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Old 2014-03-25, 21:47   Link #1881
Birdway
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Old 2014-03-25, 21:51   Link #1882
Doom_Paperclip
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Religion was not "used to cast any filters" You are implying that phases are solely made up of magical effects from spells and the like that utilize religion when they aren't. From the vague wording in the relevant line, it is entirely possible the mere existence of the concept of religion adds filters without anyone deliberately casting any magic; in other words, religion itself being a distortion on the pure world
Even if it wasn't consciously cast, there could still be a distinction between religion and the phases it produces. Nothing you said invalidates by bees/honey simile. I never claimed that the ones doing the casting were aware of what they were doing. Just because religion allows the filters to come into being, doesn't mean it is itself a distortion. In fact, it clearly isn't.

I mean, think about it. Religion is ultimately a series of beliefs. Beliefs are a series of statements that our minds classify as fact without any overt evidence. Facts are a type of knowledge. Knowledge is stored in the neurons in our brains in ways we don't quite understand yet. Nothing supernatural about any of that. None of us need any special power in real life to be religious.

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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Merely all your own interpretation....In the end, what you state isn't 100% fact as well. For all you know, as long as Imaginary Number District is sustained, Hyouka will reform if her "body" is slain or that the symbol in case of Angels is an extension of the element
I never claimed 100% accuracy. If you read back, you'll see that my point is to demonstrate that for all we know, angels might be able to be destroyed, not that they certainly can be. 50% fact is good enough for me.

But for what it's worth, Hyouka almost certainly cannot reform on her own. If she could do that, then she would have formed spontaneously in the first place. It took IB, an external factor, causing the Imaginary Number District to know the concept of "death" to trigger her formation. The district was already there long before she appeared.

Since she could not form on her own, there is no reason she should be able to reform on her own when destroyed. Furthermore, even if Aleister could arrange for another AIM angel to be made to replace her, something he almost certainly can do, that new angel would not be Hyouka but a distinct individual without her memories or personality. Hyouka herself would be dead.
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Old 2014-03-25, 23:58   Link #1883
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip View Post
Even if it wasn't consciously cast, there could still be a distinction between religion and the phases it produces. Nothing you said invalidates by bees/honey simile. I never claimed that the ones doing the casting were aware of what they were doing. Just because religion allows the filters to come into being, doesn't mean it is itself a distortion. In fact, it clearly isn't.

I mean, think about it. Religion is ultimately a series of beliefs. Beliefs are a series of statements that our minds classify as fact without any overt evidence. Facts are a type of knowledge. Knowledge is stored in the neurons in our brains in ways we don't quite understand yet. Nothing supernatural about any of that. None of us need any special power in real life to be religious.
So it is in a "normal" world. But in Index, where "religion" is considered a distortion on the base world which is consisted of "science untouched by religion"? It is quite clear that in Index, religion isn't just some intangible belief and has more of a direct effect on the cosmology

Actually the very fact that To Aru-verse religion itself is capable of producing phases to affect the world is sign that it is more than "ideas" per se.

And how would religion and its resultant phases be separate? They are both linked. Using your bee/honey analogy, the honey may be a different thing from the bee but the honey still requires the bee for it to come into being

If your bee does not have the capability of producing honey, which would be the analogue to if religion to be having no supernatural effect, then the honey of the phases would not even be an issue.

Quote:
But for what it's worth, Hyouka almost certainly cannot reform on her own. If she could do that, then she would have formed spontaneously in the first place. It took IB, an external factor, causing the Imaginary Number District to know the concept of "death" to trigger her formation. The district was already there long before she appeared.

Since she could not form on her own, there is no reason she should be able to reform on her own when destroyed. Furthermore, even if Aleister could arrange for another AIM angel to be made to replace her, something he almost certainly can do, that new angel would not be Hyouka but a distinct individual without her memories or personality. Hyouka herself would be dead.
Unknown actually....

The purpose of the District is to give rise to an AIM Angel. Aleister in all likelihood, factored IB in as the catalyst for that. Whether Hyouka is the manifestation of the District in such way that she will be spawned from it with certainty is unknown.

