AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Claymore

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-04-23, 09:37   Link #601
Ryus
The One Eyed King
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lurking Up Ahead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinak View Post
@Ryus. Most sailors from this era of sea fairing knew how to navigate by the stars. Sailing is dangerous. If your one and only navigator came down with scurvy, then the rest of the crew would be screwed. So the Org navigator theory is kind of weak as most of the crew would eventually realize they are going in circles.
Not true, most people until Columbus hugged the coast to travel. The Mediterranean was one of the few places where crews didn't hug the coast back then all the time, since one was surrounded by land in all directions, even then ships where lost and the routes where considered dangerous. There was very few who would rely on there deep sea navigation techniques since of the risks involved in deep seas travel. It's clear that since the island was just that, hugging the coast is how ships traveled. Star navigation isn't a required skill for that. In fact most of Columbus's crew feared he was insane for going in a straight line and talked about taking the ship, fearing they wouldn't have enough supplies to return home, most would likely welcome not traveling too far from the island, if they figured it out they where going in circles. Also most would likely just use it as an excuse to return home, not think the navigator was trying to prevent them from getting somewhere but more fearing getting to far from the island. Also being island folk the navigator could always claim he thought land away from the island must be small, since clearly if land was bigger than the island they would have found it, so he's been looking for tiny islands hence the traveling in circles.

I can personally navigate via the stars (Astronomy is a hobby of mine, I own a 12" dobsonian scope http://www.telescope.com/rsc/img/cat..._size_comp.jpg). I've even used that skill to get back to a rangers station over 10 miles away in real life. Let me say navigating via the starts over short distances isn't hard. The problem comes with distance and time... I mean I could always tell if I'm going north, east, south or west but the exact number of degrees gets a bit harder and over a months time period, not a chance in hell. One would have to double checking to notice anything odd with the course. So over a few months time period I know I'd not know exactly where I am but only generally at best, if the guy with the sextant told me we were exactly somewhere and it was in the general direction I knew we where in, I'd believe the guy. To fool crews it's all about being subtle over time... I mean you couldn't have them sail in a small circle for 3 months that would just raise a red flag, however making them go 1 degree more west every day would be less noticeable. If the navigator was really cleaver they could always use clouds on the horizon as a pretext to avoiding the worst of a storm to change course... then put them less on course.

Next off crews from the island (and Europe) would just keep the coast in sight to navigate there way around the island. It's easier than star navigation. So sure I could find my way back to the ranger station via the stars but if I had no idea where the ranger station was what good would the stars be to me? All they'd tell me is my general location without a tools like a sextant, which only the navigator would have.

If the orgs navigator had to they could always put the ship on a org navies patrol route and hope to be spotted. That way they could sink the ship and rescue him and/or replace the suspicious crew with yoma and then leave the ship and giving the yoma a free pass to the island who upon there return would claim the navigator died at sea, when really he stayed on the org navy ship.
Ryus is offline  
Old 2010-04-23, 13:10   Link #602
Vinak
Procrastinator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: United States
Age: 26
Columbus' crew would need to know basic navigation to know whether or not they are traveling in a line. anybody can look at the horizon to determine direction. Especially at dusk and dawn. They wouldn't need the stars at all. Somebody would surely notice they haven't made any progress.

Then of course we have archeological evidence of the Vikings discovering the America's ~500 years prior to Columbus. Lets not forget the colonization of Islands by non Europeans.

Besides all of that. Their are just way too many variables for that to work, Ryus. You are expecting Yoma to consume entire crews worth of humans, then have these yoma return home and impersonate these sailors for the rest of their foreseeable lives.

Yes, a yoma can perfectly impersonate a human, but can they age properly? can they reproduce? Can they even eat normal food for that matter? How suspicious do you think people would become when large swaths of their populations suddenly stopped aging properly and/or becoming sterile after sailing?

I can see the organization destroying a few ships but they certainty could not do that every time. Who is going to tell the people their is nothing out there? How do you handle exploration expeditions? The Franklin expedition is a great example of this. Both ships were lost resulting in a search for survivors that lasted for years.
__________________
Vinak is offline  
Old 2010-04-23, 13:38   Link #603
Ryus
The One Eyed King
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lurking Up Ahead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinak View Post
Columbus' crew would need to know basic navigation to know whether or not they are traveling in a line. anybody can look at the horizon to determine direction. Especially at dusk and dawn. They wouldn't need the stars at all. Somebody would surely notice they haven't made any progress.
Can you determine the exact number of degrees you are traveling just by looking at the direction? Would you notice a few changes to them over a month? I mean where talking about cooking he frog slowly (which they don't notice) not throwing him in boiling water and seeing if he notices (which he will).

