AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-03-19, 19:18   Link #1
Sugetsu
Kurumada's lost child
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
The Venus Project

Disclaimer: This subject is bound to get some people a little too emotional so please be aware of that, and lets try to keep this thread civil.

Following on the discussion started on another thread a few weeks ago (which got a little rough and had to be called off by a moderator) I would like to discuss a revolutionary idea started by Social engineer Jack Fresco that has now flourished into world wide movement aimed at improving the lives of all human beings on earth.

This is not a religious movement or a political movement. In fact this movement is trying to diminish these two and bring to light how counter productive they are to our current society. The movement does not demonize them though. It merely demonstrates how outdated politics and religion are.

The name of this movement is called the The Venus Project and its activist arm, which is focused on spreading the word and bringing awareness of what this project is about, is called The Zeitgeist Movement

There is a huge wealth of information regarding the project's ideology and if time is not on your side I would highly encourage you to watch Awakening by zeitgeist activist Douglas Mallette. It is 4 short videos of about 7 minutes each, and it should be enough to understand the basics of the project.



On march 13th the movement held world wide presentations around the world with the sole aim of attracting media attention and educate people in regards to the movement. The Huffington Post covered the 6 hour event in New York which was also streamed live. The name of the article is The Zeitgeist Movement: Envisioning A Sustainable Future. What is remarkable about this analysis is how well the journalist understands the movement, he is very effective at outlining the key aspects of the project while making it easy enough to understand for someone who has never heard of it before. The whole 6 hour event videos can be watched at http://www.ustream.tv/user/zday2010nyc/videos.

Zeitgeist Australia has informed many followers that the Venus project could potentially be awarded 200.000 euros courtesy of Ireland if its chapter in this country receives enough support, this would mean that Ireland could officially be the first country to experiment with the movements ideology. For more info Click HERE

Russia Today interviews Jack Fresco: (11 minute Video) http://rt.com/Politics/2010-02-15/tr...ople-not.html#

Fox News 7 reports on the Venus Project (4 Min video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNZDC...eature=related

On a side note... The movement has grown so much there is even a song called Come Tomorrow (Ballad of Jacque Fresco)‏ by Primitive soul (4th song down the play list)

Comments and criticism are highly welcomed!

Last edited by Sugetsu; 2010-03-20 at 15:48.
Sugetsu is offline  
Old 2010-03-19, 21:50   Link #2
Master_Yoma
Nekokota Festival
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Lost in the Fairy Forest
Well it seems like it would work but having all those building being but in factory that seems like crap. But it would be cool to live in the ocean but technology isnt there yet. This just seem like one crazy idea that wont work in the long run and cost a shit load of money just for one city as well taking more the 20 years to build.
__________________
Master_Yoma is online now  
Old 2010-03-20, 02:31   Link #3
Nightbat®
Deadpan Snarker
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Neverlands
Age: 37
-Pipe dreams
-Moneysinks
-just another bloody sekt with a different form of indoctrination

People are sheep and will follow any wolf that promises them green pastures

For the rest, I'll be staying out of this one

"the future of human society" LMAO
__________________
Nightbat® is offline  
Old 2010-03-20, 05:03   Link #4
Kamui4356
Aria Company
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
"Scarcity has been eliminated by the advent of technology"

Stopped listening there. That's the point it became completely clear this whole thing is the fevered dreams of madmen.
__________________
Kamui4356 is offline  
Old 2010-03-20, 05:35   Link #5
SaintessHeart
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 26
I can't believe you are still going on about something that doesn't fit within the framework of workable logic.

So, where are my replacement economic models?
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
SaintessHeart is offline  
Old 2010-03-20, 05:38   Link #6
cyth
ふひひ
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Age: 28
It would help the discussion to state WHY you think the organization or concept has no merit and not just be thoroughly dismissive about it.

