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Old 2010-03-21, 20:11   Link #61
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
Utopia? I thought we were past that argument already. Scroll up on page 3 and you will find a clear answer by the director of the Venus project.
Read the posts of the person I quoted. Not to mention you are talking about a utopian fantasy here. Just because the guy wants to call it something else doesn't change that. I'm not the one who mentioned it though.



Quote:
Greed is not the accurate term. We all have egos, which are defense mechanisms to protect us from external forces. The ego is reinforced in tough environments; for example in areas where it is the law of every man for himself. The ego is much weaker in children for example, which is why children are so easy to teach, learn things and absorb things from the environment at a much higher rate than a normal adult.
Ego doesn't work that way. It's a sense of self. A realization that one is a separate being. Besides, read the post I was responding to.


Quote:
Yes chemical imbalances help to alter behavior. It is the same with some genes that create certain propensities to certain behavior until triggered. However, the environment in which a person lives dictates whether the person will have access to such substances or conditions that trigger such behavior. Chemical and genetic related behavior are a small part of our behavioral system which largely affected by environmental stimuli. Sigmund Freud's nephew, Edward Bernays sought to take advantage of such human characteristics. If you watch the century of the self documentary that I posted just a few post ago in page 3 you will find more in-depth info.
Except biology has a much larger impact on our behavior than most people want to believe. Drugs can drastically alter a person's behavior by altering the chemical balance. A brain injury can completely change someone's personality. Look at identical twins that are separated at birth. They usually turn out very similar, even when raised in very different environments.

Quote:
Jiddu Krishnamurty also explained how there is only human conditioning and how it defines who we are and our level of potential. He debates this with 3 prominent scientist in the 1980's. Here is the video:



Bruce Lipton is working on new area of behavioral genetics, in which he explains how genes themselves are altered by the environment, and how they don't really dictate one's behavior:
So 30 year old science and a nutter? This is your evidence? Toki already explained why the guy is a nutter, and since he apparently read the guy's book, I'll differ to his judgment since that video seems to confirm it. From what he's saying the guy's views on science seem to more relate to the lolscience! in Index and Railgun than any real science. Remember, just because someone is a PhD doesn't mean they know what they're talking about.
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Old 2010-03-21, 22:16   Link #62
NightbatŪ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
Everyone, I highly encourage you to watch the videos linked in this post, some of them are long, but they are highly informative, they talk about human behavior. I hope that after you watch them we come to some sort of agreement so that we can move the discussion forward.



It has not, the U.S.S.R has no relation to the Venus Project. Please watch this very brief video:



This is is something you could have easily research on your own. Why ask such an obvious question? If the answer in the video doesn't satisfy you, there are a hundred more of those videos, audio files and texts for you to read.

You can't draw conclusions on how the project will function based on an argument such as communism.
So it won't be a classless society with equal share in riches working towards the same goal?
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Old 2010-03-22, 04:31   Link #63
Jaden
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This is actually an interesting issue: What if we were far in the future, money having been abolished and we'd be living in some eco-dome in a completely enviromentalist state and I, for my own interests and those of other otaku, wanted to manufacture, say, figurines? How would I get permission to do so from our AI overlords when it would clearly go over my projected resource expendure and clearly under the recommended efficiency? From the outside view it's basically creating junk, but for us they'd be goods that last for a lifetime.

After all even when the basic needs of people are met, there'll still be lots of resources left to do stuff. How to decide whose projects will be realized and which ones will be shelved? Even without money this is something that would create inequity, isn't it? If the Venus Project is thought out that well, It'd be nice to see solutions to cases like this.
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Old 2010-03-22, 07:47   Link #64
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
If the Venus Project is thought out that well, It'd be nice to see solutions to cases like this.
Frankly like most utopia projects I think this is just made to make money, not actually realize a goal. So I would not treat it too seriously.
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Old 2010-03-22, 08:15   Link #65
cyth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
This is actually an interesting issue: What if we were far in the future, money having been abolished and we'd be living in some eco-dome in a completely enviromentalist state and I, for my own interests and those of other otaku, wanted to manufacture, say, figurines? How would I get permission to do so from our AI overlords when it would clearly go over my projected resource expendure and clearly under the recommended efficiency? From the outside view it's basically creating junk, but for us they'd be goods that last for a lifetime.