Next off your acting like there planned trip was static, example go to exactly this point on the map and see if there is land. Not see if there is land to the west of us, west being an awfully big place. It's not like historically we launched 50 ships at once in a search pattern, all heading in slightly different direction. Typically it was a single ship or a small squad travelling together exploring a huge area with no real flight path.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinak View Post
Then of course we have archeological evidence of the Vikings discovering the America's ~500 years prior to Columbus. Lets not forget the colonization of Islands by non Europeans.
Your just proving my point with this... voyages have been launched in Claymore searching for more land. Yet none was found, yet we know it exists. I realize I'm speculating but your speculations implies they should have discovered land by now too. However this is not the case... is it wrong to hypothesize why?

BTW China discovered America before Columbus too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinak View Post
Besides all of that. Their are just way too many variables for that to work, Ryus. You are expecting Yoma to consume entire crews worth of humans, then have these yoma return home and impersonate these sailors for the rest of their foreseeable lives.
They can change bodies... Zaki is proof of that. The yomi inside Zaki confessed to taking over his body. So these Yoma could just move on once they arrived back on the island.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinak View Post
Yes, a yoma can perfectly impersonate a human, but can they age properly? can they reproduce? Can they even eat normal food for that matter? How suspicious do you think people would become when large swaths of their populations suddenly stopped aging properly and/or becoming sterile after sailing?
See above, they can switch bodies... and how can any of us know the answer to them aging though.

Also even if they didn't age and stayed in the same body they could just always move around the country side. Next off who's to say a Claymore doesn't say them before anyone notices.

This counter argument has more holes in it than mine.

As to whole towns disappearing... what fuss was raised over Gornal, Cynthia's home town, The entire north, or half the towns in the south? None that we know of... the people in claymore accept towns dieing off. Also who's to say that if a ship discovered land that the org wouldn't whip out the whole town before news could spread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinak View Post
I can see the organization destroying a few ships but they certainty could not do that every time. Who is going to tell the people their is nothing out there? How do you handle exploration expeditions? The Franklin expedition is a great example of this. Both ships were lost resulting in a search for survivors that lasted for years.
First off they don't have to destroy the ships that go in the wrong direction. So most ships would be safe.

They only need to do something about those that do travel in the right direction; They need to make them think they went that way when they didn't (the spy theory)... have bought off the crew (be it via a secret group of sailors that are on there payroll or with deals when they get back home (like passage for them and there family off the island and safe from yoma attacks))... replaced them (yoma crew theory)... or destroyed the ships that the above 3 plans didn't work on (org navy theory). Or else... the ship will report land back to the island, something that we know hasn't happened yet. It's that simple.
Ryus is offline  
Old 2010-04-23, 15:56   Link #604
Savannah
I poked my eyes...
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 25
Everything is far simpler than anything you guys brought up so far.

The Org simply goes and prepares a few small fleets, each apart by a couple of years, make a big event out of the start of each single ones. And since nobody knows that they are from the Org, they'll trust them, when they say that they have searched anywhere and still not found another land, especially when there have been something like 20 fleets. Not all of these fleets need to be Org ones, there could be some other parties and all of them luckily sailed in directions leading away from the mainland, or those that didn't, were simply sunk.

So what we got are plenty of expeditions in all directions, nobody knows that most of them were from the Organisation, nobody knows that some didn't actually shipwreck but were probably destroyed by the Org and nobody knows that the Org has other ships doing the transport business.
__________________
Blaa Blaa Goes Laa Dee Dah

When push comes to shove, that's when friction produces heat.

