AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > Manga & Light Novels > To Aru... Index [LN/M]

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-04-18, 22:44   Link #1341
erneiz_hyde
Indifferent
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
Btw, remind me, if Touma could stop Misaka's railgun, then he should also be able to stop whatever Accelerator throws at him, right?
__________________
erneiz_hyde is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-18, 22:49   Link #1342
Chaos2Frozen
:)
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Moon that Wizard came from
Age: 25
Don't ask that please you'll open up an old can of worms

Long story short- it never happened, don't talk about it >_>
Chaos2Frozen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-18, 23:01   Link #1343
kagato3
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Btw, remind me, if Touma could stop Misaka's railgun, then he should also be able to stop whatever Accelerator hrows at him, right?
He could stop the magnetc feild that launches the coin but not the coin is not supernatrual.
__________________
Higurashi: Its a bit like watching a trainwreck, except you keep getting to see different trains wrecking with roughly the same passengers, into a variety of different objects. Also, the trains are driven by monkeys. On LSD.

kagato3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-18, 23:06   Link #1344
Rising Dragon
Goat Herder
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The middle of the Middle of Nowhere
Age: 27
It still should've caused some pretty nifty damage to him through momentum alone if he was within the 50m range. Outside of that he should've been safe, as the coin would've been destroyed. That's why it's a can of worms and it should be dropped.
__________________
Rising Dragon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-18, 23:11   Link #1345
leukrota
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Don't ask that please you'll open up an old can of worms

Long story short- it never happened, don't talk about it >_>
Too late, the worms have escaped, and they are armed. We better take cover.

EDIT:Phew, false alarm. I guess I was just seeing things.

Last edited by leukrota; 2013-04-18 at 23:49.
leukrota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-19, 06:24   Link #1346
demino_hellsin
That one guy
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Subatomic electrons move orbitally around a proton. What contributes to magnetism is charge and intrinsic reuirement to achieve stable configuration or an 8 electron configuration. Electricity is when the electrons make the jump to form this 8 electron configuration. At that point there is no voltage potential and electrons no longer flow.
demino_hellsin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-19, 20:12   Link #1347
Dyingbreath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
Subatomic electrons move orbitally around a proton. What contributes to magnetism is charge and intrinsic reuirement to achieve stable configuration or an 8 electron configuration. Electricity is when the electrons make the jump to form this 8 electron configuration. At that point there is no voltage potential and electrons no longer flow.
Not quite... electromagnetism is far more complex than that. The stablest form for all atoms is their base form, having 8 electrons in the outermost orbit is an ion for everything but the noble gases and therefore unstable.
Dyingbreath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-19, 20:22   Link #1348
demino_hellsin
That one guy
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Yes, but the main point is that the electron configuration is always striving to achieve an 8 electron configuration. That's why covalent bonds and ionic bonds happen. Even then it's harder to make 8 electron atoms/compounds react because you actually have to cause an instability first with a highly positively charged ion or negatively charged atom.

But I would like to know the theory behind why electricity creates magnetism instead of the other way around.

I always thought that magnetism was a way for electrons to close the distance between two atoms they want to jump across while electricity is them actually performing the jump. Which is why it's rare seeing electric sparks in real life.
demino_hellsin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-19, 21:06   Link #1349
kagato3
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
Yes, but the main point is that the electron configuration is always striving to achieve an 8 electron configuration. That's why covalent bonds and ionic bonds happen. Even then it's harder to make 8 electron atoms/compounds react because you actually have to cause an instability first with a highly positively charged ion or negatively charged atom.

But I would like to know the theory behind why electricity creates magnetism instead of the other way around.

I always thought that magnetism was a way for electrons to close the distance between two atoms they want to jump across while electricity is them actually performing the jump. Which is why it's rare seeing electric sparks in real life.

No that is all electric charge not a magnetic one. magnetism is in fact created by moveing charges. for instace in even in a none electricly charges peice of iron there is a small current running through it due to the electrons being shared amonst the atoms through Metallic bonding. these currents create random magnetic feilds with a net over all feild that is very weak. but this feild can be made stronger by aligning the feilds like runing it repeatedly through a magnetic feild makeing the internal current less random.
magnetism creates electricity as well. all elemetry particals have charges and magnetic moments, a quantity that determines the force that the magnet can exert on electric currents and the torque that a magnetic field will exert on it. what this means is a magnetic field can strip the electrons off of atoms if the force holding that electon is less then the the one the field exearts. substances that form metallic bonds are good for this as there are large numbers of "free" electrons with in the metal. So it you take some wire and move it through a magnetic field you will cause a charge to move through the wire but if you cause a charge to move through a wire you will create a magnetic field. see generators and Electromagnets

ok from wiki
Magnetism is a class of physical phenomena that includes forces exerted by magnets on other magnets. It has its origin in electric currents and the fundamental magnetic moments of elementary particles. These give rise to a magnetic field that acts on other currents and moments. All materials are influenced to some extent by a magnetic field. The strongest effect is on permanent magnets, which have persistent magnetic moments caused by ferromagnetism.

