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Old 2010-03-22, 21:32   Link #81
Lio
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^ Like your previous post, I'd like to see those people walk their talk and apply it to themselves before telling other people what to do.

Those social movements that try to change how societies run always fail unless they do it by overthrowing the power (revolutions) or by creating a narrative that's convincing enough to a certain threshold of people (religions). But before then, I'd like to see how The Venus Project people live their lives as opposed to what they tell other people how to live.

Personally, I just do what I think is best for myself and the people around me. A simple doctrine, if you could even call it a doctrine, that I don't think is any less healthy than the vision that the people of the Venus Project, or all the other social movements, dream of.
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Old 2010-03-22, 22:16   Link #82
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
Who's to say people will be interested in figurines in such a time and place anyway? But to try and tackle the question, it will boil down to curiosity, experimenation with sculpting different shapes, trying to make an impression on other people, build a gift. The phrase "this is something I made for you" might have a different meaning in such an environment. The point is to take yourself out of context of the current material, scientific, sociopsychological conditions and think outside the box, something folks like Kamui4356 are obviously incapable of doing.
Why do you think a behavior that has been observed in all human cultures, from simple hunter gatherers to today's post industrial societies is something that can and should be altered? Further once again you're treating nanotechnology like it's magic. As far as I see it, it's a flight of fancy. Worse, it's one that's getting in the way of mankind's true destiny, to reach out and take grasp of the stars. That's something which we don't need magitech for either. A workable fusion drive and the solar system is in reach. Refine the technology for a few centuries until we can get up to at least .1c, then the stars are within reach. That is mankind's future, not to be servants to an AI. We'll create AIs, sure. In time we may merge with them and become post-humans. What we will not do is become their servants.

But let's say you're right, and this ideal society comes to pass with nanites assembling and disassembling things instantly, as needed, all under the watchful eye of our glorious AI masters. What about technological progress? Do we stagnate, to eventually die off? What happens when said AI masters look at humans, realize we're consuming a large percentage of the resources, yet not yielding anything useful in return?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
He is not the only scientist out there that believes that genes are altered constantly based on the environment. The first time I heard about this subject was in a book (wish I remembered the name...) in which studies where being done on Jewish survivors of world war II. The studies showed that the DND had mutated, in some case dramatically, in the offspring of those Jews in order to adapt to the environment that their parents lived in. Do I remember what changed? no, but it was some sort of physical and mental propensities. My fascination with the issue was what ultimately brought me to Mr Lipton. You can google this subject up. There is plenty of info. Of course non of it i s accepted by main stream science, and in some cases it is labeled as pseudoscience.
Don't you think there might be a reason why it's not accepted by main stream science? You might as well be talking about personal realities. Remember what I said about life not being Star Trek? Well, it's not To aru Kagaku no Railgun either.

Quote:
Science itself can become a very close minded establishment, specially main stream science, to the point where it becomes a truly religious establishment. Ironically, the culprit is the firm belief in the scientific method.


To many scientists, you must be able to observe, measure and replicate any subject in order to be accepted as real. Since main stream science must "see to believe" they are restricting themselves in areas of existence where the scientific method does not directly apply. The fixation on this method limits the scope of its vision, and ultimately cripples science itself.
See this is why I dismiss what you're saying as mad ravings. Do you not understand why we have the scientific method in the first place?

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People such as Georg Cantor, Rupert Sheldrake, Dr Jim Tucker, Mr Lipton, among hundreds of others have been disregarded as mere charlatans.
Maybe because they are?

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Telepathy, Ghosts, reincarnation, and other subjects are completely ignored by main stream science. The overwhelming number of reports and accounts do not mean a thing that religious establishment, at least main stream media is covering those subjects for the sake of profit.
Because they aren't real and there is absolutely no evidence to suggest otherwise.

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Don't get me wrong, I love science and I believe that it is indispensable in this day and age. What saddens me is that much of the scientific establishment is highly egocentric.

Sigh... ego ego...
You cannot say you think the scientific method is wrong and then say you love science. If you think the scientific method is wrong, you do not understand what science even is.