Sry for me bad English, ain't be me main tongue^^
Savannah is offline  
Old 2010-04-23, 16:30   Link #605
Rennir
Requiem of Dreams
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Beneath the prodigious sky...
Or instead of going to all that trouble, the organization just has to control the means of travel. What I'm saying is that in the beginning, when the island was first established, they came in big, sturdy, and well prepared ships. If they came in 10-20 of those large sized ships(think huge), after they arrived, the org could just take those ships or something. And then the ships that were used for the expeditions were later built by the islands inhabitants but they weren't as good as the original ones used to get to the island. Thus, using worse ships could make it a lot harder to find the mainland, especially if they can't go against strong tides or something. Oh and do the explorers survive and come back? Or do they just disappear and people assume they didn't find anything and died?
________
Religious talk

Last edited by Rennir; 2011-04-19 at 05:09.
Rennir is offline  
Old 2010-04-23, 16:33   Link #606
revan5
Dark Lord of Animesuki
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The Kingdom of Orange...you can't beat the Cuse, in basketball or snowfall!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rennir View Post
Or instead of going to all that trouble, the organization just has to control the means of travel. What I'm saying is that in the beginning, when the island was first established, they came in big, sturdy, and well prepared ships. If they came in 10-20 of those large sized ships(think huge), after they arrived, the org could just take those ships or something. And then the ships that were used for the expeditions were later built by the islands inhabitants but they weren't as good as the original ones used to get to the island. Thus, using worse ships could make it a lot harder to find the mainland, especially if they can't go against strong tides or something. Oh and do the explorers survive and come back? Or do they just disappear and people assume they didn't find anything and died?
Given what we know of the Organization, wouldn't it be more likely they found a relatively sparsely defended island and then settled on it via ships while hiding their outsider status from the islanders? What I'm saying is that civilization on the island predates the Organization, and that until recent times (Organization times) did not have contact with outsiders since its founding days hundreds of years in the past.
__________________


How the warriors of Claymore OUGHT to look: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...ostcount=12541
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...ostcount=12530
"So Shiek, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb!"
revan5 is offline  
Old 2010-04-23, 17:09   Link #607
Rennir
Requiem of Dreams
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Beneath the prodigious sky...
But then wouldnt the inhabitants deduce that the organization had to have arrived from somewhere else which would mean that other lands do exist out of the island. And, even if all of the people from that generation died, I just don't see how the knowledge doesn't get passed down to the children. If some child asked about the org, then surely their parents would tell them that they arrived on the island in the past.
________
NO2 VAPORIZER

Last edited by Rennir; 2011-04-19 at 05:09.
Rennir is offline  
Old 2010-04-23, 18:00   Link #608
Aimless
Insufficiently Inebriated
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
Can you determine the exact number of degrees you are traveling just by looking at the direction? Would you notice a few changes to them over a month?
Yes. But not by using the position of the Sun. You use the position of the North Star. That will tell you both your latitude and your direction of travel. The longitude problem is harder.
Aimless is offline  
Old 2010-04-23, 18:53   Link #609
kitten320
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Age: 24
Hey, have little question? Is new chapter suppoused to be next week? If so, doesn't Golden week aply to monthly manga releases?
__________________
kitten320 is offline  
Old 2010-04-23, 19:39   Link #610
Guido
Hunger of the Dead
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Monterrey, México
Age: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitten320 View Post
Hey, have little question? Is new chapter suppoused to be next week? If so, doesn't Golden week aply to monthly manga releases?
I don't think so. Next chapter is due in two weeks not on the next week.
Guido is offline  
Old 2010-04-23, 19:58   Link #611
Korinov
The Burned Man walks!
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Asspain
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinak View Post
Columbus' crew would need to know basic navigation to know whether or not they are traveling in a line. anybody can look at the horizon to determine direction. Especially at dusk and dawn. They wouldn't need the stars at all. Somebody would surely notice they haven't made any progress.
Well, Columbus' first voyage across the Atlantic was quite a 'problematic' one. In order to reduce the risk of a riot among his crew, and if I remember correctly, he wrote two logbooks: a fake one, where he logged fake courses and distances, and a 'true one' where he logged what was really happening. He kept the second one in secret, only known to his most trusted officers, of course. In the end there were various attemped riots anyway, because the crew eventually noticed they were going 'nowhere'. Columbus was really lucky to arrive at Guanahani, otherwise he'd lost his skin.

About the topic issue, since Yagi has never showed us any port village or ship (or even the sea) in the entire Claymore manga, we don't know the development level of the island's navigation techniques or shipbuilding. But the key factor, I think, are the needs of the island's economy and society: if there's enough land for anyone (and the Org probably makes sure the population numbers keep stable) and the island's own domestic market can absorb all the production (probable, since the production system seems archaic and quite unproductive), no one will put too much effort in looking for new lands overseas, especially if they think the island is actually the 'main continent' and have no proof of any other existing land.

