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View Poll Results: The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya - Rating
Perfect 10 234 64.46%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 93 25.62%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 25 6.89%
7 out of 10 : Good 7 1.93%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 0.83%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.28%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 363. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2010-04-14, 03:05   Link #141
4545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
If I had any idea what you were talking about I'd have more to say than this. I guess that means you sure got me on this one didn't you.
Your initial point was that Haruhi has never displayed the ability to "create something out of nothing". I countered with a reference to the ponytail quote because it occurred when Haruhi created a completely new universe that consisted of only herself and Kyon. I thought the reference would be obvious, but I clearly overestimated your knowledge of the series.

Quote:
I don't buy that for one second actually. People keep using that as a means to link Endless Eight to what happened in this movie, but that's something that can only be done purely at the will of the viewer since Nagato showed zero emotion throughout that whole affair. I choose not to attach feelings to a character based on something that might not actually be there or related to a specific event. That's the sort of thing fan-fiction is for, not for canon which is what I'm concerned about.
If you actually believe that there was no visible sign that Yuki was breaking down during endless eight, I seriously think you're just seeing what you want to see.

I can point to numerous screen caps that blatantly show Yuki being visibly depressed by the ordeal. There is also the fact that Kyon freaking mentions how "Nagato doesn't look right" and asks her "are you okay?" EVERY FREAKIN EPISODE of EE!

Seriously, for a guy who can nitpick and whine about the most trivial and superficial of details about the disappearance movie, I am completely dumbfounded by your lack of attention to really basic plot points already established in the series.

Quote:
No but I didn't really expect her to steal the show out from under the title character the way she did in Disappearance. Like I said if Nagato can just do whatever to Haruhi then it makes the intrigue of the character just that much lesser.
Well, that's just, like, your OPINION, man.

Quote:
The real question I'm asking is why undermine your title character's intrigue like that after going to all the trouble to pose the god or not question like Koizumi did in the first novel?
The charm of Haruhi's character has never been dependent upon whether or not she was "God" or not. Koizumi was just throwing out a hypothesis when he referenced Haruhi as "God" anyway. People just latched on to his hypothesis because it was the easiest to understand.

Quote:
After all the entire basis of Haruhiism and a large chunk of the franchises popularity seems to be built along with the faction that believes she's god incarnate in the franchises universe and what Nagato did pretty much dispels that idea completely.
Again, this is your opinion. I've always considered "Haruhiism" as an inside joke between Haruhi fans. I doubt anyone really takes it that seriously, but then again I might be projecting.

Quote:
I thought it was because the whole quiet bookish girl thing was a popular moe fetish to be honest.
Well this speaks more about your obsession with moe more than anything else.

Quote:
Is that like how the entire argument that Nagato acted the way she did in the movie because of Endless Eight was an assumption or are we talking in different terms here.
Spoiler for movie spoilers:


Quote:
Spoiler for movie spoilers:
Spoiler for movie spoilers:


Quote:
Anyway I completely botched what I meant to say in that quote so it doesn't really matter I suppose.

The bit about responding to the characters popularity was an aside because I know that kind of thing happens all the time over there, the cheated feeling is definitely there because the intrigue about Haruhi's powers and why the Data Entity would want to study her are kind of gone now that it's been shown that she's hardly all that powerful at all compared to Nagato or the Data Entity. If that's the course they want to pursue now then so be it. I'm just saying that it strikes me as inconsistent with the way they were building her abilities in the first novel. The whole desperately trying to understand her bit that the Data Entity has going on takes a blow when you can just toss her into an alternate reality and completely rewrite her memories from beyond a certain point in time. Again I guess my concerns just aren't the same as the core fanbases here.
We've already gone through this. Haruhi has the unique ability to create vast amounts of data out of nothing, and has already displayed this ability. Nagato and the Data Entity, have never shown the capacity to create data out of nothing, and have admitted to being incapable of doing so. For this reason, the Data Entity wants to OBSERVE Haruhi so that they can learn more about her unique skills. Brain-washing her into oblivion such that she doesn't have her powers anymore doesn't help them achieve their goal.
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Old 2010-04-14, 03:55   Link #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4545 View Post
Your initial point was that Haruhi has never displayed the ability to "create something out of nothing". I countered with a reference to the ponytail quote because it occurred when Haruhi created a completely new universe that consisted of only herself and Kyon. I thought the reference would be obvious, but I clearly overestimated your knowledge of the series.


