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Old 2010-03-27, 23:29   Link #221
Wargumm1i
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Ace's Vivre card burnt into nothing after Luffy dropped it. Even if by some twist of fate (read, complete ass pull) Ace did come back to life, Luffy wouldn't notice because he doesn't have the card.
That doesnt necessary have to be the case here, what Im trying to say is that indeed the Vivre card burnt almost too nothing, but a very very small fragment where the eyes can barely see and got stuck on Luffy´s clothes as it burned almost too nothing, as you can see it fell out of his hand and burned.
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Old 2010-03-27, 23:41   Link #222
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WB is recognized by the World GOvernment (as one of the Yonkou i.e. an Emperor).

He is also recognized by the majority of the pirate 'community'. His mere declaration that Fishman Island was his territory brought peace to the island. Isn't that proof of recognition?
Um no. Soveirgnty itself means that the entity is recognized as having the right of rule of law, as in the actual legal right to govern the land its hold. That is something I doubt the world government ever has given white beard, even though he is powerful enough to control his waters. I don't think the world government ever said that white beard legally has control over the water he has.

To put it very simply anyone who has extensively traveled and lived in the third world will recognize this, majority of the third world (not all) especially poorer the country is the government rarely has the resources (financially) to manage and properly rule the entire region. In many states in africa, often the government is not recognized by much of the population who lives there, and tribal regions supercede government authority. In countries with high level of inequality (economic) and high gini coeffecient often the rich control key resources that makes it impossible for the government to regulate the actions of a few individuals, Laos, Lebanon (1990s the oligarchs in russia), without facing dire consequences (capital flight, economic collapse, basically the country becomes economically dependent on a few individuals).


Whitebeard, Shanks, Dragon are examples of people that the world government does not have the actual resources to fully regulate, hence they have high degrees of autonomy. The government of course recgonize they are to powerful to regulate and recognizes them as powerful of the pirates.


I know I'm raining on your parade a bit, but really those of you willing to carry the argument white beard I really am amazed. Stay in school kids.
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Old 2010-03-28, 01:22   Link #223
Wargumm1i
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I have a question, is there a release for One Piece, Naruto and Bleach next week?.
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Old 2010-03-28, 01:53   Link #224
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Originally Posted by ashesatdusk View Post
Um no. Soveirgnty itself means that the entity is recognized as having the right of rule of law, as in the actual legal right to govern the land its hold. That is something I doubt the world government ever has given white beard, even though he is powerful enough to control his waters. I don't think the world government ever said that white beard legally has control over the water he has.
He was called the "King of the Sea", so that's recognition enough .

Seriously, though, the Marines had to call in 100,000 troops, all the Admirals, many Vice-Admirals, the Supreme Commander himself, and all the Shichibukai just to battle one pirate crew and a few of his allies. So, no matter how any would wish to quibble, this was no mere battle, this was a full scale war. Hell, you can even claim that it was a war constructed to dispose of a dictator (Whitebeard) and return the rightful rule of the seas to the WG.
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Old 2010-03-28, 02:41   Link #225
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And yet imagine if Shanks and whoever arrived earlier. Marines would have gotten owned.
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Old 2010-03-28, 04:31   Link #226
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He was called the "King of the Sea", so that's recognition enough

Gol D. Roger was the pirate king and white beard was king of the sea. Which means that Gol D. Roger was the king of white beard, which means white beard is like a province or a state in Gol D. Rogers nation, which means it doesn't have the right to declare war, just like alabama doesn't.

Quote:
though, the Marines had to call in 100,000 troops, all the Admirals, many Vice-Admirals, the Supreme Commander himself, and all the Shichibukai just to battle one pirate crew and a few of his allies.
You know 99,985 people the World Government called was just cannon fodder.

The only people that mattered where the 6 ShichiBukai, the 4 Admirals, Garp, Coby, Smoker, and Smoker's side kick whose name I can't spell, and then the one guy I'm sure I'm forgetting.


Quote:
So, no matter how any would wish to quibble, this was no mere battle, this was a full scale war.
A "war" that lasted a total of two hours in universe at the most. (yes I'm aware that the shortest war on record lasted less than that). Really in many smaller wars 100,000 people die. In the large ones millions.



Quote:
Hell, you can even claim that it was a war constructed to dispose of a dictator (Whitebeard) and return the rightful rule of the seas to the WG.
Again if the rightful rule of the sea belongs to the world government, that is admission that white beard is not a soveirgn entity, and there fore this is not a war. This is again putting the Mafia leader back in place. The world government wouldn't have disappeared if white-beard won this war. The worst case scenario is that they lost marineford, I doubt any of their real officers would have been put out of commission.
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Old 2010-03-28, 04:42   Link #227
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Originally Posted by Wargumm1i View Post
I have a question, is there a release for One Piece, Naruto and Bleach next week?.
Yes, but expect a lot of April fools spoilers. They shoudn't get posted here anyway, but if the usual spoiler providers decide to joke, there's no way to tell what's real or not.
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Old 2010-03-28, 06:31   Link #228
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Originally Posted by ashesatdusk
-snip-
you keep saying that this was not a war due to the fact that whitebeard is not a recognized nation...

