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Old 2010-03-24, 05:33   Link #121
JMvS
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Now, now, let's discuss things in order:

First, central planning has some very strong proven limitations:
-while central planning has shown some reliability in managing war economies, that's precisely the limit to it! As in a war economy, the variable are reduced to a minimal number: how many soldier you have/can get, how many resources you need to equip and sustain them, and how many resources you still need to allot the remaining civilians to keep them alive and productive. WW2 was a time of scarcity all over the World, as resources went to War Effort, people surviving on minimal amounts of the less appetizing foods.
-the same conclusion can be applied to the USSR planned economy, as it was essentially a full time war economy: it managed to equip and maintain the largest army in the World, supplying it and it's ally with regularly modernized hardware. But that's it, apart maybe Vodka, it could not provide and distribute enough consumer goods, and even basic commodities such as food were scarce.
-this is due to human behaviors and needs being inherently chaotic, as long as they are past mere survival. Humans are diverse, first in their sizes and forms (thus related needs) and next in their likings, and they are driven by their successful omnivorous biology to seek the most diverse and appetizing means of subsistence.

So far, successful economic State interventionism is more or less limited to setting guidelines for development, with implementing related capital intensive investments:
-energy: dams, power plants and grids.
-transportation networks: roads, railroads, airports, highways, ports, etc...
-setting well connected industrialized zones.
-promoting key industries, via aforementioned elements and other policies.
Most if not any other market disconnected interventions have more than a tendency to result in failures.

Next, the very basic premise of creating a computerized way of managing it is essentially flawed:
-because it would have to be able to precisely and accurately determine the future in a chaotic system with an almost infinite number of variables.
-basically, that's what finance economist and traders have been pretending to do, only magnificently failing at it past extremely short, real-time management.
-also, the very idea of decidedly erratic and biased humans building a perfect system...


The Venus Project take on a Resource Based Economy, as highlighted by many peoples above (kudos to SaintessHearth for the link, but alas I can't give him any more cookies), to sum it up:
-resource availability can be very unequal and limited: there an extremely wide gap in the distribution and availability between, let's say for example, atmospheric O2 and gold...
-resources don't become magically available, you have to pour other resources to make one available (this is generally called investment). It also take various amount of resources to extract those (i.e. exploitation costs): operating an oil rig in Texas is not the same from operating one in the North Sea for example.
-now, like for Central Planning, Resource (War) Based Economies have been shown to work, actually providing much needed strategic resources in sufficient if not plentiful quantities, but again, it came at the expense of much sacrifices (for example, in WW2, miners were exploiting precious Molybdenum in the Swiss Alps, at an altitude of 3000 m, where conditions were extremely harsh and everything had to be carried by men, because at the time that was the only known deposit out of Africa).
-recycling is extremely limited, and as mentioned, takes even more resources... (try recycling... concrete for example...).
-more so, the VP seems to magically correlates environmental friendliness and abundance, which, unless you live in a magical world where you can summon anything at no cost nor impact, those are not exactly compatible, and even more often than not total opposites.

Placing all the blame on a "scarcity oriented economy" is pure nonsense, as explained above, but also because scarcity and abundance are only relative to the simultaneous evolutions of populations and resource availability, a very basic notion of elementary ecology the VP peoples seem to fail at.
Population growth is directly correlated to relative abundance, so for a true abundant RBE, availability of resources would have to grow at the same time, if not much more rapidly than the population.
Otherwise, you would have to mitigate either consumption or population growth as many human population have done in history:
-reduce individual consumption by promoting frugality; those were used, along with the maximized use of resources, in many societies like ancient China during past expansion boom periods. In any case, being linked with extremely large populations, it still exacted a heavy toll on the environment.
-curb population, either voluntarily, like in some Pacific Islands, trough absolute regulations on sexuality, reproduction, infanticide and required suicide; or trough the constant warfare between small post-Neolithic communities: (which mortality, considerably higher than the one resulting from recent wars, was kind of efficient).

Some communities do combine those to result in an apparent relative abundance:
-hunter-gatherer, but this has mostly to do with their constant struggle for survival, due to either harsh environment, and lack of means to extract the resources.
-monks: deliberately removing themselves from the gene pool, and aspiring for a frugal life; but this is mostly due to their perception of survival being a very secondary matter.
Anyway, both cannot be realistically used as models for the VP...