Anyway, we're talking about a section of background of Claymoverse that Yagi has barely developed. I think it's fair to assume that the Org just wants to keep the islandfolks unaware of their condition of lab rats, and does it efficiently.
Korinov is offline  
Old 2010-04-23, 21:37   Link #612
Vinak
Procrastinator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: United States
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
Can you determine the exact number of degrees you are traveling just by looking at the direction? Would you notice a few changes to them over a month? I mean where talking about cooking he frog slowly (which they don't notice) not throwing him in boiling water and seeing if he notices (which he will).

Next off your acting like there planned trip was static, example go to exactly this point on the map and see if there is land. Not see if there is land to the west of us, west being an awfully big place. It's not like historically we launched 50 ships at once in a search pattern, all heading in slightly different direction. Typically it was a single ship or a small squad travelling together exploring a huge area with no real flight path.
don't quite recall saying each trip went in the same direction.

If you travel in one direction long enough. Lets just say its East. Every morning you can track where the sun (stars)is in relation to true east. the sun will move left or right of this line depending on the time of year. Over time, a crew should notice any irregularities to this movement. Also you can only travel in one direction for so long until you run into something. So making subtle "unnoticeable" course alterations is implausible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
Your just proving my point with this... voyages have been launched in Claymore searching for more land. Yet none was found, yet we know it exists. I realize I'm speculating but your speculations implies they should have discovered land by now too. However this is not the case... is it wrong to hypothesize why?

BTW China discovered America before Columbus too.
you just invalidated your coastal travel only claim.

My point was the logistics involved to stop all exploration by sabotage is implausible. Something has to convince the crews of these ships to turn around and go back on their own. otherwise it would cause suspicion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryus View Post

They can change bodies... Zaki is proof of that. The yomi inside Zaki confessed to taking over his body. So these Yoma could just move on once they arrived back on the island.

See above, they can switch bodies... and how can any of us know the answer to them aging though.
I am more concerned with long term transformations. I am not trying to argue whether or not a yoma can transform into a human form...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
Also even if they didn't age and stayed in the same body they could just always move around the country side. Next off who's to say a Claymore doesn't say them before anyone notices.
In order to complete the facade of a failed exploration trip, they would need to live normal lives. If everybody from an exploration trip returned home and all of them suddenly decided to move away or "died" then that would peak a populations suspicion. If every coastal town got wiped out after sending a ship would peak suspicion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
This counter argument has more holes in it than mine.
It only has holes in it because you've misread it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
As to whole towns disappearing... what fuss was raised over Gornal, Cynthia's home town, The entire north, or half the towns in the south? None that we know of... the people in claymore accept towns dieing off. Also who's to say that if a ship discovered land that the org wouldn't whip out the whole town before news could spread?
the only way for the general population to learn of the destruction of this town is from survivors or traveling merchants. Somebody probably witnessed the destruction thus not causing the general population to grow suspicious of planned destruction. I also doubt it was a coastal town celebrating the return of a exploration ship who had just discovered new lands.
the general population also probably knows about the war in the North. and plenty have seen the zacs. they know what caused the destruction of these regions. well they know half the story anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
First off they don't have to destroy the ships that go in the wrong direction. So most ships would be safe.
never said they did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
They only need to do something about those that do travel in the right direction; They need to make them think they went that way when they didn't (the spy theory)... have bought off the crew (be it via a secret group of sailors that are on there payroll or with deals when they get back home (like passage for them and there family off the island and safe from yoma attacks))... replaced them (yoma crew theory)... or destroyed the ships that the above 3 plans didn't work on (org navy theory). Or else... the ship will report land back to the island, something that we know hasn't happened yet. It's that simple.
Do you really think a dozen or more sailors across multiple generations are capable of keeping such a conspiracy a secret for at least 100 years?

