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Old 2011-03-30, 13:45   Link #2121
Vanish
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Because plot, characters, emotional impact and world depth are what make a story good, not service nor songs. If you want to have a mixed bag, then the important things take prevalence. Fan-service DOES NOT contribute to the story or world the story is set in, and songs are only good to have when the story is a musical and are actually entertaining.

Even if 20 minutes more didn't make a difference, I'd be better to at least TRY to implement more rather than create some service episode and assume everyone who's watches it to appreciate it when in actuality it doesn't make the series any better.

If you like that kind of stuff, that's perfectly fine. But If the creators expect everyone to like it then they're just fooling themselves.
You're mostly right but it all depends on how closely you want to follow (analyze) the series. Some watch for fanservice, some for action, some for plot, some for a mix of those things. Some don't care about details and then other ones really take note at even few frames (like the penguins that were shown). After that comes your very opinion which is generally fine in my books.

Well, if they did try to implement something meaningful and it didn't make any difference, that would be an actual failure, no? I think that's worse than an intended fanservice episode. Besides, such episodes have become obligatory nowadays so this is nothing new. The questionable thing would be the placement as the last episode, but I guess it works for most according to the posts here.

And the "some people won't like it" is always a given so the staff merely tries to go for the way that pleases more people than less. A more radical example would be Highschool of the Dead when the director explicitly stated that most people would watch it for the boobs so he made the jiggling extra noticable and all. The disturbing thing is that he said that before the series actually aired / ended. That's where you could say that he was just fooling himself, in a way.
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Old 2011-03-30, 13:59   Link #2122
AzureWrath
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Well there are plot holes like the maid musical, and then there are things that you just have to kinda accept. In any kind of story, the author must take a few liberties that the read must accept. One of my teachers in college told me something like this...

"Every reader must be willing to accept the first leap into a story. If the author makes you do it again though, then you have to question the material."

I think it means that we must accept some premises about the way the world of the story works. In Zombie, the leap would be believing that there are necromancers, zombies, vampire ninjas, and masou shoujos. That was the first leap. If you discredit the work for making you believe in this world that they are in, then it is solely your fault for not liking the story. You denied it from the start. That is why I can accept that there are people who fight megalos with ramen and that Ayumu can get blown up w/o any real damage.

Now the second leap that I consider more of a plot hole/ desu ex machina is when the story excessively used its magical basis for a convenient plot device. Literally, the maid vampire ninja symphony that could defeat hundreds of megalos while also giving Sera a way back into the vampire ninja community was just too much of a leap to take. That was just pure desu ex machina which I think is lazy writing.

Anyway, moral of the story? You get as much as you expect. Just have fun with some shows and take it lightly. If you wish for a compelling story, then do research and find one. I know I've read 1984 and Art of War several times just for fun.
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Old 2011-03-30, 14:01   Link #2123
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I honestly don't know what to make of this anime. It's capable of delivering some really great emotional drama (I nearly shat myself when I heard Yuu talk) but then it shoots itself in the foot by doing weird shit like Vampire ninja's in maid suits dealing with Megalo whales by playing an orchestra piece. And then there's Yoruno going the complete 360. I honestly don't know what the problem was if Hellscythe didn't actually have any problem ending his life. It was rather satisfying to watch Yoruno and Ayumu beat the living shit out of each other but they had to ruin it by making Ayumu do the classic Touma-style preaching...
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Old 2011-03-30, 14:03   Link #2124
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Old 2011-03-30, 14:27   Link #2125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Because plot, characters, emotional impact and world depth are what make a story good, not service nor songs. If you want to have a mixed bag, then the important things take prevalence. Fan-service DOES NOT contribute to the story or world the story is set in...
Visuals in general, be it action, talking heads, etc. DON NOT contribute to the story either, if you get SO easily distracted, just read the novel, no swimswits, no voice-acting, no music, that ruin the story for you

