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Old 2010-03-24, 10:33   Link #81
John D.
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
Then we get the treatment of Crocodile (which I hate) in which his previous characterization is thrown out and instead of a conniving bastard who should be fighting for himself, he comes off as petty and hating the marines for no apparent reason.
Crocodile is a pirate, and an immoral man whose main drive seems to be for personal gain (power, wealth etc; greed). He was a Shichibukai before, but even then I certainly didn't see him loyal to the marines and the WG and now when he has no reason to hold back, decieve or conceal his real intentions there is no reason for him not to go against the marines.
Crocodile would contrive on disorder, easier for the strong to gain power (and wealth) if there is no strong central organization (i.e. the Marines/WG) that keeps order. It is well within Crocodiles ruthless, cynical and remorsless character boundries to side with the pirates against the marines.

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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
People like Coby, Garp, and Sengoku are the few sane people in the Marines.
I saw several mention Sengoku together with Garp and Coby as if they were of similar mentality regarding morals and justice - that is far wrong, Sengoku is Akainu Senior not Coby Senior.

Edit: Coby is not a coward Charred Knight, his small speech face-to-face against Akainu is one of the most courageous displays in the whole One Piece (he was terrified of Akainu when he saw him eliminate deserters, takes real guts to attempt to talk Akainu straight then).
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Old 2010-03-24, 10:35   Link #82
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OP is indeed epic.

But after perusing a few replies to recent OP chapters compared to Bleach and Naruto chapters (which have has their Epic moments too), you guys always praising the Epicness but the Bleach & Naruto readers stating Kubo/Kishu sucks, plotkai, boring etc?

Any insight into why?

BTW, not bashing any of these manga, love them all.
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Old 2010-03-24, 10:51   Link #83
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Oda-sensei has a deep purse of gold and is open handed on the forums....
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Old 2010-03-24, 10:59   Link #84
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Well those series are much more disappointing. At least Naruto is repeating itself and it is way too long that its story's strength would allow and bleach.. it's repeating too and sometimes too ridiculous and complicated.

Oda has created much more elastic world than Bleach and Naruto, it is able carry more crazier stuff and Oda is able to control much bigger group of interesting characters than Bleach and Naruto. OP is also very well suited for arcs, since it can create mini-worlds inside op-world, Changing keeps OP interesting while Naruto's surroundings stays the shame, Sakura is always useless and Sasuke keeps on whining. Same "school bullying" theme and childhood grudge is used over and over again. Yeah.. and OP doesn't do "kill&revive"-tricks.

Maybe Naruto and Bleach would work better if they would been made more shorter and more compact. They have their moments, but Oda is last one who still got the game in his hands, and this after 579 chapters. Great!
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Old 2010-03-24, 13:13   Link #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John D. View Post


I saw several mention Sengoku together with Garp and Coby as if they were of similar mentality regarding morals and justice - that is far wrong, Sengoku is Akainu Senior not Coby Senior.

Edit: Coby is not a coward Charred Knight, his small speech face-to-face against Akainu is one of the most courageous displays in the whole One Piece (he was terrified of Akainu when he saw him eliminate deserters, takes real guts to attempt to talk Akainu straight then).
except Akainu is right. This is war, just because you kill the enemy general doesn't you pack up and go home. You continue the army and kill as of the enemy as you can. The marines currently have the WB pirates on the ropes. It is time to finish them not pack up and go home.

Coby needs to find another line of work, He is not suited to be in the military.
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Old 2010-03-24, 13:13   Link #86
morbosfist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John D. View Post
I saw several mention Sengoku together with Garp and Coby as if they were of similar mentality regarding morals and justice - that is far wrong, Sengoku is Akainu Senior not Coby Senior.
I'd say he's more a mix of both. He's got the ruthlessness of Akainu but it's at least tempered by a small amount of compassion and common sense. If he weren't so busy messing with Blackbeard he might realize how bad their losses are. At the very least, he is at least competent as a leader.
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Old 2010-03-24, 14:32   Link #87
ZeroForever
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Xellos -
in the shown terms of the moral situation Akainu is evil. If you've already won the war and now you have the choice between saving your injured/dying friends or ignoring said friends (aka just letting him die) just to kill some more enemies. Choosing to let your friends die just to sate your 'justice' realistically bloodlust would easily put you modern societies morally 'evil' zone. Yes you could do the end justifies the means spiel, but when it's your only rebuttal is that it's means your already in the grey zone (not even getting into executing your own people that disagree with you... RL examples of that are dictators).
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Old 2010-03-24, 14:33   Link #88
AddiKtioNn-BlaCk
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Hell I would like for Akainu to become Fleet Admiral... the marines would be stronger and more brutal towards pirates. Maybe then they wouldn't be so weak as to be overwhelmed by 2 Yonkou.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orath View Post
Actually if you look closer into the story, there was never been "Pirates = good, Marines = bad". We got Mariners who have strong sense of justice like Smoker Garp and Coby, Mariners who are good in heart but confused like Aokiji and Hina, Mariners who are extremist like Sengoku and Akainu.