First off, the idea of international law, the rights of countries, recognition and all that other jazz are modern concepts. War however is a concept that has existed since ancient times. There were no rules for war back in ancient times... if you wanted to have a war, all you needed was to have two sides duke it out

Second of all, you're idea that you need to be a soverign nation to start a "war" has obvious exceptions... take for instance a revolution, which is a type of WAR. In this type of WAR, only ONE side is a recognized nation with government and such; the other side however has no gov't, and has no recognition as a nation... yet win or loose that conflict will be known as a WAR.

really the ONLY argument for not calling this a war was due to how short it was... but then there have been shorter conflicts that were called "wars"... not to mention that even if it was just one battle, it is a battle of such magnitude that it will shake the foundations of the entire world (literally)... so while it may have been a very breif armed conflict, it's level of impotrance and effect is as grand as that of a traditional war.
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Old 2010-03-28, 09:17   Link #229
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Can anyone give me a clue where is ace's body right now? I
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Old 2010-03-28, 09:21   Link #230
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Originally Posted by nicepace View Post
Can anyone give me a clue where is ace's body right now? I
Well, someone draped a blanket on his body in 576 (page 6). Not sure it's been seen since then.
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Old 2010-03-28, 10:12   Link #231
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@ashesatdusk

Was there a formal declaration of war? No (actually, the announcement of Ace's execution was clearly used to egg Whitebeard on, and that could be seen as an informal declaration...but that is stretching it a bit), on that point (which is the point you kept trying to make, but you were doing it quite badly) you are correct. But, that doesn't stop this fictional fiasco from being a war. Specifically, by the letter of the law, the American Civil War, any Revolutionary War, the current Iraq and Afghanistan wars, the Korean, Vietnam, Bosnian, etc War, and so many other non-formal declaration of war military engagements are not considered Wars in the legal sense, but all are obviously wars. Any significant military engagement that results in heavy loss of personal can be called a war...

I'm just going to stop there (mostly because this conversation is clearly pointless). Look up war in a dictionary or encyclopedia some time, or even on Wikipedia, you will quickly learn that your exactest definition based only on legal formalities is not the actual definition of war, or at least only one definition of war.
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Old 2010-03-28, 11:21   Link #232
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Originally Posted by Wargumm1i View Post
I dont think Ace is dead. It would be so pointless for him too die and it would really truly ruin the main events at the end of the manga, since I suspected that Ace and Luffy will duke it out for the title of Pirate king.

I believe that Luffy will awake and see Ace´s vivi card slowly returning and yeah you get the picture.


While I admit that I'm still slightly skeptical about Ace's death myself, I've already stated in the past why his death would work wonders for Luffy's character development. Chiefly, that it would make him less naive and more wary of the kind of dangers he'll encounter in the Grand Line. Also, I don't think it would make sense for Ace and Luffy to fight for the title of king since Ace made it pretty clear from the beginning that he had no intention of rising to the top (he even tells Luffy right before his death that he had no interest in fame).....



Heh, the vivrecard comment reminds me of something I said a while back about the possibility of Ace surviving if there were even one molecule of the card remaining. Even so, it fluttered away from Luffy and it would be pretty hard to locate on a wrecked island that will potentially sink to the ocean's depths.
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Old 2010-03-28, 11:32   Link #233
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For everyone who is fighter about whether this is a war or not, do we know if this is the ONLY battle that will take place. No we don't. Shanks came to put an end to the war, which probably would continue in other areas of the ocean. Maybe it will continue, it is all up to Oda.
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Old 2010-03-28, 11:58   Link #234
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I do think that Ace is dead, but I also think the power of the Mera Mera no Mi will live on. Maybe it will be incorporated into a new Ace Pacifista or maybe Luffy will get it.

Luffy's body was heavily damaged. I'm just wondering what kind of "surgery" Law will perform on Luffy to save his life and whether it will give him a powerup at the same time.
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Old 2010-03-28, 12:28   Link #235
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^Law will feed him meat ... (I was tempted to say "Law will give him a meat injection", but that is a little more perverted that I wished to go...)
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Old 2010-03-28, 12:51   Link #236
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Originally Posted by Wrath88 View Post
Perhaps its because the Marines go around reacting to trouble, etc, a rather lazy-ass bunch, and so they don't find DFs. But those who do, eat them, become strong, rise up in the ranks, get relied on more, become even stronger, and so on. (Non-DF like Garp, Coby and Helmeppo are exceptions, I suppose)
Actually there's a simple reason why only high ranking officers get Devil Fruits.

In a military system, you don't keep your findings to yourself. Lets say you find a stash of perfectly fine weapons in the enemy's hideout, you don't start grabbing the weapons and keep it for yourself. You will need to report the findings and collect them all to be kept in some armoury or warehouse.

The Marines could have found lots of Devil Fruits, which they must report and be kept in a safe place, or for someone like Vegapunk to research on. After processing the Fruits, maybe high ranking officers will be offered the Fruits as rewards for accomplishments. You don't just eat the fruits as you like, you must be given the permission to eat them. And only with the appropriate rank and accomplishments, you can have the permission.