Watergate consisted of only a few individuals. That got out into the public quite quickly. the non existence of WMD's in Iraq was found out eventually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korinov View Post
Well, Columbus' first voyage across the Atlantic was quite a 'problematic' one. In order to reduce the risk of a riot among his crew, and if I remember correctly, he wrote two logbooks: a fake one, where he logged fake courses and distances, and a 'true one' where he logged what was really happening. He kept the second one in secret, only known to his most trusted officers, of course. In the end there were various attemped riots anyway, because the crew eventually noticed they were going 'nowhere'. Columbus was really lucky to arrive at Guanahani, otherwise he'd lost his skin.
that is pretty interesting (also irrelevant). Do you have a source for that? Cause this is the first time I've heard about it. Columbus's situation was a bit different. They 1) had been traveling longer than the estimated time to reach India. and 2) felt they were going to fall off the "edge" of the planet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korinov View Post
About the topic issue, since Yagi has never showed us any port village or ship (or even the sea) in the entire Claymore manga, we don't know the development level of the island's navigation techniques or shipbuilding. But the key factor, I think, are the needs of the island's economy and society: if there's enough land for anyone (and the Org probably makes sure the population numbers keep stable) and the island's own domestic market can absorb all the production (probable, since the production system seems archaic and quite unproductive), no one will put too much effort in looking for new lands overseas, especially if they think the island is actually the 'main continent' and have no proof of any other existing land.
Spoiler for coastal town:

they have plenty of motivation to seek new lands: Yoma.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Korinov View Post
Anyway, we're talking about a section of background of Claymoverse that Yagi has barely developed. I think it's fair to assume that the Org just wants to keep the islandfolks unaware of their condition of lab rats, and does it efficiently.
we are speculating how they accomplish this.
__________________
Vinak is offline  
Old 2010-04-23, 23:37   Link #613
FormerAbyssalone
Guts=badass
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: passed out inside a sea monster.
Age: 24
Send a message via Yahoo to FormerAbyssalone
Smile

Yagi probly wont start 2 devolpe the mainland until Raki get shipped 2 the mainland. Which more than likely happen.
FormerAbyssalone is offline  
Old 2010-04-24, 00:01   Link #614
Rennir
Requiem of Dreams
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Beneath the prodigious sky...
Am I missing something? Why is it likely that raki gets shipped to the mainland? Isn't he still wandering around looking for Clare?
________
FORD 4.4 TURBO DIESEL SPECIFICATIONS

Last edited by Rennir; 2011-04-19 at 05:10.
Rennir is offline  
Old 2010-04-24, 01:17   Link #615
Ryus
The One Eyed King
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lurking Up Ahead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
Yes. But not by using the position of the Sun. You use the position of the North Star. That will tell you both your latitude and your direction of travel. The longitude problem is harder.
First off I know that. What I meant was without tools, such as a sextant. I could give a good guess using the north star based on my knowledge of astronomy but I doubt I could calculate the degrees with a simple guess. Don't get me wrong again, I know it can be done mathematically but I don't see sailors knowing that math unless the get some serious training which would require an economy that can support the training and encourage it, implying there was money to be made. Sailors mostly relied on visually gauging there position for routes they knew and locations close to home... math didn't really become mainstream in navigation until more regular shipping across continents came into being, and naval fleets to support them, during the Renascence. The island clearly isn't having a Renascence right now but a dark age

Next off... how do we know is claymore has a "north star"? or at least one that is above magnitude 4 (The souther hemisphere has a magnitude 5.45 star near due south but it's far too dim for navigational purposes, Polaris is magnitude 1.97 (think Claymore ranking system, where lower is more powerful but in this case brighter. however negative numbers are used, Venus peaking at −4.6 (the sun at -27)). Also I'm sure you know this but Polaris wasn't always our north star, due to Earth's rotation on it's axis (taking ~26,000 years to complete one rotation). About 5,000 years ago Earth's north pole pointed near the star Thuban, in Draco. In 12,000 years it will be pointed towards Vega in Lyra. So they maybe between north stars. Now, Polaris will reach maximum declination (as close to being perfectly north as it will ever be, in this cycle and next cycle it will be further way when last cycle it was closer to being perfectly north) on February 2102. So every day between now and then it will be getting closer and closer to being perfectly north but after then it will get further away every day.

We can't rely on things from the real world always being in a fantasy one but inversely we can't ignore the facts of the real world either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinak View Post
don't quite recall saying each trip went in the same direction.

If you travel in one direction long enough. Lets just say its East. Every morning you can track where the sun (stars)is in relation to true east. the sun will move left or right of this line depending on the time of year. Over time, a crew should notice any irregularities to this movement. Also you can only travel in one direction for so long until you run into something. So making subtle "unnoticeable" course alterations is implausible.
I'm sorry but funding for voyages of discovery is bloody expensive. Crews usually only got one shot... so how could they take repeat trips in a different direction each time.

