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View Poll Results: Who’s Under the Mask?
Madara 104 32.91%
Madara’s Son 14 4.43%
Madara’s Clone 30 9.49%
Madara’s Ghost/Soul/Poltergeist given shape... 33 10.44%
Obito 59 18.67%
Obito’s Body, but not really Obito... 55 17.41%
Someone else’s body (not Obito’s)... 21 6.65%
Zetsu’s Love Child... 23 7.28%
Tobirama/Sarutobi/or anyone with a 'tobi' in their name... 16 5.06%
Bruce Wayne or other… 69 21.84%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 316. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-03-07, 01:49   Link #781
prakash123
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
Tobi, who collects "good eyes", never bothered to collect Kakashi's Sharingan, even though it is one of the few MS that ever existed, and a special one at that. Could it be that Obito's consciousness still exists within Tobi, and that is the only reason why Kakashi has been spared?
like i mentioned earlier it might be that tobi is waiting for the perfect moment to take kakashi's eye.maybe its like a fail safe for when he needs it most.or maybe he gave his eye to kakashi(considering the obito theory) to further develop his plan.its similar to how itachi implanted shisui's eye in naruto without anyone knowing but himself???
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Old 2012-03-07, 08:07   Link #782
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When did madara ever place a seal in Obito minds???? I get trying to come up with theories but that is never said.
If a theory consisted only of things that were explicitly said in the manga, then it wouldn't be theory anymore, it would be fact.

The issue that needs to be explained is how Tobi was so easily able to control Kurama with his Sharingan. Both Minato and Jiraiya came to the conclusion that the only one capable of doing that was Madara. There's also the issue of Tobi knowing so much information that only Madara could know. Plus, Tobi has been referring to himself as Madara. I think someone pointed out that he does this even when there's no one else around. So, the best explanation I can think of is that Madara's memories/chakra were implanted into the person that is Tobi. Now, in the context of Obito Theory, it means that those memories/chakra were implanted into Obito. And the way that the timeline works out, Obito would have been only an infant at the time of Madara's death. So, if a chakra/memory transfer took place, it would have involved Madara sealing part of himself inside a newborn Obito (not unlike the time when Minato sealed a portion of himself inside a newborn Naruto).

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Not to mention that Madara would have been dead before Obito was ever born. Cause Madara would have died in his 30's to late 30's (give or take a few years )as seen by edo madara he is not that old which means he was dead decades so how would he even know about obito.
Madara did not die after his fight with Hashirama. If he did, he would never have met Nagato, since that fight took place before Nagato was ever born. Madara lived until Nagato was a young kid and it's the reason why Nagato had Rinnegan. So, we're looking at something like 30 years ago as the time of Madara's death. He would have been an old man in his 60s or 70s. As for the appearance of the Edo-Tensei, Kabuto said that he created Madara's Edo Tensei to be greater than he was in his prime. So, Madara was given the 30-40 year old body that he had back in his prime, along with the power of the Rinnegan, which he only achieved later in life shortly before his death.

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As for edo- madara knowing about nagato, he could have still been alive during the Second Shinobi World War. Nagato was just a child when he awakened his Rinnegan. Seeing as Nagato was a descendant of the Uzumaki clan(who are distant relatives of the Senju clan) Madara could have easily know about them.Madara did hate the Senju so "giving" nagato the rinnegan to destroy Konohan seeing as it was leaf ninjas that killed his parents would make sense. Edit: if Madara made a deal with him so that nagato could avenge his family he would give nagato his eyes to be revived later.
That's why I said around 30 years ago. Madara wouldn't be in his late 30s by this time, if that's when you're saying he died.
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Old 2012-03-07, 11:51   Link #783
itachi-san314
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The latest chapter pretty much rules out Izuna as Tobi. Madara says on ch 577 page 7: "after my brother died he only left me his eyes and their power" he wouldn't say this if Izuna was Tobi.

