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Old 2010-03-20, 17:10   Link #21
NightbatŪ
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In other words, we have to give up any control over our own life for this to work
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Old 2010-03-20, 17:13   Link #22
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
AI would be in charge of mainly distributing resources world wide, in order to do that you don't need sentient AI, you need mathematical thinking. If humans were involved in the process of resource distribution then subjective thinking would be the norm. Only machines can distribute resources equally and fairly.

Humans along with machines, would be involved in development. Any new idea would be tested applying the scientific method and its positives points measured against its negative points. The idea is to free humans from repetitive and unskilled labor that can be easily automated, leaving humans to explore their full potential.
I know what the original intent is, but it doesn't take much gray matter to figure out that by having a computer control disbursement, it doesn't give us more freedom, it takes it away.

You're expecting humanity to voluntarily become mindless automatons. I fail to see how this is an improvement over what we have now.
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Old 2010-03-20, 17:14   Link #23
Sugetsu
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Originally Posted by NightbatŪ View Post
In other words, we have to give up any control over our own life for this to work


You haven't paid attention to any of the ideas because they don't match with your preconceptions.

It is completely the opposite of what you just said.

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post

You're expecting humanity to voluntarily become mindless automatons. I fail to see how this is an improvement over what we have now.
On the on contrary, most of the labor currently in this society is mechanical and simplistic requiring very little intellect. It is work that is insulting to our mental capabilities. Machines will take over those simplistic jobs, such as sweeping streets, packing items, serving food, bank telling... ETC. Humans are currently enslaved by monotonous labor that doesn't stimulate our minds and is counter productive to our intelligence. In the new system humans will have to time for socialization, family, the arts, science, recreation, exploration... and much more. That is higher degree of freedom. I fail to see how humans would be turned into automatic machines.
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Old 2010-03-20, 17:15   Link #24
GuidoHunter_Toki
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Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
The need to measure wealth is the result of our imbalanced egos, the ego empowered brought out of balance by the monetary system. Without money or any means of a profit system the tendencies for competition and approval will be greatly diminished. Human nature is also an impractical word, it does not exist. There is only human conditioning.
Human Nature does not exist? Thats a bold statement. I find that tantamount to saying there are no humans.

My thoughts are that Human Nature can be defined by a set of qualities all humans have.

-All humans are innately bipedal.
-All humans have a brain.
-All humans have a certain innate intellectual ability and potential.
-All humans are able to process emotion.
-All humans unconsciously gravitate towards pleasure and shun pain.


The Venus Project needs to changee the mindset of the people of the world, which has never been plausible in my opinon. There will always be rebels, corruption, and so forth. People will always have different ambitions that drive them.

I just don't follow the logic of this plan.

If one desires something and wants it to happen, investment has to be made. When you invest in one thing it is risky to invest in another and this means choices must be made. Right now, people make choices for themselves with their money. There are plenty of choices out there for individuals that wish to improve the future. People don't flock to those choices(despite knowing they exist) in anywhere near the numbers that are continuing to consume in the same old fashion.

Someone needs to make the decisions for the Venus Project, and someone must decide how investments be made, regardless of the existence of currency. Money represents work done. Eliminate money and people will still need to decide where the result of their work and their effort goes. What if they do not wish to live in the vision that is the Venus Project? Dreams can turn into nightmares easily. Those who dream, if in a position of authority, can turn from suggestion to force. Ideals can seemingly become so important that individuals won't be allowed to stand in the way of what "must be done".

It never works to simply say things will get better and should be different than they are now. There must be specific plans towards getting from point A to point B. Any democratic body is evidence of how difficult it is to move forward plans in the face of many competing interests. At each point of danger someone must decide on what to do. Will it be a democracy? How will you respond to people who like things as they are now, who don't want to eliminate money, even if things may be imperfect? How about those making lots of money? Do they get a say or is their wealth taken away to be used for better purposes. Who decides?

It's good to dream, but remember that others have dreams as well and all do not share the same dream. Capitalism does not promise success, but it offers the possibility of it. Money is wonderful in that it represents anything one could want. It is value that can be spent in a wealth of ways and it is yours to spend without anyone ordering you how to use it or for what purpose.
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Old 2010-03-20, 17:18   Link #25
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
I don't agree with your argument, so I'm going to accuse you of misunderstanding instead of actually responding with a counterpoint.
Fixed that for you.

Also I agree with everything Toki just said.
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Old 2010-03-20, 17:28   Link #26
Sugetsu
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Fixed that for you.

