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View Poll Results: Who’s Under the Mask?
Madara 104 32.91%
Madara’s Son 14 4.43%
Madara’s Clone 30 9.49%
Madara’s Ghost/Soul/Poltergeist given shape... 33 10.44%
Obito 59 18.67%
Obito’s Body, but not really Obito... 55 17.41%
Someone else’s body (not Obito’s)... 21 6.65%
Zetsu’s Love Child... 23 7.28%
Tobirama/Sarutobi/or anyone with a 'tobi' in their name... 16 5.06%
Bruce Wayne or other… 69 21.84%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 316. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-03-28, 22:43   Link #941
itachi-san314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Still meta....

Despite the meta to the point of ridiculousness, here you raise an excellent point which I'd like to continue debating: Kakashi would recognize him.

Conversely, Obito would recognize Kakashi. He's been right there in plain sight for a fair amount of chapters, and Tobi never reacted to him in any way.
that is not correct. Tobi purposely showed Kakashi his sharingan. why? for someone wearing a mask to conceal things, isn't it odd he would show an enemy one of his surprises for no reason?

also, Tobi has never even tried to take kakashi's eye despite meeting him 4 times. why? he is an eye collector.

there is another purpose to a mask that you are not including in your deductions. his face may be horribly scared like a frankenstein-type character. he is a meld of uchiha and senju no matter who he turns out to be, so maybe he is just horribly disfigured under there. of course that would be part of obito theory, but it would also fit in with another character as well given tobi's broken/incomplete zetsu body is a fact.
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Old 2012-03-29, 02:11   Link #942
Dengar
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
that is not correct. Tobi purposely showed Kakashi his sharingan. why? for someone wearing a mask to conceal things, isn't it odd he would show an enemy one of his surprises for no reason?

also, Tobi has never even tried to take kakashi's eye despite meeting him 4 times. why? he is an eye collector.

there is another purpose to a mask that you are not including in your deductions. his face may be horribly scared like a frankenstein-type character. he is a meld of uchiha and senju no matter who he turns out to be, so maybe he is just horribly disfigured under there. of course that would be part of obito theory, but it would also fit in with another character as well given tobi's broken/incomplete zetsu body is a fact.
Now, I might be wrong on this part, so feel free to correct me, but I thought Tobi created Zetsu. O_o

As for why not take Kakashi's eye... There has been no evidence that this was due to sentimental value. Maybe it's because that would require effort? Also there are a whole bunch of other possible reasons, some of which might not even have occurred to any of us. I mean, he has plenty of eyes. And they're all from the Uchiha massacre.

As for why he showed Kakashi the sharingan, once again there are hundreds of possible reasons for this. For one, maybe he decided the sharingan didn't need to be secret anymore since he was about to reveal his (fake) identity to the world anyways.

All I'm trying to say here that it's still conjecture. I'm not actively trying to stop people from thinking it's Obito. I would, however like to point out the flawed arguments, which I did, and also point out that the less flawed arguments are all conjecture. I will "admit" that my theory is based on conjecture as well (this has never been a secret). You still do not have any amount of concrete proof for your theory, nor do you have any proof that discounts mine. If you are fine with not having this proof, there is no problem, just don't treat conjecture as proof.

At least you're not like the other guy who insists on giving meta explanations. I hate meta explanations. No really, I REALLY hate meta explanations. People should stop using them. Meta explanations are dumb.
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Old 2012-03-29, 05:41   Link #943
TimeMask
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Still meta....

Despite the meta to the point of ridiculousness, here you raise an excellent point which I'd like to continue debating: Kakashi would recognize him.

Conversely, Obito would recognize Kakashi. He's been right there in plain sight for a fair amount of chapters, and Tobi never reacted to him in any way.
If Tobi was Obito then this would probably mean Tobi put his mind in Obito’s body or is at least influencing / controlling Obito’s actions since Obito would have little reason to become evil.

Meaning that Obito’s body wouldn’t be able to react to Kakashi since it’s unlikely Obito would have enough control over his body or any control if it has Tobi’s mind in. However I'm not into the Tobi being Obito theory since Tobi could have chosen a better body then Obito's as many stronger Uchiha were alive at the time.