Quote:
@Kamui and Nightbat After many posts and answers you guys seem to simply dismiss all the information that has been presented. Nearly all of your questions have been answered by me tens of times, and by the developers of the project, hundreds, if not thousands of times, due to the fact that they are among the very first things asked by anyone new to the idea. I could link a video response for nearly every questions you have have thrown at me, but that would be too cheap.
I dismiss what you're saying because it has no basis in reality.

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However, what I don't seem to get from you guys is why you don't bother to dig a little bit into the idea first so that we are all on the same page?
You seem to be of the mistaken belief that further research will bring people around to your way of thinking, rather than convince them that you're incorrect.


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Why on earth do you keep bringing the concept of Utopia to this discussion?
Because that's what it is, a nonsensical utopian dream based on the federation from Star Trek. A rose by any other name and all.

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Are you that close minded that you do not dare to think outside of the box?
Translation: "People don't agree with me. They must be closed minded."

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Like I said before, the only constant in the universe is motion, nothing is absolute. If you think that the problem lies in the fact that you can't think of any issues that would arise once the system is in place, therefore it must be considered a perfect society, then you are aware of the fact that it is hard predict that which is outside of your parading of thinking. The Venus project is a concept that strikes some as so foreign and unimaginable because they are "too well adapted" or conditioned to their current environment.
No, I can think of lots of issues that will arise once it's in place. So can others. They've been mentioned time and time again in this thread. You just don't want to hear that your dream world isn't real. It's based on Star Trek, even down to the architectural style. The society described is pretty much exactly like the Federation is described in Star Trek The Next Generation. Well the mid seasons anyway. Later seasons and Deep Space 9 show us that it does have a dark side as well even with the magitech to keep things running. The main differences are Star Trek isn't run by computers, and the venus project isn't helping explore the galaxy. It's not foreign and unimaginable. It's seen time and time again in fiction. However, the concept does not translate well to the real world.


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I have studied the ego for years... The ego does indeed externalize things, but there is much more to it. I have discussed the ego at length in previous posts and in the other thread.
No, you've studied a new age spiritual concept that borrows the name.


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So because it is old it has no merit? By your logic, we should dismiss gravity and the theory of relativity. If you want to learn about conditioning you would do yourself a big favor by watching that documentary.
No, because it's old in an active field that's had much more research done in the past 30 years that doesn't support the claims made means it has little merit. You don't seem the understand the difference between something that is tested and supported through additional research and something that isn't.



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You seem inclined to think that having social stratification is a very positive thing to society. Did you know that countries where social stratification is low the quality of life is very high? The US is currently no where near the top when it comes to quality of life when compared to other countries due to its high level of stratification.
His point.

Your head, comrade.


Quote:
Indeed, most of it should disappear. TV shows, video games, fast food among thousands of other things should banish, because they are products of the profit system.
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Old 2010-03-22, 23:12   Link #83
Sugetsu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post

Are people stupid and can't retrace the dots? No, but to most of us, this is the system we know and understand and when someone shows us a possible society that is radically different it's very hard to understand how to adjust to that. Present examples? Tourism. Immigrants with no desire to adapt to the new culture. Social stereotyping.

Calling the Venus Project a Star Trek society is kinda funny to me though - science fiction is just as much a warning as it is about dreaming the impossible. I don't know how much of our current world we owe to the literary visionaries of yesteryear, but I imagine the impact of someone like Asimov or Verne is bigger than most think.
The project is indeed a very radical idea, at least by US standards. It has been much more easily absorbed in other parts of the world. The UK, Australia and much of south America come to mind. Could it be because those countries operate under a different type of government or culture? Who knows... I can only speculate.

What I can tell you for sure is that the project is doing extremely well is helping people identify with clarity and precision the weaknesses of our current society, which in turn promote the need for radical change. Bear in mind that the zeitgeist movement is very young, about 2 years old, and it has already sparked the interest of people and media around the world. Yes the venus project is officially 40 years old, but as mentioned before... it is only in this last 2 years that it has begun to grow (at an incredible rate BTW) thanks to the internet.

Make no mistake, the odds of the venus project being achieved in our life time are very slim. That is my opinion. Many in the project have predicted that its toughest sell will be at home; the US has shown very little interest in the project, and that's to be expected. Its citizens are very much used to its culture of consumerism. However, it is important for the project to succeed in the US, after all it is the seat of power. A big sign would be if it ever gets any air time in the main stream media.