If you actually believe that there was no visible sign that Yuki was breaking down during endless eight, I seriously think you're just seeing what you want to see.

I can point to numerous screen caps that blatantly show Yuki being visibly depressed by the ordeal. There is also the fact that Kyon freaking mentions how "Nagato doesn't look right" and asks her "are you okay?" EVERY FREAKIN EPISODE of EE!

Seriously, for a guy who can nitpick and whine about the most trivial and superficial of details about the disappearance movie, I am completely dumbfounded by your lack of attention to really basic plot points already established in the series.


Well, that's just, like, your OPINION, man.


The charm of Haruhi's character has never been dependent upon whether or not she was "God" or not. Koizumi was just throwing out a hypothesis when he referenced Haruhi as "God" anyway. People just latched on to his hypothesis because it was the easiest to understand.


Again, this is your opinion. I've always considered "Haruhiism" as an inside joke between Haruhi fans. I doubt anyone really takes it that seriously, but then again I might be projecting.


Well this speaks more about your obsession with moe more than anything else.



Spoiler for movie spoilers:



Spoiler for movie spoilers:




We've already gone through this. Haruhi has the unique ability to create vast amounts of data out of nothing, and has already displayed this ability. Nagato and the Data Entity, have never shown the capacity to create data out of nothing, and have admitted to being incapable of doing so. For this reason, the Data Entity wants to OBSERVE Haruhi so that they can learn more about her unique skills. Brain-washing her into oblivion such that she doesn't have her powers anymore doesn't help them achieve their goal.
For all the explaining about how so apparently unaware I am of the series canon (it's not that I don't understand or follow it, it's just that I don't really accept how it tries to simplify metaphysics and utilize them in an otaku-marketed package. Like for example implying but never really stating or bother to define that/how creation is different and beyond the grasp of time/space manipulation or where creation starts and manipulation ends) it amazes me how people still don't get what I'm trying to say about a controlled experiment.

The Data Entity wouldn't have to cancel out her powers, it could press her into a controlled reality where it can induce her use of them. Why is this so hard to understand? I'm not saying it's definite that it would or should, but that since it could I don't understand why it has to send Nagato and Asakura and rope Kyon, Koizumi and Mikuru into this whole grand scheme. Do you see what I'm saying? It means there's little reason for this entire absurd SOS-Dan scenario to exist as it does except that I guess now Kyon wants it too.

These are the problems you run into when you try to run a metaphysical influenced series and then simplify the heck out of the concept to fit what are pretty much just popular tropes and scenarios. You get a lot of what-ifs, woulds, coulds and questions that ought to be answered before you can start building any attachment to the scenario. It's not even that it's all that complex, it's just a case of mysterious character/plotting syndrome where the appeal/hook is supposed to be in denying the information the viewer would need to sort out the full extent of the series canon. However it's a style of writing and plotting that serves to frustrate more than build attachment when utilized as long as it has been with the franchise (the equivalent of about 35 episodes) while still failing to make any progress in defining why things are the way they are in this universe. It also makes me feel that they haven't really put too much thought into the metaphysical and concepts side of the series and are just using them to be trendy. All turnoffs....

Try and take it this way, a lot of people spend time going over how they are so attached to this series and how much the events and emotions mean to them, I'm basically doing the opposite and going over and trying to explain the reasons why I still haven't been able to build a complete attachment to Haruhi when I know the potential is there. There are still just too few moments of what I would call true breakthrough cleverness and dialogue amidst a lot of otaku pandering fair (what will Haruhi dress Mikuru up in next? Haruhi being brazen about undressing, look at Yuki blush etc.) and Kyonic sarcasm, self-commentary and moping that is just going to result in him doing whatever best helps the SOS-Dan and his friends there anyway.

By the way, the Kyonic Sarcasm and moping I felt dominated the tone of this series far to much during it's near 2 and a 3/4 hours. There are entire stretches of this film that, now that I think of it, were just long rambling soliloquy's about how messed up everything is. I kind of like to see less present tense talking and coping and a little more doing and progression if the anime series is going to continue on from here lest the series concepts really start to become stale.
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Old 2010-04-14, 06:39   Link #143
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
As for the Data Entity being omniscient....if they were...why would they need observers in the first place? This would indicate they are not omniscient. They are aliens of some sort. Highly advanced, but they are short of being omniscient. That might be part of what they are after though that is hard to confirm. Partly because Yuki doesn't say that and she says that verbal comunications with Kyon might result in errors in the data being given to Kyon. Also his limited understanding of the concepts limits us since he's the one giving us the story.
The Data Entity is technically omniscient. But because they have a completely different physical existence in relation to humans, they don't understand what they see even if they observe.

