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Old 2013-04-12, 07:15   Link #1261
demino_hellsin
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Think of it this way. When someone performs a spell, it can be half formed, miss, or it doesnt work. Or it succeeds or is a critical hit. There are a multitude of possibilities. However majins have only 2 options. Succeed or fail. Exactly as is willed by the majin. There is no beyond expectations or under expectations. The character can nudge the direction of fate to somewhere but that's in a general direction. Even if they steer it, it would only go to another 50 or so other possibilities for example out of 200. But odin only has 2. Yes or no. Making it infinitely easier to shut down her fate.
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Old 2013-04-12, 07:58   Link #1262
Dyingbreath
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
Think of it this way. When someone performs a spell, it can be half formed, miss, or it doesnt work. Or it succeeds or is a critical hit. There are a multitude of possibilities. However majins have only 2 options. Succeed or fail. Exactly as is willed by the majin. There is no beyond expectations or under expectations. The character can nudge the direction of fate to somewhere but that's in a general direction. Even if they steer it, it would only go to another 50 or so other possibilities for example out of 200. But odin only has 2. Yes or no. Making it infinitely easier to shut down her fate.
So the ability is to make one outcome impossible? That's actually quite good... it's useful but not a story-breaker power... able to be used in a lot of different, interesting circumstances... clever.
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Old 2013-04-12, 09:40   Link #1263
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
Think of it this way. When someone performs a spell, it can be half formed, miss, or it doesnt work. Or it succeeds or is a critical hit. There are a multitude of possibilities. However majins have only 2 options. Succeed or fail. Exactly as is willed by the majin. There is no beyond expectations or under expectations. The character can nudge the direction of fate to somewhere but that's in a general direction. Even if they steer it, it would only go to another 50 or so other possibilities for example out of 200. But odin only has 2. Yes or no. Making it infinitely easier to shut down her fate.
All semantics - half formed, miss, or it doesn't work is just another way of saying failed.

It either works or it doesn't; how it doesn't work or works is just details.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyingbreath View Post
So the ability is to make one outcome impossible? That's actually quite good... it's useful but not a story-breaker power... able to be used in a lot of different, interesting circumstances... clever.
Not if you're gonna use it on a Maijin.

As I've said before, if she has to dig up some ancient power to change her fate, you think a mere simple human has the power to change it? No, so you will essentially create a person with the powers to overwrite a God-like character.

Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2013-04-12 at 09:52.
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Old 2013-04-12, 10:18   Link #1264
Dyingbreath
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
All semantics - half formed, miss, or it doesn't work is just another way of saying failed.

It either works or it doesn't; how it doesn't work or works is just details.
It's not all semantics. A reality warper's power is inherently different from anyone elses. When they will things to happen they just happen, with others they effect changes that cause something to happen and thus rely on, and can be influenced by, multiple factors meaning that it can fail or succeed on multiple levels.
Though according to my own argument that omnipotence and probability and free will are mutually exclusive, you're right in that there is only one possibility for an outcome and changing it is impossible unless you used the loophole of him being able to make a non existent outcome not happen, which makes sense...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Not if you're gonna use it on a Maijin.

As I've said before, if she has to dig up some ancient power to change her fate, you think a mere simple human has the power to change it? No, so you will essentially create a person with the powers to overwrite a God-like character.
Having the ability to beat a god does not make one a god oneself. Manipulating probability to that degree is a minor-level reality warping ability, it just so happens to be effective against a maijin.
For example, producing a large amount of peanuts out of nowhere is a very minor power. If Cthulu was allergic to peanuts then that power would allow you to beat him, but that doesn't make the power any more powerful.
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Old 2013-04-12, 10:29   Link #1265
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyingbreath View Post
Having the ability to beat a god does not make one a god oneself. Manipulating probability to that degree is a minor-level reality warping ability, it just so happens to be effective against a maijin.
For example, producing a large amount of peanuts out of nowhere is a very minor power. If Cthulu was allergic to peanuts then that power would allow you to beat him, but that doesn't make the power any more powerful.

A flawed analogy- To affect her odds, she has to use the power of a God. Therefore, when you produce the same effects to get the same results, you are saying that power is equal to that of a God.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Sigh, I can disprove that all or nothing misconception about the Maijin that you two seem to have gotten into your heads.