Also I agree with everything Toki just said.
You quoted me too early, read the same post again, you ended up making the same point he made, the problem is he has been following the subject since weeks ago in the other thread, and his comments simply dismissed the answers, your questions have been answered before, but since I know you did not not participate in the other thread (or at least I don't remember you did) I did answer your question.
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Old 2010-03-20, 17:34   Link #27
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
On the on contrary, most of the labor currently in this society is mechanical and simplistic requiring very little intellect. It is work that is insulting to our mental capabilities. Machines will take over those simplistic jobs, such as sweeping streets, packing items, serving food, bank telling... ETC. Humans are currently enslaved by monotonous labor that doesn't stimulate our minds and is counter productive to our intelligence. In the new system humans will have to time for socialization, family, the arts, science, recreation, exploration... and much more. That is higher degree of freedom. I fail to see how humans would be turned into automatic machines.
It's not freedom if a computer is telling you what to do and when to do it.

Not to mention that hey, really, not everyone's destined to be a rocket scientist or a nuclear physicist.

Automate all the menial labor... what happens to the people who had those jobs? Do they just do nothing? Sit on their asses and get fat in front of the TV all day? How are they going to keep existing without working? Oh right, money's gone now, but when everyone's provided for in your Communist fantasy world, how do you drive people?

All biological life is inherently lazy. If it doesn't have to do something, doesn't have to expend energy, it won't!

So does the Venus project take into account that after a few generations, humanity will be a bunch of fat, lazy shut-ins that never leave their homes, all their wants and desires provided by the master computer, living in complete harmony, led by the nose from cradle to grave?

I think I've heard this plot before... *stares sidelong at her copy of Sora wo Kakeru Shoujo...*
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Old 2010-03-20, 17:37   Link #28
NightbatŪ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
On the on contrary, most of the labor currently in this society is mechanical and simplistic requiring very little intellect. It is work that is insulting to our mental capabilities. Machines will take over those simplistic jobs, such as sweeping streets, packing items, serving food, bank telling... ETC. Humans are currently enslaved by monotonous labor that doesn't stimulate our minds and is counter productive to our intelligence. In the new system humans will have to time for socialization, family, the arts, science, recreation, exploration... and much more. That is higher degree of freedom. I fail to see how humans would be turned into automatic machines.

Newsflash:
Not everybody is a friggin genius

in other words: some people are not fit for anything BUT monotous work


You and your ideals already fail to see that no human is the same

When are you gonna factor in the human factor?
Before or after this all has been implemented by mathmaticians, staticians, psychologists - everyone BUT the average john-doe that is gonna be forced to fullfill this crazy idea?

for instance. I can't design spaceships, instruments, I can hardly bloody calculate a circle without a calculator
but woops, my job as shitshoveller just got taken by a robot
(seems I can't type to save my life either)

I just became absolutely bloody useless in this great step forward

What are you gonna do with people unfit for designing a better future?

to put it blunt: those too Stupid to be a valuable asset for this grand scheme?

Deport them to Australia?
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Old 2010-03-20, 17:38   Link #29
Jaden
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Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
No, no it isn't. While environmentalism would be a good thing to add on, it is not essential for humanity, and the handful of plant and animal species humans domesticated for various reasons, to survive. We're going to do just fine. Lots of people in third world nations are going to suffer from global warming, and some already are. However, it's not enough to threaten the survival of the human species. There are over 6.5 billion of us after all. The key to our long term survival doesn't involve Earth. In fact it involves leaving Earth Traveling into space, building orbital habitats, colonizing other planets, and eventually moving to the stars. If we do that humanity, or at least some offshoot of humanity, will survive and thrive for millions of years.
I'm not talking about survival, I'm talking about thriving. It's not hard for a couple cavemen to survive even after terrible disasters and the exhaustion of all natural resources, but I would like a little more from our civilization than that.

Quote:
There's no polite way to put this. Hopefully you're not being serious, but if you are.. What the fuck are you smoking? Overthrow the governments? Mass mind control? Turning people into a new underclass in the service of an AI master race? What happens to people who resist this brainwashing and oppose you?
Yeah I wasn't seriously suggesting such things to be done (and how would one pull it off anyway?), but to bring about the transition to venus project ideal world in our lifetimes, that kind of measures would have to be used.
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Old 2010-03-20, 17:38   Link #30
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
All biological life is inherently lazy. If it doesn't have to do something, doesn't have to expend energy, it won't!

So does the Venus project take into account that after a few generations, humanity will be a bunch of fat, lazy shut-ins that never leave their homes, all their wants and desires provided by the master computer, living in complete harmony, led by the nose from cradle to grave?
I'd just like to point out that we're already seeing this trend in post industrial societies. Hikikomori, NEETs, and the like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
I'm not talking about survival, I'm talking about thriving.
6.5+ billion people and growing isn't thriving?