That being said, the Venus Project is just a concept at this point. Some of the suggestions for building the first experimental city with resource-based principles (like concrete shacks for less than $100) have been made for the sake of building the city and ignoring all the aesthetics for making it functional based on their very own designs. It seems kind of pointless to me if they are going to build something that they will have to eventually rebuild, as is the problem with current infrastructure of cities around the world.

I love how the Zeitgeist movies can shatter the reality some people live with every day because that's what the Venus Project needs to have a proper launch platform - the evolution of the human mind. The Venus Project is, IMO, an icon for spreading word of the faults of the current system. However, I strongly believe that by teaching new generations how to approach the System in order to improve it, without any revolutionary actions in need of taking place, we don't need the Project to produce anything practical.

Our town has a Zeitgeist club and what I dislike about their approach is calls to "action" and their approach to the same manipulative propaganda the ideals behind Venus Project fight against. It's ridiculous!
__________________
cyth is offline  
Old 2010-03-20, 05:55   Link #7
MeoTwister5
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Where I can learn to be lonely.
Age: 30
@cyth

The reason as to why the project from an economical and sociological POV has been is still a pipe dream has been discussed to death in the other thread, and the proponents have really yet to even show and proof that the concept is anywhere near feasible in our current reality. It's just that people are tired of repeating the same arguments against it.
MeoTwister5 is online now  
Old 2010-03-20, 06:07   Link #8
SaintessHeart
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
It would help the discussion to state WHY you think the organization or concept has no merit and not just be thoroughly dismissive about it.
Read the Global Warming thread, page 47-49. You probably missed out on the argument. So it is pretty much :

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
......and the proponents have really yet to even show and proof that the concept is anywhere near feasible in our current reality. It's just that people are tired of repeating the same arguments against it.
Please inform me if he puts out a working economic model to replace our current one as I requested, through a PM. I promise a cookie.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
SaintessHeart is offline  
Old 2010-03-20, 06:12   Link #9
cyth
ふひひ
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Age: 28
But the whole point of the project, building cities and so forth, is to bypass the current reality. The proposed plans have so far not been adequately elaborated to be executed, IMO.

And no, I'm not reading the other thread.
__________________
cyth is offline  
Old 2010-03-20, 06:35   Link #10
SaintessHeart
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
But the whole point of the project, building cities and so forth, is to bypass the current reality. The proposed plans have so far not been adequately elaborated to be executed, IMO.
I think it is that they couldn't come up with a concrete and workable alternative to substitute our highly adaptive social system : the world pretty much inclines towards opportunities. In the past people were saying that Japan would become an economic superpower, then now China, etc. It is a basic paradigm shift caused by the availability of opportunities, mostly business, and otherwise too. The people with the ideas have hit a "logic barrier" and the thread starter thinks he could drive up and over it.

The Venus Project will be met with plenty of resistance if it is implemented because it takes away something most people lived for called personal freedom. We aren't a collective like the Zerg, everyone of us have different wants and views, so long as society doesn't impede on them too much, many are willing to put up with the numerous laws and bills that are passed.

Besides, the Venus Project just takes all the flaws and chunk them together to make it seem as though the world is badly run. The articles are so biased and had so many loopholes that a grandmother with glaucoma can drive through it : if any of you studied high school level economics, the first video already spouts enough misinformation about the fundamentals of fair exchange - supply and demand.

If it does get implemented, it would be no different from the Soviet Union.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
SaintessHeart is offline  
Old 2010-03-20, 07:39   Link #11
Roger Rambo
Sensei, aishite imasu
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
"We advocate artificial intelligience. Humans are irrational. Computers are rational. So computers should solve all our problems."

This just reeks so much of 1950's computer optimism it's hilarious.



We're not even sure how the mechanics of complex intelligience works. Much less how we would be able to make it work in an electronic fashion. I'm not gonna go "oh evil robots gonna kill us all", but it seems a bit preposterous to have such specific expectations out of a technology that we barely have a theoretical understanding of how it would work.