So yea, all the Obito theory haters just lost one of their biggest fallback characters who never had much proof to be tobi in the first place...
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Old 2012-03-07, 14:21   Link #784
Teru987
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
Madara did not die after his fight with Hashirama. If he did, he would never have met Nagato, since that fight took place before Nagato was ever born. Madara lived until Nagato was a young kid and it's the reason why Nagato had Rinnegan. So, we're looking at something like 30 years ago as the time of Madara's death. He would have been an old man in his 60s or 70s. As for the appearance of the Edo-Tensei, Kabuto said that he created Madara's Edo Tensei to be greater than he was in his prime. So, Madara was given the 30-40 year old body that he had back in his prime, along with the power of the Rinnegan, which he only achieved later in life shortly before his death.
I didn't say he died after that fight, we all know he walked away. He could have died after meeting Nagato during the second shinobi world war. But we still dont have any proof that he died 30 years ago its all speculation.
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Old 2012-03-07, 14:44   Link #785
itachi-san314
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I didn't say he died after that fight, we all know he walked away. He could have died after meeting Nagato during the second shinobi world war. But we still dont have any proof that he died 30 years ago its all speculation.
madara says himself that he died shortly after achieving rinnegan. we know he met or knew of nagato and that nagato got his rinnegan eyes. there isn't much leeway there considering that we also know roughly how old nagato was when he first used them. so hiking bear is pretty dead on with the timeline for madara's life i think
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Old 2012-03-07, 14:45   Link #786
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I didn't say he died after that fight, we all know he walked away. He could have died after meeting Nagato during the second shinobi world war. But we still dont have any proof that he died 30 years ago its all speculation.
No it's not speculation. Nagato was late 30s to 40 years in age. He got the Rinnegan from Madara when he was a kid (8-10). Madara said he died shortly after awakening the Rinnegan. So, we are looking at around 40-10=30 years ago as the time of Madara's death.

Also, you said Madara died in his 30s, which is definitely not right. That's about how old he was when he fought Hashirama. And he didn't die right after that fight.
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Old 2012-03-07, 15:41   Link #787
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^I thought Tobi gave the Rinnegan to Nagato? Or at least Tobi told Konan that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan. Was that changed in recent chapters?
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Old 2012-03-07, 15:46   Link #788
itachi-san314
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^I thought Tobi gave the Rinnegan to Nagato?
he did. at least he says he did which I believe to be true. so if tobi is madara using obito's body then it makes sense since he is basically madara. tobi being a part of himself that bridged the gap between his death and resurrection


edited out some stuff that didn't make sense. sorry
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Old 2012-03-07, 15:48   Link #789
Shiryuu
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^I thought Tobi gave the Rinnegan to Nagato? Or at least Tobi told Konan that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan. Was that changed in recent chapters?
He did, but Edo Madara did mention Nagato's name when he was summoned so he was at least there when it happened.
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Old 2012-03-07, 16:09   Link #790
Teru987
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so if tobi is madara using obito's body then it makes sense since he is basically madara. tobi being a part of himself that bridged the gap between his death and resurrection
Edo-Madara say he can rise form the dead and if had the rinnegan he could split himself in two, one being Madara the second being Tobi. He even says that he wasnt as powerful as he use to be.
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Old 2012-03-07, 16:14   Link #791
Akashin
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
he did. at least he says he did which I believe to be true. so if tobi is madara using obito's body then it makes sense since he is basically madara. tobi being a part of himself that bridged the gap between his death and resurrection