I think the reason Tobi doesn’t take Kakashi’s eye may just be that he plans to take the eye later when its convenient to him, like how he stopped Zetsu attacking Naruto at the kage summit since he wanted to fight in a better location.
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Old 2012-03-29, 08:39   Link #944
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Now, I might be wrong on this part, so feel free to correct me, but I thought Tobi created Zetsu. O_o
my understanding is that madara created him from the dna he stole from hashirama during their battle at VotE. I believe madara to be in some part tobi, so they are basically the same person until that is proven wrong and tobi is revealed to be konohamaru's dad or something retarded (jk I hope not..)

Quote:
As for why not take Kakashi's eye... There has been no evidence that this was due to sentimental value. Maybe it's because that would require effort? Also there are a whole bunch of other possible reasons, some of which might not even have occurred to any of us. I mean, he has plenty of eyes. And they're all from the Uchiha massacre.
very little effort for a ninja who fights on par with minato. tobi said himself, that kamui has no effect on him and that's kakashi's trump card. even if they are proven to not be the same eyes of obito, it is obvious that tobi's sharingan and kakashi's are similar in power, where tobi's is more advanced. so, I still think tobi would benefit greatly from having a spare considering izanagi seals a sharingan forever. what if he had to use 2 izanagis during his fight with konan, or if he has more sharingan on him like danzo did, then what if he had to use his main (kamui-type) eye for izanagi after using all them up, or what if it just got injured in battle with someone like minato or naruto. he would then be blinded and lose the ability to travel via-dimensions, unless he had a spare. kakashi's eye is much more valuable than the ones on his wall of sharingans, so I just don't see why he wouldn't take it. he's gone around the battle-field collecting artifacts as well. basically anything that will help his cause. a ms would help his cause. i agree that this can be solved in other ways, but i still might claim foul if it's a lame excuse

Quote:
As for why he showed Kakashi the sharingan, once again there are hundreds of possible reasons for this. For one, maybe he decided the sharingan didn't need to be secret anymore since he was about to reveal his (fake) identity to the world anyways.
I agree there are countless possibilities for this, but you said in your earlier post that "tobi never reacted to (kakashi) in any way". I'm just saying that he did. he freaked him out quite frankly. if tobi is obito's body and this is supposed to be a secret, then any more reaction to kakashi would give it away most likely.

Quote:
All I'm trying to say here that it's still conjecture. I'm not actively trying to stop people from thinking it's Obito. I would, however like to point out the flawed arguments, which I did, and also point out that the less flawed arguments are all conjecture. I will "admit" that my theory is based on conjecture as well (this has never been a secret). You still do not have any amount of concrete proof for your theory, nor do you have any proof that discounts mine. If you are fine with not having this proof, there is no problem, just don't treat conjecture as proof.
yea no prob. like I said before, if there was actual proof then we would all know who tobi was. for now its just a theory which has many pieces to its puzzle, despite not having a clear finished picture yet. and no matter what happens, I'll always claim that kishi intended us to think it was possibly obito. just the name alone suggests that. if after itachi died (assuming we didn't see his death under rocks or something) and then a new masked character suddenly appeared named "chaita", I would be thinking the same thing.
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Old 2012-03-29, 10:23   Link #945
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Kakashi's/Obito's MS is still an unsolved mystery. Firstly, it doesn't follow the traditional rule of obtaining MS. And secondly, the ability it grants is different from a normal MS. Actually, MS grants three abilities - Tsukuyomi from one eye, Amaterasu from the other eye, and Susanoo, which emanates from the body of the MS user.

The fact that Kakashi has MS, leads us to question what the 3 abilities of those MS eyes are. Kakashi only has one eye, and so it's reasonable to expect him to be able to perform only a single MS ability, namely Kamui.

But, if MS truly grants 3 abilities, we should expect there to be 2 more abilities associated with these eyes.

Enter Tobi.

Conveniently enough, Tobi has, time after time, demonstrated two unique abilities that seem to be tied to his Sharingan. One ability allows him to warp to another dimension while the other allows him to phase through solid objects. While we have never seen Tobi's MS, it is likely that he does have one. A person without MS would not be able to read the Uchiha monument, which Tobi seems to have done (recall his explanation of the Jyuubi at the kage meeting). We are never shown Tobi's MS for obvious reasons. The MS design is dead giveaway on the identity of the character.

