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Old 2010-03-23, 22:12   Link #61
morbosfist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
and what message does broadcasting that the Marines are so weak that they can't even destroy one of the Emperor groups send. Let's be blunt if Shanks had allied with Whitebeard than the Marines would be completely wiped out. All the marines have done is broadcast that any Emperor can come in and lay waste to their headquarters.

Cowards like Coby are completely useless against the pirates. It's this weakness that marines like Sengoku and Garp preach that has made the world the hell hole that it is.
The marines control most of the media. They could (and have) whitewashed pretty much bad publicity that comes their way. They could spin letting the Whitebeard pirates escape into something positive.

People like Coby, Garp, and Sengoku are the few sane people in the Marines. Put Akainu in charge and the Marines would run themselves into the ground chasing pirates left and right, leaving the world even worse off.
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Old 2010-03-23, 22:20   Link #62
Charred Knight
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None of the Marines shown is a good Admiral. As I already stated the things necessary to make a good soldier and a good admiral are two different things. While Akainu is a great soldier, he can't lead anyone into battle,, and pretty much just went off on his own, same thing for the other two Admirals and even Sengoku.

The Marines are poorly trained, I don't think anyone can deny that, and that responisbility falls on Sengoku.
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Old 2010-03-23, 22:40   Link #63
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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So Shanks has come along for the ride, I see. Blackbeard should see to it that he scars Shanks over his other eye .
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Old 2010-03-23, 22:57   Link #64
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I wasn't expecting Shanks. With Ivankov breaking out of Impel Down, Marine Headquarters in ruins, and Luffy on the verge of death, I was expecting Dragon to show up.

I wonder what happened to Kaidou. I guess he was defeated by Shanks.
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Old 2010-03-23, 23:59   Link #65
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It's just a skirmish between them two, not an actual fight. Kaidou probably lost interest or saw no more point in the fight, so he left.
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Old 2010-03-24, 00:10   Link #66
james0246
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^Better yet, Kaidou will have also decided to come, and he will proceed to own that Goth Geek Moria so hard that Moria's parents will roll in their graves as they feel their son's intense failure...
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Old 2010-03-24, 01:32   Link #67
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yay I finally guessed something right. It wouldn't be to late for dragon to show up either. That'll probably be 3 or 4 chapters from now. (Lets have a party while were at it).
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Old 2010-03-24, 01:39   Link #68
morbosfist
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This war is already too epic as is. If Dragon shows up, we'll all get heart attacks and Oda will be minus one audience.

I expect, when next we see Dragon, he'll probably be meeting with Robin.
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Old 2010-03-24, 01:40   Link #69
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The leaders are incompetent hedonist, while the Admirals are powerful they are also completely unfit to lead, the Marines are poorly trained and full of incompetent cowards like Coby.
I think you're mixing up morality with cowardice.
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Old 2010-03-24, 02:43   Link #70
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One word,

SHANKS!!!!!!!!



Quote:
Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
Quote:
The leaders are incompetent hedonist, while the Admirals are powerful they are also completely unfit to lead, the Marines are poorly trained and full of incompetent cowards like Coby.
I think you're mixing up morality with cowardice.

While we disagree on other issues, paradox13, I completely agree with you on this.

Hell, even our military [U.S.] has a code where soldiers can disobey orders that were unjust and violates Uniform Code of Military Justice.
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Old 2010-03-24, 03:14   Link #71
Charred Knight
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Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
I think you're mixing up morality with cowardice.
What are you talking about? How is killing a retreating enemy with low morale immoral?

THIS IS WAR NOT A TEAPARTY!

If you don't want to kill people why the hell would you become a marine?

By destroying the enemy know, you can end the war and prevent anymore casualities, can you imagine how many lives could have been saved if the Union Generals where as bold as the confederate Generals. If Mcclellan had pushed Lee's army after Antiem than the war would have been over at least two years earlier.
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Old 2010-03-24, 04:42   Link #72
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i think u still got to look at the situation, even though WB crew is making a retreat now, tt is because it is under the order of WB. if they are forced into a corner, i believe they will put up one hell of a good fight and take most of marine down with them. they have nothing to lose already with their pops already gone. the marines on the other hand still got families and this difference in determination will change the outcome.