And then, you look at Aiwass itself. It is an Angel, that much has been explicitly stated as well as Angels being representations of their element. There's strong hints Aiwass represents the Horus Aeon but then it gets murky from there. The world when Aiwass first appeared to Aleister, was not in Horus yet. In fact it only moved towards it with the Book of Law given by Aiwass to Aleister...

So how did Aiwass come about? Other than the hint in vol 22 that it's something related to humanity as a whole, it's unknown

In fact, Aiwass itself is rather nonchalant about the prospect of its own core being destroyed since it would reform anyway. So unless IB can affect what sustains an Angel through its physical form alone....no, it's quite unlikely Gabriel is dead.

Banished maybe, but not destroyed.
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Old 2014-03-26, 04:01   Link #1884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
So it is in a "normal" world. But in Index, where "religion" is considered a distortion on the base world which is consisted of "science untouched by religion"? It is quite clear that in Index, religion isn't just some intangible belief and has more of a direct effect on the cosmology

Actually the very fact that To Aru-verse religion itself is capable of producing phases to affect the world is sign that it is more than "ideas" per se.

And how would religion and its resultant phases be separate? They are both linked. Using your bee/honey analogy, the honey may be a different thing from the bee but the honey still requires the bee for it to come into being

If your bee does not have the capability of producing honey, which would be the analogue to if religion to be having no supernatural effect, then the honey of the phases would not even be an issue.
So, your reasoning is that since it can produce distortions like phases, religion must be a distortion itself? Going by that reasoning, people must be distortions, since they can produce religion, which is a distortion. Furthermore, life itself must be a distortion, since it can give rise to people. It doesn't end there either, matter must be a distortion, since it can give rise to life. Indeed, the whole world must be a distortion and the Pure World consists of perfect nothingness. I believe we can agree that this conclusion is absurd.

At some point, you have to draw a line between supernatural phenomena and natural phenomena that can give rise to supernatural phenomena but are not supernatural themselves. I believe that it is not unreasonable to assume that, as a rule of thumb, anything that exists in real life is not a distortion in the TAMNI world. (However, the opposite, that anything that does not exist in real life is a distortion in the TAMNI world, is probably not true.)

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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Unknown actually....

The purpose of the District is to give rise to an AIM Angel. Aleister in all likelihood, factored IB in as the catalyst for that. Whether Hyouka is the manifestation of the District in such way that she will be spawned from it with certainty is unknown.
Not sure what you mean by unknown. Aleister directly stated in the Epilogue of Volume 6 that IB was used to cause the district to spawn Hyouka. Until then, the district's behavior was uncontrolled and unpredictable, to the point where the right stimulus could have even made the whole thing explode and wipe AC off the map (something that was attempted in the finale of the second season of the Railgun S anime).

Furthermore, I think you have it slightly backwards. The purpose of the Imaginary Number District is not to spawn Hyouka. Hyouka was spawned in order to control the District, much like Fiamma used Gabriel to control the sky and reset the heavenly elements.

In any case my point is if Hyouka needed help to form, by means of Aleister fine tuning the district with the help of IB and whatnot, then she would also need help to revive. Furthermore, it is doubtful that the district holds back-ups of her memories and personality outside of her body, which would have been destroyed in any circumstances that would require her to be revived.

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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
And then, you look at Aiwass itself. It is an Angel, that much has been explicitly stated as well as Angels being representations of their element.
Not exactly:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume 19
“—Dragon, huh?”

That thing opened its mouth.

Though that thing was in a humanoid shape, Accelerator felt there was nothing more wrong than that thing being capable of human speech.