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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
... and songs are only good to have when the story is a musical and are actually entertaining.
:facepalm:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Even if 20 minutes more didn't make a difference, I'd be better to at least TRY to implement more rather than create some service episode and assume everyone who's watches it to appreciate it when in actuality it doesn't make the series any better.
Better do something enjoyable with those 20 minutes, rather than pretend to try doing something you can not (judging from the preceding 100). IMHO, that was a wise choice; that is if you prefer results over pretence

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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
If you like that kind of stuff, that's perfectly fine. But If the creators expect everyone to like it then they're just fooling themselves.
If they wanted the majority to like their work, they wouldn't be doing an anime to begin with.
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Old 2011-03-30, 14:44   Link #2126
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Originally Posted by Vanish View Post
I never knew you could consider an obligatory fanservice episode (be it last or first) to have a climax of any importance to begin with. Wasn't the climax of the main story part already last episode anyway? This is more like a bonus imo.
Then I guess you know now.
Yes, I guess if you treat ep.12 as an OVA and ep.11 as the real last episode, it wouldn't seem as bad (not like the content would magically change), but in the end, they aired it as an episode 12 and I watched it as an episode 12 and it referred to the story of the previous episode.
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Old 2011-03-30, 14:48   Link #2127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Visuals in general, be it action, talking heads, etc. DON NOT contribute to the story either, if you get SO easily distracted, just read the novel, no swimswits, no voice-acting, no music, that ruin the story for you
Of course they don't, but those have nothing to do with what we're talking about.

And I would read the novel if I COULD, but usually for foreigners the anime is the only choice we have.


Quote:
:facepalm:
What is the point of this exactly? I'm stating songs only work for musicals, what's so exasperating about that?


Quote:
Better do something enjoyable with those 20 minutes, rather than pretend to try doing something you can not (judging from the preceding 100). IMHO, that was a wise choice; that is if you prefer results over pretence
Of course if you don't try, how are you going to improve? Just saying "screw it" and giving something entirely pointless is just effortless. Movie directors and book writers build and improve their abilities around readers/watchers criticism, just accepting everything they do isn't going to help.


Quote:
If they wanted the majority to like their work, they wouldn't be doing an anime to begin with.
Okay I'll specify my statement then:

"If the creators expected every anime fan to like it then they're just fooling themselves."

Happy sir?
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Old 2011-03-30, 14:54   Link #2128
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What is the name of the song that Yu sang in ep12? and is it out yet?
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Old 2011-03-30, 14:57   Link #2129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by higoku1 View Post
What is the name of the song that Yu sang in ep12? and is it out yet?
April 20th is your best bet because that's when the insert songs CD will be released.
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Old 2011-03-30, 15:25   Link #2130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Happy sir?
Not quite

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Of course they don't, but those have nothing to do with what we're talking about.
The so called fan-service, be it audio and/or visual, as part of sound and art/animation does neither add or subtract from the story content. The reason I mentioned it is that you sound like those happy campers who immediately condamn anything that a panty-shot as juvenile, while it's their exact meindset when making such a statement that IS actually juvenile considering their distraction and inability to follow a story. But let me also say that this might not be your case, and you just wrote something argue in a similar fashion

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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
And I would read the novel if I COULD, but usually for foreigners the anime is the only choice we have.
And there's your motivation to learn a new language

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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
What is the point of this exactly? I'm stating songs only work for musicals, what's so exasperating about that?
Let me elaborate then, do not make films with story, because the story can be told by text, with some helpful illustrations. Do not make music videos, because the song would suffice, etc. By the same merit we should remove OP/EDs, along with those insert songs.

