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Old 2013-08-20, 01:36   Link #1701
dniv
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IMO what IB does is to dispel changes to the world. Essentially, Rensa was able to use her powers when IB was touching her because she basically ejects powers from other espers and emits them at a certain point where they can thus be negated after they leave her body. Because Touma presumably isn't used to fighting machines like her, I am guessing that he wasn't able to dispel her esper power like usual.

We might find out definitively if Touma's IB dispels magician's powers if he touches their hands in Volume 8 of NT because he might be holding hands while fighting

I think that the argument that too great a power stops IB from working properly is definitely valid... Though I am curious if the true IB can negate from a distance... and seal powers... there was a hint it might have done so in volume 22 even though that was more likely fear. I'm not sure if it actually has a larger radius of effect, but it would be cool.
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Old 2013-08-20, 02:09   Link #1702
Ashaman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allfictions View Post
But you were implying that touching Accelerator should've dispelled the wings.
And actually, OH&S's exemple confused me as it makes no sense with the volume s/he was speaking of. Quote anyone?
I think its this:

Quote:
Immediately afterwards, the fifty tons of airplane fuel ignited and intense heat and light filled the central lobby.

While it was better than having it sprayed into the air and vaporized, airplane fuel still had very different characteristics to gasoline.

Kamijou immediately grabbed Mikoto and hid behind the nearby pillar.

Mikoto blushed, but she still managed to hold out her right hand and used magnetism to create a wall of steel objects that protected the dumbfounded airport workers. The men in black suits knew much better than Kamijou and the others just what kind of person Birdway was, so they had already fled the area at full speed.
A weak example because we don't know how Mikoto was grabbed.

And an example for the other side.

Quote:
Acqua tried to dodge her attack.

But his own power as a Saint was sealed by Kanzaki, who was also a Saint. Trying to shake her off and use a Godís Right Seatís spell, he was negated by Kamijouís right hand.

ďOh.Ē
And here there is not enough information to form a decent conclusion considering we have no idea where in the process Acqua's spell was negated. While he was trying to convert mana/call in telesma or while he was actually trying to implement the spell?



Basically we don't have enough info - not unless someone can think of more examples?
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Old 2013-08-20, 03:38   Link #1703
versionf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allfictions View Post
Anyway, the fact that Ellis didn't disappear is because Ellis has an automatic mode:


meaning, it can function without Sherry supplying it with mana.

Now I'm getting really confused as to what you are arguing about.
I was talking about the first punch actually.
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Old 2013-08-20, 10:16   Link #1704
Gray Servant
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Quote:
Just as it looked like another bluish-white beam of light would appear from Thorís fingertips, Kamijou dashed over and grabbed his right wrist. The blade that could slice through steel disappeared before it could fully form.
From his fight with Thor. It could be that grabbing a limb only cuts off the mana flow to that particular limb though.
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Old 2013-08-21, 01:05   Link #1705
dniv
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray Servant View Post
From his fight with Thor. It could be that grabbing a limb only cuts off the mana flow to that particular limb though.
Well given that Mikoto wasn't able to shock Touma when he was criticizing her figure maybe he negated her powers... Oh wait that was probably shock instead that prevented her from responding It's ironic that it's shock
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Old 2013-08-21, 01:42   Link #1706
OH&S
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Post Reasoning with Imagine Breaker Mechanics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashaman
A weak example because we don't know how Mikoto was grabbed.
Indeed. But that wasn't really the point. What's more important is the kind of reasoning one uses to discern how Imagine Breaker works. People are too quick to jump to conclusions rather than calmly reasoning with all of the information being presented to them on how IB works throughout the LNs. To quote myself:
Quote:
Originally Posted by OH&S
Whether he can [stop an esper from using their powers by simply holding on to them] depends on a number of factors including what the ability actually is, where the ability is being applied and whether or not the phenomena created is one big thing to be negated (like Mikoto's lightning) or a collection of small things to be negated (like Index's Dragon Breath).
For example, if Shirai Kuroko held onto IB, she could not teleport [Kamijou+herself]; that is a given. However, she would not be able to teleport [just herself] either because she needs to disappear (destabilise) to move through the 11th dimension and IB negates the intitial destabilization because it is a supernatural phenomena. In this case her power really has been completely sealed off.
Spoiler for Side Note:


Now how about Misaka Mikoto? We know that she shoots electricity from her bangs. If Kamijou put IB on her head then she wouldn't be able to. But what about from her hands? Just because she normally shoots electricity from her head doesnt mean she can't use her hands to do so. After all, how else does she fire the railgun? In the one example we have from the railgun manga, Mikoto was specifically holding onto and targetting IB with the hand she wanted to pass electricity through. But what if she fired electricity from her bangs then? My guess is that he would have been fried. My reasoning is that just because the source of an esper's power is Personal Reality which is inside the brain, it doesn't mean any power created has to be outputted from the head. For example #1, #4, Bomber Lance, Pyrokinesis, etc, etc, etc.

Now the big question. Does it even make ANY sense for IB to stop an esper from using their powers by simply holding on to them. Remember IB only negates supernatural phenomena it comes into 'contact' with (physically touches). How could it negate the usage of Personal Reality of an esper's brain without physically touching the brain? What does it even mean when one says 'negate personal reality?' Is personal reality even a thing that can be negated?
Not only that, does it make any sense regarding any of the events that have occurred in the LNs? Assuming that he does, then Vol3 Accelerator isn't nearly as dangerous as he could be if TouMAN could just hold him with one arm and repeatedly punch him with the other. In NT7 when Rensa is about to kill him with #1's power while gripping his neck; wouldn't he be safe (at least from that power) if he just held onto that arm which is gripping him (ignoring any arguments stemming from the fact that Rensa is a cyborg; which shouldn't really change anything if you consider Bomber Lance...).