The zeitgeist movement is constantly receiving feedback and ideas from all over the world, there are projects to improve it in the works, such as: (Quoted from the site)

Here is what we have on our agenda for the year 2010:

Media Project (priority: One-Two Months)
Zeitgeist University Network (priority: By August'10)
From Earth to Venus (Ongoing priority)
TZM WEBSITE 2.0 (Brainstorming stage)
Zeitgeist Social Media Stream (Priority is not decided)

At some point very solid ideas on how to transition will arise, and when that happens the movement will get a big boost in popularity.

The Venus project is not set in stone, it is constantly evolving. This is why it is open to all ideas. Its focus is to improve in the departments of:

Methods on how to assets the carrying capacity of the earth.
Earth resource database.
Media distribution.
Transition methods.
Education.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
It makes me wonder, since you are obviously a promoter of the Venus project...

Have you stopped watching TV shows, playing video games, and eating at fast food?
If your answer is yes, at what year did you stop?
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
^ pretty sure you would also have to give up alchohol, fuzzy drinks, and not to mention your computer and anime most certainly. This is like some sort of hi-tech Amish society, that moves forward while standing still. At least in their "snap fingers to get hi-tech sci-fi nonsense" thinking thats how its suppose to work.
I wonder why people assume that because I state the obvious, such as TV shows, video games and junk food being gone in a system without money, I am automatically applying that to my life.

One thing I really don't do at all is to eat junk food... except on extreme cases where I really have no time. Would it suck for me that video games would most likely disappear along with your regular TV programming? Of course, I have been addicted to that since I was brought into this world. Does that mean that the Venus project is terrible because its system doesn't have any money therefore people aren't inclined to make addicting stuff (that affects your life negatively as a means of escape) in order to make money? Of course not. Would it be hard to let my precious video games go? Yes.

But if you allow me to guess here, it might be possible that something such as video games would not banish completely... I would assume that the overly elaborated games of today where you have movie stars recording the voices of your character, or famous composers composing their music would be a thing of the past. You might see a completely different approach to them, something that is more practical for a single person or a small group of people to create on their own.

As for junk TV, such as WWE, Jerry Springer, Reality TV and the like, you can consider it far gone. You will continue to see, news, documentaries, comedy, theater, animation among other things that are art or research related.

Basically, use your logic, anything that is product of pure selfish greed that is currently a business is pretty much a goner in a system without money.

There is no product that comes from the profit system that is currently beneficial to society. (You are invited to prove me wrong here) Therefore, the only difficult part in leaving all those "wonderful" things behind will be on getting rid of our attachments to them.

@GuidoHunter_Toki Sorry I am still looking for the precise info, Ill let you know when I do.

@Kamui4356
That last response really shows that you only think in black and white. Too bad life is all about gray.

Last edited by Sugetsu; 2010-03-22 at 23:27.
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Old 2010-03-22, 23:30   Link #84
Liddo-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
I wonder why people assume that because I state the obvious, such as TV shows, video games and junk food being gone in a system without money, I am automatically applying that to my life.
You are only replying to my post with a straw man.
I did not say I'm automatically assuming that you are applying it to your life.

I was asking if you are applying it to your life.

Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2010-03-22 at 23:56.
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Old 2010-03-22, 23:59   Link #85
Sugetsu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
You are only replying to my post with a straw man.
I did not say I'm automatically assuming that you are applying it to your life.

I was asking if you are applying it to your life.
Sorry, I was just trying to unify two similar quotes in single response. I hope that at least I answered your question hehe
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Old 2010-03-23, 00:04   Link #86
justsomeguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
I wonder why people assume that because I state the obvious, such as TV shows, video games and junk food being gone in a system without money, I am automatically applying that to my life.
What, you're not willing to make the change even though that's what you want everybody else to do?

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As for junk TV, such as WWE, Jerry Springer, Reality TV and the like, you can consider it far gone. You will continue to see, news, documentaries, comedy, theater, animation among other things that are art or research related.
Who decides what's junk and what's art? Is there an "junk/art" scale or ranking system, besides number of viewers and profitability?