Magnetic fields are produced by moving electric charges and the intrinsic magnetic moments of elementary particles associated with a fundamental quantum property, their spin.

Electricity is the set of physical phenomena associated with the presence and flow of electric charge. Electricity gives a wide variety of well-known effects, such as lightning, static electricity, electromagnetic induction and the flow of electrical current. In addition, electricity permits the creation and reception of electromagnetic radiation such as radio waves.

In electricity, charges produce electromagnetic fields which act on other charges. Electricity occurs due to several types of physics:
electric charge: a property of some subatomic particles, which determines their electromagnetic interactions. Electrically charged matter is influenced by, and produces, electromagnetic fields.
electric current: a movement or flow of electrically charged particles, typically measured in amperes.
electric field (see electrostatics): an especially simple type of electromagnetic field produced by an electric charge even when it is not moving (i.e., there is no electric current). The electric field produces a force on other charges in its vicinity. Moving charges additionally produce a magnetic field.
electric potential: the capacity of an electric field to do work on an electric charge, typically measured in volts.
electromagnets: electrical currents generate magnetic fields, and changing magnetic fields generate electrical currents
__________________
Higurashi: Its a bit like watching a trainwreck, except you keep getting to see different trains wrecking with roughly the same passengers, into a variety of different objects. Also, the trains are driven by monkeys. On LSD.

kagato3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-19, 21:16   Link #1350
demino_hellsin
That one guy
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Then from what I can understand, Misaka's ability really is control of electron flow. Be it as a control of electrons themselves or voltage potential.

The matter with electricity flowing through an object is because the electrons between each atom of the matter is not always with the same electron configuration. They are however fairly tame in their jumps, or the voltage is negligible. When the electron moves more violently then the voltage becomes sensible. What you're saying then is that the these negligible volts occur before magnetism then :-?

but the question now is do these micro jumps cause magnetism, or does magnetism make these micro jumps?

For example, does a single atom have a magnetic field? or does it have voltage from the electrons traversing its own orbitals? :-?

Last edited by demino_hellsin; 2013-04-19 at 21:32.
demino_hellsin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-19, 21:48   Link #1351
Dyingbreath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
Then from what I can understand, Misaka's ability really is control of electron flow. Be it as a control of electrons themselves or voltage potential.

The matter with electricity flowing through an object is because the electrons between each atom of the matter is not always with the same electron configuration. They are however fairly tame in their jumps, or the voltage is negligible. When the electron moves more violently then the voltage becomes sensible. What you're saying then is that the these negligible volts occur before magnetism then :-?

but the question now is do these micro jumps cause magnetism, or does magnetism make these micro jumps?

For example, does a single atom have a magnetic field? or does it have voltage from the electrons traversing its own orbitals? :-?
There would need to be some level of that or she couldn't control her power but that can't be all or else she would need to produce a massive amount of electrons or collect them all from the environment. The calculations for converting Electron voltage to voltage are complex but 1 billion volts is a not insignificant weight of electrons spontaneously appearing from nowhere.
It would make more sense to alter the value of an electron volt to make simple sparks into massive lightning bolts. Then you could be turn negligible voltage into not so negligible without violating the basic laws of reality (just one of its constants...)
Dyingbreath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-19, 21:50   Link #1352
demino_hellsin
That one guy
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Then perhaps she literally creates the electricity by pulling electrons from her personal reality?
demino_hellsin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-19, 22:01   Link #1353
Dyingbreath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
Then perhaps she literally creates the electricity by pulling electrons from her personal reality?
That's the problem, that violates the basic rules of reality. Altering electron potential is much more realistic and workable in regards to laws of physics.
Dyingbreath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-19, 22:06   Link #1354
kagato3
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
Then from what I can understand, Misaka's ability really is control of electron flow. Be it as a control of electrons themselves or voltage potential.