Let me ask you this- If a Maijin's spell is really all or nothing- tell me how did Ollerus survived a clearly successful spell attack from her during the Barrage City incident?
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Old 2013-04-12, 10:31   Link #1266
demino_hellsin
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She didn't imagine a spell that would kill him. She imagined a spell that would cause a lot of damage. Differernce in concept though similar in goals.
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Old 2013-04-12, 10:32   Link #1267
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
She didn't imagine a spell that would kill him. She imagined a spell that would cause a lot of damage. Differernce in concept though similar in goals.
Yet it cause no damage to him when it's clearly successfully cast, do you get it now?
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Old 2013-04-12, 10:34   Link #1268
demino_hellsin
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Describe to me instances of a majin's failed spell and the power retained by ollerus as a failed majin.
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Old 2013-04-12, 10:37   Link #1269
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
Describe to me instances of a majin's failed spell and the power retained by ollerus as a failed majin.
You're missing the point- You claimed that there are only two outcome- failure to cast or succeed to cast, yet here's another outcome where it's successful in casting and have a negative effect (Ollerus 'blocking' her spell).

Meaning it's entirely possible to have all that multiple outcomes that you say normal individuals would have.
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Old 2013-04-12, 10:40   Link #1270
demino_hellsin
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...? I'm gathering data, not using a question as a counter argument. Lacking data makes for bad arguments. I have only read wikia and no instances depicting either.
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Old 2013-04-12, 10:44   Link #1271
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
...? I'm gathering data, not using a question as a counter argument. Lacking data makes for bad arguments. I have only read wikia and no instances depicting either.
There is only one instance that we have seen her 'fail', and that is to pick up a box.

She had successfully picked it up- but her arm disconnected from it's joint and started to fall off.

The exact words she used was “…Tch. So it ended up in the negative 50% of the infinite possibilities.”
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Old 2013-04-12, 10:47   Link #1272
demino_hellsin
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Then the ability doesn't shut her down to 0... It'd just knock down her positive 50 by another 10 or 20 -_-"

That is the essence of the ability I speak of.

For example in a strategy RPG, your attack has an outlook. Most characters have 98 but othinus has 50. Now a character has a skill that reduces accuracy by a fixed percentage IE blind. They both suffer a 30 decrease. So normal characters have a hit rate of 68 but that leaves othinus with 20.
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Old 2013-04-12, 10:49   Link #1273
Dyingbreath
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
A flawed analogy- To affect her odds, she has to use the power of a God. Therefore, when you produce the same effects to get the same results, you are saying that power is equal to that of a God.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Sigh, I can disprove that all or nothing misconception about the Maijin that you two seem to have gotten into your heads.

Let me ask you this- If a Maijin's spell is really all or nothing- tell me how did Ollerus survived a clearly successful spell attack from her during the Barrage City incident?
I think there is more to a maijin than a simple will for something to happen. You must know what you want to happen and the mechanisms for affecting that change. She imagained a certain amount of damage she wanted to cause and the means with which to cause it but that amount was not enough to kill Ollerus because she miscalculated how much it would take to kill him.
Mythologically it would explain why Odin wanted to gain wisdom so much. The more he knew about the world the more accurate he could be with his reality warping and therefore the more successfully he could use it.
story wise it makes sense as well... If Othinus wanted to find or create a Holistic ESPer or gungnir it would be easy if the reality warping required no knowledge as she could simply will it into being, but if she needed to know everything about gungnir to create a perfect copy or understand exactly how a Holistic ESPer worked to create one, then she would need to figure that out.
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Old 2013-04-12, 10:54   Link #1274
tsunade666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
...? I'm gathering data, not using a question as a counter argument. Lacking data makes for bad arguments. I have only read wikia and no instances depicting either.
Everything she do is bound by 50/50 but the outcome isn't really just yes or no but positive and negative.

An infinite positive possibilities and infinite negative possibilities.

A strike that intended for an attack can lead to infinite possibilities in positive and negative.

Her intention is to attack. But the attack could be critical, lethal, killing blow, scatter, pierce through, disintegrate the enemy. blow a hole. All in infinite possibilities from just an attack intention.

While in negative the attack will miss, backfired, be counter or even explode on her face.

Yes she is yes or no but in infinite ways from infinite questions on yes or no.

Just like Kakine who has infinite possibilities and one of the possibilities is an error on the system.

The real form of infinity is goes both ways on infinite positive and infinite negative. Like numbers where you go go both ways from positive numbers and negative numbers.