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Basically, use your logic, anything that is product of pure selfish greed that is currently a business is pretty much a goner in a system without money.
"Pure selfish greed?" If a company does not provide something customers desire, than it goes out of business! Protest against bailouts if you want, but don't lump the likes of GM in with actual profitable businesses.

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There is no product that comes from the profit system that is currently beneficial to society.
Medicine, housing and construction, transportation, food, etc are all products of the profit system. If there was no profit, people would work only for themselves, and only to survive, via subsistence farming. Society reverts to the stone age.

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Therefore, the only difficult part in leaving all those "wonderful" things behind will be on getting rid of our attachments to them.
Technically everything beyond things necessary to survive (food, water, shelter, healthcare) is a "wonderful" thing you propose humans to leave behind.

Quote:
@Kamui4356
That last response really shows that you only think in black and white. Too bad life is all about gray.
And you Sugetsu think that the Venus Project , Zeitgeist Movement, and pseudoscience is all white.
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Old 2010-03-23, 00:12   Link #87
GuidoHunter_Toki
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In further response to the profit system argument...

Not all human action is determined by profit, on the whole most human actions are determined by benefit. This may not appear to hold true until you consider the fact that not every person shares the same idea of what constitutes benefit, and most everyone's definition of it is different to a certain degree. Even people who have similar definitions will still be able to find areas where they don't agree, and to be honest that's just the way humans are. The skepticism this project is seeing here has to do with the general doubt that any such movement is going to not only be able to have people agree on what benefits the most, but to remain in agreement on what things benefit the most on a long-term basis. Such movements have been attempted numerous times throughout history, on different levels and in different configurations, and they rarely meet with much more than initial success. Often times such movements have been vehicles for those who are excessively devoted to the acquisition of power to gain dictatorial holds over a large number of people, whether through the use of cult-like religious/social measures or through a totalitarian political movement.

@Sugetsu I eagerly await your info, also...

I believe that a lot of the criticism you and the project are recieving here, it isn't that most here wouldn't think a world where science and discovery were the most prominent factors could be great, it's that most people here look to attempts to create such a world with caution and a bit of suspicion, and for very good reason; there is a lot of historical basis for such skepticism.

Maybe, rather than suggest that those who are skeptical of the Venus Project are simply being closed minded/critical due to it not being of mainstream acceptance, I urge you to consider that possibly their reasons may be every bit as logical and valid as the reasons that those who came up with the Venus Project used in their own proposition.
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Last edited by GuidoHunter_Toki; 2010-03-23 at 00:30.
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Old 2010-03-23, 00:22   Link #88
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
@Kamui4356
That last response really shows that you only think in black and white. Too bad life is all about gray.
Translation: "You don't agree with me, therefore you only think in black and white"

You've shown you don't understand why we have the scientific method. Your view of science seems to be taken out of anime like Railgun.

The venus project advocates a society that does not conform with observed human behavior. It bases this society on what is, in essence, magic. It makes humanity subservient to computers. It ignores real science. The only evidence you put forth are videos of madmen and snakeoil salesmen. Yet when people point this out they're "closed minded" or "only think in black and white". Have you ever considered, even for a second, that you might not be right here? That the criticism is actually valid?
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Old 2010-03-23, 00:35   Link #89
justsomeguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
Not all human action is determined by profit, on the whole most human actions are determined by benefit.
I would point out that benefit and profit are the same. The subtle difference is that monetary profit is stored value and can be traded in for something of "benefit" at a later time. The desire to obtain benefits for oneself is subservient to the main motive to survive.
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Old 2010-03-23, 00:41   Link #90
GuidoHunter_Toki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
I would point out that benefit and profit are the same. The subtle difference is that monetary profit is stored value and can be traded in for something of "benefit" at a later time. The desire to obtain benefits for oneself is subservient to the main motive to survive.
This is how I essentially go about my meanings of the two terms.

Profit - the advantageous quality of being beneficial
Benefit - something that aids or promotes well-being
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Old 2010-03-23, 02:21   Link #91
Sugetsu
Kurumada's lost child
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
Who decides what's junk and what's art? Is there an "junk/art" scale or ranking system, besides number of viewers and profitability?