Doesn't it make more sense when considering Kamijou's actions in front of Acclerator that he could NOT seal ALL his abilities IB. Doesn't it make more sense that the black wings didn't disappear from Accelerator in Vol20 because Accelerator's body itself wasn't supernatural and independent from the wings? Why go to the extreme of saying that he could seal the use of personal reality of espers by holding onto them despite not touching anything supernatural. Why use complex reasoning that the black wings were too powerful to negate despite the fact that IB did not touch anything supernatural (minus reflection) when punching Accelerator? Why hasn't the author explicitly stated this when there is no reason not to? Why choose the alternative that opens more plot holes than the one that closes them (and makes far more sense)?

What about magicians? You have to be EVEN MORE careful when considering them because of how abstract the use of magic is coupled with the fact that it is following a set of laws different from science and unbelievably varied. Im not going to be touching this argument though...

In the end, what I really want to get across is: BE VERY Careful when making arguments and decisively strong claims. Make sure that the claim you make, takes into account all of the information that we have learnt and all of the scenarios we have read about in the LNs. Does the claim I make for Esper A als o make sense with Esper B?, etc...
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Last edited by OH&S; 2013-08-21 at 01:48. Reason: Small Addition
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Old 2013-08-21, 10:28   Link #1707
Gray Servant
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It's important to point out that Touma seems to have some measure of resistance throughout his body. Divine Punishment only targets the lungs but that never affected Touma, the amount of pollen from that Russian sorceress was apparently enough to cause multiple organ failure but only paralyzed his left arm, the heat from Thor's blades which set things on fire around him didn't burn him, etc.
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Old 2013-08-21, 14:04   Link #1708
Miraluka
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Magicians are different to Espers.

Magicians = work their whole body to execute magic. Example: Styil's Innocentius got dispelled once Oriana knocked him up; Aqua couldn't use his power as GRS once Touma touched him and at the same time couldn't use his Saint power because Kanzaki sealed him off.

Espers = Work their brain any disturbance or trauma can cause a malfunction on their powers.
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Old 2013-08-31, 06:23   Link #1709
kaizerknight01
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hmmm interesting video



watching this gave me food for thought on the meta physics and magical of TAMI

Note funny thing at some part of the video kinda reminds me of the Mikoto situation regarding Touma lolz
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Old 2013-09-05, 04:16   Link #1710
clannadkanon
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Well this just came into my mind and I don't know if anyone already said it but...

What if Aogami's Level 0 ability is something called "3 Measures/Sizes"? Like how he can accurately measure the "three sizes" up to the decimals?
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Old 2013-09-05, 06:47   Link #1711
demino_hellsin
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Someone had that idea once methinks.

Anyone here who doesn't know what specific heat means? I was wondering what power level one would put them in if she could change it in magnitudes of 10^+/-6
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Old 2013-09-05, 10:16   Link #1712
Hiss13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
Someone had that idea once methinks.

Anyone here who doesn't know what specific heat means? I was wondering what power level one would put them in if she could change it in magnitudes of 10^+/-6
I would put that at Level 4. Although, what units would you be talking about? There are so many units for specific heat like J/mol*K or Kcal/g*K. Depending on what unit you're referring to, the changes in order of magnitude may not be as big as you may think they are.
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Old 2013-09-05, 10:18   Link #1713
demino_hellsin
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KJ/(kg*K)

so that puts her abilities at changing scales up to millijoules or terrajoules.
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Old 2013-09-05, 10:20   Link #1714
Hiss13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
KJ/(kg*K)

so that puts her abilities at changing scales up to millijoules or terrajoules.
That should be Level 5 class. You're talking about being able to make things almost completely conductive to heat or completely resistant to heat/changes in temperature.
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Old 2013-09-05, 10:23   Link #1715
demino_hellsin
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Yeah... it would confuse her enemies how she could freeze and burn things without causing an unnatural change in heat flow.

so maybe magnitude of 1000s?

KJ to Mega Joules or just plain Joules.
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Old 2013-09-05, 10:29   Link #1716
Hiss13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
Yeah... it would confuse her enemies how she could freeze and burn things without causing an unnatural change in heat flow.

so maybe magnitude of 1000s?

KJ to Mega Joules or just plain Joules.
That would probably be more Level 3/Level 4-ish although I would lean more to Level 3. [10^(-3,3) J/(kg*K)]
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Old 2013-09-05, 10:34   Link #1717
demino_hellsin
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should I add another magnitude of 10 to make it a level 4 ability? how about I close it at 10^5?
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Old 2013-09-05, 10:41   Link #1718
Hiss13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
should I add another magnitude of 10 to make it a level 4 ability? how about I close it at 10^5?
I think it would be better to close it at 10^(-5,5) J/(kg*K) to make it a Level 4
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Old 2013-09-05, 10:43   Link #1719
demino_hellsin
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okay thanks then.
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Old 2013-09-11, 10:03   Link #1720
desrtsku
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I just need to confirm something. What are the chances Accelerator is the science side version of Index?
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