It hasn't been implied that voyages of discovery are common in Claymore, just that they have happened. So, at best, where talking a voyage or two every few years (and likely funded by different towns and cities each time, so crews wouldn't get a second voyage 3 years later form the same town... more like 50 years later) and all would have been planned openly for months with calls for crew to sign up for the dangerous voyage (with extra pay/incentives). So the org would always know about them in advance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinak View Post
you just invalidated your coastal travel only claim.

My point was the logistics involved to stop all exploration by sabotage is implausible. Something has to convince the crews of these ships to turn around and go back on their own. otherwise it would cause suspicion.
Learn so geography. They used the Aleutian islands to reach Alaska and sailed down the coast. It was entirely a coastal voyage.

Also learn the history of Columbus's voyage... he had two navigational books since the crew was close to rioting to force a return, sailors where historically jumpy and loved the safety of coastal travel, the open sea scared the crap out of them (pardon my language). The crew was feed lies for months about exactly where they where. They did discover the truth but luckily for Columbus he reached land just after they found out the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinak View Post
I am more concerned with long term transformations. I am not trying to argue whether or not a yoma can transform into a human form...
You brought it up... Am I not allowed to post a counter point sorry you got your Claymore facts wrong and I called it. We all mess up no shame in it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinak View Post
In order to complete the facade of a failed exploration trip, they would need to live normal lives. If everybody from an exploration trip returned home and all of them suddenly decided to move away or "died" then that would peak a populations suspicion. If every coastal town got wiped out after sending a ship would peak suspicion.
Death by yoma is normal for them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinak View Post
It only has holes in it because you've misread it.
I have neither the years nor the patience to play semantics. Either clear up your position or give up this holier than thou position.

I post correction and clarification all the time since communication is a two way process and by not clarifying I would be failing my end of a civilized debate. Do like wise or as mama used to say "if you've got nothing nice to say then don't say anything".

That wasn't a random insult I typed in but a part of a well founded position I was taking, which you took out of context. All I was saying was that sure my speculation is just a speculation and therefore not perfect... however your stance is based on inconsistent facts, many being unfactual too.

I'm sorry if you took it as an insult but it was just meant as a sum up of how shaky your stance on yoma's not being able to switch bodies is. Yoma Zaki himself said he did so and we have nothing to discount what he said, so it was a factual event. Therefore your stance was just wrong. Sorry no offense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinak View Post
the only way for the general population to learn of the destruction of this town is from survivors or traveling merchants. Somebody probably witnessed the destruction thus not causing the general population to grow suspicious of planned destruction. I also doubt it was a coastal town celebrating the return of a exploration ship who had just discovered new lands.
the general population also probably knows about the war in the North. and plenty have seen the zacs. they know what caused the destruction of these regions. well they know half the story anyway.


I'm not sure I should laugh or cry over that. We know of towns of yoma, bandits, and ABs... all have whipped out towns. The villagers are cowards who don't act to defend themselves and they have no central government. So it's not that towns won't get suspicious but they'll just assume yoma or bandits and bury their collective heads in the sand hoping that the danger will pass them by. We all know that the org is cleaver enough and sneaky enough to scarface a warrior, so they'd awaken and eat a town to silence them. If not that then they'd just let an already awakened AB do the job for them, or not send Claymore's to an area and let them die. They manipulate everything on the island and the population just accepts that's it a dangerous world, the public may hate the org but they believe they are all that is keeping them alive, hence untouchable. Suspicious or not they are beyond approach, just due to that fact alone. Plus they have an army of withes that can take on any human army they make. So they just accept the fate seemingly handed down to them and live there humble lives for as long as they can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinak View Post
never said they did.
Never said you did either, I was just clarifying my position. So I could point out that they didn't have to tack action against every voyage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinak View Post
Do you really think a dozen or more sailors across multiple generations are capable of keeping such a conspiracy a secret for at least 100 years?

Watergate consisted of only a few individuals. That got out into the public quite quickly. the non existence of WMD's in Iraq was found out eventually.
First off what you quoted had nothing to do with the generational spy theory I said was likely impossible to pull off. So my earlier point (which oddly the above quote wasn't responding to ) was that they couldn't... not that they could. So we agree, to a degree on this point.

