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View Poll Results: The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya - Rating
Perfect 10 235 64.56%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 93 25.55%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 25 6.87%
7 out of 10 : Good 7 1.92%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 0.82%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.27%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 364. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-01-04, 20:38   Link #561
aegisofrime
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Originally Posted by Khu View Post
It's probably just me, but I found the opening to be...weirdly boring. I thought there'd be more in there, but it's probably because I've read the novels ^^;

And/or that was the decided effect they wanted for the opening, since the rest is kinda batshit crazy XD
Somebody stated earlier in the thread (was it Gamer_2k4?) that KyoAni probably did it intentionally, to contrast Kyon's life before and after the transformation.
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Old 2011-01-04, 21:16   Link #562
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Originally Posted by aegisofrime View Post
Somebody stated earlier in the thread (was it Gamer_2k4?) that KyoAni probably did it intentionally, to contrast Kyon's life before and after the transformation.
It would give the fans a good idea on how things went before the transformation, and how Kyon deeply wanted it back.
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Old 2011-01-04, 21:35   Link #563
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dunno if anyone said this, but its not clear to me why nagato chose such a roundabout way of doing things. japanese logic is japanese...OR...all mangakas are at the mental level of high school kids. come on, it would have been easier to just ASK kyon what kind of world would he like to live in instead of throwing the poor chap into shock. AND THEN having him play a stupid game to see if he actually wanted to stay in the other world. which btw was with a time limit, which makes no sense cause kyon doesn't have enough time to make a decision. yes in the movie it was conveniently made so that he HAS enough time, but for me that is unbelievable. he would have needed to explore the world a little better to make a decision.
and also i kinda can't comprehend why nagato turned herself into another person. that = killing herself. and you wouldn't do that for someone you barely know. so she loved kyon or smth? enough to sacrifice her memories? but then again, why couldn't she just keep them and pretend she erased them?
the movie is good, but the plot holes are bugging me...
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Old 2011-01-04, 21:43   Link #564
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Originally Posted by idiffer View Post
dunno if anyone said this, but its not clear to me why nagato chose such a roundabout way of doing things. japanese logic is japanese...OR...all mangakas are at the mental level of high school kids. come on, it would have been easier to just ASK kyon what kind of world would he like to live in instead of throwing the poor chap into shock. AND THEN having him play a stupid game to see if he actually wanted to stay in the other world. which btw was with a time limit, which makes no sense cause kyon doesn't have enough time to make a decision. yes in the movie it was conveniently made so that he HAS enough time, but for me that is unbelievable. he would have needed to explore the world a little better to make a decision.
and also i kinda can't comprehend why nagato turned herself into another person. that = killing herself. and you wouldn't do that for someone you barely know. so she loved kyon or smth? enough to sacrifice her memories? but then again, why couldn't she just keep them and pretend she erased them?
the movie is good, but the plot holes are bugging me...
Nagato barely knew "John Smith" it was only Haruhi that knew about him, which triggered the event that actually got him to go back to the time he was before. Asking Kyon would have been sorta pointless, he would have probably been comical about it and say "Yeah, as long as I can get away from all this annoyance" or probably be clueless about it and say "I don't know, why do you ask" and with all the time that Nagato has been with Kyon, he knew all too well that she was an alien. So Nagato with her feelings for Kyon, created an alternative world for him to live in. Trying to see if he would approve of Nagato's human personality over her alien personality. Also seeing if he really wanted to be with Haruhi's world, where he was constantly dragged into things that he din't want to. But had to because if he din't it would cause things to go really wrong. So it was something Nagato had to confirm for herself on what Kyon exactly wants. Does he want a world where he was constantly dragged around? Or does he want a quiet, peaceful life with Nagato? Well it would have been better if he wasn't alienated from his friend Mikuru. But yeah, it was all based on Nagato's hidden feelings that she couldn't erase because she treasured them so. She probably put a time limit on it because she din't know of it, or that would be long enough for Kyon to make his decision.