After all even when the basic needs of people are met, there'll still be lots of resources left to do stuff. How to decide whose projects will be realized and which ones will be shelved? Even without money this is something that would create inequity, isn't it? If the Venus Project is thought out that well, It'd be nice to see solutions to cases like this.
Lots of people don't get that the Venus Project is all about creative thinking, employing imagination and logic to set goals for projects that may not have the available science yet to back them all up. That's why you have people in this thread calling the whole deal one huge pipedream. And it is, but the Project doesn't consider that a failure in their use of logic, they believe that working out the science is just a matter of time. That being said, creativity in such a system will be encouraged, but you're wrong to predispose that humans in such an environment would have some form of OCD for collecting things as most otaku do in our times. The Venus Project proposes the usage of nanotechnology for recycling material. So if you decide to make a figurine, you will be less inclined to keep it standing somewhere, thus creating junk. You will likely be able to sculpt it, a computer will memorize its structure, nanomachines will after the resources it's built from are needed decompose it, but when those resources will become available again, you will be able to reconstruct it.

The Venus Project is all about showing what kind of future is possible when some form of a resource-based economy is employed. It's about dreaming big, encouraging creativity, while science is only a tool to be bettered for the sake of realization.
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Old 2010-03-22, 08:43   Link #66
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by cyth View Post
Lots of people don't get that the Venus Project is all about creative thinking, employing imagination and logic to set goals for projects that may not have the available science yet to back them all up. That's why you have people in this thread calling the whole deal one huge pipedream. And it is, but the Project doesn't consider that a failure in their use of logic, they believe that working out the science is just a matter of time. That being said, creativity in such a system will be encouraged, but you're wrong to predispose that humans in such an environment would have some form of OCD for collecting things as most otaku do in our times. The Venus Project proposes the usage of nanotechnology for recycling material. So if you decide to make a figurine, you will be less inclined to keep it standing somewhere, thus creating junk. You will likely be able to sculpt it, a computer will memorize its structure, nanomachines will after the resources it's built from are needed decompose it, but when those resources will become available again, you will be able to reconstruct it.

The Venus Project is all about showing what kind of future is possible when some form of a resource-based economy is employed. It's about dreaming big, encouraging creativity, while science is only a tool to be bettered for the sake of realization.
It's not based on science or logic at all. It's based on Star Trek. Someone watched Star Trek: TNG, said "wow, everyone is working together not for profit but the good of humanity. And look they have little replicator thingys that can make anything they want! So cool!" and thought "wouldn't it be neat if real life was like this." However, it can't be. Even in Star Trek it only works because of shadowy agencies like section 31 smoothing out the wrinkles behind everyone's backs.

Also, you're proposing humans are going to stop being human. Collecting things isn't some modern fad. Throughout all of human civilization people collected things. Even before we had cities or agriculture, we collected things. We have human remains that were found with a necklace made of teeth of different animals, or sea shells, or other trinkets. Further, you're treating nanotechnology like it's magic and can do anything. It can't.

