[Manga] Who is Tobi?

[TimeMask]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

not exactly sure what you mean here, but if you're implying that Tobi's mysterious mask can hide his presence from bijou and change his personality then that is a stretch imo. besides, he didn't have this new mask when he captured the 3 tails (and dealt with most of the other bijou) so they would have been able to recognize him then.

on another point, gaining rinnegan was a necessity for Tobi, So6P already had it

We don't know if Rikudo had rinnegan before he sealed the 10 tails or if he got rinnegan from the 10 tails.

Kabuto said he needed a living Uchiha to Tobi which makes it sound like Kishi is hinting that Tobi wasn’t born a Uchiha but took Uchiha DNA even though Kabuto was talking about how Tobi wasn't Madara.

I voted for other since Tobi could be anyone such as Izuna, the 10 tails, Kagami and Fugaku.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by TimeMask

We don't know if Rikudo had rinnegan before he sealed the 10 tails or if he got rinnegan from the 10 tails.

it's never been implied that the juubi is a necessity for gaining rinnegan. madara didn't have to have the juubi in order to have them.

Kabuto said he needed a living Uchiha to Tobi which makes it sound like Kishi is hinting that Tobi wasn’t born a Uchiha but took Uchiha DNA even though Kabuto was talking about how Tobi wasn't Madara.

to me it sounded like kabuto wants to have revenge on sasuke and was using 'a living breathing uchiha' as an excuse to tobi for wanting him. kabuto rarely tells the full truth and tobi's expression was highly skeptical. I'm sure kabuto does want an uchiha for his experiments but getting sasuke would mean a lot more than that.

also, it's probably safe to assume that kabuto didn't think he could beat tobi or that beating tobi would be too much of a hassle, so he prefers to go after sasuke instead.

[Deathscyther]

I think he might be the elder son of the Sage of the six paths.

The elder son received his father's "eyes": his powerful chakra and spiritual energy. His youngest son received his "body": his life force and physical energy. The eldest son believed power was the key to peace, while the youngest son believed that love was the key. On his deathbed, the Rikudou chose his youngest son as successor. This caused the elder brother to act out in hatred against his brother, as he felt his father should have chosen him instead.

Tobi told Naruto that he's nobody. Maybe because the elder brother wasn't chosen to succeed the sage, he decided to forget about who he used to be and decided to leave everything behind, including his existence, to pursue his own goal: the wish to become 'complete' (getting both the 'eyes' and 'body', becoming the jinchuuriki of the Juubi and then becoming the new Sage) and then create 'peace' using his 'power', the moon eye plan.

Tobi's face, at least the part we saw, seems quite old. The rest of his body seems to be manufactured (made out of Zetsu material).
Possible theories:
- he tried implanting cells of his younger brother in his own body, resulting in him living a long life. His body couldn't keep up with his long life, resulting in him creating body parts;
- some kind of body switch, althought his would be an Orochimaru ripoff.
- Tobi is just a puppet who's being controlled by this elder son of the Sage by using the power of the final path of the Sage of the six paths: 'the one who is outside of both life and death and controls both'.

This would explain why he said that he's just a shell of the one he used to be. He tossed aside his past, his body and his existence in order to complete his goal.

I guess this explains why he knows so much about the tailed beasts as well, since he's the son of the jinchuuriki of the Juubi.

If Tobi is indeed the elder son, then he might be pitting Naruto and Sasuke against each other to get a perfect body for himself. One with the power of the 'eyes' and the power of the 'body'. It might be for something more personal too though. To prove that the Sage should have picked him, the one who inherited the power of the eyes and believes power is the way (elder brother, Madara, Sasuke) and not the younger son, the one who inherited the power of the body and believes love is the way (younger son, Hashirama Senju, Naruto). The elder son might have pitted Madara and Hashirama against each other for the same reason as why he's pitting Sasuke against Naruto. Madara knows about Tobi after all. But since both he and Madara lost, his hope is on Sasuke now.

Anyways, I'll just stop here. This is all just pure speculation after all

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Deathscyther

I think he might be the elder son of the Sage of the six paths.

after watching the last episodes dealing with naruto's birth I started getting this feeling as well. Tobi just feels like an old character. and he's obviously not entirely madara. I'm not abondoning the madara mind/obito body theory just yet, but I feel like the elder son of RS is a very viable option.

Tobi is adamant about his revenge, he hates the world, he harps on the senju/uchiha feud, he wants what was supposed to be given to the elder son, or so he thought, and he wants the power of the juubi that his father had. the RS wouldn't have given leadership to someone like Tobi who is just like his eldest son in these regards. and Tobi seems to have been around for so long, that he's lost sight of what he really wants. he just wants chaos and power.

Tobi clearly has a manufactured body although recently I've begun to think that he did a body switch. he seemed to not be familiar with sweating... also, a manufactured body most likely wouldn't sweat. and when naruto headbutted him, he didn't pass through. Tobi claimed it was the mask, but it could be that he actually has a body now, which is probably necessary for becoming the juubi jinchuuriki.