Or that is how I saw it.
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Old 2011-01-04, 21:57   Link #565
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1) in the end kyon still got dragged around, this time by nagato. lol.
2) its always better to ask a person what he wants. its your type of "mind reading" that prevents ppl from being simple and effective in their interactions. you don't know what kyon would have answered. AND that is not the point...
3) john smith ???? i was talking about kyon...its not like a human interface would fall in love with a petty human just by being near him during club activities and not talking to him. they had like 1 or 2 conversations that can be called remotely normal.
4) what was the point in kyon approving of nagato's human personality? IF she lost all her memories. its a different person. it can be said that it is not nagato anymore.
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Old 2011-01-04, 22:45   Link #566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idiffer View Post
3) john smith ???? i was talking about kyon...its not like a human interface would fall in love with a petty human just by being near him during club activities and not talking to him. they had like 1 or 2 conversations that can be called remotely normal.
4) what was the point in kyon approving of nagato's human personality? IF she lost all her memories. its a different person. it can be said that it is not nagato anymore.
John Smith is Kyon.... Did I misunderstand your post? Also love can happen on strange occasions, so anything can happen.

She still wanted what was best for Kyon in her own opinion, so she simply recreated the world in an image that would probably approve with Kyon.
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Old 2011-01-04, 23:41   Link #567
aegisofrime
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Originally Posted by idiffer View Post
dunno if anyone said this, but its not clear to me why nagato chose such a roundabout way of doing things. japanese logic is japanese...OR...all mangakas are at the mental level of high school kids. come on, it would have been easier to just ASK kyon what kind of world would he like to live in instead of throwing the poor chap into shock. AND THEN having him play a stupid game to see if he actually wanted to stay in the other world. which btw was with a time limit, which makes no sense cause kyon doesn't have enough time to make a decision. yes in the movie it was conveniently made so that he HAS enough time, but for me that is unbelievable. he would have needed to explore the world a little better to make a decision.
and also i kinda can't comprehend why nagato turned herself into another person. that = killing herself. and you wouldn't do that for someone you barely know. so she loved kyon or smth? enough to sacrifice her memories? but then again, why couldn't she just keep them and pretend she erased them?
the movie is good, but the plot holes are bugging me...
Nagaru Tanigawa isn't a mangaka, he writes light novels. First fail there.

The time limit is probably because, as I observed earlier in this topic, of her observation of Kyon during Endless Eight. That man is one hell of a procrastinator. If there wasn't a time limit he would have just gotten used to the new world... Instead of being forced to decide which one he liked better. I personally think 2 days is just right.

Also, as for exploring the world. Notice how the keys were to get the SOS-Dan members into the clubroom. To me, this had a special significance. It gave Kyon a very good comparison of "Before" and "After". Did he like a SOS-Dan made up of normal people, or one with Espers, Time Travelers and Aliens?

As for Yuki killing herself... You can think of it that way. But even so, perhaps she is THAT selfless? And I think Yuki knows Kyon well enough. After all, she spent 595 years together with him

It also begs the question of where Alt!Yuki got her personality from. If it was the emotions that grew within her, isolated and condensed into Alt!Yuki, then part of Alien Yuki still lives on.

There really aren't that many plotholes, you probably just need to watch it again, as it seems your understanding isn't complete. Early on in life when I started writing stories, I realized that questions like, "Why didn't character A do this, instead of that" are pointless. Pretty soon you have to justify every action a character took, instead of writing a good story. Why did you eat what you had for breakfast this morning? You probably just felt like it, instead of thinking hard about it.
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Old 2011-01-04, 23:55   Link #568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisofrime View Post
Nagaru Tanigawa isn't a mangaka, he writes light novels. First fail there.