Anyway I wonder if Shanks will be putting on the Strawhat once again. And will he return it to Luffy, putting it on his head the same way as how it all started. Maybe Luffy at that time could be extremely depressed and demoralised, but when Shanks puts on the Strawhat, he finds himself returning to a starting point and ready to set out for the New World. A meeting with Shanks will very likely give Luffy a great boost.

EDIT: seems like the quoted post was deleted.
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Old 2010-03-28, 12:59   Link #237
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Anybody that finds a DF and doesn't immediately eat it doesn't deserve the power.
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Old 2010-03-28, 13:28   Link #238
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In a military system, if you act on your own impulse, you'll be punished or kicked out.

If anyone actually ate a Devil Fruit without permission in the Marines, they'll probably be put into jail as well. They probably won't even be kicked out because they may become pirates.

Devil Fruits are a form of weapon and power, I'm sure they won't let anyone possess such dangerous abilities easily.
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Old 2010-03-28, 14:27   Link #239
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Quote:
Can anyone give me a clue where is ace's body right now?
Its in my closet. but seriously I think we've all wondered that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
you keep saying that this was not a war due to the fact that whitebeard is not a recognized nation...
Your misinterpreting since much of my discussion were responses to why white-beard is not a sovereign entity. I don't consider this a war not only because of lack of sovereignty but primarily the motivation of the white beard pirates, who are not fighting for any sort of political control. They really never were. They fought to recover their crew mate, started to retreat, he went off and died anyway, and they continued to retreat. Had their personal objectives and motivations been different I might be willing to acknowledge that this was a war. Alabasta in my mind can legitimately have war.



My original comment was lamenting on the fact there had been comparison earlier in this thread to major wars in human history. Wars which millions of people died, had real political motivations, and atrocities.

I'm aware of one shorter war than this, and then the 2nd shortest being the 6 day war. The 45 minute war was more of a small scale rebellion than an actual war.



Quote:
so while it may have been a very breif armed conflict, it's level of impotrance and effect is as grand as that of a traditional war.
In the world of One piece, yes but I was never denying that it did at any point. Its the single most event in the plot line, and sets the tone for a very different manga. It need not be a war to have that sort of impact in the story.


Quote:

the American Civil War, any Revolutionary War, the current Iraq and Afghanistan wars, the Korean, Vietnam, Bosnian, etc War, and so many other non-formal declaration of war military engagements are not considered Wars in the legal sense, but all are obviously wars.
Every single one of those revolutions were still fights for sovereignty.



Quote:
Any significant military engagement that results in heavy loss of personal can be called a war...
Thats exactly what I don't agree with. I don't see martial law as being war. Or millitary conflict being used to quel riot or small rebellions that are not real threats to the nations sovereignty as being war. That being said as long as you use this definition to define war, there really isn't a point in continuing a discussion on whether this is war or not, as our definitions do defer.


Quote:
Look up war in a dictionary or encyclopedia some time, or even on Wikipedia,
You speak as if these things are some sort of authoritative documents. They really are not, and wouldn't be considered at any formal setting. There is not any set singular definition of war, but you certainly can articulate war as being a concept, and thats what is done when coming up with any definition of war.


Quote:
mostly because this conversation is clearly pointless)
I agree.
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Old 2010-03-28, 15:01   Link #240
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Originally Posted by ashesatdusk View Post
Your misinterpreting since much of my discussion were responses to why white-beard is not a sovereign entity. I don't consider this a war not only because of lack of sovereignty but primarily the motivation of the white beard pirates, who are not fighting for any sort of political control. They really never were. They fought to recover their crew mate, started to retreat, he went off and died anyway, and they continued to retreat. Had their personal objectives and motivations been different I might be willing to acknowledge that this was a war. Alabasta in my mind can legitimately have war.
Ah i see,
however i do think their was a sort of change of political control at stake.
A lot of wars don't end with one side taking over the other; sometimes they end with one side just gaining more territory, or with one side loosing influence and power

First off, while whitebeard may not be recognized as a sovereign entity he still has territory under his control that the world gov't will not touch out of fear for provoking whitebeard. If whitebeard were to fall then those territories become up for grabs and the world gov't would be able to reclaim them and take back political control over those areas.
Second of all, while the whitebeard pirates came their to save Ace, they also came to show the marines what happens when you mess with the whitebeard pirates. If the whitebeard pirates were successful, it could result in the marines doing even more to steer clear of whitebeard and that in turn increases his influence in the world. Furtharmore, the influence of the world gov't as a whole would be shot and this in turn may give strength to all other pirate groups. This may not have been a goal of the whitebeard pirates but this is an effect of the war... no matter who won someone was gonna gain influence and control in the world and the other was gonna loose it... heh i do think Doflamingo put it nicely when he said that what is "justice" and what is "evil' might be determined by who wins

This is why everyone thought the war with whitebeard would be a big deal... the outcome of such a battle, unless it ended in a stalemate, would shake the the foundations of the world, throw off the balance of power, and create changes throughout the world.
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