The same can be said for pirates, some of them pillage and destroy, some of them only do it for adventure and some are peacekeeping.

The whole thing is a bag full with mixed interests. There is no black and white. its just a big gray area.
I agree. I don't think Aokiji is confused, a loyal marine follows orders.
He may be conflicted about some of his orders, but since he's a Admiral he can get away with certain things. But generally, he puts personal feelings aside and completes the mission/task at hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
except Akainu is right. This is war, just because you kill the enemy general doesn't you pack up and go home. You continue the army and kill as of the enemy as you can. The marines currently have the WB pirates on the ropes. It is time to finish them not pack up and go home.

Coby needs to find another line of work, He is not suited to be in the military.
My thoughts exactly. You don't give the enemy a chance to leave a regroup. You finish them off. Akainu is right in trying to finish off every single Pirate. Plus its being televised too, so now the whole world is seeing. The World Government would love to televised something like them massacring all the Pirates as a warning to all pirates of the Seas.

I can Coby turning into the Suzaku (from Code Geass of One Piece), trying to change the Marines from the inside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroForever View Post
Xellos -
in the shown terms of the moral situation Akainu is evil. If you've already won the war and now you have the choice between saving your injured/dying friends or ignoring said friends (aka just letting him die) just to kill some more enemies. Choosing to let your friends die just to sate your 'justice' realistically bloodlust would easily put you modern societies morally 'evil' zone. Yes you could do the end justifies the means spiel, but when it's your only rebuttal is that it's means your already in the grey zone (not even getting into executing your own people that disagree with you... RL examples of that are dictators).
In War, morals go out the window, War is about survival of the fittest. And how do you survive (without running away)??? Killing your enemy. In cases like these, the Mission takes priority, and when you have the chance to crush and get rid of the Strongest Crew in the World, you do it.

And we all know how Akainu is, he only respects the Loyal and the Strong.

And that's exactly how it works in the Real World. If you failed to accomplish an important mission, you think you Superiors are going to pat you on the back because you was trying to save a friend??? I'm guessing no.
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Old 2010-03-24, 14:51   Link #89
John D.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
except Akainu is right. This is war, just because you kill the enemy general doesn't you pack up and go home. You continue the army and kill as of the enemy as you can. The marines currently have the WB pirates on the ropes. It is time to finish them not pack up and go home.
It's irrelevant whether Akainu is wrong or not. Coby believes in compassion and mercy and he stood up for his principals in the face of armageddon (Akainu). It was a very brave act no matter if he is right or wrong.

And I deem Coby's word to hold some truth to them, because he holds closer to what the ambition and values of the marines should be instead of blindly following order.
But you are also right that this is a war, and the pirates are the enemy and the focus should be to defeat them. But you are also wrong, because it's not always the wise coarse to pursue an enemy force in retreat when you have slain their commander (but that depends upon the situation and the shape of your own and opponents forces). In this instance, they also have Blackbeard (and crew) running rampage, destroying the island that Akainu told Whitebeard he would protect.