Yuki's role is essentially the translator; a being who is composed of both data and a physical body.

To put this in spoiler context related to future books...
Spoiler for future books:


Another example I can give is from the Discworld novel series. The major villains in that world, the Auditors, can see absolutely everything. But they can't read human minds, because all they could see is the individual electrons jumping around the brain cells.

Seeing is different from understanding.
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Old 2010-04-14, 09:11   Link #144
ac195
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Yuki's role is essentially the translator; a being who is composed of both data and a physical body.
In a nutshell... there will be things "lost in translation."
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Old 2010-04-14, 09:46   Link #145
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Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Old 2010-04-14, 10:07   Link #146
roankun
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People, why talk about spoilers here when there is a spoiler thread? It hurts for people like me who have downloaded the subbed but vowed not to watch it :P

(then again, should i watch it because i cant understand japanese and still haven't read the novels and i might go to japan if my visa is approved?)
i still can't believe i might spend $1600 for a three day stay in Tokyo... and i'm already spending $23 just for the visa application. -_-
the things you do for your goddess.
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Old 2010-04-14, 13:11   Link #147
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Okay, as you can see, I completed the thread split, and this is now the "Impressions & Review" thread for the movie.

To the point above, everyone please read the opening post for important information about spoilers in this thread. I'll paste it below for the lazy:

RULES ABOUT SPOILERS:
  • If it happens in the movie, it isn't a spoiler, but...
  • You should probably use spoiler tags for major events or revelations in the movie as a safety precaution. Don't be inconsiderate and give away the ending or anything.
  • If it's happened in content that already aired as part of the TV series (either "season"), it isn't a spoiler.
  • Any relevant comparisons to other anime series should be in spoiler tags.
  • Things that happen in future novels are not allowed in this thread. If you want to discuss that, we have a spoiler thread

For more information, please consult our Spoiler Policy. Please report any violations using the "Report Post" button. (Note: I know that we just moved threads and I'm just clarifying this now, so I'm not going to go back and infract old posts right away. But the bit about no future event spoilers is a global AnimeSuki policy and applies everywhere, so everyone should already have known better on that point. Please be more mindful going forward.)
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Old 2010-04-14, 19:13   Link #148
Ice Block
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Which is why I said that it makes no sense to just let her do her own thing unpredictably. If it can why not alter reality a little and work her into a controlled experiment where they can learn about her at an accelerated rate. Keep pressing her into situations like Asakura was going to try to in the first season by killing Kyon and analyze the data.
First of all, do you really know what a controlled experiment is? Think about it for a moment.

Alright, I assume you're done thinking. Scientifically speaking, a controlled experiment alone is useless. You need a set of experiments. Yes, that extra "s" makes a world of difference. Experiments are used to test out hypotheses, and thus must be reasonably repeatable, and should best be performed on a closed system. Now, if you look at the series, which set of episodes best fit this description? That's right, Endless Eight. That was the closest thing the DITE had to an experiment, and best of all, the subject had unknowingly imposed it upon herself (another key element of behavioral experiments -- subjects should not know the full methodology/details of the experiment and the expected results). This is the reason why they didn't interfere in E8.

On to my next point. The DITE is not a hivemind. There are factions within the DITE that have differing views on how they should tackle the Haruhi phenomenon. Just for example, Asakura's faction is one of the radicals, who think like you and want to meddle and actively experiment on Haruhi. The current ruling faction of the DITE, of which Yuki is part of, prefers to observe (we all know what happens to those who go against the rules, yes?). And there are good reasons for this:
  • Haruhi is chaotic. There is no guarantee that Haruhi will react according to what their theories predict.
  • Haruhi is more powerful than them. She eats causality and conservation laws for breakfast, and creates and destroys entire universes on a whim.
  • They do not perceive the universe in the same way we humans do. Their concept of data conservation is similar to our conservation laws, but that is where the similarities end. This is why they modeled interfaces with physical data copied straight from humans -- in order to observe the world the way we humans do, and to successfully communicate with us.