The idea of attaining Spear of Gungnir is to remove the negative possibilities and left only the positive one.
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Old 2013-04-12, 10:55   Link #1275
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyingbreath View Post
I think there is more to a maijin than a simple will for something to happen. You must know what you want to happen and the mechanisms for affecting that change. She imagained a certain amount of damage she wanted to cause and the means with which to cause it but that amount was not enough to kill Ollerus because she miscalculated how much it would take to kill him.
Mythologically it would explain why Odin wanted to gain wisdom so much. The more he knew about the world the more accurate he could be with his reality warping and therefore the more successfully he could use it.
story wise it makes sense as well... If Othinus wanted to find or create a Holistic ESPer or gungnir it would be easy if the reality warping required no knowledge as she could simply will it into being, but if she needed to know everything about gungnir to create a perfect copy or understand exactly how a Holistic ESPer worked to create one, then she would need to figure that out.

Now you're just making things up as you go along.

I'm noticing that you're seem to have yet another impression that she can will things to happen. Not once did any of the exposition explaining about Maijin has ever said that they're doing that. Not once was there any indication that's how they work.

Not even the nuttiest of our lot has misinterpret that from any of her description.



Oh and also, even if she did miscalculate the damage, it still means that there are more than two outcomes.
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Old 2013-04-12, 10:59   Link #1276
demino_hellsin
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@tsunade: thank you for the more detailed description.

The ability to guide the fate does not allow absolute control because that's basically marble phantasm from nasuverse. What the ability does is narrow down the possible results. If you think of fate as a map, then all she does is point to a certain directiuon, the map can't be navigated perfectly because of the ijnfinite branches they have. All the character has to do is steer the fate to closer to the negative 50 while avoiding the best possibilities of the positive 50.
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Old 2013-04-12, 11:17   Link #1277
Dyingbreath
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Now you're just making things up as you go along.

I'm noticing that you're seem to have yet another impression that she can will things to happen. Not once did any of the exposition explaining about Maijin has ever said that they're doing that. Not once was there any indication that's how they work.

Not even the nuttiest of our lot has misinterpret that from any of her description.



Oh and also, even if she did miscalculate the damage, it still means that there are more than two outcomes.
The reason I'm making things up is that there isn't anything about how her power works. It is clearly a reality warping power no two ways about it, and reality warper powers have very few mechanisms of function. Other things are reasoning and speculation.
I admit that I did not know about the infinite number of outcomes so I was mistaken.
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Old 2013-04-18, 05:51   Link #1278
judasmartel
神の金槌 (ユダ=マーテル)
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Cainta, Rizal, Philippines
Hmm, okay, I have a question.

I like it how Misaka's lightning powers can be used in pretty much any situation.

- Her usual MO of course is to shock enemies to death.
- If things get nasty, a Railgun can do the trick. Need a stronger one?
- If she needs to go melee or mid-range, Iron Sand Sword does the trick, though AFAIK, she sucks as a swordsman. However, she may have improved her swordsmanship through fighting Saints and Valkyries in New Testament.
- She has to climb up a concrete building fast? She just sticks her hands and feet to the wall and lets the magnetism do the work.
- She can fly, too, but she needs a huge enough body of water to do it.

Now, about 2 years ago, there was a report of a young Filipino girl having the ability to create fire. So I was thinking, "If I'm going to make a fanfic about Academy City's Philippine branch (namely, the University Belt, so called because there are many famous universities in there), then I should show her as a grown-up teenager with fire-based esper powers, analogous to Misaka's lightning powers."

Of course, making her a Level 5 in-story would cause problems, so maybe I could make it so that she is one of the few Level 4's in the Philippines. Another thing is that I want to show how a Fire Esper can be just about as versatile in using her abilities as Misaka is.

So far, I have made up:

- Usual fire attack simply burns opponents up.
- A sufficiently skilled Fire Esper can materialize weapons out of her own flames; e.g. fire swords, fire bow, fire whip, etc.
- Of course, the fire esper should be resistant to her own flames, but the resistance may not extend to her clothes, so she might have to wear fire-proof clothes in combat.

So what do you think are the other uses of Fire-based Esper powers (regardless of level) asides those mentioned above?
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Old 2013-04-18, 06:20   Link #1279
demino_hellsin
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Wind manipulation by raising and lowering temperature. By extension waeather manipulation. One cannot make weapons out of fire. She can probably forge them by heating metyal though.
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Old 2013-04-18, 06:24   Link #1280
judasmartel
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Oh, what I was thinking. But hey, a Fire Esper can make weapons more powerful by heating them! How do you like them flaming swords, flaming arrows, and flaming whips? So it requires the Fire Esper to be proficient at weapons, I see.

So I guess Fire powers aren't that versatile, huh?
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