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Old 2010-03-27, 09:19   Link #201
Kasiro
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OMG WTF BBQ.

Just when I thought that the battle was about to end. SHANKS APPEARS.
It's going to take a whole lot to match this arc in the future.

Oh and, haha, Ben Beckman. Am I the only one that read Beckham the first time?
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Old 2010-03-27, 09:57   Link #202
Azncoke123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashesatdusk View Post
I really don't want to get to far into a pretty meaningless discussion, my comment was originally just lamenting on the fact to kind of treat this as the type of major wars (not some of the more minor ones), is dumb. I view it as a battle more than anything else.


Whitebeard pirates = Gang. This is more like a war between the mafia and the government, then a war. Regardless of the fact white beard controls territorial waters he's not a sovereign entity. Sure he has an organization (his pirate crew), but that isn't the same thing as being a country.
I wouldn't compare Whitebeard to a regular gang. Whitebeard was a man that can destroy the world, he was someone that had influence thru. out the entire ocean. This was a war between two BIG influences in the world.
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Old 2010-03-27, 11:45   Link #203
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the geneva conventions were drafted by a bunch of ideological and naive fools. Since its ratification i seriously doubt any country has paid anything more then lip service to it.
to the guy who disagree with me here, would you mind responding with more then just a lol?
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Old 2010-03-27, 11:58   Link #204
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^Why would they respond to a in-depth geo-political question in a One Piece thread ? Hell, I am not even sure why you posted an anti-UN response here to begin with. If you want to talk about the UN, there are already multiple threads on the issue in the General sub-forum...
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Old 2010-03-27, 13:07   Link #205
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Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
Well, the usual definition for a country says, that something needs to have three things to be considered a country: A territory, people and some sort of (military) control.
WB seems to have everything.


Actually they are missing the biggest thing to be recognized as political entity, which is that most other sovereign entities in fact recognize you as a legitimate political entity with right of rule, which I'm sure the world government which represents the union of most of the world does not.

The sovereign entities recognizing you is a much bigger deal, than people realize. Taiwan lost its UN seat in the 1970s due to decisions by Richard Nixon, now a large part of its politics is devoted to how to maintain its soveirgnty in the face of a China who does not recognize it as a separate country, and the rest of the world on paper who does not, the only reason they are even able to maintain a discussion is that a few powerful nations tacitly recognize taiwan as a political entity.

One of the major turning points during the southern united states lost the civil war, is Europe's refusal to recognize them as a political entity. Had they convinced Europe they were sovereign, the north may have lost the civil war
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Old 2010-03-27, 13:33   Link #206
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^I'm partially joking when I say this, but Whitebeard was called the King of the Sea by Garp, so that is an admission of sovereignty, right?
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Old 2010-03-27, 13:35   Link #207
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Originally Posted by ashesatdusk View Post
Actually they are missing the biggest thing to be recognized as political entity, which is that most other sovereign entities in fact recognize you as a legitimate political entity with right of rule, which I'm sure the world government which represents the union of most of the world does not.

The sovereign entities recognizing you is a much bigger deal, than people realize. Taiwan lost its UN seat in the 1970s due to decisions by Richard Nixon, now a large part of its politics is devoted to how to maintain its soveirgnty in the face of a China who does not recognize it as a separate country, and the rest of the world on paper who does not, the only reason they are even able to maintain a discussion is that a few powerful nations tacitly recognize taiwan as a political entity.

One of the major turning points during the southern united states lost the civil war, is Europe's refusal to recognize them as a political entity. Had they convinced Europe they were sovereign, the north may have lost the civil war
doesn't matter if Europe recognize the South as a independent country. If they weren't willing to sent troops to help the south the result would still be the same.
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Old 2010-03-27, 13:40   Link #208
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
doesn't matter if Europe recognize the South as a independent country. If they weren't willing to sent troops to help the south the result would still be the same.
Actually those were the discussions that were taking place during the civil war, its usually glossed over in civil war classes taught in american high schools, European nations would have recognized the south as an entity had they proved they could defent their own borders, which the south failed to do after the talks. Which ended european involvement (though napoleon wanted to try to end the war in 2003).

Any way in a lame attempt to bring this back on topic. I'm wondering if the next chapter is the end since the chapter ended with "The end draws nigh"
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Last edited by ashesatdusk; 2010-03-27 at 13:51.
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Old 2010-03-27, 14:01   Link #209
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Uh..... y'know, what with Shanks' arrival and all, I'm actually kinda surprised that this thread isn't flooded with "NOW DRAGON WILL ARRIVE NEXT" posts. Not that I'm really expecting him to arrive at Marineford or anything, but seeing as him, Blackbeard and Shanks are some of the most popular subjects of speculation amongst fans (and two out of the three are present at Marineford), I'm actually amazed that there's such a lack of Dragon talk.....