So, with that in mind, the puzzle seems to come together nicely. We have 3 unaccounted for MS abilities - one from Kakashi and two from Tobi. If Tobi's right eye and Kakashi's left eye form a matching pair, then voila. We have MS eyes that grant 3 abilities as expected.

If we compare these abilities to a regular MS, we can see some parallelism. The abilities seem to be opposite in effect to a normal MS.

1. Kamui is similar to Amaterasu. The effect is generated at the focus of the user's gaze. For Amatersu, unquenchable black flame is generated. For Kamui, a barrier is generated which sucks objects into another dimension.

2. Tobi's Space-Time Migration distorts space, allows teleportation, and Tobi uses it to suck victims into a pocket dimension. The power emanates from Tobi's eye and I think it parallels Tsukuyomi. Rather than distort space, Tsukuyomi distorts the victim's perception of time.

3. Tobi's Intangibility allows him to be invulnerable to physical attacks for 5 minutes. Like Susanoo it is a nearly unbeatable defensive ability. But rather than block attacks, it does the opposite. It allows them to pass through.

Now, in the context of Obito Theory, this works out well. Tobi would receive two of the MS abilities because he has the right eye and body of Obito while Kakashi has just the left eye. The reason that Kakashi's Kamui wouldn't work against Tobi instantly becomes clear. The power of one MS eye can be nullified by the power of the opposite eye. We saw this with Sasuke. Sasuke's Tsukuyomi eye was able to negate Amaterasu.
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Last edited by Hiking_Bear; 2012-03-29 at 10:36.
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Old 2012-03-29, 20:30   Link #946
itachi-san314
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^ interesting post, but I thought susano'o was the power of having both MS eyes, not of the body. you're claiming that the 3rd defensive power is due to tobi having obito's body, but i think that he would need to have both of obito's eyes to do the 3rd ability based on my understanding of MS powers. each eye has 1 power and then they both combine to have the third. itachi said susano'o awoke in both his eyes, or something of the sort
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Old 2012-03-30, 06:40   Link #947
TimeMask
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
Kakashi's/Obito's MS is still an unsolved mystery. Firstly, it doesn't follow the traditional rule of obtaining MS. And secondly, the ability it grants is different from a normal MS. Actually, MS grants three abilities - Tsukuyomi from one eye, Amaterasu from the other eye, and Susanoo, which emanates from the body of the MS user.

The fact that Kakashi has MS, leads us to question what the 3 abilities of those MS eyes are. Kakashi only has one eye, and so it's reasonable to expect him to be able to perform only a single MS ability, namely Kamui.

But, if MS truly grants 3 abilities, we should expect there to be 2 more abilities associated with these eyes.

Enter Tobi.

Conveniently enough, Tobi has, time after time, demonstrated two unique abilities that seem to be tied to his Sharingan. One ability allows him to warp to another dimension while the other allows him to phase through solid objects. While we have never seen Tobi's MS, it is likely that he does have one. A person without MS would not be able to read the Uchiha monument, which Tobi seems to have done (recall his explanation of the Jyuubi at the kage meeting). We are never shown Tobi's MS for obvious reasons. The MS design is dead giveaway on the identity of the character.

So, with that in mind, the puzzle seems to come together nicely. We have 3 unaccounted for MS abilities - one from Kakashi and two from Tobi. If Tobi's right eye and Kakashi's left eye form a matching pair, then voila. We have MS eyes that grant 3 abilities as expected.

If we compare these abilities to a regular MS, we can see some parallelism. The abilities seem to be opposite in effect to a normal MS.

1. Kamui is similar to Amaterasu. The effect is generated at the focus of the user's gaze. For Amatersu, unquenchable black flame is generated. For Kamui, a barrier is generated which sucks objects into another dimension.

2. Tobi's Space-Time Migration distorts space, allows teleportation, and Tobi uses it to suck victims into a pocket dimension. The power emanates from Tobi's eye and I think it parallels Tsukuyomi. Rather than distort space, Tsukuyomi distorts the victim's perception of time.