“That name is not exactly wrong, to a point. Rather, calling me an ‘angel’ is alright too… At least, it’s closer to the truth compared to the rumored ‘extraterrestrial life form’, ‘holy guardian angel’, ‘the true person who holds the secrets to modern Western magic organizations’ and wild ideas like those. Though, my existence, is something completely different from the angels recorded in the Bible. So, to more accurately describe my presence, the aforementioned word should be used.”
Aiwass is not an angel. "Angel" is merely one of the words that mortals have that comes closest to describing Aiwass, but ultimately it is only a crude approximation of what it really is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume 19
There's strong hints Aiwass represents the Horus Aeon but then it gets murky from there. The world when Aiwass first appeared to Aleister, was not in Horus yet. In fact it only moved towards it with the Book of Law given by Aiwass to Aleister...

So how did Aiwass come about? Other than the hint in vol 22 that it's something related to humanity as a whole, it's unknown
Chances are, it is not related to humanity at all:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume 19
“Let us speak of history,” Aiwass said suddenly changing the topic. “The humans that live on the surface of this planet do quite a bit in the name of preserving their environment. They say that most of the plants and animals will go extinct if things do not change, so they diligently gather up empty cans and lower the amount of smoke they produce.”

“Well, some people are rather zealous about that kind of thing.”

“Are you humans taking these actions solely to get people to watch you?”

“What the hell is your point?”

“I am merely saying that history does not change in the slightest,” Aiwass responded smoothly. “This planet once had an ice age. The environment changed drastically and most plants and animals went extinct. …But did history itself come to an end? Whether the tiny beings clinging to the surface live or die, the flow of time continues on unchanged. Even if a worldwide nuclear war began right here and now and every life form on the surface of the earth were completely annihilated, it would have no effect on the thick pillar of history. In ten thousand years or in one hundred thousand years, something else would come forth in the place of the current life forms.”

“…”

“This is the same. I may not be a being that should be a part of this dimension’s history. It seems the man known as Aleister is persistent in his desire to use me, but it is no problem to me if his plan suffers a major setback. It may take ten thousand years or one hundred thousand years, but I will have another opportunity to asbuAPPEARoagbv…I mean, appear. Even that is of little value to me.”
It is not outright stated, but it is heavily implied that Aiwass does not require humans or their culture to "appear". Any sufficiently advanced life form would do. At the very least, I saw nothing in Volume 22 that ties Aiwass to humanity in the way you suggested it does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
In fact, Aiwass itself is rather nonchalant about the prospect of its own core being destroyed since it would reform anyway.
Again, not exactly:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume 22
“I am happy,” Aiwass said in response as it lightly spread out its hands. “Or rather, I am rejoicing that the pleasant time looks like it will last even longer. Aleister is in a little too much of a hurry. It will all be over in no time at all with methods like that. It is like having someone hit a domino from the side before you have managed to line up very many of them. If I am to enjoy this situation, it is best if I temporarily head down to a deeper place. Livestock must be fattened up before they are eaten.”

“That is what you are doing this for?”

“Indeed. Regardless of whether I had appeared or not, that control tower would not have lasted long. There was a lack of strength in the lining up of the dominos. As such, I gave him the hint he needed to provide the needed strength. …And he did well. That method was less eliminating me and more of a transference to a different domain, but, well, that was enough to be an excellent job.”

Did it have value or interest?

That was the criterion on which that existence acted and it was an existence that could easily destroy the planet were it to decide the planet were unnecessary.

“I think you should learn more about humans.”

“?”

“It is odd for you to not know in the first place. Our physical bodies are supported by their power. Enough possibility sleeps within them to give us form. It goes without saying that humans are incredibly strong beings. …If you take them lightly, you may find yourself stabbed through the chest before long.”

“What are you saying?” responded Aiwass without holding back a sense of exaltation even while receiving Kazakiri’s gaze. “If those fragile humans could actually do that…wouldn’t that be a truly interesting case?”
It's not that Aiwass isn't worried about being destroyed because it can reform. Aiwass isn't worried about being destroyed, period. It can talk like humans, but its mind is structured completely differently. It has 0 regard for itself or its power, no instinct of self-preservation whatsoever. Aleister had to sneak in self-defense mechanisms into its manifestation just to stop it from seeking its own destruction on a whim. The only thing it cares about, the only question it asks itself before doing anything, is "if I do this, will the result be interesting?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
So unless IB can affect what sustains an Angel through its physical form alone....no, it's quite unlikely Gabriel is dead.