Spoiler for Movie plot details:

TLDR: Endless Eight matters. If you had watched the 2009 reboot prior to watching this movie and you still didn't get it, you need to think harder and work on your memory and attention span. Alternatively, you could post on forums and ask for help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
By the way, the Kyonic Sarcasm and moping I felt dominated the tone of this series far to much during it's near 2 and a 3/4 hours. There are entire stretches of this film that, now that I think of it, were just long rambling soliloquy's about how messed up everything is. I kind of like to see less present tense talking and coping and a little more doing and progression if the anime series is going to continue on from here lest the series concepts really start to become stale.
And this is because the series is seen in first person view (from Kyon's perspective). I see nothing wrong with this, and certainly, through 9 volumes, this has not become "stale" in any way. The monologues and narration effectively tell us the difference between what Kyon himself has perceived (oh, the ever unreliable narrator) and what really happens. This works beautifully for the movie, as Kyon's comments and narration (coupled with his tone, facial expression and gestures) amplify each and every scene. If you don't like this style of storytelling, then I suggest you post your comments on why this is so, or take your leave. What you're saying makes you look like those people who can't take WORDS WORDS WORDS (and this isn't even exposition, just thoughts and commentary) and would rather have more FIGHTAN and whatnot.
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Old 2010-04-15, 06:27   Link #149
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I still haven't seen the movie (watched up to the opening credits in the camrip) but I'm rating it a 10 in advance because I know it will be the best thing ever.
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Old 2010-04-15, 13:08   Link #150
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I rated it a 10 because over the last year I though up probably everything they could do wrong with the novel, and other sort of weirdness that came up during July of 2009. None went wrong. They hit every plot point perfectly. They even made some of the plot points better than the novel. They even kept the questions in place for future material like the novel did.

Then they made it absolutely gorgeous.
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Old 2010-04-15, 14:27   Link #151
Kaioshin Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
First of all, do you really know what a controlled experiment is? Think about it for a moment.

Alright, I assume you're done thinking. Scientifically speaking, a controlled experiment alone is useless. You need a set of experiments. Yes, that extra "s" makes a world of difference. Experiments are used to test out hypotheses, and thus must be reasonably repeatable, and should best be performed on a closed system. Now, if you look at the series, which set of episodes best fit this description? That's right, Endless Eight. That was the closest thing the DITE had to an experiment, and best of all, the subject had unknowingly imposed it upon herself (another key element of behavioral experiments -- subjects should not know the full methodology/details of the experiment and the expected results). This is the reason why they didn't interfere in E8.
This much is true for sure, although I'd call it more of an uncontrolled observation since not once in any of those loops did the Data Entity do anything to try and influence or change the outcome in a controlled manner to see if anything happened differently that it could analyze. Nagato also points to neglible differences in each weekly outcome which leads me to wonder why the Data Entity still saw fit to just watch unless it's really just a lech and was hoping to see Mikuru in that bikini just one more time. Missed opportunity if you ask me

Thus it doesn't look like the Data Entity learned anything, which doesn't bode well for the whole concept of the Data Entity looking for answers to Haruhi and makes that whole aspect of the story look like it'll be nothing more than a complete waste of time and like it will ultimately go nowhere....kind of like the way the franchise itself seems to be looking lately. Also to bad that I still think the span of episodes sucks irredeemably and could have just been dealt with via the explanation by Nagato that they had been in a recurring time loop for some time and then have been done with it.....kind of like how it was done in the novels. Figures though, the one time Kyoani decides not to follow the novels to the letter it ends in disaster. That said there is and always will still be the novel version for reference.

