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Old 2011-04-16, 13:51   Link #1121
hoarfrost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YoakeNoHikari View Post
Please actually state 'what does not make sense.'

A 'cliche' trigger, (is it actually cliche? What other protagonist becomes awesome when he is aroused through a hereditary condition Oo) is once again, is not something that does not make sense. You may think it's stupid, but it's not something that is incongruous or impossible.



Akamatsu-sensei is the one making all the money, having sold around 2 million copies of his light novel, so why don't you write a book with a trigger that makes sense and get 2 million people to buy it.

Silly is purely subjective.



...
Off the top of my head, Amenaidaiyo(Don't care to spell it correctly) has one such character device where a protagonist achieves uber skills by stimulation of the libido. Aside from being used already, it essentially contributes nothing and is a device for fanservice, which isn't bad, but is also not very savvy or clever at all.

And selling well is meaningless as far as quality is concerned, especially in as insular a market as this where people often consume based on the presence of their favourite plot and character archetypes.

Quote:
Explained in light novel.

Spoiler for Excerpt, already covered in anime.:


Firing a gun during the introductions of the new semester, she's got to be the first one.
That doesn't make much sense in any context. Soldiers may be desensitised to gunfire, but any one of them will tell you that you don't fire a gun at something you wouldn't want to destroy, especially not when surrounded by plenty of fleshy targets. It's irresponsible enough that they give guns to hormonal teenagers who haven't even fully formed their brains, now they give them free reign to shoot as they please?

Quote:
School Life is a popular genre for shounen. Authors have to think of the demographic when they write as well, or else it might not sell*. Rather than criticizing the setting, you should try to pick more plot holes since you're claiming that this is an iceberg of nonsense.
And iceberg of nonsense, I like that. At any rate, thinking of the target audience is well and good, but consider the problem you face when you go to such contrivances in order to make a story fit a setting rather than vice versa. This means that certain liberties must be taken with logic, resulting in things like IS's ridiculous setting which drew a lot of criticism.

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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Does not happen permanently. And even then, not like that. What's wrong with harem genre?
Nothing, like above, but realise what you do to the quality of the writing when you design the story to fit the archetypes. It inevitably results in dumbing down, plot holes, and out of character behaviour. But that's a topic for another day.

TJR is also correct, though a bit harsher than I would put it myself. It seems to me that Anime/Light Novel writers have discarded their knowledge of literary techniques and conventions in favour of throwing together otaku culture tropes and archetypes. You might even say that they do this because the otaku market is insular and demanding, but it happens nonetheless. Cultural elitism aside, writers would be panned for such shoddy work in other markets.

As for my general point here, you can find a show entertaining even with low quality writing, all of us do at some points. I'm enjoying quite a few of those this season, but that doesn't mean you have to ignore the obvious quality defects.
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Old 2011-04-16, 13:54   Link #1122
Icy.Tear
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
That's just not good enough. No where near good enough. By your logic the whole world would be crime free but it isn't. People aren't as rational as you'd think, especially teenagers.
...I'm a teenager, are you calling me irrational?

The point of the test is to root out all those that might feel the urge to kill.

Because no matter how irrational we are, the majority of us don't kill you for slighting us, even if it's within our means.

Because killing somebody is as easy as sneaking up to them and cutting their throat while they're asleep, you don't need a gun to do that.

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Originally Posted by hoarfrost View Post
Off the top of my head, Amenaidaiyo(Don't care to spell it correctly) has one such character device where a protagonist achieves uber skills by stimulation of the libido. Aside from being used already, it essentially contributes nothing and is a device for fanservice, which isn't bad, but is also not very savvy or clever at all.
He could have another trigger, but then it wouldn't be the same story...If much of the story is based around said trigger, even if you think the trigger is moe or bad or cliche or silly or whatnot, then the trigger isn't there just for fun.

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Originally Posted by hoarfrost View Post
And selling well is meaningless as far as quality is concerned, especially in as insular a market as this where people often consume based on the presence of their favourite plot and character archetypes.
Are you kidding me? Only a minority of otaku will pick up complete trash just because they have moe elements.

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Originally Posted by hoarfrost View Post
That doesn't make much sense in any context. Soldiers may be desensitised to gunfire, but any one of them will tell you that you don't fire a gun at something you wouldn't want to destroy, especially not when surrounded by plenty of fleshy targets. It's irresponsible enough that they give guns to hormonal teenagers who haven't even fully formed their brains, now they give them free reign to shoot as they please?
They are shocked. Even as Butei, who are used to guns being fired all around, they are shocked. However, instead of getting a court martial, she goes unpunished. Simply put, the Butei students are trusted to not harm each other. While this may sound stupid since they're "irrational teenagers", with enough training, this might be possible. Butei are outside of real world logic, at any rate.

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Originally Posted by hoarfrost View Post
And iceberg of nonsense, I like that. At any rate, thinking of the target audience is well and good, but consider the problem you face when you go to such contrivances in order to make a story fit a setting rather than vice versa. This means that certain liberties must be taken with logic, resulting in things like IS's ridiculous setting which drew a lot of criticism.
I took iceberg of nonsense from your post, no wonder you like it. At any rate, I don't feel that the story is made to match the setting in HnA.