On another hand, the Basic Income concept also presented in SaintessHearth link is quite interesting, and seems worth to look into for post industrial economies.
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Old 2010-03-24, 08:40   Link #122
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
Actually, it might be possible to calculate "fairness," but it would require worldwide voting. Using the Borda count or a more advance ranking system, people would rank what is most important to them, and the computer would produce the aggregate rankings. I suppose food, medicine, clothing, shelter would be at the top. Anyway, based on the rankings, calculations of what every person would need, and a comfortable surplus, the available producers would be compensated for their contribution at a consistent rate. A vote will be taken once per arbitrary period of time to make sure that any mistakes or overlooked items are ironed out, but after a while fluctuations should cease unless a disaster hits.
So bassically we'll build machines to figure out what we need...by having everyone agree beforehand what we need. You're still stuck in the catch 22. To build this kind of system you need a level of cooperation and unbiased desire for fairness on the part of everyone that according to the Zeitgeist movement humans are incapable of performing at. Thus the necessity for the construction of the system to solve the problem. If we could create a system like this and agreed to abide by it, there wouldn't be any need for the system, cause humans would have already figured out the entire problem. It goes back to the issue of not understanding the method/theory of a mathematical function and trying to build a pocket calculator to do it for you.

What you described above requires cooperation and objectivity that according to the Zeitgeist movement humans are incapable of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
We will need to evolve as species
It really is silly how little understanding people have as to what evolution really means.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JMvS View Post
Next, the very basic premise of creating a computerized way of managing it is essentially flawed:
-because it would have to be able to precisely and accurately determine the future in a chaotic system with an almost infinite number of variables.
-basically, that's what finance economist and traders have been pretending to do, only magnificently failing at it past extremely short, real-time management.
-also, the very idea of decidedly erratic and biased humans building a perfect system...
This.

I'll go back to the calculator analogy. Someone who can't understand how a mathematical function works is not going to be able to program a calculator that tells him how to do that function.
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Old 2010-03-24, 09:22   Link #123
Jaden
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Quote:
Quote:
We will need to evolve as species
It really is silly how little understanding people have as to what evolution really means.
There's a broad definition of the word, indeed the definition of "evolution" itself has evolved. I believe he reffered to cultural evolution, which is much more significant than biological evolution in causing short-term changes to our species, and we can consciously change its direction.

Ahem, anyway, building the perfect descision-making machine was the problem, right? I think that's just a beautiful ideal, though. Of course the machine would be afflicted with our current lack of knowledge, and for a long time any meaningful machine can't even be built. Or maybe it can, I wouldn't know. Ha ha.

Since human goverment is still the way to go I suppose following the Venus Project we'd move towards something like a Technocracy. The problem with this, in turn, is that the most knowledgeable people are not always good leaders...
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Old 2010-03-24, 11:11   Link #124
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
It really is silly how little understanding people have as to what evolution really means.
Physically yes. We evolved from the Erectus to Sapien. Mentally no, for the past 300 years, even the mathematical academics of Fractals have proven us to put ourselves into depressive recessions once per century.

We have already reached the peak of mental evolution that we constantly screw our own race up every now and then with wars, environmental damage and stupid projects like this that drain whatever valuable natural resource we have left. This......is called the epitome of intelligent stupidity.

P.S You don't have to thank me with cookies JMvS. Just gimme a bunnygirl.
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Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2010-03-24 at 11:25.
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Old 2010-03-24, 16:12   Link #125
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
We have already reached the peak of mental evolution that we constantly screw our own race up every now and then with wars, environmental damage and stupid projects like this that drain whatever valuable natural resource we have left. This......is called the epitome of intelligent stupidity.
There really isn't any such thing as "peak" evolution. "Good" evolutionary traits merely refers to characteristics that increases an organisms chance to reproduce in their current environment.

The important factor here isn't that humans have reached some kind of Plataea for mental evolution, it's just that there isn't any pressure for it as a matter of survival. Despite the massive amount of social chaos that still exists in the world, mankind as a biological entity is thriving based on the fact that people are reproducing more.

And while capacity for death has increased, the scale and randomness of these events prevent there from being any kind of coherent pressure towards more "enlightened" humans becoming predominant. Simply because an enlightened human is just as vulnerable to die mass famine and war.
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Old 2010-03-24, 18:12   Link #126
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There's a reason government shouldn't muck about in economy.

What's politically expedient is often economically suicidal, and vice versa. This is why communism doesn't work.
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Old 2010-03-25, 12:17   Link #127
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
There's a reason government shouldn't muck about in economy.

What's politically expedient is often economically suicidal, and vice versa. This is why communism doesn't work.
Communism doesn't work because it's an economic theory that doesn't account for human nature and is adored by it's practitioners like a religion. This is a vibe that I'm getting from the Venus project as well.

People who find movements like this attractive really need to keep in mind that literally thousands of movements like this have promised that they suddenlly had the solution to creating heaven on earth.
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Old 2010-03-25, 12:28   Link #128
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That's definitely part of it, but seriously, if a business composed itself the way the US government does, they'd have gone under a long, long time ago.