Akainu is not evil, but he is as hard a man as they come in OPverse and is hell-bent on following WG's orders without question or hesitation. ^His belief of justice should be called Absolute Faith (in WG)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
Coby needs to find another line of work, He is not suited to be in the military.
The Marines in One Piece is a little different then U.S. marines, and I personally think that Coby's (naive but sound) views should be welcome to them because they need them in order to remember what exactly they are fighting for (not to follow orders, but to protect the people).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaelan View Post
Anyone else feels like coby could become the latest strawhat ?
I think that Coby will be the small pebble in the pond that will instigate a change within the Marines as the story progress. And when Luffy has become the Pirate King and shouldered the duty of the knowledge of the Void Century, they will work together to bring down the World Governant


Quote:
Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
If you don't want to kill people why the hell would you become a marine?
That is utterly absurd. A man who wants to join the marines simple to get an oppurtnity to kill people, a man who wants to kill people, should be locked up (like Shiryuu indeed was, and he "only" killed prisoners...). If that requirement was enforced, there would be only marines such as Lucci left and even Akainu would be forced to go on an extended vacation.
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Old 2010-03-24, 14:56   Link #90
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Just read the chapter, and boy what a chapter it was!! Coby was awesome, he was crying his eyes out but he had more balls then anyone there. Even Garp was WTFing in shock.
Law bugged out with Luffy quite quickly but given the situation that was probably the smart thing to do.
Shanks entering was classic, can't wait to see his interactions with Buggy, Mihawk and Blackbeard. Poor Luffy, he'll have to wait a while to get his hat back. Shanks better kick some serious ass in the next couple chapters, we've been waiting years for this.
I wonder though since everyone who was watching the broadcast at Shabondy had to run for it will Shanks appearance onwards be reported?

God I can't believe we have to wait another week to see what happens!! This is painful.
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Old 2010-03-24, 15:19   Link #91
'Pryde
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The good marines

Smoker
Tashigi
Coby

Imagine if these three were the new generation admirals with helmeppo as the new chief admiral!!!! lol jk
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Old 2010-03-24, 15:24   Link #92
morbosfist
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Coby didn't knock anyone out, so it probably wasn't Haki. He was just so determined that everyone had to hear him.
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Old 2010-03-24, 15:29   Link #93
Crimson Reaper
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Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
Did Coby use some sort of Haki?
I mean how can it be expained, that the whole battlefield stopped for a minute just to listen to someone who doesn't even have a megaphone.
And then there was this strange scene with him talking about voices in his head.
His tears give his vocal cords super strength....
Nah but really he just shouted and because what he said was so out of place people stopped.

On another note, surprised we weren't shown some Shikibukai reactions. Hancock must be freaking out about Luffy right now. Oh well next week I suppose.
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Old 2010-03-24, 15:32   Link #94
orangejuicetang
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
except Akainu is right. This is war, just because you kill the enemy general doesn't you pack up and go home. You continue the army and kill as of the enemy as you can. The marines currently have the WB pirates on the ropes. It is time to finish them not pack up and go home.

Coby needs to find another line of work, He is not suited to be in the military.
Except, it's not that they have them on the ropes, so much that they are only retreating out of respect for Whitebeard's last order. However, if cornered, they may decide to fight back instead of retreating, and may cause even more casualties to the marine ala the saying about 'a cornered rat is the most dangerous'. And the Marines can't afford to lose anymore of their forces than they already have. They've already lost a huge chunk of their forces taking down Whitebeard and Ace, and there's still 3 more Yonkou out there (well 2 now since Shanks is here). If they lose another huge chunk of their forces, do you think the other Yonkou will just stay still and not take advantage of the Marine's current weakness. Hell, in this case it's even more imperative that they regroup since as mentioned, Whitebeard's last words will likely spark another age of pirates. If they continue to pursue, while they might succeed in destroying the remnants, they will be even more unprepared for the 'new age'.
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Old 2010-03-24, 15:34   Link #95
John D.
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I just read the chapter as well...

Damn, but Coby was so incredible amazing, his display of courage unmatched as he was so terrified that he actually feinted after he had said his words and Akainu struck at him. His belief that the war was unnecessary prolonged and bloodthirsty was also voiced by Smoker, a battle-hardened veteran. But I just have to say I loved Akainu's display of righteous fury as he roared at the pirates that they were evil and should be purged...

Coby was speaking of a single voice that disappeared in his heed...makes me think of Aisa's mantra.

