would depend on how that "time freeze" is manifested.

If it's a mind affliction (like in Code Geass) then only Touma would be able to move in it. Probably the same with a global effect (like angel fall... but that level is beyond an esper.)

If it's a localized time displacement (similar to the dimension displacement in Shakugan no Shana) then it would probably be dispelled as soon as Touma enters the area.

If it's a personal time displacement (as in accelerating his own timeframe) then Touma could only end it by touching him with his right hand... But that would be hard if not impossible to do even with "precognition."

At least, that's how I think it would behave for these cases.
leukrota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-25, 14:29   Link #713
ellifeedn
Thinker
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New York
This probably won't happen as well, but could the Imagine Breaker destroy ki attacks?
ellifeedn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-25, 17:00   Link #714
Chaos2Frozen
The Evil Within
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Moon that Wizard came from
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellifeedn View Post
This probably won't happen as well, but could the Imagine Breaker destroy ki attacks?
What exactly is a Ki/Chi attack?
Chaos2Frozen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-25, 23:18   Link #715
judasmartel
神の金槌 (ユダ=マーテル)
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Cainta, Rizal, Philippines
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
What exactly is a Ki/Chi attack?
You know, like Hadouken, Kamehameha, and some other Frickin' Laser Beams and Wave Motion Guns out there.
judasmartel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-25, 23:49   Link #716
Chaos2Frozen
The Evil Within
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Moon that Wizard came from
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
You know, like Hadouken, Kamehameha, and some other Frickin' Laser Beams and Wave Motion Guns out there.
...Then how is it not a supernatural ability by the definition given for this series ?

Consider this; Life Force = Magic.
Chaos2Frozen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-26, 06:13   Link #717
judasmartel
神の金槌 (ユダ=マーテル)
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Cainta, Rizal, Philippines
I think it's because Ki attacks have something to do about drawing power from nature, or from THEIR OWN SPIRIT ENERGY.

The problem is that in franchises where Ki attacks are introduced, spirit force is separate from life force. That is not the case in Index, as the spirit force (mana) needed to cast spells are derived from the magician's life force and a small fraction of energy from nature.

I would say that Ki attacks could be construed as Gemstone esper abilities developed OUTSIDE Academy City since it's not drawn from the user's life force. Flat What.

And to be fair, there shouldn't be a lot of people who do Ki attacks in Index considering that there are only 50 Gemstone espers in the world.

Of course, another way around it is to theorize that Ki attack users draw most of their powers FROM NATURAL ENERGY plus a small fraction of their life force.

So, yeah, Ki attackers are mages. It's just that Ki attacks are NOT runic magic, but rather a different kind of Functional Magic honed by integrating oneself to nature.

Spoiler for On another topic:

Last edited by judasmartel; 2011-08-27 at 22:25. Reason: Did (Not Do) The Research.
judasmartel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-08-27, 22:25   Link #718
judasmartel
神の金槌 (ユダ=マーテル)
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Cainta, Rizal, Philippines
On another topic:

Spoiler for IMO:
judasmartel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-09-07, 12:26   Link #719
ellifeedn
Thinker
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New York
Based on judasmartel's post, where do espers get their power from?
ellifeedn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-09-07, 13:59   Link #720
ovum
...Is a lightning bolt
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sweden
The real world Aleister Crowley believed in different ages where currently the age of horus is the
active where humans would start conquer their own reality and thus becoming gods themselves.

In the Toaruverse espers power is to replace reality with their own reality via the AIM field.

Quote:
Another one: Moses had the Holy Right, and Aaron had Imagine Breaker. Seriously, Korah's rebellion. More than 250 people "went down to hell alive" and got eaten by holy fire, then after God One-Hit-Killed 14,700 more people (Divine Punishment, guys), Aaron saved the people with "a purification ritual". Clearly, Aaron DID NOT have IB focused solely on his right hand.
Aaron could have used Divine Mother's Mercy also instead of IB
__________________
Sutr ferr sunnan
me sviga lvi:
skinn af sveri
sl valtiva.
-Surtr, fiery giant of Mspell
ovum is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
hard science, magic

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:41.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.