Banished maybe, but not destroyed.
Given all of the above, I don't believe it is possible to make valid arguments about Gabriel based on Aiwass. On these grounds, I reject your conclusions. Nothing you have said has made it more or less likely for Gabriel to have survived or died. Both possibilities are still equally open.
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Old 2014-03-26, 19:30   Link #1885
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Such argument... why don't just acept that Gabriel still exists?

Necessarius itself said Gabriel returned to its rightful place after Touma crashed the SoB in the sea.
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Old 2014-03-26, 22:01   Link #1886
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Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
Such argument... why don't just acept that Gabriel still exists?

Necessarius itself said Gabriel returned to its rightful place after Touma crashed the SoB in the sea.
Not really. I already addressed this point previously. Well, I won't blame you since this argument is very long, but please make an effort to follow the discussion next time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume 22
A gloomy atmosphere was created in that cathedral separate from the great celebration of victory. Business-like reports continued to come in reporting that Misha Kreutzev had disappeared and that the four great elements had been reset to their proper positions.
They did not say "the four great elements had been reset to their proper positions because Misha Kreutzev had disappeared". The two facts may not be connected at all. As a matter of fact...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume 22
At that time, the archangel that had cooperated with Fiamma of the Right once more regained her body in that wintery land of Russia.

The fluctuation in the four great elements had been fixed by Fiamma. She was no longer Misha, a mix of Michael and Gabriel. She was now a genuine archangel. It was not wrong to say that her goal had been accomplished to a certain extent by that.
The great elements had already returned to their proper places before Gabriel was defeated via IB. In other words, the reports could have very well been saying " Misha Kreutzev had disappeared. Coincidentally, the four great elements had also been reset to their proper positions sometime before".

Gabriel is a symbol of the element of water. It wields influence over water and you can use it to control that element, but ultimately a symbol is only a representation of a thing, not the thing itself. Gabriel could not survive without the element of water, but it was never stated that the element of water could not survive without Gabriel.

Also, one point I repeatedly brought up but has never been fully addressed. If IB could return Gabriel to heaven, which was its one and only wish, why didn't it give Touma a handshake instead of repeatedly putting the entire planet at risk? I believe that this is because Gabriel concluded that negation by IB would mean its death. So far, nobody has brought conclusive evidence to the contrary.
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Old 2014-03-26, 22:36   Link #1887
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Because in truth nobody knew what would happen if IB and the archangel made contact. Remember that angels are only masses of telesma which run through leylines that IB cannot destroy. That is to say IB didn't destroy Misha so much as disperse her. It undid the bind of summoning retained from Fiamma's spell.

As for why she didn't shake Touma's hand. If it means waking up to reality from a nightmare, would you commit suicide? It's just a dream and you'll wake up. No harm, no foul.

Basically, Gabriel could shake Touma's hand and return to heaven, but has to endure the whole being ripped into shreds of Telesma first.
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Old 2014-03-26, 22:43   Link #1888
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Quote:
They did not say "the four great elements had been reset to their proper positions because Misha Kreutzev had disappeared". The two facts may not be connected at all. As a matter of fact...
1. Misha is a product of that distortion. Fiamma fixed it and later the archangel that took form and started to absorb special water was Gabriel,.

2. You just quoted what proves my point 1.

Quote:
The great elements had already returned to their proper places before Gabriel was defeated via IB. In other words, the reports could have very well been saying " Misha Kreutzev had disappeared. Coincidentally, the four great elements had also been reset to their proper positions sometime before".
Yet they didn't, follow the sequence then.

Quote:
Gabriel is a symbol of the element of water. It wields influence over water and you can use it to control that element, but ultimately a symbol is only a representation of a thing, not the thing itself. Gabriel could not survive without the element of water, but it was never stated that the element of water could not survive without Gabriel.
Not just the water, also the moon, blue, etc. Any magician who uses water magic would notice if the source of that power related to water suddenly dissapears.