Quote:
Yeah I wasn't seriously suggesting such things to be done, but to bring about the transition to venus project ideal world in our lifetimes, that kind of measures would have to be used.
It's not an ideal world, it's a dystopian world. All people will be equal, all will conform to the greater good. Everyone shall live in peace and harmony. And if not, then what? It's like something out of Brave New World. Thanks but no thanks.
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Old 2010-03-20, 17:48   Link #31
Sugetsu
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Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
Human Nature does not exist? Thats a bold statement. I find that tantamount to saying there are no humans.

My thoughts are that Human Nature can be defined by a set of qualities all humans have.

-All humans are innately bipedal.
-All humans have a brain.
-All humans have a certain innate intellectual ability and potential.
-All humans are able to process emotion.
-All humans unconsciously gravitate towards pleasure and shun pain.
Those are human characteristics, although the last two points are not shared by all humans, there are people with certain mental "disorders". Human are not inherently greedy, good, bad, or religious. If there were any hard wiring of our behavior we would still be living in caves.


Quote:
The Venus Project needs to changee the mindset of the people of the world, which has never been plausible in my opinon. There will always be rebels, corruption, and so forth. People will always have different ambitions that drive them.

I just don't follow the logic of this plan.

It's good to dream, but remember that others have dreams as well and all do not share the same dream. Capitalism does not promise success, but it offers the possibility of it. Money is wonderful in that it represents anything one could want. It is value that can be spent in a wealth of ways and it is yours to spend without anyone ordering you how to use it or for what purpose.
You seem to underestimate the huge impact the system has over humanity. As stated in the video awakening, the profit system has been in place for over 7000 years of recorded history.
Much of the corruption, greed, wars and so on have been a consequence of the system. It is the same with the education system that has been in place for over thousands of years. People are still going to school to learn things that have very little relevance with how we relate to one another, it is all exact data that is meant to be memorized in order to perpetuate the system, but there isn't much training that teaches people how to think for themselves.

Changing such deep embedded roots is no small feat. They have been there for so long that people think that they are natural. People are born in the system and have very little if any chance to observe the underlying causes of their problems because the system is all they know.
(THANK GOD FOR THE INTERNET!) :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
It's not freedom if a computer is telling you what to do and when to do it.
Computers are not telling you how to live your life, they only do automated processes, such as manufacturing or resource distribution. You can still go get naked and find other naked people and dance until 6 am if that's what you want to do with your life.

Quote:
Not to mention that hey, really, not everyone's destined to be a rocket scientist or a nuclear physicist.
If they are not rocket scientist, they might like arts, or sports, or journalism, or tend to sick and injured animals... or simply spend time traveling the world and getting to know different people. Others will want to dedicate to raise their children, which is something essential missing in our society.

Quote:
Automate all the menial labor... what happens to the people who had those jobs? Do they just do nothing? Sit on their asses and get fat in front of the TV all day? How are they going to keep existing without working? Oh right, money's gone now, but when everyone's provided for in your Communist fantasy world, how do you drive people?
Those poor people were born in impoverished areas under the current system and never had a choice in the first place. You seriously underestimate the human potential. Have you ever had a very poor friend? Those people have potential too you know, the problem is they have no choice.


Quote:
All biological life is inherently lazy. If it doesn't have to do something, doesn't have to expend energy, it won't!


So does the Venus project take into account that after a few generations, humanity will be a bunch of fat, lazy shut-ins that never leave their homes, all their wants and desires provided by the master computer, living in complete harmony, led by the nose from cradle to grave?

I think I've heard this plot before... *stares sidelong at her copy of Sora wo Kakeru Shoujo...*
Yeah I see what you mean. All human beings just want to sit on their asses and not think. Just enjoy the excesses of life, get drunk, drugged, have lots of sex and watch a nice movie.

Have you ever considered the possibility that all those actions are just an escape mechanism? And if they are escape mechanisms what are they escaping from?

Last edited by Sugetsu; 2010-03-20 at 18:13.
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Old 2010-03-20, 17:51   Link #32
Jaden
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6.5+ billion people and growing isn't thriving?
Growing now, but we aren't thinking ahead very much. I'm talking about thriving for another thousand years. This can be achieved with enviromentalism, not by being swept onward with transient goals like economic growth. But don't take these statements out of context, they were just something to support the opinion I stated in my first post. They're not very meaningful by themselves.
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Old 2010-03-20, 17:53   Link #33
felix
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The movement has a interesting analysis of our current system's problems but really nothing in the form of a realistic applicable solution. I'm a little concerned about they're scare tactics as well. Some of the accusations are so silly. However, the cause and effect they mention I will agree with.