The time limit is probably because, as I observed earlier in this topic, of her observation of Kyon during Endless Eight. That man is one hell of a procrastinator. If there wasn't a time limit he would have just gotten used to the new world... Instead of being forced to decide which one he liked better. I personally think 2 days is just right.

Also, as for exploring the world. Notice how the keys were to get the SOS-Dan members into the clubroom. To me, this had a special significance. It gave Kyon a very good comparison of "Before" and "After". Did he like a SOS-Dan made up of normal people, or one with Espers, Time Travelers and Aliens?

As for Yuki killing herself... You can think of it that way. But even so, perhaps she is THAT selfless? And I think Yuki knows Kyon well enough. After all, she spent 595 years together with him

It also begs the question of where Alt!Yuki got her personality from. If it was the emotions that grew within her, isolated and condensed into Alt!Yuki, then part of Alien Yuki still lives on.

There really aren't that many plotholes, you probably just need to watch it again, as it seems your understanding isn't complete. Early on in life when I started writing stories, I realized that questions like, "Why didn't character A do this, instead of that" are pointless. Pretty soon you have to justify every action a character took, instead of writing a good story. Why did you eat what you had for breakfast this morning? You probably just felt like it, instead of thinking hard about it.
mangaka, writer - doesn't matter. no fail there. just me being drunk...
and i did write a 20 page chapter of my novel (authonomy.com). and before that i constructed the whole universe and thought out the reasons for most of the char's actions SPECIFICALLY so nobody could point a finger and say "ha, there's a plot hole. char's do things against their nature".
2) whats so bad about getting used to the new world? if he does - then...lol, profit, good for him.
3) yeah lol, kyon accidentally stumbled upon the sos dan in the new world. he didn't even do anything. he didn't KNOW what to do. that is another miss on yuki's part. (not enough clues)
4) part of alien yuki...so what? she cant remember anything. point is moot.memories are EVERYTHING. no memories - no person.
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Old 2011-01-05, 00:19   Link #569
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I don't have time to address all your points as I'm preparing to go to school now, but I do want to argue one point.

We do not always think through all our actions. If you have learned social psychology there's such a thing called "Cognitive Economy". When confronted with stimulus, depending on how important it is and how much time we have, we leave it to automatic processing. This automatic processing is determined by our personality.

For example, if I were queuing up at McDonald's and I just want to have my lunch really quick, I might just go for what I always have, a Double Cheeseburger. I don't think it through, I just say to myself, "Let's have a double cheeseburger".

My point? The most logical action available to a person may not be what he chooses. In fact, that course of action might not even be apparent to a person. Lastly, The most logical action doesn't always make the best story.
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Old 2011-01-05, 00:45   Link #570
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Originally Posted by aegisofrime View Post
I don't have time to address all your points as I'm preparing to go to school now, but I do want to argue one point.

We do not always think through all our actions. If you have learned social psychology there's such a thing called "Cognitive Economy". When confronted with stimulus, depending on how important it is and how much time we have, we leave it to automatic processing. This automatic processing is determined by our personality.

For example, if I were queuing up at McDonald's and I just want to have my lunch really quick, I might just go for what I always have, a Double Cheeseburger. I don't think it through, I just say to myself, "Let's have a double cheeseburger".

My point? The most logical action available to a person may not be what he chooses. In fact, that course of action might not even be apparent to a person. Lastly, The most logical action doesn't always make the best story.
example relevant to haruhi needed...
its the authors job to make a logical action interesting in a story. ...and most seem to fail, i've noticed. often for the sake of the plot going forward, the author will make the char's do very stupid things. for me an illogical action does not make a good story. the irony is, most times it tries to come off as logical and serious, while taking its viewers for fools. (its a whole other story if the anime is a parody or just doesn't take itself seriously (gurren lagann)) a good example of logical-dramatical is princess mononoke. its frickin hard to tell who is the bad guy there at first...
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Old 2011-01-05, 01:01   Link #571
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I have no problem with that as long as the discussion doesn't get into detail of why he went back, the motivations of those who went with him, and what happened after Kyon blacked out.
None of which were we discussing.