Take the previous fight as example, everyone vs "Misha" when the anchors got destroyed by Touma who was aboard SoB it became unstable and lost its form and became energy and later dissapeared of sight but in reality the archangel still existed in the material world.

Also, there is no point arguien if Gabriel is dead, if it was really dead it would have been mentioned already with things like "Touma killed an angel" instead of deafeating it or blaming him for causing yet another distortion that Fiamma worked hard to fix. So no. It still exists.

Quote:
Also, one point I repeatedly brought up but has never been fully addressed. If IB could return Gabriel to heaven, which was its one and only wish, why didn't it give Touma a handshake instead of repeatedly putting the entire planet at risk? I believe that this is because Gabriel concluded that negation by IB would mean its death. So far, nobody has brought conclusive evidence to the contrary.
Really need to ask that? IB is harmful to their material form, even if it returns then back to heaven nobody would take such painful medicine and at the time Gabriel had orders like retrieven the parchment, protecting the SoB and arranging the stars for Fiamma.
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Old 2014-03-26, 23:33   Link #1889
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Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
1. Misha is a product of that distortion. Fiamma fixed it and later the archangel that took form and started to absorb special water was Gabriel.

2. You just quoted what proves my point 1.

Yet they didn't, follow the sequence then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume 22
But he could not stop. As Kamijou continued heading for the #9 spiritual item, Stiyl spoke.

“Why is Misha Kreutzev rising now!?”

At that time, the archangel that had cooperated with Fiamma of the Right once more regained her body in that wintery land of Russia.

The fluctuation in the four great elements had been fixed by Fiamma. She was no longer Misha, a mix of Michael and Gabriel. She was now a genuine archangel. It was not wrong to say that her goal had been accomplished to a certain extent by that.
Necessarius did not realize that Gabriel was no longer Misha. If I understand the point you were trying to make, this invalidates it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
Not just the water, also the moon, blue, etc. Any magician who uses water magic would notice if the source of that power related to water suddenly dissapears.

Take the previous fight as example, everyone vs "Misha" when the anchors got destroyed by Touma who was aboard SoB it became unstable and lost its form and became energy and later dissapeared of sight but in reality the archangel still existed in the material world.

Also, there is no point arguien if Gabriel is dead, if it was really dead it would have been mentioned already with things like "Touma killed an angel" instead of deafeating it or blaming him for causing yet another distortion that Fiamma worked hard to fix. So no. It still exists.
I already pointed out that due to the way magic works in TAMNI, spells can still work even if the object they reference no longer exists, or indeed never existed. Thus, spells based on Gabriel can exist without the Archangel they call upon.

I also pointed out that distortions in heaven have 0 negative effects on Earth. I doubt anyone would blame Touma for distorting heaven, something that has no consequences, when the alternative was letting Gabriel destroy the planet.

For more details about the previous two points, look further back in the discussion. I repeated myself once, I won't do so again. As an additional point, I express doubt in Necessarius' ability to tell what's going on in heaven when they hadn't noticed the distortion in the first place, nor could they tell that Gabriel had become pure again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
Really need to ask that? IB is harmful to their material form, even if it returns then back to heaven nobody would take such painful medicine and at the time Gabriel had orders like retrieven the parchment, protecting the SoB and arranging the stars for Fiamma.
Quote:
Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
Because in truth nobody knew what would happen if IB and the archangel made contact. Remember that angels are only masses of telesma which run through leylines that IB cannot destroy. That is to say IB didn't destroy Misha so much as disperse her. It undid the bind of summoning retained from Fiamma's spell.

As for why she didn't shake Touma's hand. If it means waking up to reality from a nightmare, would you commit suicide? It's just a dream and you'll wake up. No harm, no foul.