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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Of course if you don't try, how are you going to improve? Just saying "screw it" and giving something entirely pointless is just effortless. Movie directors and book writers build and improve their abilities around readers/watchers criticism, just accepting everything they do isn't going to help.
But they were trying to squeeze the original for five episodes... IMHO, the sooner you understand your mistakes (ep.7-11), the sooner you can fix them (ep.12). As for professionals improving with experience, sorry mate but that is extremely rare

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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Okay I'll specify my statement then:

"If the creators expected every anime fan to like it then they're just fooling themselves."
You are aware of the concept of target audience? Any form of enterntainment must be extremely trivial (therefore unoriginal and boring) in order to appeal to an overlapping audience.

DISCLAIMER: There are exceptions to all the above statements
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Old 2011-03-30, 15:38   Link #2131
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Fanservice doesn't add or substract as you call it, but it can still actually influence the plot. Just saying. Btw. I suggest you rethink your priorities in life before starting to learn Japanese because you wanted to read a novel.
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Old 2011-03-30, 16:05   Link #2132
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Originally Posted by Xacual View Post
What else is there to flesh out? He basically just served as development for Yuu and Ayumu's relationship. He was Yuu's first zombie she created and after a long time alive he got tired of it and attempted to do things that would distress Yuu enough to kill him but apparently her first attempt didn't stick or that might have been on purpose.
No, there's still a lot of questions surrounding Yoruno left unexplained. For instance, what happened to Kyouko? If she's really brainwashed, is she still evil or not after Yoruno is gone? What exactly is the nature of his powers? Is it natural for zombies (meaning Ayumu could get it in the future) or does he has to do something else for it? Is it related to the person he killed before? What exactly is the backstory of when Yuu kills him? If Yuu killed him before why won't she kill him again? There's quite a lot, really.

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Originally Posted by AzureWrath View Post
I think it means that we must accept some premises about the way the world of the story works. In Zombie, the leap would be believing that there are necromancers, zombies, vampire ninjas, and masou shoujos. That was the first leap. If you discredit the work for making you believe in this world that they are in, then it is solely your fault for not liking the story. You denied it from the start. That is why I can accept that there are people who fight megalos with ramen and that Ayumu can get blown up w/o any real damage.

Now the second leap that I consider more of a plot hole/ desu ex machina is when the story excessively used its magical basis for a convenient plot device. Literally, the maid vampire ninja symphony that could defeat hundreds of megalos while also giving Sera a way back into the vampire ninja community was just too much of a leap to take. That was just pure desu ex machina which I think is lazy writing.
Yeah, you raised a good point here. Sure, Kore Zombie is random, but it still has rules that it follows, you can't simply use magic or randomness to excuse away any inconsistencies. For instance, from the first ep we know that Masou Shoujo are able to erase memories, so Kyouko conveniently tricking everyone makes sense. But here they just say a rule out of nowhere, that the only one who can defeats it is one who drank the blood of Necromancer (btw, why are the rest playing then? Emotional support?), out of nowhere and it just works. At least when Tomonori defeats Megalo by Ramen we're given a bit more info about how she can do that.

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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
PS2: what happened to that blond guy from school, up until this episode I was waiting for a NTR-twist
Refresh my memory again, who is this blond guy you're talking about?

Spoiler for final impressions:
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Old 2011-03-30, 16:34   Link #2133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
The so called fan-service, be it audio and/or visual, as part of sound and art/animation does neither add or subtract from the story content. The reason I mentioned it is that you sound like those happy campers who immediately condamn anything that a panty-shot as juvenile, while it's their exact meindset when making such a statement that IS actually juvenile considering their distraction and inability to follow a story. But let me also say that this might not be your case, and you just wrote something argue in a similar fashion
I see I guess I better clarify then; I DO NOT hate fan-service itself. Being a straight young man, It's only natural that I have an interest in girls/women. But for the most part, I just disregard it. (If you look back through this thread for my previous posts you'll see I never (or barely) make comments about how any of the girls' in this series look.)

What I hate is when plot takes a back seat to fan-service. It tells me the creators don't have their priorities to making a good story straight. That's what putting the entire last episode of this show as a plot-less fan-service episode said to me.