For all we know intelligience might not actually work as a completely rational and objective. Our modern day computers may only be "rational" as the Venus people put it because they don't possess anything we'd quantify as intelligience.
Roger Rambo is offline  
Old 2010-03-20, 09:45   Link #12
Jaden
Witch of Betrayal
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Age: 27
When you talk about the "state of the world" you can't really avoid generalisations, bias and being inspecific if you want to get any message across at all. I get what they're saying in Zeitgeist etc, basically the way we're living currently isn't future secure. It's not that the current western societies and goverments are bad, on the contrary they work better than anything that's been tried before - for the individual. But if you want humanity to thrive another thousand years or so, the only choice is turning to utter enviromentalism.

Of course, to implement those ideas the current goverments need to be overthrown to get that technocracy going (this is where those AIs are needed also). And then the people would have to be indoctrinated with some kind of mass mind-control because there's really no motivation for the average person to give up their careers, wealth etc.

Maybe it'll take some more genererations for that to be happen, at the least.
Jaden is offline  
Old 2010-03-20, 14:28   Link #13
Sugetsu
Kurumada's lost child
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
The hardest thing to do is to start, this is a universal law. The beginning of anything is like a looking at a very tall mountain that one is supposed to climb in order to get to your goal. The idea is often to so painful to contemplate that most people chose to give up on sight of whats to come.

Many believe that the project is completely "unrealistic" and there is no way for it to ever happen. They are imposing limitations on themselves. For some people "reality" is absolute and changing paradigms is not even conceivable in their minds. Someone people in this thread still believe that we don't have the AI knowledge required to give computers empirical decision making, when the process of programming itself is based on algorithms, and others are asking what are the economic models for that system, when the idea itself is to do away with money.

While the project has been very specific in mostly all areas, it hasn't been able to address effectively the hardest part, which is how to transition to that system. This is one of the reasons why the zeitgeist movement exist, to hear new ideas on how to enable a system of transition, as well as improvements to the way the project works.

Peter Joseph believes that transitioning has to be a slow and methodical process in which everyone gets acquainted with the project first, then through lack of faith in the current system future generations will have the mental attitude to listen the project's message and endure the painful transition.

On the other hand, Jack Fresco thinks that there isn't much time left before "the point of no return", in which the earth resources, population and debt will be beyond repair. He urges to wake people up as soon as possible and make them understand that there might be nothing left for future generations in order to create a self sustainable future.

All members of the movement believe that whatever the transitional method, it will be very painful. If you watched Russia today's interview, at the end Jack is asked: "You know people won't listen to you, so why do it?" He answers: "Because people have been conditioned to think that the US is the greatest country on earth".

I have many own idea on how to start a transition:

Teach people how to threat money as an object and not an objective in life; in this current system little children are being raised with the ideology that money is the end game, and the more you get, the happier you will be. This creates most of the problems we see in this society. The average person picks a career based on how much wealth it can give him. If money is portrayed in a different light throughout society, as a means to an end and not the other way around, then banks will stop charging interest and eliminating "fine print practices", people will start following their dreams instead of abandoning them thinking that they won't be able to make a living otherwise, theft and corruption would be greatly diminished.

Of course changing people's attitude towards money is no small feat, one would have to be a prominent politician, backed by the support of millions, in order to get the media and the educational establishment to change their ways. However, I believe that if such a thing were to take place people would soon begin to question why we need money at all when all that is needed in order to get the world moving is one's will. The limitations of the monetary system would be extremely obvious at this point. Under such circumstances the ideas of the Venus Project would be much easier to implement.
Sugetsu is offline  
Old 2010-03-20, 14:43   Link #14
GuidoHunter_Toki
Wiggle Your Big Toe
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Milwaukee
Age: 24
Set within the context of present and future problems, none of which seem to be thoughtfully addressed by this movement's figureheads, this project comes across as somewhat silly. Appears to me as being just another in a long history of utopian projects that won't go anywhere. Arcosanti comes to mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
Of course changing people's attitude towards money is no small feat, one would have to be a prominent politician, backed by the support of millions, in order to get the media and the educational establishment to change their ways. However, I believe that if such a thing were to take place people would soon begin to question why we need money at all when all that is needed in order to get the world moving is one's will.
While a society without currency is possible, a society that has no measure of wealth is absolutely impossible. Wealth is a natural arising factor when one must balance labor and resources to voluntarily better their own lives.
__________________