Anyway, while it's nigh-impossible to predict what will happen next at this point, I'd like to bring up something I had touched upon earlier in the thread: It's quite possible that the remaining Whitebeard pirates will join with Shanks at this point. Again, recall that Shanks had even offered Marco a spot in his crew during his talk with Whitebeard. Now that the crew's lost their "father", who gave them all a place to live, they pretty much have nothing left. Right now, Shanks seems to be the only one who's able to give the remaining sons of Whitebeard a "home", so to speak, so it would probably be most beneficial for them to cooperate with him from now on, or else their future will seem mighty bleak, indeed......
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Old 2010-03-27, 15:00   Link #210
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
Uh..... y'know, what with Shanks' arrival and all, I'm actually kinda surprised that this thread isn't flooded with "NOW DRAGON WILL ARRIVE NEXT" posts. Not that I'm really expecting him to arrive at Marineford or anything, but seeing as him, Blackbeard and Shanks are some of the most popular subjects of speculation amongst fans (and two out of the three are present at Marineford), I'm actually amazed that there's such a lack of Dragon talk.....



Anyway, while it's nigh-impossible to predict what will happen next at this point, I'd like to bring up something I had touched upon earlier in the thread: It's quite possible that the remaining Whitebeard pirates will join with Shanks at this point. Again, recall that Shanks had even offered Marco a spot in his crew during his talk with Whitebeard. Now that the crew's lost their "father", who gave them all a place to live, they pretty much have nothing left. Right now, Shanks seems to be the only one who's able to give the remaining sons of Whitebeard a "home", so to speak, so it would probably be most beneficial for them to cooperate with him from now on, or else their future will seem mighty bleak, indeed......
or they could strike out on their own as they are pretty strong in their own rights.
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Old 2010-03-27, 15:08   Link #211
ellifeedn
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Another possibility is that they could continue to protect the islands that were under Whitebeard's protection. That way Fishman island can be saved from the possibility of the past occurring again.
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Old 2010-03-27, 15:11   Link #212
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Originally Posted by ashesatdusk View Post
Actually they are missing the biggest thing to be recognized as political entity, which is that most other sovereign entities in fact recognize you as a legitimate political entity with right of rule, which I'm sure the world government which represents the union of most of the world does not.

*snip*
Doesn't that all go back to . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
Well, the usual definition for a country says, that something needs to have three things to be considered a country: A territory, people and some sort of (military) control.
WB seems to have everything.
this?

The only real reason one nation would not bother to recognize another as a legitimate nation is because they can't take care of themselves. Without military power, no one is going to want to bother with you, because you're only a nuisance and dependent to them.

Whitebeard definitely had the power to be recognized. Though it's never been said outright in the manga, it's probably best to think of Whitebeard's territory having been its own country. When he can bring relative peace to an island just by claiming it as his own, he's got the power of a nation behind him, whether it's official or not.
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Old 2010-03-27, 15:34   Link #213
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
Uh..... y'know, what with Shanks' arrival and all, I'm actually kinda surprised that this thread isn't flooded with "NOW DRAGON WILL ARRIVE NEXT" posts. Not that I'm really expecting him to arrive at Marineford or anything, but seeing as him, Blackbeard and Shanks are some of the most popular subjects of speculation amongst fans (and two out of the three are present at Marineford), I'm actually amazed that there's such a lack of Dragon talk.....
Dragon showing up would kill us all. It'd be physically impossible for a human to withstand so much awesome.

I don't think Dragon will show up. If anything, he'll let the Marines bleed their strength on this little war while he starts more revolutions with impunity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
Anyway, while it's nigh-impossible to predict what will happen next at this point, I'd like to bring up something I had touched upon earlier in the thread: It's quite possible that the remaining Whitebeard pirates will join with Shanks at this point. Again, recall that Shanks had even offered Marco a spot in his crew during his talk with Whitebeard. Now that the crew's lost their "father", who gave them all a place to live, they pretty much have nothing left. Right now, Shanks seems to be the only one who's able to give the remaining sons of Whitebeard a "home", so to speak, so it would probably be most beneficial for them to cooperate with him from now on, or else their future will seem mighty bleak, indeed......
That would likely spell trouble for the Marines, since it would give one of the Warlords, who apparently only has the one ship and still holds his own, a huge new army. Shanks would probably outclass the remaining two Warlords on the spot.
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Old 2010-03-27, 16:49   Link #214
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Quote:
Uh..... y'know, what with Shanks' arrival and all, I'm actually kinda surprised that this thread isn't flooded with "NOW DRAGON WILL ARRIVE NEXT" posts.
I thought I already posted that. In the case I didn't, he should show up and join the party. Really though It wouldn't have the same suprise or impact factor if he did show up, though he has a real motivation. This is a grand oppurtunity to do severe damage to WG. They seem a bit over extended even if they took out white beard.