Quote:
On to my next point. The DITE is not a hivemind. There are factions within the DITE that have differing views on how they should tackle the Haruhi phenomenon. Just for example, Asakura's faction is one of the radicals, who think like you and want to meddle and actively experiment on Haruhi. The current ruling faction of the DITE, of which Yuki is part of, prefers to observe (we all know what happens to those who go against the rules, yes?). And there are good reasons for this:
  • Haruhi is chaotic. There is no guarantee that Haruhi will react according to what their theories predict.
  • Haruhi is more powerful than them. She eats causality and conservation laws for breakfast, and creates and destroys entire universes on a whim.
  • They do not perceive the universe in the same way we humans do. Their concept of data conservation is similar to our conservation laws, but that is where the similarities end. This is why they modeled interfaces with physical data copied straight from humans -- in order to observe the world the way we humans do, and to successfully communicate with us.
Haruhi had nothing to do with Asakura's death and not following the rules, Nagato desposed of her herself.....I guess out of fear. Then later on Nagato seemingly depowered and shot Haruhi into an alternate reality on her own without Haruhi being able to resist and where she may or may not even still have her powers. Mikuru seems to indicate too that Nagato stole Haruhi's powers and used them to do this. A very strange scenario, one that also makes me question how exactly Haruhi is more powerful than the Datamind or it's underlings since the actual dangerous doing by Nagato so far has far outdone the fear mongering about Haruhi. Maybe though it should start listening to the radicals if it wants to get anywhere with it's study and cause, lest they accidentally wipe it out in an act of rebellion in order to see things to an end.

Quote:

Spoiler for Movie plot details:
Sounds like guess work and theory to me. No moreso than anything else going on in this discussion though, yeesh. Still though it contradicts the idea you just presented that Haruhi is more powerful than the Data Entity by agreeing that Nagato hijacked Haruhi's powers.

Quote:
TLDR: Endless Eight matters. If you had watched the 2009 reboot prior to watching this movie and you still didn't get it, you need to think harder and work on your memory and attention span. Alternatively, you could post on forums and ask for help.
Endless Eight matters in concept for the study of Haruhi, just no reason to watch the same episode 8 times in a row. Though if somebody can show me with evidence and quotes from the book or movie how Endless Eight is beyond a shadow of a doubt the reason why Nagato went on a bender then I would be very grateful since I still just see it as an excuse for Kyoani that came out of the unpopular Endless Eight anime arc. One that still doesn't explain why they had to show the same basic content 8 times in a row.


Quote:
And this is because the series is seen in first person view (from Kyon's perspective). I see nothing wrong with this, and certainly, through 9 volumes, this has not become "stale" in any way. The monologues and narration effectively tell us the difference between what Kyon himself has perceived (oh, the ever unreliable narrator) and what really happens. This works beautifully for the movie, as Kyon's comments and narration (coupled with his tone, facial expression and gestures) amplify each and every scene. If you don't like this style of storytelling, then I suggest you post your comments on why this is so, or take your leave. What you're saying makes you look like those people who can't take WORDS WORDS WORDS (and this isn't even exposition, just thoughts and commentary) and would rather have more FIGHTAN and whatnot.
Still doesn't mean they couldn't have cut down on it by about 30 minutes. And if you ask me the whole franchise is starting to become stale. It's time after 5 years and approximately 32 episodes worth of animated material to start moving on towards some sort of end. Unless they plan to keep this series prolonged and alive forever as a cash cow like the average Shonen Jump work. Doesn't matter if it's pointless fighting or lots of talking, filler still feels like filler and that's what Kyon's sarcastic moping is starting to feel like since he never EVER does anything about it no matter how much he complains. Even in this movie the answers just happened to fall into place conveniently or somebody forced the situation for him, otherwise I doubt that they would have ever solved the problem.

Also I don't mind Words Words Words franchises at all. I've watched 3 times as much overall LOGH content as I have Haruhi content and some of the episodes are almost entirely dialogue driven and reflective from start to end. However those episodes serve to develop (actually develop) more than one character and aren't just 75% one character complaining about their situation the way we've heard Kyon do many times before. If I wanted to hear 30+ straight minutes of that I'd listen to my mother when she talks more often. Plus with shows like LOGH that do the WWW thing each episode brings something new to the table to ponder and is ultimately part of a means to an end within a given arc and even overall since things that change tend to change permanently. Haruhi has a habit of ending with a reset to the status quo at the end of each arc without much being learned by the characters or much changing about the characters and their personalities.