"Pure selfish greed?" If a company does not provide something customers desire, than it goes out of business! Protest against bailouts if you want, but don't lump the likes of GM in with actual profitable businesses.
Perhaps my language wasn't clear. By product I mean creation, invention of. What I am asking is for someone to come up with an invention of the profit system (Fast food for example) that is productive/beneficial to society. Junk is classified as waste, numbers of viewers/consumers and profitability are completely irrelevant when defining the benefit of a product, their only relevance is whether that product matches the cultural values of the society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356
The venus project advocates a society that does not conform with observed human behavior. It bases this society on what is, in essence, magic. It makes humanity subservient to computers. It ignores real science. The only evidence you put forth are videos of madmen and snakeoil salesmen. Yet when people point this out they're "closed minded" or "only think in black and white". Have you ever considered, even for a second, that you might not be right here? That the criticism is actually valid?
With that quote you are completely dismissing all of our previous conversations and all the info that has been provided. You completely took my analysis on the limits of main stream science when regarded to well known phenomena out of context, then somehow superimposed them on my own perception of what science is. At the same time, you just converted the venus project into a religious establishment. You completely dismissed the video on conditioning which deals specifically on behavior as well as dismissed the opinion of highly respected people in it.

"The Venus project is the application of the scientific method for social concern".
- Jack Fresco

"The decision making would be made by a process which is the scientific method, in other words, no one would make decisions, rather people would arrive at decisions using factual statistical analysis which would take into account all information available about a certain issue rather than someone's opinion based on limited information."

This is my last effort to reach you. Took me a while to find this video on the very subject. Please listen to it carefully, after you do, feel free to ask me related questions.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki
Maybe, rather than suggest that those who are skeptical of the Venus Project are simply being closed minded/critical due to it not being of mainstream acceptance, I urge you to consider that possibly their reasons may be every bit as logical and valid as the reasons that those who came up with the Venus Project used in their own proposition.
I welcome skepticism, such as yours and many other posters here, because it represents an open mind. It is the only way to move forward. However, there are those few people that don't allow a discussion to progress by forcing me to go in circles.

Last edited by Sugetsu; 2010-03-23 at 03:36.
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Old 2010-03-23, 04:30   Link #92
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
With that quote you are completely dismissing all of our previous conversations and all the info that has been provided. You completely took my analysis on the limits of main stream science when regarded to well known phenomena out of context, then somehow superimposed them on my own perception of what science is. At the same time, you just converted the venus project into a religious establishment. You completely dismissed the video on conditioning which deals specifically on behavior as well as dismissed the opinion of highly respected people in it.
You stated yourself, and I quote here: "to many scientists, you must be able to observe, measure and replicate any subject in order to be accepted as real. Since main stream science must "see to believe" they are restricting themselves in areas of existence where the scientific method does not directly apply."

That you would say such a thing means you have no interest in actual science, nor understanding of why the scientific method is the first thing you learn in a high school or low level collage science course. There are very important reasons for it. If you can't observe, measure, and replicate results, there's no way to tell if it's true or something the person made up. If the scientific method doesn't apply, there's a reason, it's not science.

Also once again, the video you cited is almost 30 years old. There's been a lot of research into behavioral psychology since it was made. The newer research indicates that a lot of behavior is a result of nature, more than people want to think.

Quote:
"The Venus project is the application of the scientific method for social concern".
- Jack Fresco

"The decision making would be made by a process which is the scientific method, in other words no one would make decisions rather people would arrive at decisions using factual statistical analysis which would take into account all information available about an certain issue rather than someone's opinion based on limited information."
Wait, so let me get this straight. After saying the scientific method is holding science back, which is very "lol wat?" worthy, you're now claiming this is based on the scientific method?Ignoring the inconsistent application of the scientific method, how does that work? What mechanisms will bring this about? If you cannot answer that you're back to the "step 1: environmentalism step 2:??? step 3: profit" . That step 2 is the most important part. The only answer I got was from another poster, and it was something ripped from the playbook of Stain and Mao.