3. Tobi's Intangibility allows him to be invulnerable to physical attacks for 5 minutes. Like Susanoo it is a nearly unbeatable defensive ability. But rather than block attacks, it does the opposite. It allows them to pass through.

Now, in the context of Obito Theory, this works out well. Tobi would receive two of the MS abilities because he has the right eye and body of Obito while Kakashi has just the left eye. The reason that Kakashi's Kamui wouldn't work against Tobi instantly becomes clear. The power of one MS eye can be nullified by the power of the opposite eye. We saw this with Sasuke. Sasuke's Tsukuyomi eye was able to negate Amaterasu.
Sasuke said you need 2 MS eyes to use the 3rd MS jutsu (susanoo) so if Tobi had Obito's eye he would only be able to use 1 MS jutsu.

Sasuke can now put out Itachi's Amaterasu which shows Tobi doesn't have to have Obito's eye to be able to stop kamui working on him since he can make his body phase through kamui like he does for other attacks.

We don't know how Kakashi gaioned MS so we can't tell if it follows the normal rule Itachi said to gain MS but Sasuke gained MS by killing Itachi which may not follow the rule either.
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Old 2012-03-30, 11:18   Link #948
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by TimeMask View Post
Sasuke can now put out Itachi's Amaterasu
refresh my memory please, but has sasuke put out itachi's amaterasu? i'm not sure if he can put out any amaterasu or just his own

Quote:
We don't know how Kakashi gaioned MS so we can't tell if it follows the normal rule Itachi said to gain MS but Sasuke gained MS by killing Itachi which may not follow the rule either.
for all intents and purposes, the way to gain MS has changed from 'killing your best friend' to 'experiencing complete sorrow' which is basically killing your best friend in loose terms. sasuke gained it after learning of itachi's burden, not after 'killing' him. but we still don't know what sorrow kakashi experienced to do it, or if he did in fact come up with another way. it would be pretty interesting if MS could also be developed the opposite way through complete joy, although I cant quite think of something kakashi would have done to satisfy that either. unless anko took pretty good care of him during the timeskip...

also, tobi's phasing technique doesn't have to be a sharingan technique. i'd assume that the vortex is since it spirals around his eye, but there doesn't seem to be an apparent connection between his phasing ability and his sharingan. it could just be a bloodline limit or a genjutsu or something like that. not necessarily a MS tech
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Old 2012-03-30, 11:35   Link #949
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^ interesting post, but I thought susano'o was the power of having both MS eyes, not of the body. you're claiming that the 3rd defensive power is due to tobi having obito's body, but i think that he would need to have both of obito's eyes to do the 3rd ability based on my understanding of MS powers. each eye has 1 power and then they both combine to have the third. itachi said susano'o awoke in both his eyes, or something of the sort
I don't know if they combine to form Susanoo. I think Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi must be achieved first in order to gain access to Susanoo. However, if we look at Itachi's fight against Sasuke, Itachi had lost vision in both of his eyes, rendering him incapable of performing Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu anymore. In fact, the Mangekyo Sharingan pattern had disappeared from his eyes completely. Despite that, he was still able to perform Susanoo. Susanoo is different from the other two MS abilities in that it seems to emanate from the user's body rather than from either the right eye, the left eye, or both eyes simultaneously.
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Old 2012-03-30, 12:23   Link #950
TimeMask
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refresh my memory please, but has sasuke put out itachi's amaterasu? i'm not sure if he can put out any amaterasu or just his own

for all intents and purposes, the way to gain MS has changed from 'killing your best friend' to 'experiencing complete sorrow' which is basically killing your best friend in loose terms. sasuke gained it after learning of itachi's burden, not after 'killing' him. but we still don't know what sorrow kakashi experienced to do it, or if he did in fact come up with another way. it would be pretty interesting if MS could also be developed the opposite way through complete joy, although I cant quite think of something kakashi would have done to satisfy that either. unless anko took pretty good care of him during the timeskip...

also, tobi's phasing technique doesn't have to be a sharingan technique. i'd assume that the vortex is since it spirals around his eye, but there doesn't seem to be an apparent connection between his phasing ability and his sharingan. it could just be a bloodline limit or a genjutsu or something like that. not necessarily a MS tech
Sasuke put his own amaterasu out so I think he can likely put out Itachi's amaterasu.