However you must realize we live in a free society with telecommunication (if a story breaks it's out for good). They live in a apparent open society (really with dire consequences for anyone who could spill the secret of the org) with no telecommunication with seemingly no printing presses, so it's all word of mouth or done via a scribe. So if watergate broke in there day, the story would be filled with so much Hearsay that by the time it passed from village A all the way to village D it wouldn't even be the same story or there would be 5 other stores too and who knows which one would hear first. Everyone and every opinion could potentially mottle the truth before most found out. So be the time it hit village G no one would care... believing not my business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinak View Post
that is pretty interesting (also irrelevant). Do you have a source for that? Cause this is the first time I've heard about it. Columbus's situation was a bit different. They 1) had been traveling longer than the estimated time to reach India. and 2) felt they were going to fall off the "edge" of the planet.
Korinov is very right, it is factual, here is the first source I found on the web http://www.elizabethan-era.org.uk/ch...r-columbus.htm

I must have heard this 200 times in history courses, where did you go to school (live in the US? or else where?)

Actually it's very relevant. It proves that sailors mentality would only allow them to go so far before desiring to turn back. So an org spy navigator would only need to lie about he distance they traveled but exaggerating the distance not shrinking it and then the crew would gladdy turn back and tell everyone, "yeap, there's nothing out there."

Fear of the unknown can be immense and sailors sailing away from shore and there normal routes had much unknown and no safety net of nearby land. Most would want to return home.

However let me play devils advocate to prove a point. Lets say someone dreamer like Columbus was on the ship pushing them onwards... could the spy use the normal tactics, clearly not. Also this dreamer had a false book too. how could the the org spy stop the ship before it reached land? Simple all he'd have to do is prove where they really where and get the crew panicking due to the vast distance they where and there dwindling supplies. The spy then would only need to ensure a riot and the panicking crew would do the rest, likely they'd kill the dreamer to there safety (much like soldiers killing bad officers back in the old days, it ensure there survival against his suicidal orders). When they'd get back they'd report he fell overboard during a storm.
Ryus is offline  
Old 2010-04-24, 01:23   Link #616
Ryus
The One Eyed King
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lurking Up Ahead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rennir View Post
Am I missing something? Why is it likely that raki gets shipped to the mainland? Isn't he still wandering around looking for Clare?
Normally I'd worry about giving you spoilers but this is the chapter 102 thread and if you haven't read that far... reading that previous spoiler was you fault. If you have read it but need a refresh check out the spoiler below, if not then stop reading this thread until you've caught up (unless you don't mind spoilers that is)

Spoiler for Spoilers for Chapter 96:
Ryus is offline  
Old 2010-04-24, 01:30   Link #617
FormerAbyssalone
Guts=badass
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: passed out inside a sea monster.
Age: 24
Send a message via Yahoo to FormerAbyssalone
Smile

Dammit Ryus u beat me 2 it. I was going 2 tell him what happend 2 Raki.
FormerAbyssalone is offline  
Old 2010-04-24, 01:59   Link #618
Aimless
Insufficiently Inebriated
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
First off I know that. What I meant was without tools, such as a sextant. I could give a good guess using the north star based on my knowledge of astronomy but I doubt I could calculate the degrees with a simple guess. Don't get me wrong again, I know it can be done mathematically but I don't see sailors knowing that math unless the get some serious training which would require an economy that can support the training and encourage it, implying there was money to be made. Sailors mostly relied on visually gauging there position for routes they knew and locations close to home... math didn't really become mainstream in navigation until more regular shipping across continents came into being, and naval fleets to support them, during the Renascence. The island clearly isn't having a Renascence right now but a dark age

Next off... how do we know is claymore has a "north star"? or at least one that is above magnitude 4 (The souther hemisphere has a magnitude 5.45 star near due south but it's far too dim for navigational purposes, Polaris is magnitude 1.97 (think Claymore ranking system, where lower is more powerful but in this case brighter. however negative numbers are used, Venus peaking at −4.6 (the sun at -27)). Also I'm sure you know this but Polaris wasn't always our north star, due to Earth's rotation on it's axis (taking ~26,000 years to complete one rotation). About 5,000 years ago Earth's north pole pointed near the star Thuban, in Draco. In 12,000 years it will be pointed towards Vega in Lyra. So they maybe between north stars. Now, Polaris will reach maximum declination (as close to being perfectly north as it will ever be, in this cycle and next cycle it will be further way when last cycle it was closer to being perfectly north) on February 2102. So every day between now and then it will be getting closer and closer to being perfectly north but after then it will get further away every day.

We can't rely on things from the real world always being in a fantasy one but inversely we can't ignore the facts of the real world either.
Three points here.

The first is that you would be surprised by how serious sailors can get about math training, since their lives depend on it. You greatly underestimate the mathematical literacy of classical navigators.