Quote:
This is my last effort to reach you. Took me a while to find this video on the very subject. Please listen to it carefully, after you do, feel free to ask me related questions.
You do realize that video is almost 10 minutes of him arguing semantics, then going on about how we need a single world government, then making an appeal to exceptionalism fallacy, correct? There's not a single thing in there you haven't said in this thread. Wait, I take that back. You haven't said n***er. He did. The guy is nuts. Everything you show me only convinces me of that more and more.


Quote:
I welcome skepticism, such as yours and many other posters here, because it represents an open mind. It is the only way to move forward. However, there are those few people that don't allow a discussion to progress by forcing me to go in circles.
You're the one who refuses to explain things any further. Though I guess it's because the people you're citing don't have the answers either.
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Old 2010-03-23, 07:15   Link #93
Jaden
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Well, the scientific method is changing too. Scientists used to believe in objective truth, but since quantum mechanics were accepted that's no longer necessary to the conduct of science.

Think about behavioural biology for example. It's simply impossible for us to observe and measure all the environmental and hereditary nuances affecting person X at time Y, much less replicate them. This field can only be considered science because they're being flexible about the scientific method. Wasting time trying to comply with the scientific method would cripple their valuable research.
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Old 2010-03-23, 07:43   Link #94
justsomeguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
Perhaps my language wasn't clear. By product I mean creation, invention of. What I am asking is for someone to come up with an invention of the profit system (Fast food for example) that is productive/beneficial to society. Junk is classified as waste, numbers of viewers/consumers and profitability are completely irrelevant when defining the benefit of a product, their only relevance is whether that product matches the cultural values of the society.
What's the difference between junk food and medicine? Both were invented in order to meet a demand from consumers! You're gonna support a system that creates products that are "beneficial" in some abstract standard, but might not actually be wanted, based on number of consumers?
"Junk is classified as waste" - define waste.
Also, I challenge you to provide examples of "inventions of the profit system" that do not provide any benefit whatsoever, and are successful (by which I mean still welcomed and selling well).

Quote:
With that quote you are completely dismissing all of our previous conversations and all the info that has been provided. You completely took my analysis on the limits of main stream science when regarded to well known phenomena out of context, then somehow superimposed them on my own perception of what science is. At the same time, you just converted the venus project into a religious establishment. You completely dismissed the video on conditioning which deals specifically on behavior as well as dismissed the opinion of highly respected people in it.

"The Venus project is the application of the scientific method for social concern".
- Jack Fresco

"The decision making would be made by a process which is the scientific method, in other words, no one would make decisions, rather people would arrive at decisions using factual statistical analysis which would take into account all information available about a certain issue rather than someone's opinion based on limited information."

This is my last effort to reach you. Took me a while to find this video on the very subject. Please listen to it carefully, after you do, feel free to ask me related questions.
Just because a bunch of people claim to use the scientific method does not mean that they do, the same exact way just because a bunch of people claim to be mouthpieces for God doesn't mean that they are. Your response here is useless.
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Old 2010-03-23, 07:58   Link #95
Bri
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I've just read the two essays of Fresco on the monetary system and the economy. It's like reading a high school essay. He just doesn't understand the nature of market based economics or the financial system. His suggestion for improvement is at best a mix between a Marxist style planned economy and cyberpunk.
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Old 2010-03-23, 10:56   Link #96
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
I've just read the two essays of Fresco on the monetary system and the economy. It's like reading a high school essay. He just doesn't understand the nature of market based economics or the financial system. His suggestion for improvement is at best a mix between a Marxist style planned economy and cyberpunk.
Holy cow, you put 90% of my argument into 5 lines. Brilliant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugetsu View Post
I welcome skepticism, such as yours and many other posters here, because it represents an open mind. It is the only way to move forward. However, there are those few people that don't allow a discussion to progress by forcing me to go in circles.
I wish you did. Besides, you don't blame others for shifting you around in circles when you are the thread starter : you command where the thread goes.

Since you have presented so many points that our current economic system is crap, why don't you present an alternative market model? From what I have read, you have so far presented nothing but semantics and other people's opinions. Where is your own?
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.