The matter with electricity flowing through an object is because the electrons between each atom of the matter is not always with the same electron configuration. They are however fairly tame in their jumps, or the voltage is negligible. When the electron moves more violently then the voltage becomes sensible. What you're saying then is that the these negligible volts occur before magnetism then :-?

but the question now is do these micro jumps cause magnetism, or does magnetism make these micro jumps?

For example, does a single atom have a magnetic field? or does it have voltage from the electrons traversing its own orbitals?
EM is extremly complex and I still only have the most basic grasp of it even after getting my BS in EE so I'm likely sucking at explaining things.
short answear is both. Magnetic fields can move electrons and moveing electrons create a magnetic field. More commonly though these jumps are caused by voltage potental.

example

here is a iron wire
the I are Iron cations
the - is one of the free electrons

I I-I I-I I I I
I I I I-I I-I I
I-I I-I I I I I

the electrons will randomly move around the wire there is no net current, voltage diffrence or magnetic field


here is a iron wire with a current running through it
the I are Iron cations
the - is one of the free electrons
s and n are the north and south magnetic poles of the wire

ssssssssss
I I I I I I-I-I-
I I I I I I-I-I
I I I I I I I-I-
nnnnnnnnn

there is now a negitve potental at the right hand side of the wire.

now the next one I can't think of a good way to draw it but if you have the wire passing through a magnetic field you will start to see voltage potentals rise on one side thendrop to zero and the rise on the other side. in otherwords AC.

A single atom does have its own magnetic field but it does not tend to be stable it is made of the electrons fields which are random due to the nature of electron orbits. voltage is the electric potential difference between two points just jumping orbitals doesnt change the electric charge of atom unless the electron is either stripped or added to the atom.
__________________
Higurashi: Its a bit like watching a trainwreck, except you keep getting to see different trains wrecking with roughly the same passengers, into a variety of different objects. Also, the trains are driven by monkeys. On LSD.


Last edited by kagato3; 2013-04-19 at 22:27.
kagato3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-19, 22:14   Link #1355
demino_hellsin
That one guy
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
So both go hand in hand then?

What about a single atom? studying chemistry I'm pretty sure it's still attracted to something of opposite charge to itself to achieve 8 electron configuration which means it has something like a magnetic field. But does it exhibit signs of voltage via orbiting electrons?
demino_hellsin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-19, 22:18   Link #1356
Dyingbreath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
So both go hand in hand then?

What about a single atom? studying chemistry I'm pretty sure it's still attracted to something of opposite charge to itself to achieve 8 electron configuration which means it has something like a magnetic field. But does it exhibit signs of voltage via orbiting electrons?
No, typically an atom is stable, technically it does have a magnetic field but it's not big enough to effect a change.
And the thing is, atoms don't want to bond, they want to stay isolated, with the exception of the Hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, flourine, chlorine, bromine, and iodine which bond in pairs.
Dyingbreath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-19, 22:21   Link #1357
Rovert10
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Yes they do exhibit signs of voltages but it's a very very small amount for a single atom.

Spoiler for Electrochemistry:

This is with various elements/compounds in solution. It's the basis of how a battery works.

@Dyingbreath
Not true. Many atoms in their basic no charge elements are actually very reactive. Elements like Potassium are impossible to find by themselves in nature since they react so quickly.
Rovert10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-19, 22:25   Link #1358
demino_hellsin
That one guy
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Ah yes, I forgot about voltage potential.

Indeed about breath's statement. It made me wonder if all atoms are generally stable then that means no spontaneous reactions should ever occur. It felt kind of like an oxymoron or something.
demino_hellsin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-19, 22:26   Link #1359
Dyingbreath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rovert10 View Post
@Dyingbreath
Not true. Many atoms in their basic no charge elements are actually very reactive. Elements like Potassium are impossible to find by themselves in nature since they react so quickly.
Reactive yes but still more stable than not. looking at enropic value the delta H for standard element is 0 while for anything else it is higher meaning that the universe prefers them to be in their base state unbonded.
And about them not occurring...that's what suns are for, they use fusion and fission to create all those elements and then bond them.
Dyingbreath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-04-19, 22:27   Link #1360
Rovert10
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
No atom is completely stable. Not even the noble gases.
They are the most stable of all of them though.

Spontanity of reactions is determined by measurements of free energy (G) compared to heat of reaction (H) and entropy (S).

When was Delta H of every standard element of 0. Where are you citing this?
Rovert10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
hard science, magic

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:19.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.