Government and business really shouldn't mix. They're mutually exclusive, the antithesis of each other. Government should step in and regulate where necessary to ensure that the individual rights of their citizens are protected, as well as ensuring a safety net for when everything goes to hell, but government shouldn't get involved any further than that.
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Old 2010-03-25, 13:01   Link #129
monir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
The important factor here isn't that humans have reached some kind of Plataea for mental evolution, it's just that there isn't any pressure for it as a matter of survival. Despite the massive amount of social chaos that still exists in the world, mankind as a biological entity is thriving based on the fact that people are reproducing more.
Considering how terrible the 2008 version of the movie The Day The Earth Stood Still, the following quote still makes so much sense in light of this discussion:
"Only at the precipice do we change."
Yeap, I agree with you. On a much less somber note, we (American) just passed a universal health care bill.
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Old 2010-03-25, 13:56   Link #130
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More like a big bloated bag of suck healthcare bill. What's really sad is that said big bloated bag of suck is mostly better than the status quo.
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Old 2010-03-25, 14:21   Link #131
monir
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
More like a big bloated bag of suck healthcare bill. What's really sad is that said big bloated bag of suck is mostly better than the status quo.
"Beggars cannot be choosers."

Considering the main focus of this article in the thread is about pointing out how old ideas such as Capitalism has proven itself to be a dangerous form of economic model that is slowly bringing us to the brink of extinction and highlights the need for change, I thought mentioning the health bill serves as perfect reply to the cry for change. Afterall, 80% of the presentation of the Zeitgeist movement is about criticizing American and our stubborn awayness toward change. You can call it dry humor if you must.

Anyway, let's not delve into the health-care topic in this thread.
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Old 2010-03-25, 14:44   Link #132
Arbitres
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Physically yes. We evolved from the Erectus to Sapien. Mentally no, for the past 300 years, even the mathematical academics of Fractals have proven us to put ourselves into depressive recessions once per century.

We have already reached the peak of mental evolution that we constantly screw our own race up every now and then with wars, environmental damage and stupid projects like this that drain whatever valuable natural resource we have left. This......is called the epitome of intelligent stupidity.

P.S You don't have to thank me with cookies JMvS. Just gimme a bunnygirl.
No, this is just a waste of resources, Saintessheart. There is no evolution whatsoever. More like a backwards step if anything. Evolution is good, this is like the one box of junk that's in the way but you dunno what to do with it.

Exactly.


I would dare say the Venus Project could be a reality if people were connected as an entire race, without the following.

War, rape, acts of violence, crime, poverty, elite social structures, fluctuating economical structure, chain of command, status quo, population increase/decrease, defects, individualism.

Not necessary in that order.

The thing is people as mankind has too many barriers and walls standing in their way to do this. I would've torn down said barriers and walls BEFORE announcing Uranus project.

Oh? It's Venus Project? Not from where this is going.


Being able to build a dome city under water is an amazing and ambitious goal - thing is. Is it realistic?

Natural Resources vs changing environment vs mankind seperated into factions vs current crisis of economy the world over.

I said this but we have a -limited- amount of natural resources. The planet won't live forever, being able to ascertain space colonization will take all of mankind as well, but we can atleast mine asteroids and grow plants and animals on colonies.

Under water? Sure... Sure... I can't say it will or will not succeed.

It's just if it does, the rest of the world will be screwed because the amount of effort and resources it took.
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Old 2010-03-25, 14:53   Link #133
NightbatŪ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
"Beggars cannot be choosers."

Considering the main focus of this article in the thread is about pointing out how old ideas such as Capitalism has proven itself to be a dangerous form of economic model that is slowly bringing us to the brink of extinction and highlights the need for change
Looking at it realisticly, Capitalism is also the reason we thrive (and are becoming a burden as a species to this planet)

Say what you want, but extinction is not really a bad thing in the grand scale of things


For the VP to succeed, humanity would need a slap in the face and a big decrease in numbers to be mentally accepted
Unfortunatly for it to become reality, you need an enormous workforce which will again put a strain on the natural resources

Funny thing being, if population was decreased to a minimum level, the whole VP would have lost it's neccessity
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Old 2010-03-25, 16:13   Link #134
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by monir View Post
Considering how terrible the 2008 version of the movie The Day The Earth Stood Still, the following quote still makes so much sense in light of this discussion:
"Only at the precipice do we change."
That's what made me really pissed off at the ending of the Day the Earth Stood still. Cause creating a situation where violent sociopathic behavior is being massively selected for will change humanity. Just not in a way that any one would like. Wanna know who's going to survive when there are dozens, or even hundreds of times more people than the environments natural carrying capacity and you don't have technological agriculture? The most efficient cannibals.