edited out some stuff that didn't make sense. sorry
Err, wouldn't Obito have been a baby (if that) when Nagato got the Rinnegan? Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying here?
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Old 2012-03-07, 16:18   Link #792
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He did, but Edo Madara did mention Nagato's name when he was summoned so he was at least there when it happened.
Plus, we already know that Madara was the second 6-path sage and Nagato was the third. It means Nagato got his eyes from Madara, as Tobi said.
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Old 2012-03-07, 16:26   Link #793
itachi-san314
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Err, wouldn't Obito have been a baby (if that) when Nagato got the Rinnegan? Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying here?
right so as hiking bear put it, madara would have had to put a seal inside obito at birth to awaken himself inside his body at a particular time. around when obito supposedly died and madara would have taken control of him is when tobi would have returned to nagato and inspired akatuki to begin

if that was the plan, it is pretty intricate, but as long as zetsu was around to ensure obito never died and madara's life force was preserved, which I'm assuming he was, then it was pretty dependable. I assume that because tobi's body is clearly infused with zetsu's white body.

if madara used anyone else but obito or if tobi isn't obito's body to put it another way, then there is no explanation for why his body is nearly completely replaced with zetsu's body. the boulder crushing most of it unexpectedly is a pretty good explanation to me at least
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Old 2012-03-08, 07:51   Link #794
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right so as hiking bear put it, madara would have had to put a seal inside obito at birth to awaken himself inside his body at a particular time. around when obito supposedly died and madara would have taken control of him is when tobi would have returned to nagato and inspired akatuki to begin

if that was the plan, it is pretty intricate, but as long as zetsu was around to ensure obito never died and madara's life force was preserved, which I'm assuming he was, then it was pretty dependable. I assume that because tobi's body is clearly infused with zetsu's white body.

if madara used anyone else but obito or if tobi isn't obito's body to put it another way, then there is no explanation for why his body is nearly completely replaced with zetsu's body. the boulder crushing most of it unexpectedly is a pretty good explanation to me at least
This theory is interesting but why would Zetsu not save Obito when he was half crushed?

It makes little sense that Zetsu would wait for more rocks to fall on Obito’s half crushed body and then dig him out when Black Zetsu could have tried to save Obito using his wood jutsu.

Tobi having a Zetsu arm can be explained by him being a person other than Obito who lost his arm in a fight or accident.
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Old 2012-03-08, 09:15   Link #795
itachi-san314
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This theory is interesting but why would Zetsu not save Obito when he was half crushed?

It makes little sense that Zetsu would wait for more rocks to fall on Obito’s half crushed body and then dig him out when Black Zetsu could have tried to save Obito using his wood jutsu.

Tobi having a Zetsu arm can be explained by him being a person other than Obito who lost his arm in a fight or accident.
My assumption there would be that the usage of obito's body needed to be kept top secret so zetsu had to wait until nobody could see obito (similar to using the ink smokescreen to switch with kisame during his fight with bee)

tobi also has at least both arms replaced by zetsu. his right was shown in his fight with fuu and torune. his left (lower portion) was seen in his fight with minato. its fairly safe to assume that a bunch more of him is zetsu too since minato injured him pretty badly in the torso

of course tobi could be someone else who was injured, but these apparent injuries coincide with a cave in of rocks
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Old 2012-03-08, 10:19   Link #796
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Do we even know that his body is that way because of injuries though? While that is a possibility (and just as likely as any other explanation, since we know next to nothing about it), it's equally likely Tobi merely wanted an indestructible body. Given the way he favors techniques that leaves himself completely untouched and unharmed, wanting a body that can't be easily destroyed could very well be something he'd want.

Like I said, though, we know very little about it. And without knowing more about it, the state of his body really isn't conclusive evidence of anything.
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Old 2012-03-08, 10:37   Link #797
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Do we even know that his body is that way because of injuries though? While that is a possibility (and just as likely as any other explanation, since we know next to nothing about it), it's equally likely Tobi merely wanted an indestructible body. Given the way he favors techniques that leaves himself completely untouched and unharmed, wanting a body that can't be easily destroyed could very well be something he'd want.