i agree with coby that they shld know when to stop. if their casualties are low, by all means go chase after WB crew. but now they are like fighting on 2 fronts, WB crew and BB crew. history has told us tt fighting on 2 fronts are pure suicidal, hitler germany lost because he is crazy enough to try to attack soviet union and opening 2 fronts
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Old 2010-03-24, 05:03   Link #73
Charred Knight
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Originally Posted by ChaosPaladin View Post
i think u still got to look at the situation, even though WB crew is making a retreat now, tt is because it is under the order of WB. if they are forced into a corner, i believe they will put up one hell of a good fight and take most of marine down with them. they have nothing to lose already with their pops already gone. the marines on the other hand still got families and this difference in determination will change the outcome.

i agree with coby that they shld know when to stop. if their casualties are low, by all means go chase after WB crew. but now they are like fighting on 2 fronts, WB crew and BB crew. history has told us tt fighting on 2 fronts are pure suicidal, hitler germany lost because he is crazy enough to try to attack soviet union and opening 2 fronts
Possibly, but frankly I don't see that, I don't see them willing to fight to the death as right now most of the concern is with escaping. Personally I think what Aokiji was stupid, he should open a small path for them to escape and let the Whitebeards have it when they do try to escape. Then chase down the remaining survivors.

I could understand it if Coby was speaking from a strategic point of view, but his not, his making a speech based primarly on the fact that "Whitebeard Pirates = Good, Marines = Bad" and why would he join the Marines if he thought like that. When people are accusing the marines of war crimes for killing enemy combatants than you need to look at the world in a different view.

Personally my biggest worries is that Oda is going to simply write the story as "Pirates = Good, Marines = Bad" when he has made several pirates evil like Arlong and Crocodile, so that ship has sailed 50 volumes ago.
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Old 2010-03-24, 05:42   Link #74
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Anyone else feels like coby could become the latest strawhat ? I mean, almost getting magma-owned can't really be good for one's marine reputation, nor getting saved by shanks ^^ And i think i read somewhere that the new strawhat would be a former enemy, which could be coby the ex-marine
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Old 2010-03-24, 05:43   Link #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
Possibly, but frankly I don't see that, I don't see them willing to fight to the death as right now most of the concern is with escaping. Personally I think what Aokiji was stupid, he should open a small path for them to escape and let the Whitebeards have it when they do try to escape. Then chase down the remaining survivors.

I could understand it if Coby was speaking from a strategic point of view, but his not, his making a speech based primarly on the fact that "Whitebeard Pirates = Good, Marines = Bad" and why would he join the Marines if he thought like that. When people are accusing the marines of war crimes for killing enemy combatants than you need to look at the world in a different view.

Personally my biggest worries is that Oda is going to simply write the story as "Pirates = Good, Marines = Bad" when he has made several pirates evil like Arlong and Crocodile, so that ship has sailed 50 volumes ago.
Actually if you look closer into the story, there was never been "Pirates = good, Marines = bad". We got Mariners who have strong sense of justice like Smoker Garp and Coby, Mariners who are good in heart but confused like Aokiji and Hina, Mariners who are extremist like Sengoku and Akainu.

The same can be said for pirates, some of them pillage and destroy, some of them only do it for adventure and some are peacekeeping.

The whole thing is a bag full with mixed interests. There is no black and white. its just a big gray area.
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Old 2010-03-24, 07:43   Link #76
Charred Knight
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Actually if you look closer into the story, there was never been "Pirates = good, Marines = bad". We got Mariners who have strong sense of justice like Smoker Garp and Coby, Mariners who are good in heart but confused like Aokiji and Hina, Mariners who are extremist like Sengoku and Akainu.

The same can be said for pirates, some of them pillage and destroy, some of them only do it for adventure and some are peacekeeping.

The whole thing is a bag full with mixed interests. There is no black and white. its just a big gray area.
I know that, but I do question how Oda is going to handle the story, since he just can't have the Marines fail because they are the main source of people who protect the world from pirates.

After the Impel Down arc which protrayed the Jailers as strict but necessary and had Luffy and friends freeing Crocodile, possibly the biggest monster outside of the Rosewald family. We then follow it with the Whitebeard War arc where the Marines are protrayed as evil for trying to get rid of a major rival., and the marines that are protrayed as noble are the ones who don't want to finish off the pirates because "they only wanted to kill Ace and Whitebeard" which while certainly helpful is not going to get rid of the actual crew. Then we get the treatment of Crocodile (which I hate) in which his previous characterization is thrown out and instead of a conniving bastard who should be fighting for himself, he comes off as petty and hating the marines for no apparent reason.
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Old 2010-03-24, 08:32   Link #77
Bonta Kun
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
I know that, but I do question how Oda is going to handle the story, since he just can't have the Marines fail because they are the main source of people who protect the world from pirates.