Only the metaphysical necessity of Kyon doing what we saw him doing, and the probable catastrophic results if he doesn't.
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Old 2011-01-05, 01:09   Link #572
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If the discussion can be kept within the events depicted in the movie, then I have no problems with it.

And it might help to use properly labeled spoiler tags for any speculation of those probable catastrophic results...
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Old 2011-01-05, 14:55   Link #573
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Can anyone help me identify the instrumental music that plays during the scene with Kyon and Nagato on the rooftop when it started to snow?
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Old 2011-01-05, 16:06   Link #574
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I honestly found this movie to be utterly fantastic. I wasn't sure whether I should watch it or not at first, being as I liked the first season and was incredibly frustrated (as I'm sure many were) by the second season. But I decided that I had nothing better to do and to watch it anyway.

I wasn't disappointed in the slightest. It had the usual great art, thankfully leaning less towards K-ON!'s as S2 seemed to, and the animation we'd all expect from KyoAni by now. That didn't ever worry me. What was a great surprise to me (having not read the light novels nor the manga and only really following the anime) was the fantastic story that the movie had. Creative, not just a moefest, had some great turns and the possibility that it didn't even happen at all. Though we all know it did. Looking forward to more after that and hopefully season 3 (or another movie) will be as good as this and give some hope to the series.
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Old 2011-01-05, 17:05   Link #575
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Can anyone help me identify the instrumental music that plays during the scene with Kyon and Nagato on the rooftop when it started to snow?
It's titled Gymnopedie No. 1, by famous composer Erik Satie. It's actually used a number of times during the film.

-When Nagato is telling Kyon about how they first met in the Library.
-After Nagato tells Kyon who the culprit is.
-& there's an orchestra version used when Nagato beings to change the world.

All versions can be found on the official soundtrack release of the film.
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Old 2011-01-05, 17:57   Link #576
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I highlighted the key words here: "in the first place".

Why do you think Kyon needs to go back in time BEFORE he was stabbed?

That sentence makes no sense! You only need cause to happen before the effect, if you don't have time travel.

Let me explain it this way.

A Time traveller was born in 3000AD. He went into a time machine and appeared in 1000AD. There, he was killed and died.

But how could he have died? He wasn't born yet in 1000AD! How could someone die, if they weren't born "in the first place"?

And here lies your logic flaw. That something has to happen in a fixed order. If you have a time machine, you can die at a time before you are born. The argument that "Kyon can't save himself" is the same one as "You can't die before you are born". And the argument boils down to "it is not possible unless you have a time machine".

Thus, if you HAVE a time machine, you can save your younger self from death if that was factored in the time loop. "When" something happened, does not matter, when you can manipulate time itself.

Without a time machine, we are trapped in the timestream like a quadriplegic is trapped on his bed. Someone who can walk, would have no problem walking out of the hospital. But for a quadriplegic the exit of the hospital might as well be in another galaxy. If you have the right tools, you can manipulate time. That's all.
I don't think that's the problem that some people here (including myself) have with the paradox. The fact that he can die in AD1000 is entirely plausible since it just means that the timeline for himself is 3000AD birth -> Back to the past -> Death. It still makes logical sense.

What we don't understand is how...

Someone dies (here Kyon is dying)
Somehow a future version of him - comes back to prevent the death.

That's just illogical.

It'd be different if...

Some dies...
A future version of him (one from a different reality where he didn't originally die) comes back to saves him is plausible.

So what is it?
Can people basically save themselves after they have died?

The only possible logical explanation (which fits with the idea of time travel) is that Kyon dies. Someone travels back in time to inform him that he will die in the future. The person from the past goes to future to prevent himself from being stabbed which will produce a completely new timeline and essentially erasing the old one where he got stabbed.