tl;dr: Life isn't Star Trek.
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Old 2010-03-22, 08:54   Link #67
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Originally Posted by cyth View Post
That being said, creativity in such a system will be encouraged, but you're wrong to predispose that humans in such an environment would have some form of OCD for collecting things as most otaku do in our times.
Wouldn't that impede creativity to an extent. If people don't want things like figurines then why would people make them?
Wouldn't that end up impeding the creation of new figurines and thus hurt this specific creative outlet?
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Old 2010-03-22, 10:21   Link #68
Jaden
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Hmm. Until a universal constructor is invented I will have to withdraw my allegiance to any electronic goverment, on the basis that the lovely subculture we registered here to discuss could become endangered. XD
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Old 2010-03-22, 10:52   Link #69
cyth
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Originally Posted by Ash Falls Town View Post
Wouldn't that impede creativity to an extent. If people don't want things like figurines then why would people make them?
Wouldn't that end up impeding the creation of new figurines and thus hurt this specific creative outlet?
Who's to say people will be interested in figurines in such a time and place anyway? But to try and tackle the question, it will boil down to curiosity, experimenation with sculpting different shapes, trying to make an impression on other people, build a gift. The phrase "this is something I made for you" might have a different meaning in such an environment. The point is to take yourself out of context of the current material, scientific, sociopsychological conditions and think outside the box, something folks like Kamui4356 are obviously incapable of doing.
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Old 2010-03-22, 11:26   Link #70
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Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
To me Mr. Lipton is stretching the conclusions too far beyond the data. Lipton's two papers of 1991 and 1992 show that immortalized endothelial cells take on different phenotypes in the culture dish when grown in different conditions. Hardly surprising now, but from this he gets an epiphany that DNA does not control every characteristic manifested by a life form. Would anyone say otherwise nowadays? That's the problem with many of his claims (particularly in his book); he keeps claiming to have arrived at heretical paradigm-shifting ideas that in the end are either trivial (the membrane is the brain of the cell), yet scientifically unverifiable but unoriginal retreads of New Age standards (there is a vibrational energy that communicates between life forms), or fairly undisputable truisms (how you think can affect your physiology). In his book this is all presented in the context of telling his story of transition from academic scientist to proselytizer of the "New Biology" in a traveling road show. First of all, to still call yourself a cellular biologist 13 years after your last paper was published takes some chutzpah in my book. Secondly, the book was more the story of a man with a mess of a life finding peace and happiness outside of the rat race. His whole "DNA is not paramount" schtick is knocking down a straw man. To refer to "scientists" as genetic determinists and social Darwinists, believing that genes direct everything with no regard to the environment, is quite simplistic. Overall, I feel a little somewhat down criticizing an enthusiastic and energetic purveyor of quite positive and optimistic ideas about the human condition. But I've heard or read all of these ideas elsewhere, much better presented, but still unconvincing.
He is not the only scientist out there that believes that genes are altered constantly based on the environment. The first time I heard about this subject was in a book (wish I remembered the name...) in which studies where being done on Jewish survivors of world war II. The studies showed that the DND had mutated, in some case dramatically, in the offspring of those Jews in order to adapt to the environment that their parents lived in. Do I remember what changed? no, but it was some sort of physical and mental propensities. My fascination with the issue was what ultimately brought me to Mr Lipton. You can google this subject up. There is plenty of info. Of course non of it i s accepted by main stream science, and in some cases it is labeled as pseudoscience.

Science itself can become a very close minded establishment, specially main stream science, to the point where it becomes a truly religious establishment. Ironically, the culprit is the firm belief in the scientific method.

To many scientists, you must be able to observe, measure and replicate any subject in order to be accepted as real. Since main stream science must "see to believe" they are restricting themselves in areas of existence where the scientific method does not directly apply. The fixation on this method limits the scope of its vision, and ultimately cripples science itself.

People such as Georg Cantor, Rupert Sheldrake, Dr Jim Tucker, Mr Lipton, among hundreds of others have been disregarded as mere charlatans.

Telepathy, Ghosts, reincarnation, and other subjects are completely ignored by main stream science. The overwhelming number of reports and accounts do not mean a thing that religious establishment, at least main stream media is covering those subjects for the sake of profit.

Don't get me wrong, I love science and I believe that it is indispensable in this day and age. What saddens me is that much of the scientific establishment is highly egocentric.

Sigh... ego ego...


@Kamui and Nightbat After many posts and answers you guys seem to simply dismiss all the information that has been presented. Nearly all of your questions have been answered by me tens of times, and by the developers of the project, hundreds, if not thousands of times, due to the fact that they are among the very first things asked by anyone new to the idea. I could link a video response for nearly every questions you have have thrown at me, but that would be too cheap.

However, what I don't seem to get from you guys is why you don't bother to dig a little bit into the idea first so that we are all on the same page?

Spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
Hmm. Until a universal constructor is invented I will have to withdraw my allegiance to any electronic goverment, on the basis that the lovely subculture we registered here to discuss could become endangered. XD
Indeed, most of it should disappear. TV shows, video games, fast food among thousands of other things should banish, because they are products of the profit system.
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Old 2010-03-22, 11:35   Link #71
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Seems that this discussion is still going around in circles.

If anyone wants to change the world, a good place to start would be the economy. if you take a look at China now, the reason why it is able to wrest a superpower control from US is because they control quite a portion in the world economy, particularly the production sector. And this project talks so much cock about the flaws of capitalistic economics without putting forward any alternative.

And Sugetsu, please stop being an ass by ignoring my question. Where is the alternative economic model?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
.....Further, you're treating nanotechnology like it's magic and can do anything. It can't.
QUIZ - And the most basic reason is an EXTREMELY simple scientific principle, mostly quoted in basic Physics. Name the principle (quoted as "The Principle of ......).