Quote:
And there's your motivation to learn a new language
The desire to read one light novel isn't enough incentive unfortunately. Now something like actually traveling to Japan and/or getting an occupation there certainly is.


Quote:
Let me elaborate then, do not make films with story, because the story can be told by text, with some helpful illustrations. Do not make music videos, because the song would suffice, etc. By the same merit we should remove OP/EDs, along with those insert songs.
Even though I don't usually watch OP's or ED's, I'll have to disagree with the last part. The purpose of those is strictly to hype/relax the viewer and one without a song would be just unheard of.

But I'll ask you this, did the songs in Korezom's last episode have any effect on the plot? Was there a reason they needed to put them in there? No there isn't. Unless it's a musical, where the plot can progress and characters can be developed through song, there isn't any reason to have a song number there.


Quote:
But they were trying to squeeze the original for five episodes... IMHO, the sooner you understand your mistakes (ep.7-11), the sooner you can fix them (ep.12). As for professionals improving with experience, sorry mate but that is extremely rare
But what did the last episode fix exactly? It had no relation to the 5 preceding episodes so there was nothing they could fix. If they had made and episode that DID relate to the previous ones they would've had a chance to.


Quote:
You are aware of the concept of target audience? Any form of enterntainment must be extremely trivial (therefore unoriginal and boring) in order to appeal to an overlapping audience.
Alright you got me here. Some people prefer some things over others I understand that.~
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Old 2011-03-30, 16:39   Link #2134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanish View Post
Fanservice doesn't add or substract as you call it, but it can still actually influence the plot. Just saying.
That's the difference between fan-service and porn, teenagers these days tend to confuse one with the other

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Originally Posted by Vanish View Post
Btw. I suggest you rethink your priorities in life before starting to learn Japanese because you wanted to read a novel.
Never regretted english, german, french, japanese (to varying degrees fluency)... actually, more useful than greek, and gaelic, that was 12 years lost

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Originally Posted by Saturn Beaver View Post
Refresh my memory again, who is this blond guy you're talking about?


I think he showed up in more episodes...

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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
I see I guess I better clarify then; I DO NOT hate fan-service itself. Being a straight young man, It's only natural that I have an interest in girls/women. But for the most part, I just disregard it. (If you look back through this thread for my previous posts you'll see I never (or barely) make comments about how any of the girls' in this series look.)

What I hate is when plot takes a back seat to fan-service. It tells me the creators don't have their priorities to making a good story straight. That's what putting the entire last episode of this show as a plot-less fan-service episode said to me.
The plot (not characterization) took a back step only in the last episode in favour of fan-service of which in my eyes the show did not have enough. And I count there Ayumu's pantyshots

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The desire to read one light novel isn't enough incentive unfortunately. Now something like actually traveling to Japan and/or getting an occupation there certainly is.
I guess I have weird hobbies then

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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Even though I don't usually watch OP's or ED's, I'll have to disagree with the last part. The purpose of those is strictly to hype/relax the viewer and one without a song would be just unheard of.

But I'll ask you this, did the songs in Korezom's last episode have any effect on the plot? Was there a reason they needed to put them in there? No there isn't. Unless it's a musical, where the plot can progress and characters can be developed through song, there isn't any reason to have a song number there.
I will agree that this is the intention, unfortunately it does not work out that well in practise, because keeping the same theme/song at OP/ED is very often at odds with the atmosphere, and even worse occasionally utterly opposing it. As for the inserts, the goal is obviously promotion (as with the TV-airing of late night anime), that said, Sera/Saras song as well as Yuu's enhanced the mood, Haruna's... can't judge, since I listen mostly to death metal

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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
But what did the last episode fix exactly? It had no relation to the 5 preceding episodes so there was nothing they could fix. If they had made and episode that DID relate to the previous ones they would've had a chance to.
It did not fix anything as I wrote before, it rather focused on the strengths of DEEN's writers, promote the novel.