Then again maybe I'm just too much like Asakura. Not willing to accept all of the cards that the franchise deals me just because the majority has decided it's perfect just the way it is and should keep to the status quo.
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Old 2010-04-16, 00:40   Link #152
iHateApril3rd2009
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what was the last part after the ending credits about?
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Old 2010-04-16, 01:10   Link #153
Ice Block
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Thus it doesn't look like the Data Entity learned anything, which doesn't bode well for the whole concept of the Data Entity looking for answers to Haruhi and makes that whole aspect of the story look like it'll be nothing more than a complete waste of time and like it will ultimately go nowhere....
Key word. Just because they didn't evolve or w/e doesn't mean that they're not steadily gathering information Learning is a progressive process. You don't suddenly jump from 0% understanding to 100%. Yuki's actions confirm that she, at least, has learned how to access and proxy Haruhi's abilities. However, as I said, the DITE isn't a hivemind. Do you know what that means? I guess not, given your answer to my other paragraph. From wiki:
A group mind or group ego in science fiction is a single consciousness occupying many bodies. Its use in literature goes back at least as far as Olaf Stapledon's Last and First Men, a 1930 science fiction novel. A group mind might be formed by telepathy, by adding brain-to-brain communication to ordinary individuals, or by some unspecified means. This term may be used interchangeably with "hive mind". A hive mind is a group mind with almost complete loss (or lack) of individual identity; most fictional group minds are hives.
Yuki is not representative of the whole DITE. She is an interface, with her own individual (though temporary) identity, created by and answering to the current ruling faction of the DITE (which happens to be passive). What Yuki observes isn't automatically uploaded to the DITE. She stores them, sorts them, and only uploads important/significant data. The point is, either she 1) held back some information from the DITE due to influence from her accumulated errors, or 2) the DITE didn't consider the ability to proxy her powers to be useful (they need to be able to at least develop it themselves).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Haruhi had nothing to do with Asakura's death and not following the rules, Nagato desposed of her herself.....I guess out of fear. Then later on Nagato seemingly depowered and shot Haruhi into an alternate reality on her own without Haruhi being able to resist and where she may or may not even still have her powers. Mikuru seems to indicate too that Nagato stole Haruhi's powers and used them to do this. A very strange scenario, one that also makes me question how exactly Haruhi is more powerful than the Datamind or it's underlings since the actual dangerous doing by Nagato so far has far outdone the fear mongering about Haruhi. Maybe though it should start listening to the radicals if it wants to get anywhere with it's study and cause, lest they accidentally wipe it out in an act of rebellion in order to see things to an end.
That is for them to decide. They aren't arguing over it for no reason at all. Kyon even jokes that perhaps Ryoko is up there somewhere persuading the DITE to take a move [and kill him].

Yuki deleted Ryoko because she was not following orders. Remember, she was supposed to be Yuki's backup. They are under strict orders to observe, and only observe (Ryoko disobeyed orders, hence she was punished and dismissed). This is why another interface was ordered to be Yuki's superior later on, as part of her punishment for going rogue in Disappearance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Sounds like guess work and theory to me. No moreso than anything else going on in this discussion though, yeesh. Still though it contradicts the idea you just presented that Haruhi is more powerful than the Data Entity by agreeing that Nagato hijacked Haruhi's powers.
Hypotheses. The main point is a fact though, as it is explicitly stated by Yuki herself in the movie/novel. Even Yuki herself wasn't able to stop it, and she knew all along that it will happen ever since three years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Though if somebody can show me with evidence and quotes from the book or movie how Endless Eight is beyond a shadow of a doubt the reason why Nagato went on a bender then I would be very grateful since I still just see it as an excuse for Kyoani that came out of the unpopular Endless Eight anime arc.
I don't really approve of the eight episodes, but here are the quotes. Not the exact line, but in the movie, Kyon said:
Given enough time, even an emotionless interface like you would start to develop emotions.
And boy, for human [interface] standards, did she have a lot of TIME. And here, a line from the novels (I didn't notice this in the movie):
I suddenly thought of the behavior and mannerisms of Nagato after summer, which were slightly different from before
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Still doesn't mean they couldn't have cut down on it by about 30 minutes. And if you ask me the whole franchise is starting to become stale. It's time after 5 years and approximately 32 episodes worth of animated material to start moving on towards some sort of end. Unless they plan to keep this series prolonged and alive forever as a cash cow like the average Shonen Jump work. Doesn't matter if it's pointless fighting or lots of talking, filler still feels like filler and that's what Kyon's sarcastic moping is starting to feel like since he never EVER does anything about it no matter how much he complains. Even in this movie the answers just happened to fall into place conveniently or somebody forced the situation for him, otherwise I doubt that they would have ever solved the problem.
Uh, did you miss the part where the novels (and the entire franchise for that matter) have been on hiatus for the past 3 years? And you complain about 32 episodes? LoGH has 110 episodes. What do you have against 32?