Seriously, if you have problems naming it yet still support that the Venus Project works, it is quite obvious that you are just supporting it for the sake of supporting it. You can't just create anything out of thin air using a simple machine. Neither can you build a complex machine and expect it to create anything : programming isn't that easy as you think, especially when you are talk about construction of stuff at the micromolecular level. If you don't drown in the variables involved, you would probably sink under it.

On a small note, there can be a thousand explanations to a single phenomena. As much as humans like to find order within chaos, there is ABSOLUTELY NO LOGIC TO HUMAN BEHAVIOUR. And since everything is created by humans, and their creations are driven by their behaviours, how can we consolidate a noospheric collective to run a place by basing it on a "hive mindset"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
Why on earth do you keep bringing the concept of Utopia to this discussion?

Are you that close minded that you do not dare to think outside of the box?
Then why do you bring up the idea of this project in the first place when you deny that it IS a concept of utopia?

Quote:
Indeed, most of it should disappear. TV shows, video games, fast food among thousands of other things should banish, because they are products of the profit system.
1. Then what do we replace them with?

2. If they are replaced, how do they run and reach the masses?

3. If there is no replacement, then what do we eat? Do during our spare time?
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Old 2010-03-22, 18:14   Link #72
Lio
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Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
In fact I have something dire to say about the future of the Venus Project; the internet is at the moment the closest thing we have to freedom that is accessible to everyone. It is solely due to the internet that the project has been able to grow tremendously during the last year and a half. To chapters all over the world, when not even 4 years ago it was only a tiny idea somewhere in Florida. However, if corporations ever succeed in privatizing the internet you can kiss this movement good bye.

The Venus project has been up and going since the 70s! yet the people involved with it never had any way to connect to other people because the media is tightly controlled.

But don't be fooled. The elite already knows that the internet is not being very helpful to their establishment. They will continue to bride politicians in congress, such as John McCain to create legislation to privatize it. Watch out
;P
No, the elite knows that the Venus Project is just another futile attempt by the lower class to change the world order. To them, turning the Venus Project down is like squashing an ant. The only reason why they haven't yet is because the Project hasn't made any noticeable impact. It's that small.

If this thread indicates any success the Project has had, I have to say it is going nowhere. In fact, it might be even counterproductive.

The problem with their plan is calling it The Venus Project and making it so explicitly public, campaigning everywhere - which dooms them for failure. Sure, they can present lectures, build websites, "spread the word" and have some people agree with them, but it's all just mental masturbation. They don't realize that the people in society who owns the country and runs everything - will brush away their 40 year efforts as if they never existed. To them, it's just people trying to "change the world" with their little opinions.

The way to bring about change is to do it under the covers. Change the people covertly. Then external change will be easy.

Announcing external change first then trying to change society never works.

I'm sorry to reveal to you, but the guys behind the Project messed up on step one.
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Old 2010-03-22, 18:28   Link #73
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"Indeed, most of it should disappear. TV shows, video games, fast food among thousands of other things should banish, because they are products of the profit system."

"3. If there is no replacement, then what do we eat? Do during our spare time? "

now that is funny. nothing to do except watch shows and play games. nothing to eat except fries and burgers. shit...i say we go back to the stone age. hunt smth, mate, take a piss, hunt, mate...
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Old 2010-03-22, 18:46   Link #74
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Originally Posted by Lio View Post
No, the elite knows that the Venus Project is just another futile attempt by the lower class to change the world order. To them, turning the Venus Project down is like squashing an ant. The only reason why they haven't yet is because the Project hasn't made any noticeable impact. It's that small.
I wonder on that. If the elite truly did control the world, they'd be ensuring future prosperity for their families. I can't say they haven't succeeded to some aspect if that were true, but the world today is a dying one. Industrialized society has to change for the better if the species is to survive. It doesn't take a genius to see that.

I don't think the Venus Project is the way to go, but I do think dreaming and talking about the future is important. My big beef about the Venus Project is that it's like seeing a connect the dots picture, after someone connected the dots. Sure it's a pretty picture, but it does nothing to help me see how you got to the final picture.

Are people stupid and can't retrace the dots? No, but to most of us, this is the system we know and understand and when someone shows us a possible society that is radically different it's very hard to understand how to adjust to that. Present examples? Tourism. Immigrants with no desire to adapt to the new culture. Social stereotyping.

Calling the Venus Project a Star Trek society is kinda funny to me though - science fiction is just as much a warning as it is about dreaming the impossible. I don't know how much of our current world we owe to the literary visionaries of yesteryear, but I imagine the impact of someone like Asimov or Verne is bigger than most think.