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Alright you got me here. Some people prefer some things over others I understand that.~

Last edited by Malkuth; 2011-03-30 at 16:54.
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Old 2011-03-30, 16:45   Link #2135
DragoZERO
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Well, that's a funny final episode. Definitely over the top too. Didn't care for Haruna's rocker outfit and all. I think something along the lines of Ranka would have been better, it's what I was expecting. But the best part was of course Yuu singing.

I give this series a 8/10. I hope for a second season.

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Originally Posted by serenade_beta View Post
Then I guess you know now.
Yes, I guess if you treat ep.12 as an OVA and ep.11 as the real last episode, it wouldn't seem as bad (not like the content would magically change), but in the end, they aired it as an episode 12 and I watched it as an episode 12 and it referred to the story of the previous episode.
Yes, exactly. I think it's a nice touch since it brings us back to the comedy that made this so fun. It's like an epilogue in a way too.

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Btw. I suggest you rethink your priorities in life before starting to learn Japanese because you wanted to read a novel.
What? How could you say that? There is nothing wrong with someone wanting to learn another language, for whatever reason (unless it's criminal or something so bad they'd lock you up). Just because it may be a waste of your time, does not mean it will be for someone else.
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Old 2011-03-30, 17:11   Link #2136
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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
I think he showed up in more episodes...
Heh, I totally forgot about him. Heck, I'm not sure I've even notice him in the first place, I don't even remember him speaking. Even the two girls chat with Tomonori at one point, has this guy ever done something?

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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
It did not fix anything as I wrote before, it rather focused on the strengths of DEEN's writers, promote the novel.
Well, I suppose they did a great job here, as I sure would prefer reading the source material than the anime. If only I can understand Japanese...
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Old 2011-03-30, 17:23   Link #2137
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Heh, I totally forgot about him. Heck, I'm not sure I've even notice him in the first place, I don't even remember him speaking. Even the two girls chat with Tomonori at one point, has this guy ever done something?
I'm pretty sure he is just one of Ayumu's friends like the two girls. I couldn't tell you for sure but I wouldn't be surprised if the anime cut out school scenes where Ayumu talked with them I know the blond guy has some scenes later in the novels.
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Old 2011-03-30, 17:43   Link #2138
Saturn Beaver
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I'm pretty sure he is just one of Ayumu's friends like the two girls. I couldn't tell you for sure but I wouldn't be surprised if the anime cut out school scenes where Ayumu talked with them I know the blond guy has some scenes later in the novels.
Ahh, ok, this makes sense. I just don't get where the NTR-twist he said is supposed to be coming from, doesn't fit into anything at all.
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Old 2011-03-30, 17:47   Link #2139
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I don't like saras anymore,she was supposed to be a secret ninja and she is an ugly idol too.I was a little disappointed with her
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Old 2011-03-30, 17:58   Link #2140
AzureWrath
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The man is obviously not going to concede points. I could go on, but his mind is set already so it is best to just leave a closing remark.

The quality of a plot is directly proportional to the amount of time given to tell it. The first half of the series was used to tell just one volume. Theoretically, the quality should be higher since more time was centered on plot and character development.

Since the second half of the series was told over a much shorter time and used to cover more material, the quality of its telling compared to the original work goes down in a way that is directly proportional to the amount of time spent on it. The studio (come on DEEN has been known to mess up sometimes) choose to spend the time allotted to them in such a fashion thinking it would be the best way to convey the story (that and to might it a climaticish conclusion for the season).

Can we fault for them how they choose to allot the time? Sure, but it is just simply a matter of time vs quality. Remember that their main loyalty isn't to the material itself, but to make money (hopefully by making good material). There are men upstairs that tell them they must cover xyz and that the season must conclude in a certain way (normally a finale).

I'm sure the show could have been better, but I don't fault them over small things like them choosing to make the final episode (not the finale, since that was episode 11) a fan service episode. It was just what they thought would be the best use of their time.
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