These last episodes made me wonder if the show's directors know that it's the elder son already. There isn't a lot of evidence, but I really got that feeling.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

Tobi clearly has a manufactured body although recently I've begun to think that he did a body switch. he seemed to not be familiar with sweating... also, a manufactured body most likely wouldn't sweat. and when naruto headbutted him, he didn't pass through. Tobi claimed it was the mask, but it could be that he actually has a body now, which is probably necessary for becoming the juubi jinchuuriki.

Except that he can still phase through Kakashi and Gai just fine (can't he?), so it's still probable that it was Naruto's Cloak that made hitting him possible. That aside, I'm also seeing quite a bit of plausibility behind the idea; evidence is lacking at the moment, but in theory the idea is quite plausible.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Akashin

Except that he can still phase through Kakashi and Gai just fine (can't he?), so it's still probable that it was Naruto's Cloak that made hitting him possible. That aside, I'm also seeing quite a bit of plausibility behind the idea; evidence is lacking at the moment, but in theory the idea is quite plausible.

oh yea... forgot about the kakashi and gai part. i guess the dematerialization technique really has nothing to do with his body anyway since he can phase through things with his clothes and mask and they aren't illusions

[Spectacular_Insanity]

I think Madara's phasing ability is derived from his MS. From what we've seen, it's gotta be a space-time jutsu like his teleportation/dimensional abilities. It's almost like a variant of Izanami, minus the con of having the eye close forever.

But yeah, elder son of the Sage is starting to sound more and more likely to me.

Either that, or it really is Kishi in his own manga, trolling us.

[Hiking_Bear]

I don't think it's very reasonable to expect Tobi to be the Elder Son of the Sage. If Tobi had existed for that long, then why doesn't he appear anywhere prior to the 9-tails attack? Since Tobi's goals are the same as Madara's then why wouldn't he have fought alongside Madara at the Valley of the End? Then he could have achieved the Moon's Eye Plan maybe 70 years earlier. Why would the Elder Son impersonate Madara? How would he have lived that long (hundreds of years)? Why would he wear a mask? Is there more to this theory then just the two frames from Tobi's story flashback?

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

I don't think it's very reasonable to expect Tobi to be the Elder Son of the Sage. If Tobi had existed for that long, then why doesn't he appear anywhere prior to the 9-tails attack? Since Tobi's goals are the same as Madara's then why wouldn't he have fought alongside Madara at the Valley of the End? Then he could have achieved the Moon's Eye Plan maybe 70 years earlier. Why would the Elder Son impersonate Madara? How would he have lived that long (hundreds of years)? Why would he wear a mask? Is there more to this theory then just the two frames from Tobi's story flashback?

I agree it doesn't hold much water, but the motivation is clearly there. There could be reasonable explanations for all your questions, but they aren't mentioned in the manga yet. I'm also not certain yet if tobi and madara do have the same goal even if they say they do.

It's still the case that the obito/madara theory has the most evidence to support it. The elder son theory is just a gut feeling atm I think.

[MeroBAKA]

I already stated a hypothesis a long time ago to explain how it could be possible.
Actually Madara's actions were guided by what it was written on the Uchiha tablets and what the results are? For the moment we know from the manga the results are the Rinnegan. Madara used Rinnegan to revive either the writer of the tablets, one of the sons of the sage or the sage himself. So, I believe to be feasible that Tobi is the eldest son of the sage.
There are other possibilities, but I think it is the most likely for me. From that hypothesis I also believe it is possible that Tobi has the face of Hashirama. They likely had to link the revived soul to a Zetsu body.
It may also be possible that Madara let his body to Tobi. Technically, when Tobi speaks about Senju, that means what he said can be true like he is still wounded from his battle with Senju. A second encounter, fatal to the First, may have happened sealing also some powers of Tobi.

[kyosama]

Originally Posted by MeroBAKA

From that hypothesis I also believe it is possible that Tobi has the face of Hashirama. They likely had to link his soul to a body.

But how is it possible for Hashirama's soul to be linked to a body? Wasn't he sealed away in the 3rd Hokage's body during the invasion of Konoha?

[prakash123]

Uchiha Kagami is TOBI.Also, not nuch has been said about Uchiha Kagami. It never mentioned anything about him dying, or what even happened to him. He just... Disappeared. When Sasuke fought Danzo Tobi made it very obvious that he knew Danzo very well. I believe Tobi is Uchiha Kagami. Remember, he fought alongside Tobirama Senju. Now, in the series so far it is clear that were only 3 people who use space-time jutsu,, Tobirama Senju, Minato, and Tobi. When you think about it, if Uchiha Kagami fought alongside Tobirama Senju, it is very possible that Tobirama could have tought him space-time jutsu. That would explain how Tobi(Uchiha Kagami) uses space-time jutsu. Also, Tobi and Danzo share similar ideals.. Btw, Uchiha Kagami was in first Shinobi world war along with all the others which means he would have spent alot of time with the elders. In conclusion:
Uchiha Kagami: The man who was in the squad of Tobirama, the brother of Hashirama Senju who was Madara's rival. Tobirama - the shinobi that the masked man derived his alias "Tobi" from.