Sasuke indirectly killed Itachi so I think this led to him getting MS when he felt guilt over killing Itachi.

Meaning you may not need to kill your best friend to get MS unless Sasuke considered Itachi his best friend so Kakashi may have gotten MS just from guilt but maybe he killed Rin indirectly?
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Old 2012-03-30, 12:40   Link #951
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Sasuke put his own amaterasu out so I think he can likely put out Itachi's amaterasu.

Sasuke indirectly killed Itachi so I think this led to him getting MS when he felt guilt over killing Itachi.

Meaning you may not need to kill your best friend to get MS unless Sasuke considered Itachi his best friend so Kakashi may have gotten MS just from guilt but maybe he killed Rin indirectly?
This might sound mean but i actually want something bad to happen to kakashi like death or something. The reason being is because whenever most characters had been on the verge of death the manga / anime had shown their past mainly the important parts. If what TimeMask had said mightve been true then if kakashi was about to die then Obito's death would be shown again and maybe what happened to rin wouldve been shown.
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Old 2012-03-30, 13:19   Link #952
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It's funny that without "Madara" and "Bruce Wayne etc" choices, the poll nearly follows the normal distribution
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Old 2012-03-31, 01:56   Link #953
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by TimeMask View Post
Sasuke put his own amaterasu out so I think he can likely put out Itachi's amaterasu.
true, but not proven

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Sasuke indirectly killed Itachi so I think this led to him getting MS when he felt guilt over killing Itachi.
i dont think so. his MS only activated after hearing the story. it wasn't guilt he felt over 'killing' itachi since that is what itachi wanted. he felt sorrow over itachi having been put up to all that in the first place by the konoha elders.

Quote:
Meaning you may not need to kill your best friend to get MS unless Sasuke considered Itachi his best friend so Kakashi may have gotten MS just from guilt but maybe he killed Rin indirectly?
but if thats true then kakashi would have always had MS since obito died a long time ago. so did rin for that matter. the MS activation requires a current emotional peak in order to activate. memories alone are not enough
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Old 2012-03-31, 09:24   Link #954
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true, but not proven

i dont think so. his MS only activated after hearing the story. it wasn't guilt he felt over 'killing' itachi since that is what itachi wanted. he felt sorrow over itachi having been put up to all that in the first place by the konoha elders.

but if thats true then kakashi would have always had MS since obito died a long time ago. so did rin for that matter. the MS activation requires a current emotional peak in order to activate. memories alone are not enough
You're saying Sasuke didn't feel guilty over indirectly killing his brother?

Itachi may have wanted to die but knowing this wouldn't make Sasuke suddenly not regret having sped up his brothers death, he saw Itachi die a painful death because of him with Itachi covered in burns and blood.


Sasuke showed us that MS doesn't have to be activated as soon as you kill a person you care about as Saasuke's MS activated when he heard about Itachi.

So its possible that Kakashi recently heard something about Rin which made him feel guilt over Rin's death which activated his MS but this is just a theory.
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Old 2012-03-31, 11:39   Link #955
itachi-san314
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You're saying Sasuke didn't feel guilty over indirectly killing his brother?

Itachi may have wanted to die but knowing this wouldn't make Sasuke suddenly not regret having sped up his brothers death, he saw Itachi die a painful death because of him with Itachi covered in burns and blood.
sasuke has never expressed his feelings about that incident this way. he blames the elders for setting everything up to turn out the way it did. and he blames konoha for reaping the benefits of itachi's sacrifice. it's a typical narcissistic ideology which sasuke has always had


Quote:
Sasuke showed us that MS doesn't have to be activated as soon as you kill a person you care about as Saasuke's MS activated when he heard about Itachi.
right that's what I've been saying. it wasn't 'killing your best friend' it was experiencing extreme sorrow

Quote:
So its possible that Kakashi recently heard something about Rin which made him feel guilt over Rin's death which activated his MS but this is just a theory.
possible I guess, but there's no hints or proof of it at this point
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Old 2012-03-31, 12:42   Link #956
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sasuke has never expressed his feelings about that incident this way. he blames the elders for setting everything up to turn out the way it did. and he blames konoha for reaping the benefits of itachi's sacrifice. it's a typical narcissistic ideology which sasuke has always had


right that's what I've been saying. it wasn't 'killing your best friend' it was experiencing extreme sorrow

possible I guess, but there's no hints or proof of it at this point
To activate MS you kill someone important to you and even though Sasuke has never said "I regret killing you brother" we can presume he does regret it since when you care about someone you would naturally regret killing them.