Mass anarchy, famine and total violence are not situations that select for the kind of traits you'd need to build a utopia.
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Old 2010-03-25, 19:58   Link #135
Sugetsu
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It seems that nobody has changed their opinions on the Venus project. People still hold fast to the same preconceptions that they had before they knew anything about it, such as the project being just another religion, yet another dream of Utopia, or Jack Fresco being a madman, or that their promoters are out of touch with how the real world works. Those are very common assumptions that are to be expected any time a new idea is presented. The more radical the idea the more resistance it will encounter, again, this is all well and good, it is logical to react in this way, specially when the intended target of the idea are people that are very comfortable in the world they live in. The United States is at the seat of power, and it likes it that way. (not assuming all posters come from the US, just pointing out that it is easier to absorb the idea if you come from a poor country)

Therefore, the following essay is my personal opinion on the Venus project and the reason why I have decided to embrace it with such passion. Please note that the following text encompasses my own theories and ideas of the world we live in. If you find some of those eerily similar to ideas presented in books or other sources of information, even the Venus Project itself it is because I believe that there is no such thing as an original idea; there are millions of different variables at play in our lives and therefore a near infinite number of ways to arrive at the same conclusions as other people. Those who got famous by "their own inventions" are just individuals who believed it was important for the rest of the world to know as well as having the adequate set of circumstances for those ideas to manifested. As the saying goes: Knowing without doing is equal to not knowing.

WARNING, IT IS LONG!

Spoiler:



@Justsomeguy, sorry I promised you I would answer to your post earlier, but I believe that this essay of mine should directly or indirectly respond some of your questions.
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Old 2010-03-25, 21:41   Link #136
NightbatŪ
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Sugetsu, I applaud your idealism,
But if things sound too good to be true, they usually are

it proves just how naive and like sheep people can be
if I were a dictator, I'd love to have subordinates like you


here's my analogy:

You sound like a converted feeling everyone should enjoy your new found 'goal/cause'
needing to preach the word of god to others

Don't become something like a jehova's witness even trying to put your foot between the door to force your idea

....for I'll break it and kick you off my porch

-



Instead of following the (in this case Venus Project) flock, be critical, even you're not that stupid to follow something blindly?
Yet you are willing to give your future to soulless machines

your freedom of thought, your human desires, all shelved for such a thing as the VP?
then what will your life actually be? Wouldn't it just be better to remove humanity and hand over the planet to machines?


Instead of forcing somthing like the VP onto humanity, why not let nature handle it
for starters I sincerely believe that will sort it all out (I also believe karma is a bitch)
and maybe the VP will evolve naturally

...but ofcourse there are always impatient dreamers that want to see them realized at any cost in their lifetime
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Old 2010-03-25, 22:04   Link #137
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Originally Posted by NightbatŪ View Post

...but ofcourse there are always impatient dreamers that want to see them realized at any cost in their lifetime
i think his name was pol pot.
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Old 2010-03-25, 22:51   Link #138
Sugetsu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightbatŪ View Post
Sugetsu, I applaud your idealism,
But if things sound too good to be true, they usually are

it proves just how naive and like sheep people can be
if I were a dictator, I'd love to have subordinates like you


here's my analogy:

You sound like a converted feeling everyone should enjoy your new found 'goal/cause'
needing to preach the word of god to others

Don't become something like a jehova's witness even trying to put your foot between the door to force your idea

....for I'll break it and kick you off my porch

-



Instead of following the (in this case Venus Project) flock, be critical, even you're not that stupid to follow something blindly?
Yet you are willing to give your future to soulless machines

your freedom of thought, your human desires, all shelved for such a thing as the VP?
then what will your life actually be? Wouldn't it just be better to remove humanity and hand over the planet to machines?


Instead of forcing somthing like the VP onto humanity, why not let nature handle it
for starters I sincerely believe that will sort it all out (I also believe karma is a bitch)
and maybe the VP will evolve naturally

...but ofcourse there are always impatient dreamers that want to see them realized at any cost in their lifetime
I think you missed the point of my essay entirely. If anything you understood completely the opposite or didn't pay attention to it, or was too confusing to you. What you say is exactly the product of big egos. The idea that I presented to you were ideas that were there long before I joined the Venus project. Do you know why my nick name is Sugetsu? I have been using it since the beginning of the decade. We are water.

For those who understood it, I have a small comment: Do I think that the VP can achieve a world in which we no longer filter the light? Not at all. But it will be a very large living entity with a very weak membrane.

PS: and again, machines in VP are to do the same thing they do now, which is to do mundane, repetitive and brainless jobs that humans should not waste their precious time doing.

Edit: I just found a great documentary directly from main stream science in which the very idea of human nature is discussed and how it affected the creation of modern civilization. It is quite interesting and it supports the idea of the Venus project

http://video.google.com/googleplayer...&hl=es&fs=true

Last edited by Sugetsu; 2010-03-26 at 01:47.
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