Buggy was awesome, he finally had his moment of bravery when he defied Kizuro beside him and threw Luffy and Jimbei to Trafalgar Law.
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Old 2010-03-24, 15:42   Link #96
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
Except, it's not that they have them on the ropes, so much that they are only retreating out of respect for Whitebeard's last order. However, if cornered, they may decide to fight back instead of retreating, and may cause even more casualties to the marine ala the saying about 'a cornered rat is the most dangerous'. And the Marines can't afford to lose anymore of their forces than they already have. They've already lost a huge chunk of their forces taking down Whitebeard and Ace, and there's still 3 more Yonkou out there (well 2 now since Shanks is here). If they lose another huge chunk of their forces, do you think the other Yonkou will just stay still and not take advantage of the Marine's current weakness. Hell, in this case it's even more imperative that they regroup since as mentioned, Whitebeard's last words will likely spark another age of pirates. If they continue to pursue, while they might succeed in destroying the remnants, they will be even more unprepared for the 'new age'.
the marnies lost big chunk of grunts, easily replaceable. the main force of admirals and vice admirals are still intact.
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Old 2010-03-24, 15:45   Link #97
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Why? Why is One Piece so damn good at this moment? Why every chapter of this arc manages to raise the bar even higher?

I did not read spoilers this week so I had no idea what was going to happen when I started to read chapter.

Epic, Odawesome, Legendary, all those words could descripe latest chapter, Coby was awesome, Akainu is unstoppable and Shanks... just great.

One Piece delivered this week and hell it delivered the motherload... I read lots of mangas but One Piece is totally its own league by now and its making all those other great mangas look bad. One Piece is greatest manga or story I have ever read but I cant stop comparing other mangas to it and they just seem so mediciore now.

Coby was star with this chapter with his MANTRA ability and awesome speach, Coby you sure have come a long way from that ultra annoying whiner boy with no balls.

Akainu is like a landslide, he is roaring with fury while burning one Whitebeard division commander after another, if Shanks cannot stop him then I dont know what will... I really despise Akainu but at the same time he fills me with shock and awe.

But still Shanks arrival was biggest shock of all, I had no idea that he would appear and I had to collect my jaw from the floor when that double page with Shanks placing his old trademark Strawhat to his head... so awesome.

My only concern at this point that can this arc ever be surprassed? Can even final epilogue of One Piece at Raftel island be better than this? But aslong as Oda keeps writing this then everything is possible.
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Old 2010-03-24, 15:45   Link #98
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I don't think its Haki, but just a loud crying voice, I believe his positioning in front of Akainu is what gripped people's attention and Garp shocked.
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Old 2010-03-24, 15:49   Link #99
John D.
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
the marnies lost big chunk of grunts, easily replaceable. the main force of admirals and vice admirals are still intact.
^Seems like we have an Akainu on the boards... The difference is that Coby views them as humans whereas Akainu (and his kin) views them just like you. That "big chunk of easily replaceable grunts" is (say) 50 000 dead humans with families to Coby.
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Old 2010-03-24, 15:51   Link #100
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Originally Posted by John D. View Post
Crocodile is a pirate, and an immoral man whose main drive seems to be for personal gain (power, wealth etc; greed). He was a Shichibukai before, but even then I certainly didn't see him loyal to the marines and the WG and now when he has no reason to hold back, decieve or conceal his real intentions there is no reason for him not to go against the marines.
Crocodile would contrive on disorder, easier for the strong to gain power (and wealth) if there is no strong central organization (i.e. the Marines/WG) that keeps order. It is well within Crocodiles ruthless, cynical and remorsless character boundries to side with the pirates against the marines.


I saw several mention Sengoku together with Garp and Coby as if they were of similar mentality regarding morals and justice - that is far wrong, Sengoku is Akainu Senior not Coby Senior.

Edit: Coby is not a coward Charred Knight, his small speech face-to-face against Akainu is one of the most courageous displays in the whole One Piece (he was terrified of Akainu when he saw him eliminate deserters, takes real guts to attempt to talk Akainu straight then).
Coby's not so much of a coward as an idiot. The rules of war makes it clear that losses while tragic are necessary, and if you can prevent more loses by quickly defeating an enemy than you must push on.

Oda really comes off as naive, and not understanding warfare in this chapter. Though I am suprised at the number of people who also don't understand warfare as well. I mean am I the only one whose studied history? As I already mentioned the Civil War shows us that war favors the bold. Compare MCclellan's campaign with Grant's campaigns.

As for Crocodile, my problem lies in the fact that with Impel Down Oda setup Luffy as being self centered who would be willing to let innocents be hurt if he could save his brother Ace, but the characters of Crocodile, and Buggy where all talk. Buggy was expected (though I was hoping the criminals in his crew would be used for something other than comic relief) but Crocodile just came off like a complete tool in the Whitebeard War.
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