Quote:
t's probably best to think of Whitebeard's territory having been its own country. When he can bring relative peace to an island just by claiming it as his own, he's got the power of a nation behind him, whether it's official or not.
That is just your speculation. Your entitled to it. Its also going back to my original argument. Anyway my intent was not to get into a philosophical discussion about what is a country, which is where we are headed. I simply don't see this as some grandoise war. Sure its the most intense and important battle in the series, but to say things as eloquently as possible "It aint no freaking war"
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Old 2010-03-27, 16:57   Link #215
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Actually they are missing the biggest thing to be recognized as political entity, which is that most other sovereign entities in fact recognize you as a legitimate political entity with right of rule, which I'm sure the world government which represents the union of most of the world does not.
WB is recognized by the World GOvernment (as one of the Yonkou i.e. an Emperor).

He is also recognized by the majority of the pirate 'community'. His mere declaration that Fishman Island was his territory brought peace to the island. Isn't that proof of recognition?
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Old 2010-03-27, 18:49   Link #216
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or they could strike out on their own as they are pretty strong in their own rights.

I figured something like this would be said. However, the question is: Are any of the commanders really up to the task of taking Newgate's place? No matter how you cut it, Whitebeard had a monumental responsibility on his hands. Not only did he have to look over all 16 of his divisions, but he also had to keep a certain degree of order in the New World as well, seeing as he was one of the emperors. It may well have been that Whitebeard was the only one in his crew who was capable of juggling between those herculean tasks as a captain, and even veteran commanders like Marco and Jozu may lack the necessary qualities to replace Newgate as a sovereign and a father......



....However, despite that fact, I don't see the crew disbanding, either. After all, it's pretty much been driven into our heads by now that Whitebeard's crew is a family. Now that they've suffered such major losses and have been thrown into a new, chaotic era, it's more imperative than ever before that they stay united. And this.... is where Shanks, a fellow emperor, comes in. He already once offered Marco to join his crew, so why not take the whole bundle while he's at it? In fact, it would even be advantageous for them since the government had feared an alliance between Shanks and Whitebeard's crews in the first place. Yes, this is why I think this is the best path for the crippled Whitebeard pirates to follow at this point......
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Old 2010-03-27, 22:41   Link #217
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And this.... is where Shanks, a fellow emperor, comes in. He already once offered Marco to join his crew, so why not take the whole bundle while he's at it?
I donít think this will happen. All the major pirate crews have their own unique, individual identity. Iím sure the Red-Hair Pirates have their own internal dynamics and core convictions which make them different from other pirate crews. Meanwhile, the Whitebeard group is huge and comprised of powerful Commanders and they have their own philosophy (the importance of Family) that the Red-Haired pirates may not share. I donít think the Red-Haired pirates can absorb such a large, prominent group and still maintain its identity. Iím not even sure that the Whitebeard pirates would find the idea attractive even after the recent beating theyíve taken.

Quote:
However, the question is: Are any of the commanders really up to the task of taking Newgate's place? No matter how you cut it, Whitebeard had a monumental responsibility on his hands.
I do agree that they will not splinter since the notion of Family is so important to them and youíre right that none of the Commanders can match up to Whitebeard. Heck, no one can match up to Whitebeard (Iím looking at you Mr Teach). However, Iím more optimistic that Marco could be the next Captain. He shares Whitebeardís beliefs fairly strongly and heís taken a lot of initiative in this War so far. Based on what few hints Oda has given us, the other really strong Commanders (Joz and Vista) and the rest of the crew seem to look up to him. As an individual, heís insanely powerful and while he canít cause large-scale damage the way Whitebeard did, I donít think anyone can beat him on a one-on-one fight either.

My guess is that theyíll remain one of the most powerful crews in the New World and may still be Emperors. However, they may no longer be able to protect entire Islands and probably canít rely on summoning so many independent pirate crews in the future like they did for this battle.

Itís true that the Sun and Roger pirates disbanded after their Captainsí demise. But, I wonít be surprised if Whitebeardís legacy turns out to be different and more enduring. It would be a fitting testament to the Old Manís true accomplishments.
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Old 2010-03-27, 23:05   Link #218
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I dont think Ace is dead. It would be so pointless for him too die and it would really truly ruin the main events at the end of the manga, since I suspected that Ace and Luffy will duke it out for the title of Pirate king.

I believe that Luffy will awake and see Aceīs vivi card slowly returning and yeah you get the picture.
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Old 2010-03-27, 23:21   Link #219
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Ace's Vivre card burnt into nothing after Luffy dropped it. Even if by some twist of fate (read, complete ass pull) Ace did come back to life, Luffy wouldn't notice because he doesn't have the card.
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Old 2010-03-27, 23:21   Link #220
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^While I don't necessarily believe that Ace is dead, him dying is in no way detrimental to this arc or this story, in fact it is quite a positive form of development.

As a side note, I find it a little funny that, for years, I talked quite a bit about how good and cool it would be for Ace to die in this "War", but now that it has seemingly happened, I find it hard to believe that it has actually occured. I can't help but like the irony...
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