Last edited by GuidoHunter_Toki; 2010-03-20 at 15:03.
GuidoHunter_Toki is offline  
Old 2010-03-20, 15:12   Link #15
Kamui4356
Aria Company
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
When you talk about the "state of the world" you can't really avoid generalisations, bias and being inspecific if you want to get any message across at all. I get what they're saying in Zeitgeist etc, basically the way we're living currently isn't future secure. It's not that the current western societies and goverments are bad, on the contrary they work better than anything that's been tried before - for the individual. But if you want humanity to thrive another thousand years or so, the only choice is turning to utter enviromentalism.
No, no it isn't. While environmentalism would be a good thing to add on, it is not essential for humanity, and the handful of plant and animal species humans domesticated for various reasons, to survive. We're going to do just fine. Lots of people in third world nations are going to suffer from global warming, and some already are. However, it's not enough to threaten the survival of the human species. There are over 6.5 billion of us after all. The key to our long term survival doesn't involve Earth. In fact it involves leaving Earth Traveling into space, building orbital habitats, colonizing other planets, and eventually moving to the stars. If we do that humanity, or at least some offshoot of humanity, will survive and thrive for millions of years.

Quote:
Of course, to implement those ideas the current goverments need to be overthrown to get that technocracy going (this is where those AIs are needed also). And then the people would have to be indoctrinated with some kind of mass mind-control because there's really no motivation for the average person to give up their careers, wealth etc.
There's no polite way to put this. Hopefully you're not being serious, but if you are.. What the fuck are you smoking? Overthrow the governments? Mass mind control? Turning people into a new underclass in the service of an AI master race? What happens to people who resist this brainwashing and oppose you?

Now I'm all for giving AI equal rights once it's created, but giving it control over our society? Sorry, but if an AI wants to lead us, it's got to run for office just like a human would.

Quote:
Maybe it'll take some more genererations for that to be happen, at the least.
It will never happen. Not so long as there are sane people around
__________________
Kamui4356 is offline  
Old 2010-03-20, 15:31   Link #16
Sugetsu
Kurumada's lost child
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
Set within the context of present and future problems, none of which seem to be thoughtfully addressed by this movement's figureheads, this project comes across as somewhat silly. Appears to me as being just another in a long history of utopian projects that won't go anywhere. Arcosanti comes to mind.
Utopia is an impractical word, because it is mathematically and physically impossible to achieve. Utopia means that everything is perfect therefore everything is static. The only constant in the universe is motion.

There will be a lot of new problems and challenges when that system takes place. The problem is, we can't even begin to contemplate those problems because the system requires a change in parading. This means that there is no frame of reference for us to relate to the conditions set in the new system. The system is revolutionary due to its very foreign nature, it represents a quantum leap and therefore it is very hard if not impossible to predict. The only thing certain is that it is much better than any system humanity has seen thus far.

Quote:
While a society without currency is possible, a society that has no measure of wealth is absolutely impossible. Wealth is a natural arising factor when one must balance labor and resources to voluntarily better their own lives.
The need to measure wealth is the result of our imbalanced egos, the ego empowered brought out of balance by the monetary system. Without money or any means of a profit system the tendencies for competition and approval will be greatly diminished. Human nature is also an impractical word, it does not exist. There is only human conditioning.