The second is that it requires extremely little mathematical or mechanical know-how to construct a functional sextant. I could create one accurate to within a degree or so using a piece of cardboard, and knife, and a length of string.

The third is that the presence of a north star is not strictly necessary for navigation; sailors knew how to find their latitude in the southern hemisphere nearly as easily as in the north. The nightly motion of every star in the sky inscribes a circle about the celestial pole. Spend a single night tracking the stars and making even halfway competent observations and you can locate the celestial pole even without the convenience of a pole star. From that moment on, navigation is easy, since the pole never moves. As long as you know where the pole is in relation to nearby stars, you are fine. This is what they used to do in the southern hemisphere, by the way. Thus, as long as the sky has stars (which we presume the Claymore universe does) then you will never be lost.

All of this is far far more accurate than trying to rely on the position of the sun at sunrise and sunset - which depends, I might add, on knowing your latitude.

And, lastly, I teach astronomy. So, yes, I know all of this stuff.

Last edited by Aimless; 2010-04-24 at 02:22.
Aimless is offline  
Old 2010-04-24, 02:10   Link #619
FormerAbyssalone
Guts=badass
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: passed out inside a sea monster.
Age: 24
Send a message via Yahoo to FormerAbyssalone
Post

Well im more of a marine biologist (in terms of knowing about) than a astrometer.( I know I cant spell). The only thing I remember being told about when sailing is 2 find the north star 2 get an idea of what direction ur going.
FormerAbyssalone is offline  
Old 2010-04-24, 02:39   Link #620
Ryus
The One Eyed King
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lurking Up Ahead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
Three points here.

The first is that you would be surprised by how serious sailors can get about math training, since their lives depend on it. You greatly underestimate the mathematical literacy of classical navigators.

The second is that it requires extremely little mathematical or mechanical know-how to construct a functional sextant. I could create one accurate to within a degree or so using a piece of cardboard, and knife, and a length of string.

The third is that the presence of a north star is not strictly necessary for navigation; sailors knew how to find their latitude in the southern hemisphere nearly as easily as in the north. The nightly motion of every star in the sky inscribes a circle about the celestial pole. Spend a single night tracking the stars and making even halfway competent observations and you can locate the celestial pole even without the convenience of a pole star. From that moment on, navigation is easy, since the pole never moves. As long as you know where the pole is in relation to nearby stars, you are fine. This is what they used to do in the southern hemisphere, by the way. (There are three stars which form a rough box, missing corner of which is the pole.) Identify those three stars and you can locate the pole. Thus, as long as the sky has stars (which we presume the Claymore universe does) then you will never be lost.

All of this is far far more accurate than trying to rely on the position of the sun at sunrise and sunset - which depends, I might add, on knowing your latitude.

And, lastly, I teach astronomy. So, yes, I know all of this stuff.
3 counter points (yes, I know some history of sailing)

1) The sextant was invented in 1731 by John Hadley. Though Isacc Newton invented it prior but never published any info on it. So this technology clearly didn't exist until a time prior much later than Claymore is parallel to. Just cause you and I could make it doesn't mean they've figured out how to.

2) The main tool of navigation used before the sextant was the astrolabe and that only dates to the 15th century (for naval navigational purposes). Even though the Greeks invented it As to the southern hemispehere argument European navigators mainly started traveling in the southern hemiphere starting in the 1500's. After the invention of the astrolab made sailing in the southern hemisphere safer and more common place. I don't know much about none European sailing history though... though except of Asia and mid-east most where significantly less developed and likely just relied on the sun, moon, and stars.

3) Before that determining latitude before this was done with 3 instruments cross-staff, astrolabe, and quadrant. All required a dedicated navigator whom if controlled by the org could manipulate everything. While these tools could potentially be used for deep sea exploration they where meant for short distances and required charts too.

Also math for sailing purposes didn't truly developed until the age of exploration in the 1500's. Sure it existed but besides being less developed, it was less common and didn't become a trade craft until once again the age of exploration. When an economy encouraged more long duration sea trade and therefore more trained and reliable sailors who could handle those longer voyages.

The question is are the vessels in Claymore as well trained and funded as the ships during the age of exploration. The state of the island implies no they are in a darkage, but I will admit this is not confirmed and therefore debatable. Yagi could just make it so on a whim and that would be that I suppose.

Last edited by Ryus; 2010-04-24 at 02:54.
Ryus is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:23.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.