You know my main problem with all this is, besides the analysis, I've heard this all before under the name of communism since really "taking away wealth, money, making the world fair for everyone (etc)" is pretty much what communism was all about (initialy). Of course I don't expect the people who made that video to realize that. I'm sure they have this warped view where the communism movement (spell it "communityism" if its easier to understand) was brought by "satan" or "greedy leaders" or something; not a movement proposing and complaining at the time exactly like they are doing now.
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Old 2010-03-20, 17:59   Link #34
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
Growing now, but we aren't thinking ahead very much. I'm talking about thriving for another thousand years. This can be achieved with enviromentalism, not by being swept onward with transient goals like economic growth. But don't take these statements out of context, they were just something to support the opinion I stated in my first post. They're not very meaningful by themselves.
And how exactly can it be achieved by environmentalism? How is that going to allow future human expansion? What mechanisms would cause it?
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Old 2010-03-20, 18:09   Link #35
GuidoHunter_Toki
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Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
You seem to underestimate the huge impact the system has over humanity. As stated in the video awakening, the profit system has been in place for over 7000 years of recorded history.
Much of the corruption, greed, wars and so on have been a consequence of the system.
It is always the people and not the system that is the cause for corruption. There has never been a perfect working system, because there has and will always be people that strive for more or people who have different desires (whether they be good or bad by society's standards).

The problem with our current system, as with any other, is not one of money. The men behind the curtains who don't need more money are motivated by power. A resource based system will not eliminate that desire, if anything it enhances the power-seeking elite by making it difficult for common folk to protect themselves with savings. In our current system, power is gained by the manipulation of currency. It's possible to take away currency and the power accompanied with it yet maintain an honest money free market capitalist system. The people in control have had everything in abundance for generations, what makes you think this project will be different with the masses?

The Venus Project requires that all interests be the same, all nations united. This is flawed in that nations best function when they decide their own interests. That is, nations naturally arose because the people that exist there have a common way to survive.

Look I respectifully must say I hate the idea of the Venus Project. Every day I see behavior on the street I don't approve of, like littering. But behind all this is freedom. Humanity may go down in flames. Let it do so if the alternative is to compel each person to do the right thing.

To put it another way, I hate litter but I fully appreciate that littering is an aspect of freedom, even as it is left to me, in my freedom, to pick it up.
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Old 2010-03-20, 18:19   Link #36
Lio
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Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
Utopia is an impractical word, because it is mathematically and physically impossible to achieve. Utopia means that everything is perfect therefore everything is static. The only constant in the universe is motion.
The problem is that just the phrase "The future of human society: The Venus Project" just speaks of utopia. There's no other way to interpret it for most people. So the guys behind the project are already starting on the wrong foot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
The need to measure wealth is the result of our imbalanced egos, the ego empowered brought out of balance by the monetary system. Without money or any means of a profit system the tendencies for competition and approval will be greatly diminished. Human nature is also an impractical word, it does not exist. There is only human conditioning.
There's two major problems with this...

First, convincing people that people will be more healthy or more happy if they drop their egos just doesn't work. It's something to be experienced, not put into logical argument. People hearing that argument won't necessarily drop their egos, but develop another ego identity that says "I am against ego," but the intrinsic "I" still exists, so it's actually counterproductive. I read your post on ego in the other thread, so I think you should know how common that is. And suppose people don't believe in the ego, the argument will move into the realms of what's human nature or what's not human nature, and they'll receive alot of resistance, like you are in this thread.


Second, the socioeconomic elites who own the country don't want that.

I'm talking about the people with all the money, all the power, who run everything important in the country - the upper 1% who want more for themselves and less for everybody else. They will never drop their egos, because they own you. Why would you drop your ego when you already have everything in the world? The world is simply a game for them - how much more money can we drain from the masses while we sit here in our estates and enjoy the greatest luxuries and pleasures of life while everybody else suffers?

Those are the people who run the country. They have the government in their back pockets, the supreme courts in their back pockets.

If I was one of them and I saw this "Venus Project" thing, I'd laugh at another futile attempt by the lower class to change the order.


The way to bring about something as subtle and delicate as a shift in people's awareness of their egos is to do it under the radar without trying to make it a big deal, so that when it does happen across the world, we can then reveal what has been going on, without any resistance or opposition. Eckhart Tolle did a fantastic job with Power of Now and A New Earth presenting the ego in the best way anyone has ever done.

But The Venus Project? They messed up from square one.