Uchiha Kagami: The man who was in the same squad as both elders, Danzo, and Hiruzen. Four people all involved in the Uchiha massacre, and 3 of which Tobi brainwashed Sasuke to kill. Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.

Uchiha Kagami: The man who picked up where his father left off, but was smarter than his father. Instead of destroying the Senju head on, he would infiltrate Konoha, and learn about their ways. "Patience is the key to success" ~ Tobi.

Uchiha Kagami: The man, the Uchiha, that Kishimoto quietly introduced, yet everyone overlooked.

Uchiha Kagami: The man behind the mask.

a theory i found online

[itachi-san314]

you know why it's not uchiha kagami? because i had to look up the name to make sure i knew who you were talking about. if tobi turns out to be some random character like that then it would be horrible writing. i'd prefer him to be someone completely new over a random character like that who was in 1 chapter as a filler character. we also know nothing about his motivations and character which makes it even more hollow of a choice

from a writing standpoint, tobi needs to be someone fairly well established like obito/madara, madara's brother or RS' elder son. they are all somehwat minor characters in the scheme of things, but they all have well established character traits and motivation.

slightly less acceptable is someone new. and completely unacceptable is someone with no history and barely any mention like kagami, konohamaru's parent, tsunade's parent, etc... that is bad writing and since I believe kishi to be an excellent writer, it's just not going to happen

[prakash123]

thats what kishi does.he like to keep characters in the shadow.there is a possibility that it could be kagami.besides kagami isnt a random char.he might have had the same ideology of peace as danzo.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

you know why it's not uchiha kagami? because i had to look up the name to make sure i knew who you were talking about. if tobi turns out to be some random character like that then it would be horrible writing. i'd prefer him to be someone completely new over a random character like that who was in 1 chapter as a filler character. we also know nothing about his motivations and character which makes it even more hollow of a choice

I'll be damned if I didn't crack up while I read it, but this. I just can't see Kishimoto pulling out the "Tobi is Random Uchiha #3775" card. At this point Tobi could be anybody, but I really don't think that means he should be anybody.

All of that said, when I looked up Kagami (yes, I had to as well <_<), I couldn't help noticing how... similar his hair looks to Tobi's. That's the only reason I can think of to get behind the theory.

[prakash123]

well he might have gotten the name tobi from tobirama.he might have learned S/T jutsu from nidaime hokage(tobirama)?kagami was part of tobiramas 3 man cell.
minato also mentioned abt how tobis S/T jutsu was better than his a or the 2nds.seems to me like kishi likes the idea of students always surpassing their teachers. naruto surpassing jiraya.sasuke surpassing kakashi and all and student teacher rivalry

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by prakash123

well he might have gotten the name tobi from tobirama

It's only the same spelling if you use the Roman alphabet. In Japanese, Tobi is spelled with completely different characters from Tobirama. However, they match the "bi" and "to" used in Obito's name.

Tobirama = 扉間
Tobi = トビ
Obito = オビト

seems to me like kishi likes the idea of students always surpassing their teachers. naruto surpassing jiraya.sasuke surpassing kakashi and all and student teacher rivalry

Hmmm... and which one of Minato's students could have surpassed him?

[Hasumi]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

It's only the same spelling if you use the Roman alphabet. In Japanese, Tobi is spelled with completely different characters from Tobirama. However, they match the "bi" and "to" used in Obito's name.

Tobirama = 扉間
Tobi = トビ
Obito = オビト

Hmmm... and which one of Minato's students could have surpassed him?

Obviously the girl.

Oh wait, this is Naruto...

[Myth]

This is something I've been pondering as well. To be honest, with the whole 'Tobi is not Madara' bomb having been dropped, I have absolutely no clue who he is.

I just hope that, whoever Kishi has in mind as being Tobi, it's someone that we the readers could've figured out without being told. If the mystery of his identity doesn't follow Knox's Decalogue (rule one, in particular: it is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story), I shall be sorely disappointed. D:

But maybe I'm just too obsessed with mystery since reading Umineko. ^^;

If Tobi is Obito, then I wonder how he'll explain that one. Not only are there physical difficulties (considering the right side of Obito got completely crushed by that boulder; he said himself that he couldn't feel anything anymore [so how would his right eye have survived? :/]), but I can't really see him wanting to crush Konoha, hurt his sensei, and take over the world. :1 But maybe that's just me.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Myth

If Tobi is Obito, then I wonder how he'll explain that one. Not only are there physical difficulties (considering the right side of Obito got completely crushed by that boulder; he said himself that he couldn't feel anything anymore [so how would his right eye have survived? :/]), but I can't really see him wanting to crush Konoha, hurt his sensei, and take over the world. :1 But maybe that's just me.

we never saw his crushed face. you're assuming the boulder is a perfect sphere or a solid shape without indentation. His face could have been spared while the right portion of his body was crushed causing him to lose all his feeling.