If Sasuke doesn't regret indirectly killing Itachi that would suggest he wants Itachi dead which is unlikely. For Sasuke not to regret killing Itachi he would have to think he never fought with him even if he blames Konoha for setting in motion Itachi's death.
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Old 2012-03-31, 13:17   Link #957
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To activate MS you kill someone important to you and even though Sasuke has never said "I regret killing you brother" we can presume he does regret it since when you care about someone you would naturally regret killing them.

If Sasuke doesn't regret indirectly killing Itachi that would suggest he wants Itachi dead which is unlikely. For Sasuke not to regret killing Itachi he would have to think he never fought with him even if he blames Konoha for setting in motion Itachi's death.
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. he obviously doesn't want itachi dead, he just doesn't blame himself for his death. the fact of the matter is that sasuke couldn't have killed itachi in a normal fight. itachi was way better. it was all part of itachi's plan which was based off of the elders' plan in the first place. since sasuke is a 'genius' he would understand all the subtle nuances to their fight. it was to test sasuke and to pull orochimaru out of him, it wasn't a normal fight where both sides are trying to kill each other. since sasuke understands this, he does not blame himself. he feels sorrow for itachi's sacrifice and he feels hatred to the people who put him up to it. itachi's life was ruined well before that fight anyway. there was no going back to a good life. all sasuke did was play into itachi's self-destructive plan
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Old 2012-03-31, 16:29   Link #958
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I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. he obviously doesn't want itachi dead, he just doesn't blame himself for his death. the fact of the matter is that sasuke couldn't have killed itachi in a normal fight. itachi was way better. it was all part of itachi's plan which was based off of the elders' plan in the first place. since sasuke is a 'genius' he would understand all the subtle nuances to their fight. it was to test sasuke and to pull orochimaru out of him, it wasn't a normal fight where both sides are trying to kill each other. since sasuke understands this, he does not blame himself. he feels sorrow for itachi's sacrifice and he feels hatred to the people who put him up to it. itachi's life was ruined well before that fight anyway. there was no going back to a good life. all sasuke did was play into itachi's self-destructive plan
When Sasuke said he blames Konoha for Itachi's death it doesn't mean he has no regrets over fighting Itachi to the death.

Sasuke knows Konoha set in motion events that will lead to Itachi's death but Sasuke also knows he had a part in making Itachi's death happen.

A sharingan user regretting killing a person they care about may be 1 of the emotions that help unlock MS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314
i dont think so. his MS only activated after hearing the story. it wasn't guilt he felt over 'killing' itachi since that is what itachi wanted. he felt sorrow over itachi having been put up to all that in the first place by the konoha elders.
I never said when Sasuke gained MS, I was talking about how the guilt from indirectly killing Itachi could have helped him activate MS and like you said Sasuke would get MS after hearing the truth about Itachi possibly due to emotions like guilt.

Last edited by TimeMask; 2012-04-01 at 14:25.
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Old 2012-04-01, 13:40   Link #959
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
for all intents and purposes, the way to gain MS has changed from 'killing your best friend' to 'experiencing complete sorrow'
No.
Quote:
sasuke gained it after learning of itachi's burden, not after 'killing' him.
We first saw his MS after the revelation but he had already unlocked it since Itachi's death. Hence why Itachi expected him to have an EMS but didn't know Sasuke knew the truth.
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Old 2012-04-01, 14:56   Link #960
itachi-san314
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
No.
sasuke didn't kill his closest friend. neither did kakashi... and probably not shisui either since it was most likely itachi

Quote:
We first saw his MS after the revelation but he had already unlocked it since Itachi's death. Hence why Itachi expected him to have an EMS but didn't know Sasuke knew the truth.
are you just assuming he unlocked it? we never saw it until the revelation. hence the reveal that sasuke had it
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