I am sorry, that last part could be a little hard to understand. It is psychological concept and it might be a little confusing. I spent a great deal discussing the ego at length in the other thread. If you have any questions regards the involvement of ego let me know.

Last edited by Sugetsu; 2010-03-20 at 15:48.
Sugetsu is offline  
Old 2010-03-20, 15:51   Link #17
Jinto
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 34
As with all planned (meta) systems, there is the problem of a lack of showing how the transition of one system to the other system is going to be implemented/realised.
Also often things become idealized out of proportion. Very seldom such systems predict the behaviour/role of large amounts of humans in such systems. An idea born from few minds is often confined to the own limits of social perception, which limits the accuracy of predicting human behaviour.
Still, not trying to change something doesn't change a thing. The question is... do we achieve progress by the means of evolution or revolution (and when). Sometimes, revolution is the only way to solve a societal problem where society maneuvered into an evolutionary dead end. But who is going to predict the events where evolution is alterated by the means of revolution?
Jinto is offline  
Old 2010-03-20, 16:38   Link #18
Sugetsu
Kurumada's lost child
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
As with all planned (meta) systems, there is the problem of a lack of showing how the transition of one system to the other system is going to be implemented/realised.
Also often things become idealized out of proportion. Very seldom such systems predict the behaviour/role of large amounts of humans in such systems. An idea born from few minds is often confined to the own limits of social perception, which limits the accuracy of predicting human behaviour.
Still, not trying to change something doesn't change a thing. The question is... do we achieve progress by the means of evolution or revolution (and when). Sometimes, revolution is the only way to solve a societal problem where society maneuvered into an evolutionary dead end. But who is going to predict the events where evolution is alterated by the means of revolution?
Excellent point. You have read my mind regarding the overwhelming challenges that the Venus project has to undertake.

This is exactly why the zeitgeist movement was created. It wants to reach as many cultures and ideas as possible in order to make the message clear and strengthen its ideology through the feed back of many different perspectives world wide.

The movement does not advocate revolution, it would mean mass violence. It wants to raise awareness and then leave those who benefit the most from this system no choice but to let the transition commence.

Jack explains that another huge challenge is language itself. Our language is very primitive and it is subjected to interpretation, which in turn allows for misunderstanding to set in. Language should be an exact science, such as math, so that there is no room for error of interpretation. He says that in the future science should focus heavily into developing such an exact language if we are to get rid of many of the language-related problems the world faces.
Sugetsu is offline  
Old 2010-03-20, 16:48   Link #19
synaesthetic
blinded by blood
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Oakland, CA
Age: 30
Send a message via AIM to synaesthetic Send a message via Skype™ to synaesthetic
The entire thing is essentially putting the cart before the horse.

We don't even know if true artificial intelligence is even possible, and even if it were possible, that brings a whole new can of worms into the equation. At what point is a computer no longer an object and becomes a new form of life? Is it right to enslave thinking machines and saddle them with the responsibility of directing humanity?

Like the other guy above, I'm all for considering a sentient machine a form of life, but it's going to have to follow the same rules that everyone else does.

I also find it amusing that you're taking for granted the fact that such an AI would even want to direct humanity. If it's a true AI, it'll have its own wants and desires. Do we really want a real-life HAL controlling our fates?
__________________
synaesthetic is offline  
Old 2010-03-20, 16:59   Link #20
Sugetsu
Kurumada's lost child
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
AI would be in charge of mainly distributing resources world wide, in order to do that you don't need sentient AI, you need mathematical thinking. If humans were involved in the process of resource distribution then subjective thinking would be the norm. Only machines can distribute resources equally and fairly.

Humans along with machines, would be involved in development. Any new idea would be tested applying the scientific method and its positives points measured against its negative points. The idea is to free humans from repetitive and unskilled labor that can be easily automated, leaving humans to explore their full potential.
Sugetsu is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 22:49.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.