Like I said, though, we know very little about it. And without knowing more about it, the state of his body really isn't conclusive evidence of anything.
It's not the smoking gun, but it's definitely an important clue. And there are really only a handful of plausible Tobi Theories to choose from. In the case of Obito Theory, one would expect the body to be damaged. So, in that respect Obito Theory is predictive. Izuna Theory and Kagami Theory are non-predictive in this respect, because there's nothing in the manga that would cause us to believe that their bodies would partially be made of Zetsu material. As, for Zetsu Clone Theory, I think this theory is mostly based on the fact that Tobi's appendages are made of Zetsu material. However, when you look at it in the context of all the other clues, Zetsu Clone Theory is extremely flawed.

The idea is not to look at a single jigsaw piece and say that it doesn't amount to an entire puzzle. Instead, we can look at this piece of evidence and say that it fits nicely into the Obito Puzzle, and not so nicely into the Izuna, Kagami, etc Puzzles.
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Old 2012-03-08, 21:56   Link #798
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I think it also helps the obito theory to point out that all the elements of this supposed plan by madara have similar examples in the plot already making them possibilities for a ninja on his level. Minato was able to split his and someone else's soul, seal them in someone else and cause them to manifest at a certain trigger. so why not take it a step further and have that manifested soul take control of the host body?

also, minato was very close when this obito transition would have taken place. zetsu and madara couldn't have risked that seeing as how minato was strong enough to beat a prepared tobi during the kyuubi attack, let alone a freshly awakened tobi. it was imperative that they make everyone think obito died at that time or else minato would have ended things right then. zetsu couldn't afford to interfere with kakashi recieving the sharingan by that reason as well.

what I really want to see is tobi revert back to his alternate personality. perhaps when his identity finally comes out (if he is indeed obito) and around kakashi, guy and naruto then we will get a chance to see that side of him again. everything he's done the past couple years has been totally serious. that and possibly madara's soul has almost totally quelled obito's soul
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Old 2012-03-08, 22:41   Link #799
Akashin
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It's not the smoking gun, but it's definitely an important clue. And there are really only a handful of plausible Tobi Theories to choose from. In the case of Obito Theory, one would expect the body to be damaged. So, in that respect Obito Theory is predictive. Izuna Theory and Kagami Theory are non-predictive in this respect, because there's nothing in the manga that would cause us to believe that their bodies would partially be made of Zetsu material. As, for Zetsu Clone Theory, I think this theory is mostly based on the fact that Tobi's appendages are made of Zetsu material. However, when you look at it in the context of all the other clues, Zetsu Clone Theory is extremely flawed.

The idea is not to look at a single jigsaw piece and say that it doesn't amount to an entire puzzle. Instead, we can look at this piece of evidence and say that it fits nicely into the Obito Puzzle, and not so nicely into the Izuna, Kagami, etc Puzzles.
True. I wasn't saying it wasn't evidence in favor of the Obito theory, just that it isn't conclusive evidence, and that Tobi's body being injured wasn't the only possible explanation (which is what I thought was being implied).

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I think it also helps the obito theory to point out that all the elements of this supposed plan by madara have similar examples in the plot already making them possibilities for a ninja on his level. Minato was able to split his and someone else's soul, seal them in someone else and cause them to manifest at a certain trigger. so why not take it a step further and have that manifested soul take control of the host body?
Correct me if I'm wrong (though I don't think I am), but all Minato did at that time was seal some of his (and Kushina's) Chakra into Naruto. Far as I know soul-splitting played absolutely no role in it, whether that is theoretically possible or not. I suppose in theory Madara could have done the same thing to Obito, by your theory, but I don't think that would entail putting a piece of his soul into him.
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Old 2012-03-08, 22:57   Link #800
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That is what Minato did, not even the sage of six path split souls. All he did was split the chakra of the ten tail into 9. I don't think there was ever a soul splitting tech in naruto. Mu split himself in two to escape lethal blows. Minato split Kurama chakra in half with the Dead Demon Consuming Seal then added his and Kushina so that the seal would not be broken.
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