So I do think it's great that people are willing to dream big. Touting the Venus Project as a sure fix for today's problems is not intelligent however. We're just exchanging one way of doing things for another - it could be better, but that's not saying much compared to the current world.
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Old 2010-03-22, 19:06   Link #75
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Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
He is not the only scientist out there that believes that genes are altered constantly based on the environment. The first time I heard about this subject was in a book (wish I remembered the name...) in which studies where being done on Jewish survivors of world war II. The studies showed that the DND had mutated, in some case dramatically, in the offspring of those Jews in order to adapt to the environment that their parents lived in. Do I remember what changed? no, but it was some sort of physical and mental propensities. My fascination with the issue was what ultimately brought me to Mr Lipton. You can google this subject up. There is plenty of info. Of course non of it i s accepted by main stream science, and in some cases it is labeled as pseudoscience.
Well trying to google up the topic didn't herald any specific results so I'd need your help on this one. I would like to see the presentation of this research to formulate my opinion on the matter, so some links from you would be appreciated. Anyhow onto my main response...

Enviornment effects the expression of genetic matrials. This is not a new concept and I'm not denying the claims that enviornment affects genes, but many of these sources you provide make blatant errors or fail to mention the all important joint effect between both enviornmental and basic genetic expression. They roll off the basis that the enviornment trumps the genes and that one can use the envionrment to change the way genes affect behaviour. It takes much more than that.

Here are some other things one must look at aside from just envionrmental influences...

- Behavior is often species specific
- Behaviours are often reproduced through generations
- Behaviors change in response to alterations in biological structures or processes
- Behavior has an evolutionary history that persists across related species (something I talked about in one of my earlier posts)

There is so much that comes into play with how genes interact with the enviornment that the Venus Project's and supporters straightforward solution just comes across as very incongruous.
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Old 2010-03-22, 19:27   Link #76
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Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
@Kamui and Nightbat After many posts and answers you guys seem to simply dismiss all the information that has been presented. Nearly all of your questions have been answered by me tens of times, and by the developers of the project, hundreds, if not thousands of times, due to the fact that they are among the very first things asked by anyone new to the idea. I could link a video response for nearly every questions you have have thrown at me, but that would be too cheap.

However, what I don't seem to get from you guys is why you don't bother to dig a little bit into the idea first so that we are all on the same page?
Dig deeper? I'm not the one trying to sell fata morganas to people, you are!
Yet you want me to do the work?


What you and the entire Project fail to see is it would be wide open for corruption and abuse
Because even capitalism would work if we were all honest and rightious

The project blames our Profit based economic system for all the ills in the world, but THAT isn't the culprit

Humans are

But blinded by naivity, it just doesn't want to accept that who they're trying to do it for are actually the ones that will destroy it
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Old 2010-03-22, 20:30   Link #77
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Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
Indeed, most of it should disappear. TV shows, video games, fast food among thousands of other things should banish, because they are products of the profit system.
It makes me wonder, since you are obviously a promoter of the Venus project...

Have you stopped watching TV shows, playing video games, and eating at fast food?
If your answer is yes, at what year did you stop?

Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2010-03-22 at 20:45.
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Old 2010-03-22, 20:46   Link #78
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Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
It makes me wonder, since you are obviously a promoter of the Venus project...

Have you stopped watching TV shows, playing video games, and eating at fast food?
If your answer is yes, at what year did you stop?
I think the question is, why the hell are you on a internet forum? And a anime one at that.

"Practice what you preach!" =P
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Old 2010-03-22, 20:51   Link #79
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Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
It makes me wonder, since you are obviously a promoter of the Venus project...

Have you stopped watching TV shows, playing video games, and eating at fast food?
If your answer is yes, at what year did you stop?
*tisk tisk* Touche...

I'm not a big fan of this Project thing, but I haven't watched TV, played video games or ate fast food for a long time. (Unless you count downloaded stuff like anime; I don't turn on the TV.)

Not because of any kind of beliefs, but because they're a hinder to my lifestyle and I feel alot healthier and more alive without them.
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Old 2010-03-22, 21:12   Link #80
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^ pretty sure you would also have to give up alchohol, fuzzy drinks, and not to mention your computer and anime most certainly. This is like some sort of hi-tech Amish society, that moves forward while standing still. At least in their "snap fingers to get hi-tech sci-fi nonsense" thinking thats how its suppose to work.
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