Basically, Gabriel could shake Touma's hand and return to heaven, but has to endure the whole being ripped into shreds of Telesma first.
You guys are applying human standards to a being to which they do not apply. A human may not be willing to suffer pain to return home, but Gabriel is inhuman. Returning to heaven is it's one and only goal in comparison to which, nothing else matters. Besides, does it even feel pain to begin with?

The "dispersed its body/undid summoning and returned it to heaven" is just your favorite theory. I won't fully deny that that might be the case, but you have no conclusive evidence against destruction either.

@demino_hellsin, Telesma does not flow through the Ley Lines. That's the power of the world, which is something entirely different. Telesma exists in a different phase entirely.
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Old 2014-03-27, 00:00   Link #1890
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I could've sworn that index explained that Mana was untempered telesma, free form magical energy that originates from humans and living things. Telesma is mana with a set elemental alignment and usage which flows through leylines as per volume 2 of old testament.

if we each have our theories and none of us can prove ourselves conclusively right, then why do you keep pushing to have the last word? Logically it's because you are pushing your theory as correct. Either that or your pride just won't let you quit.

Also, it's not a matter of what type of being Gabriel is. They have already said that angels are a living thing. It was already said that Kazakiri instinctively avoided IB and so did Misha Kreutzev. I'd say that's fair evidence that even angels are afraid of being ripped to shredded telesma.
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Old 2014-03-27, 01:24   Link #1891
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Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
I could've sworn that index explained that Mana was untempered telesma, free form magical energy that originates from humans and living things. Telesma is mana with a set elemental alignment and usage which flows through leylines as per volume 2 of old testament.
That Volume did not equate Telesma with the power of the world. This point isn't very important to the main discussion, so I won't elaborate on it unless you demand me to.

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Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
if we each have our theories and none of us can prove ourselves conclusively right, then why do you keep pushing to have the last word? Logically it's because you are pushing your theory as correct. Either that or your pride just won't let you quit.
Well, I won't deny that I enjoy having the last word as much as the next person. However, my point was never to prove my theory, but to prove that your theory is not the only valid one. I said this before, but it ticks me off that everyone takes Gabriel's survival for granted when other possibilities are available. Is it really too much to ask for you to read a page or two back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
Also, it's not a matter of what type of being Gabriel is. They have already said that angels are a living thing. It was already said that Kazakiri instinctively avoided IB and so did Misha Kreutzev. I'd say that's fair evidence that even angels are afraid of being ripped to shredded telesma.
We can agree on that. However, we disagree as to why they fear IB. You say they fear IB because they are afraid of pain. I say they fear IB because they are afraid of death.
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Old 2014-03-27, 01:27   Link #1892
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Telesma is relevant because in angel fall arc, angels were described as masses of telesma. The very nature of Gabriel's existence is being discussed, brushing it off as unimportant is ignoring major argument.

I give you your last word. And my argument is not the bottom line. I said my piece and I will no longer defend it.

Death on the physical plane then. I agree with you that they are afraid to die.
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Old 2014-03-27, 04:01   Link #1893
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
You just didn't think it was a Dragon's head after seeing it was a Dragon's head but instead thought it wasn't a Dragon's head and was surprised that it was in fact a Dragon's head, and that you truly did saw a Dragon's head and now you're convinced it's only a Dragon's head because you saw just a Dragon's head.
Spoiler for from another thread ... Now I get it:
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Old 2014-03-27, 04:18   Link #1894
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Funny thing, I doubt that Kamachi is just so simple a writer to have his greatest secret to just be released as something so underwhelming as this. There's probably some context so as to explain the situation with the dragon head. Just as with Aurelious, it was explained that the dragon was the only thing Aurelious could imagine that thing as.
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Old 2014-03-27, 05:50   Link #1895
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Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
Funny thing, I doubt that Kamachi is just so simple a writer to have his greatest secret to just be released as something so underwhelming as this. There's probably some context so as to explain the situation with the dragon head. Just as with Aurelious, it was explained that the dragon was the only thing Aurelious could imagine that thing as.
No. In the novels that was what Stiyl assumed. However, there was enough significant doubt by Kamijou Touma on whether that really happened or not for us to also be skeptical about that information. Railgun Ch 69 is proof that it wasn't Aureolus who imagined that dragon head; or to call it by its proper name: Dragon Strike (Jaw of the Dragon King).