Last edited by Solace; 2010-03-23 at 13:40. Reason: Removed inflammatory word.
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Old 2010-03-23, 11:23   Link #97
Arbitres
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People can throw their support in as much as they want, but those that get to inhabit the fruition of the Venus Project -- which probably has been noted by me and afew others -- are those that can afford it.

The optimism can happen and we can build it right until it's for the privilege money-makers and born-wealthy.

Humans are indeed the culprits, as I agree with Nightbat. Humans have a tendency to abuse things and screw things up for the future generations.

Yes, let's go under the sea, afterall -- Earth has unlimited resources, why not waste it on a literal pipedream? I don't see the point, but we can live underwater once we actually advance our technology alittle further.

People can try to make Venus Project a reality. I can only guess it's the same people that think global warming doesn't exist, or only 'heat things up' as the name would imply.

Touching on Global Warming and the reality of it, while VP would solve the issue if we ever successfully flooded the entire world in melted ice caps -- It wouldn't last forever.

Gloval warming causes extended weather (snow, for example.) and can effect the growth of insects and their environments. Also, if VP is underwater, how exactly are they going to get food? Submarine? Local fish? Trapping people in an underwater dome can lower their standards in breeding and immune system. Also, let's not forget something -- How, exactly, are they going to get rid of trash and waste?

Thinking of the problems now can solve alot of them later... Though Venus Project just sounds more and more like a righteous waste of money.

"I worked to build it, I should live in it."

"Not exactly.. it costs *insert large sum of money*"

"I can't afford that."

"But I can."

I think that's how it will work. call me a pessimist, or an arse. Both are pretty much hitting the nail on the head xD
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Old 2010-03-23, 13:52   Link #98
Solace
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Join Date: Mar 2006
May I remind everyone here that there is no tolerance for insults. Disagree if you must, but personal attacks are not permitted.

It's painfully clear that most here simply do not agree with the Venus Project, at least in some principles. So here's a some questions before this turns into "hey let's attack everyone who talks about it because I think it's dumb".

1. Is there anything about the Venus Project that is positive? I imagine most will simply dismiss this with a quick no answer, but for the sake of discussion I hope people think before replying. Surely the entire thing isn't bad, so what is good about it?

2. The other side of the question, is....the Venus Project has many failings (at least in some views), so how would you do things differently if you were proposing a vision for the human race? Keep in mind where we end up is often different from where we start, no matter how noble the original intentions, so what does the Venus Project propose that you would do differently? What doesn't it propose that should be there? What would you remove, or replace?

Hopefully these questions will spur some more thoughtful discussion than just attacking quoted counterpoints.
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Old 2010-03-23, 15:08   Link #99
justsomeguy
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Join Date: Oct 2004
1) Use technology to improve distribution of resources and products. And yes, support globalization. This is already happening.
2) The economy is constantly evolving, and new layers of regulation and bureaucracy are created to "patch" any inadequacies. Efficiency can be improved by eliminating any redundancies or integrating necessary fixes into the system every so often. This process will likely to be a painful political battle.
3) Consistently enforce laws and regulations to protect against flagrant offenses (fraud, substandard construction, poisonous food, pollution, etc.)
4) Enforce a reasonable time limit on intellectual property ownership. Once the original inventors/creators are dead, what reason is there for descendants who didn't do anything to benefit?
5) Keep the free market and profit system, subject to #2, in order to gauge demand and motivate people to work. Command economies tend to run shortages, due to underestimating demand, workers with no reason to overproduce, and the lag time between deciding how much to produce and actually producing.
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Old 2010-03-23, 15:56   Link #100
NightbatŪ
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Neverlands
Age: 37
Storytime:

I had 2 dogs
These buggers recieved 3 meals a day, treats, were walked, groomed and played with, a pillow to sleep on

The perfect life

Why then did these little foxes steal my food the moment I turned my back?
Why did they at times attack each other for wanting what the other had? -which was the same as they both had
why did they get in a fight over a pillow large enough both could sleep on?

Dogs don't know about profit based society, they don't care the other dog has a red collar while they have a black one
They don't dream about becoming rich

but even when they're short of nothing, they still remain greedy, they still want to be in charge

and you can't start a venus project with dogs, just as you can't start such a project with humans

Primal instincts will remain present
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