I'm just going to ignore all the discussion about if he wasn't stabbed, then why would they need to go back in time to prevent him being stabbed. The point is that it occured. It existed at one point.
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Old 2011-01-05, 18:16   Link #577
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Originally Posted by idiffer View Post
dunno if anyone said this, but its not clear to me why nagato chose such a roundabout way of doing things. japanese logic is japanese...OR...all mangakas are at the mental level of high school kids. come on, it would have been easier to just ASK kyon what kind of world would he like to live in instead of throwing the poor chap into shock. AND THEN having him play a stupid game to see if he actually wanted to stay in the other world. which btw was with a time limit, which makes no sense cause kyon doesn't have enough time to make a decision. yes in the movie it was conveniently made so that he HAS enough time, but for me that is unbelievable. he would have needed to explore the world a little better to make a decision.
and also i kinda can't comprehend why nagato turned herself into another person. that = killing herself. and you wouldn't do that for someone you barely know. so she loved kyon or smth? enough to sacrifice her memories? but then again, why couldn't she just keep them and pretend she erased them?
the movie is good, but the plot holes are bugging me...
Hmm. I personally don't think asking Kyon what world he'd prefer would do much as it's near impossible to fathom an existance that doesn't exist for yourself. Having said that, she should have made the variables a little better if asking whether he wanted this world to exist or not given that she essentially made it so that Kyon had no contact with everyone. It would have made more sense for her to create an existance with him knowing Mikaru/Koizumi/Haruhi etc without all the insane amount of magic.

It kind of makes me wonder whether she truly understands human logic... since the first thing one would normally do in a state of shock is to find a way to revert things back to normal. As for erasing herself... if she was herself, that'd mean that she'd attempt to stop Kyon from reverting the world back to normal (given that it's her wish - she wants this world.) but for some reason she trusts Kyon enough to let him decide what to do with her and everyone else's fate.

Kinda reminds me about all those times where she's asked him for permission to do stuff. What's up with that anyhow? Why does she look up to Kyon in that sense? As some sort of authority...
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Old 2011-01-06, 02:26   Link #578
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Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
It's titled Gymnopedie No. 1, by famous composer Erik Satie. It's actually used a number of times during the film.

-When Nagato is telling Kyon about how they first met in the Library.
-After Nagato tells Kyon who the culprit is.
-& there's an orchestra version used when Nagato beings to change the world.

All versions can be found on the official soundtrack release of the film.
Thank you! I recognize the melody from somewhere, just not from the movie itself. Tried to SoundHound it, but it did not work.

Thanks again!
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Old 2011-01-06, 13:15   Link #579
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Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
It's titled Gymnopedie No. 1, by famous composer Erik Satie. It's actually used a number of times during the film.
And also used famously back in the 70s in commercials for a product called Geritol.

Yes, I'm old...
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Old 2011-01-06, 13:53   Link #580
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Originally Posted by KeroKai View Post
Can people basically save themselves after they have died?
The point is that he didn't die because somebody saved him. That "somebody" just happened to be his future self, that's all.

Look, Mikuru isn't even born yet, so how could she be serving Kyon tea? Because she is SUPPOSE to be serving Kyon tea, so her adult self sent her younger self to Kyon's time.

If Kyon died then no one would have saved him. But he didn't, so he was saved. The only problem was that Kyon did not immediately perform the rescue mission after the fact, but instead delayed it until later. This causes problems, because if he end up dying for ANY other reason before he could perform his own rescue mission, then he wouldn't just die; he would rip a hole in space-time by creating a paradox.

Quote:
A future version of him (one from a different reality where he didn't originally die) comes back to saves him is plausible.
That's not what happened. So it is irreverent. What happened was that Kyon was saved by himself in a pre-determined event. It's like borrowing money to pay a debt; you didn't "make" money, you just borrowed it, and you have to pay it back later. Kyon was never meant to die at any stage of the film, because Adult Mikuru knew the rescue was going to happen.
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