After the Impel Down arc which protrayed the Jailers as strict but necessary and had Luffy and friends freeing Crocodile, possibly the biggest monster outside of the Rosewald family. We then follow it with the Whitebeard War arc where the Marines are protrayed as evil for trying to get rid of a major rival., and the marines that are protrayed as noble are the ones who don't want to finish off the pirates because "they only wanted to kill Ace and Whitebeard" which while certainly helpful is not going to get rid of the actual crew. Then we get the treatment of Crocodile (which I hate) in which his previous characterization is thrown out and instead of a conniving bastard who should be fighting for himself, he comes off as petty and hating the marines for no apparent reason.
eh I may be mistaken here but don't all pirates hate the marines just cause they are marines?
besides I do think Crocodile does have a good reason, just we're not told it yet.
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Old 2010-03-24, 08:32   Link #78
Orath
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
I know that, but I do question how Oda is going to handle the story, since he just can't have the Marines fail because they are the main source of people who protect the world from pirates.

After the Impel Down arc which protrayed the Jailers as strict but necessary and had Luffy and friends freeing Crocodile, possibly the biggest monster outside of the Rosewald family. We then follow it with the Whitebeard War arc where the Marines are protrayed as evil for trying to get rid of a major rival., and the marines that are protrayed as noble are the ones who don't want to finish off the pirates because "they only wanted to kill Ace and Whitebeard" which while certainly helpful is not going to get rid of the actual crew. Then we get the treatment of Crocodile (which I hate) in which his previous characterization is thrown out and instead of a conniving bastard who should be fighting for himself, he comes off as petty and hating the marines for no apparent reason.
If we take Marines as a faction that pursuing their own agenda, then I agree with your points of the recent characterization, but they are not, the ones with agenda are the WG. Add to that, Marines are adhering to the justice approved by the WG and nothing more. Most of the marine force don't know they are serving as the protectors of WG agenda, and that the "peoples protectors" is just a front propaganda facade.

Going back to the Ohara incident, and how different mariners in the buster call followed their own code of justice; Saul deserting the marines, Aokiji in his confusion letting Robin escape, to Akainu terrorizing extreme of getting rid of anyone with a slight probability of exposing the true history.

What I think Oda is trying to convey through the run of One Piece so far, is the message of "the winner/stronger" dictates whats right and wrong, whats justice and whats evil, whats in the benefit of people and whats not. And the ultimate is, as an individual never trust the world how it appears, dig for the truth and defend it.

kind of an off topic, and might be for only me personally, I some what relate with that statement, (or Oda has another and this is the way i understood it ). In our real world, there is nothing that guarantee our last 2010 years of history is accurate especially the earlier 300 years. There have been several studies showing the history have been rewritten several times when ever a new empire ascended to being the big player in the world stage. So there is not a single "real" prove or evidence that what values our ancestors were living by were just and correct. Or on the "extreme" other hand, what around 3 billion people nowadays believe in and go by, is true and just.

I might be overestimating Oda
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Old 2010-03-24, 08:40   Link #79
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Originally Posted by Bonta Kun View Post
eh I may be mistaken here but don't all pirates hate the marines just cause they are marines?
besides I do think Crocodile does have a good reason, just we're not told it yet.

lets see:
1- he was stripped of Shichibukai title and status.
2- he was jailed and put to death-row in ID.
3- he was denied the chance of taking whitebeard head, and that's because of marines meddling.
4- he needs new allies to survive after the war, and marines are defiantly aren't his allies.

so those are enough reasons that we already know or can gather from the story so far. A former Shichibukai, a Lv6 ID escapee and a participant in the Marineford war. With out allies in the new world, he can't enjoy his cigar anymore. What is better than the new rising star that got whitebeard approval to be used for his survival.
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Old 2010-03-24, 08:45   Link #80
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Then we get the treatment of Crocodile (which I hate) in which his previous characterization is thrown out and instead of a conniving bastard who should be fighting for himself, he comes off as petty and hating the marines for no apparent reason.
Crocodile is a pirate, and the marines are a big nuisance to pirates. It's understandable he would hate them. Now that he's been stripped of his warlord title and escaped Impel Down, he's once again considered a threat to the WG. It only works in his favor if he temporarily allies himself with the Whitebeard pirates and the escaped convicts of Impel Down, because then he only has one enemy to worry about: the marines.
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