This is what people who don't pay attention think. Look at the book Kyon took the bookmark from in the movie. He immediately noticed it since it's the same one that Yuki gave to Kyon in Ep02 (2009), which contained the bookmark that told him to meet up at the park. The escape program was supposed to be as discrete as possible in order for Yuki to be able to set it up in the first place. Remember, anything remotely indiscreet that she left behind would end up being reverted. This also applies to the world as a whole. Taniguchi's cold, Koizumi and Haruhi in Kyouyen. Everything was set up by Yuki to make triggering the program possible yet still incredibly hard.

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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Haruhi has a habit of ending with a reset to the status quo at the end of each arc without much being learned by the characters or much changing about the characters and their personalities.
Not true. Change in Haruhi is subtle, yet it happens all the time (progressively).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Then again maybe I'm just too much like Asakura. Not willing to accept all of the cards that the franchise deals me just because the majority has decided it's perfect just the way it is and should keep to the status quo.
Most likely. Don't go batshit insane on us now.
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Old 2010-04-16, 08:16   Link #154
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Uh, did you miss the part where the novels (and the entire franchise for that matter) have been on hiatus for the past 3 years? And you complain about 32 episodes? LoGH has 110 episodes. What do you have against 32?
Not to mention Code Geass' 52, which Kaioshin seemed to enjoy the whole time. I can understand him getting weary of Haruhi when that 32 episodes worth of animation is spread across four years, but 32 episodes in itself isn't very much at all. I personally enjoy long series and sometimes get tired of this "Let's make every show ever a brief one-cour affair" shit that seems to be the dominant trend in anime these days.
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Old 2010-04-16, 14:20   Link #155
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It's not really length in itself. It is perhaps that one finds that when something isn't progressing over a certain amount of episodes, that it can become unbearable. So a 52 episode series which keeps moving may just be more watchable than a series that a series that doesn't seem to be going anywhere in 32. Perhaps one can feel that the "content per episode" is just too low for it to go along so much. This is of course subjective, but it's understandable.
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Old 2010-04-16, 14:35   Link #156
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The hard part about progression in Haruhi is that the first season jumped all over the place in 2006. You miss the progression at first because you aren't sure what is happening. In 2009 you can see the progression with everying in order and a few blanks filled in. By the time the movie ends...there has been progression. It might not be earth shattering (though again it might be), but it is there.

While Haruhi is the title character....Kyon is the main character. And while it might seem like he's not progressed, he has. He went from someone who was sort of depressed that the things he believe in as a child weren't real and he had to give them up to grow up, to being interested in this weird girl that believed in the things he use to like, to being pulled around by said girl and subject to her will, to finding out those things he use to believe in are, in some ways real, to denial, cynical, and snarky about the whole thing. To why me, to anger over the situation, to general acceptance of his fate, to "Do you want to be normal?" to "Hell no, I like things to be weird and crazy"...which is where he stands now.

Also his view of Haruhi has changed...but then his view on all the club members has changed. It is telling how he treats Haruhi's punishment at the end compared to at the beginning of the film.

Also his view of Yuki. That's a harder one to pin down. You can see more or less what he's thinking...but yet...there are a lot of images that suggest regret or perhaps dual meaning. That relationship...such as it is...also seems to progress.

Mikuru seems to be a constant however. At least for now.
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Old 2010-04-16, 14:43   Link #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
The hard part about progression in Haruhi is that the first season jumped all over the place in 2006. You miss the progression at first because you aren't sure what is happening. In 2009 you can see the progression with everying in order and a few blanks filled in. By the time the movie ends...there has been progression. It might not be earth shattering (though again it might be), but it is there.

While Haruhi is the title character....Kyon is the main character. And while it might seem like he's not progressed, he has. He went from someone who was sort of depressed that the things he believe in as a child weren't real and he had to give them up to grow up, to being interested in this weird girl that believed in the things he use to like, to being pulled around by said girl and subject to her will, to finding out those things he use to believe in are, in some ways real, to denial, cynical, and snarky about the whole thing. To why me, to anger over the situation, to general acceptance of his fate, to "Do you want to be normal?" to "Hell no, I like things to be weird and crazy"...which is where he stands now.

Also his view of Haruhi has changed...but then his view on all the club members has changed. It is telling how he treats Haruhi's punishment at the end compared to at the beginning of the film.