However, that's all it proved. We still don't know WHAT it is. It certainly LOOKS like a dragon but there's nothing else we can say about it.

And I'll say it once more in this thread: dragon imagery has been associated with IB since Index Volume 1. Even if it turns out to be a dragon, it is consistent with everything we have observed.

We still know next to nothing about it and yet people are disappointed by this small revelation? By now it should have been a given; this is just extra confirmation.

The real question is whether or not the Dragon Strike is the Invisible Thing or the power that crushed the Invisible Thing OR like Will-chan's current life/death state, something slightly more complex...
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Old 2014-03-27, 06:05   Link #1896
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But I'm pretty sure that Touma wondered if the dragon was only in Aurelious head. There was no complete neglect that Aurelious imagery might be partly his own vision.

What I'm saying maybe it looks like a dragon but it's not a dragon at all?

Remember that dragons here are also known as fallen angel. Fallen angels can also indicate devils. Then if you want to over think it, link it to our hero's alternative interpretation of name.

"The invisible demon that stands above god"
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Old 2014-03-27, 06:20   Link #1897
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Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
But I'm pretty sure that Touma wondered if the dragon was only in Aurelious head. There was no complete neglect that Aurelious imagery might be partly his own vision.
True it was mere speculation, but that's all that was needed. Toaru Majutsu no Index is ultimately a story about deception, and Kamachi's favourite trope is the Chekov's Gun. If Kamijou had doubt over the reason why the dragon appeared, it was because it was doubtful in the first place. That's why the invisible thing in Volume 22 was so exciting; Kamachi set up a Chekov's Gun by placing doubt on the reasoning behind the Dragon Strike's appearance in Volume 2 and when the gun fired in Volume 22, the initial doubt we had proved true.

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What I'm saying maybe it looks like a dragon but it's not a dragon at all?
Exactly, me too. But don't be disappointed if it does turn out to be a dragon.

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Remember that dragons here are also known as fallen angel. Fallen angels can also indicate devils. Then if you want to over think it, link it to our hero's alternative interpretation of name.

"The invisible demon that stands above god"
Everything I have said has not taken the existence of magic into account. ie. what it actually is, not what it symbolically implies.
It's still mere speculation if we analyze it using mythology. There's just nothing definite to work with apart from what we see and read in the novels.
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Old 2014-03-27, 07:32   Link #1898
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No, what I don't get is why suddenly it's "just a mere dragon".

Where was this disappointment YEARS ago when we all saw that Dragon's Head? And after so many volumes since then were we all not on the same page that "Dragon" have a very significant symbolic representation in this story?



You saw the Dragon's head.

You just didn't think it was a Dragon's head after seeing it was a Dragon's head but instead thought it wasn't a Dragon's head and was surprised that it was in fact a Dragon's head, and that you truly did saw a Dragon's head and now you're convinced it's only a Dragon's head because you saw just a Dragon's head.

=_=
When we first saw the dragon head against Auroleus, the true form of IB being a dragon was debatable as it was possible that it was simply a product of Auroleus' imagination gone wild. So no one really thought too much about it. Now that we know for a fact that it took the form of a dragon, one of the most abused and common creature in all things magical, it's hard to imagine how Kamachi can make it OP. As I stated before, it really downplays the mystique of IB.
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Old 2014-03-27, 08:20   Link #1899
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^
Refer to my previous posts. We already knew that the dragon strike was real. Volume 22 was the proof. Railgun Ch 69 was just a well placed reminder.

But in regards to downplaying the mystique, in practice we haven't learnt anything new. The mystique is still there becuase we don't know what the significance of the Dragon Strike is in relation to the world of Toaru Majutsu no Index. We don't know what any of this actually means.
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Old 2014-03-27, 08:34   Link #1900
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we don't even know the context of this dragon strike... or do we?
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