Last edited by Lio; 2010-03-20 at 18:32.
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Old 2010-03-20, 18:25   Link #37
synaesthetic
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Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
It's not an ideal world, it's a dystopian world. All people will be equal, all will conform to the greater good. Everyone shall live in peace and harmony. And if not, then what?
All will be equal. All will conform to the "greater good." Everyone shall live in peace and harmony.

And if you're not happy with this, then we'll kill you.

Sounds pretty Orwellian.
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Old 2010-03-20, 18:29   Link #38
GuidoHunter_Toki
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Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
Those are human characteristics, although the last two points are not shared by all humans, there are people with certain mental "disorders". Human are not inherently greedy, good, bad, or religious. If there were any hard wiring of our behavior we would still be living in caves.
A mental disorder is an irregularty is it not. Also what would you consider a true mental disorder that would counteract the argument. Name me any disorders that actually eliminate the ability to feel emotion or do something simply for the pleasure of it. Even pyschopaths killing, are they not killing for the pleasure of it. They think what they are doing is morally right and they feel emotions when they do it.

Now greed I believe can be associated to human nature. Human beings are able to experience pleasure and pain, and for the most part, we pursue activities that give pleasure or lead us to anticipate pleasure, and we avoid activities that give pain or fear of pain.

Making money can become associated with pleasure just as surely as a bell can make a dog salivate, once the dog has learned that the bell means dinner. For the big capitalists, greed (want for more wealth than is needed) is what made them capitalists in the first place. If that did not drive them, then they would not have succeeded as capitalists, or they might pursue some more useful occupation.

Every human being has a lust for something to give them pleasure, anything from holding hands with someone you like, taking a walk outside, living for a higher purpose (religion) or taking another humans life through conflict (war).

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Sounds pretty Orwellian.
Honestly the Venus Project sounds to me like the movie/book 1984 on steroids.
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Old 2010-03-20, 18:33   Link #39
Sugetsu
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Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
It is always the people and not the system that is the cause for corruption. There has never been a perfect working system, because there has and will always be people that strive for more or people who have different desires (whether they be good or bad by society's standards).

The problem with our current system, as with any other, is not one of money. The men behind the curtains who don't need more money are motivated by power. A resource based system will not eliminate that desire, if anything it enhances the power-seeking elite by making it difficult for common folk to protect themselves with savings. In our current system, power is gained by the manipulation of currency. It's possible to take away currency and the power accompanied with it yet maintain an honest money free market capitalist system. The people in control have had everything in abundance for generations, what makes you think this project will be different with the masses?
I beg to differ. It has been scientifically and spiritually proven that the environment in which a living creature is born dictates its attributes as well as its potential.

Take a look a child that is born to a mother and a father that are members of the KKK. What is the logical outcome? Greed, selfishness, the need for praise and approval are no more natural than your ever day show business TV.

Quote:
The Venus Project requires that all interests be the same, all nations united. This is flawed in that nations best function when they decide their own interests. That is, nations naturally arose because the people that exist there have a common way to survive.

Look I respectifully must say I hate the idea of the Venus Project. Every day I see behavior on the street I don't approve of, like littering. But behind all this is freedom. Humanity may go down in flames. Let it do so if the alternative is to compel each person to do the right thing.

To put it another way, I hate litter but I fully appreciate that littering is an aspect of freedom, even as it is left to me, in my freedom, to pick it up.
You seem to associate the idea of common vision with lack of freedom. How so? Is common sense lack of freedom? or is it just a cultural aspect of the society in which you are brought up?

In the system that the Venus project proposes you will have much higher degree of freedom.

There won't any more advertising or propaganda flooding your senses the minute you do go outside. You mind won't be subjected to the subtle mind control of the mass media.

You won't have "elected officials" making decisions for you and corporations enslaving humans for cheap labor.

Your freedom won't restricted by how much money you have in the bank, you will be able to travel, live and do anything you want. In this society you are as free as your purchasing power is, without money you are nothing, you can't have "friends" or find "love".
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Old 2010-03-20, 18:35   Link #40
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
All will be equal. All will conform to the "greater good." Everyone shall live in peace and harmony.

And if you're not happy with this, then we'll kill you.

Sounds pretty Orwellian.
Exactly. The most horrible, brutal dictators in human history thought they were making their country better. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, none of them killed people because they were evil. No, the millions they put to death died because there leader had a vision of the ideal society and that vision was so great it needed to be achieved no matter what the cost was to the people. No matter how many people died, the ends justified the means in their eyes. I don't see this idea turning out any differently.

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Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
spiritually proven
I generally like my posts outside of 4chan to contain more substance, but honestly, for a comment like that I can't think of a better response than this:

http://i44.tinypic.com/20i8ilc.jpg
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