Also his view of Yuki. That's a harder one to pin down. You can see more or less what he's thinking...but yet...there are a lot of images that suggest regret or perhaps dual meaning. That relationship...such as it is...also seems to progress.

Mikuru seems to be a constant however. At least for now.
There certainly is development, and we can appreciate that. But we also need to consider over the span of these episodes and movie over 4 years is: Is that it? Was that really worth it?

For some it is. But for those that don't nearly appreciate the characters as much and would like answers on the actual plot and setting it might not be; for a non fan the movie is gonna fall out of their area of expectations. Each to their own. I found Kaioshin Sama's review to be pretty amusing, even if I don't agree with some of it. It was more thoughtful and honest and actually tried to explain itself. Heck, my reviews contain more sarcasm, though I guess it's the playful kind.

Everyone seems to be enjoying the movie to some degree or another, and I'll watch it in a theater in a month. I will enjoy it regardless. So all is well.
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Old 2010-04-17, 02:36   Link #158
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Other stories this reminds me of...

The main themes here remind me of a few other stories, which I'll mention/recommend as "related reading" . Full spoilers ahead:

Asimov's short story "All the Problems of the World", in the collection Nine Tomorrows
Spoiler for All the Problems spoiler:


Asimov's Foundation series
Spoiler for last chronological Foundation book:


Old (pseudo?)-anime Mighty Orbots
Spoiler for episode "The Wish World":
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Old 2010-04-17, 04:24   Link #159
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
for a non fan the movie is gonna fall out of their area of expectations.
I agree, though I'd add that I think Kadokawa and Kyoto Animation are comfortable with the rather extensive cult fanbase the Haruhi franchise has developed over the years. I believe this was KyoAni's first feature length movie? If so, it says quite a lot to me that they'd do it for the Haruhi franchise, let alone a later book in the series that requires a lot of background to properly enjoy.

Also, Endless 8's relevance to Yuki:

Kyon did refer to the thousands of repeats over summer during this movie, and again to the long amount of time Ice Block mentioned. In E8 itself, Kyon notices Nagato looking bored/out of sorts, which is the first mention in the series I believe of Nagato expressing any real sort of 'mood'. During E8 it's made known that Nagato is the only character who's aware of the length of time that has passed, and is conscious of every iteration.

The rest, I think, is somewhat implied. Kyon believes that E8, other events in the story, and "other work" Nagato is probably doing behind the scenes (Koizumi also mentions a lot of stuff happeing behind the scenes) not only created stress for Nagato, but also led to her developing emotions as a way of responding to and dealing with her circumstances and her new friends, which she didn't fully understand how to deal with.

In the end of the movie Kyon asks why Nagato wasn't made to be more sociable and upbeat since Asakura was, as if maybe Asakura was more emotionally developed. It seems to me that Asakura was about the same as Nagato in that regard, just with a different focus. She was happy and cheerful -not to mention devoted- all the time, rather than 'gloomy' like Nagato, to the point where she made stabbing Kyon repeatedly kind of cute and... tender?

This movie/book was definitely a turning point for both Kyon and Nagato. It's the third long narrative in the series, so as for the pace of the character development we're not doing to badly. I agree it's just the non-linear timeline and long production delays of the series that have slowed the pace.

Back to my original point, the Haruhi fanbase seems willing to work with these delays and eccentricities (E8) and have stayed very loyal. Noizi Ito's panel was well received at Sakura con (she's absolutely adorable by the way) and there was a lot of support for Haruhi there.

Anyway, one of my favourite aspects of this series is that it makes the fans ask a lot of questions. It's a smart show, and Tanigawa leaves a lot to interpretation and deduction.

Ardee, I really need to read more Asimov. Another comparison that stood out for me was with Star Trek TNG. Nagato's evolution as a character and desire to be human reminds me a lot of Data's progression as a character, especially in how his friends come to appreciate him as a person.

Last edited by Airman8; 2010-04-17 at 04:27. Reason: more blabbing
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Old 2010-04-18, 03:09   Link #160
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THIS MOVIE WAS ABSOLUTELY PERFECT!!

I've read the fourth novel over a dozen of times... I can tell. This movie had absolutely no flaws! And it managed to impress and amuse me to no end, despite already knowing how it would...

... I... have no words for this... Only... I'm so happy for having seen it... so happy...
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