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Originally Posted by hoarfrost View Post
Nothing, like above, but realise what you do to the quality of the writing when you design the story to fit the archetypes. It inevitably results in dumbing down, plot holes, and out of character behaviour. But that's a topic for another day.
Now, this is an archetype. I don't think this holds true for all harems.

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Originally Posted by hoarfrost View Post
TJR is also correct, though a bit harsher than I would put it myself. It seems to me that Anime/Light Novel writers have discarded their knowledge of literary techniques and conventions in favour of throwing together otaku culture tropes and archetypes. You might even say that they do this because the otaku market is insular and demanding, but it happens nonetheless. Cultural elitism aside, writers would be panned for such shoddy work in other markets.
First of all, if this "shoddy work" is popular, then maybe the authors are doing it that way on purpose. If you don't like it, that's perfectly fine. I'm not telling you all "WORSHIP ARIA SHE IS AWESOME AND HIDAN NO ARIA IS THE BEST IN THE WORLD SO BOW DOWN NAO", I'm just debating about what is subjective and objectively good and bad about this series.

Last edited by Icy.Tear; 2011-04-16 at 14:05.
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Old 2011-04-16, 13:54   Link #1123
Xacual
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Originally Posted by hoarfrost View Post
TJR is also correct, though a bit harsher than I would put it myself. It seems to me that Anime/Light Novel writers have discarded their knowledge of literary techniques and conventions in favour of throwing together otaku culture tropes and archetypes. You might even say that they do this because the otaku market is insular and demanding, but it happens nonetheless. Cultural elitism aside, writers would be panned for such shoddy work in other markets.
This series was written for teens. It's not supposed to be some amazing literary work. Stories need to appeal to their audience and Hidan no Aria does. If you want a heavier, more complex light novel I'm sure someone can direct you to one.
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Old 2011-04-16, 13:56   Link #1124
Chiibi
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Originally Posted by YoakeNoHikari View Post

I like Kinji far better than any of the other heroes, too.
Agree with this. Kinji's nothing short of awesome.

People putting this show down is just making me like it more. I'm making a new AriaxKinji avatar/sig set purely out of spite.
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Old 2011-04-16, 13:58   Link #1125
tsunade666
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Originally Posted by hoarfrost View Post
It seems to me that Anime/Light Novel writers have discarded their knowledge of literary techniques and conventions in favour of throwing together otaku culture tropes and archetypes. You might even say that they do this because the otaku market is insular and demanding, but it happens nonetheless. Cultural elitism aside, writers would be panned for such shoddy work in other markets.
I for one read/watch anything that's interesting and as long as its interesting or entertaining I would watch it or read it. But are the current fad that bad? if they are bad they wouldn't be popular to begin with.

Sounds like the current series are for the otaku people to watch and not in general.
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Old 2011-04-16, 13:58   Link #1126
Zakoo
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I seriously have the urge to kill when I read 'Light novel authors doesn't know how to write'.

I don't know if you are seriously thinking what you are saying, but you should be ashamed or yourself or go read once again regular novels. Maybe the two at the same time who knows.

But above all, you can't expect a novel for teenager to have the same writing as a novel of Emile Zola or who knows what famous antique writers you have in your bag. That doesn't mean that they don't know how to write, quite the opposite, they adapt their writing for the population targeted.
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Old 2011-04-16, 14:00   Link #1127
tsunade666
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But above all, you can't expect a novel for teenager to have the same writing as a novel of Emile Zola or who knows what famous antique writers you have in your bag. That doesn't mean that they don't how to write, quite the opposite, they adapt their writing for who the novel is targeted.
I don't even know this person is. I don't read to much heavy, thick book stuff. I get sleepy just looking at the wall of text or number of page.
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Old 2011-04-16, 14:01   Link #1128
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoarfrost View Post

TJR is also correct, though a bit harsher than I would put it myself. It seems to me that Anime/Light Novel writers have discarded their knowledge of literary techniques and conventions in favour of throwing together otaku culture tropes and archetypes. You might even say that they do this because the otaku market is insular and demanding, but it happens nonetheless. Cultural elitism aside, writers would be panned for such shoddy work in other markets.
I can list off some heavier LNs off the top of my head. It's the author's freedom what he wants to write. it happens obviously but the way you are putting it makes it seem that every LN out there is crap.

And even among those that are aimed at otaku/teenage audiences there are good ones. of course your taste may not agree with mine. How many LNs have you read anyway? Actually read, not an anime adaptation or a synopsis but the actual text?

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I don't even know this person is. I don't read to much heavy, thick book stuff. I get sleepy just looking at the wall of text or number of page.
I do but the point is I don't classify them under relaxation entertainment which I do for LNs. And some of those heavier novels I read? Yes, I find some LNs actually surpassing them in enjoyment value.

And the ones I enjoy? Typically the myths, epics and legends of other cultures....which incidentially, LNs are an evolution from and do make reference to at times.
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Last edited by Cosmic Eagle; 2011-04-16 at 14:12.
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Old 2011-04-16, 14:02   Link #1129
Silverwyrm
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The whole pulling guns out at the end was something done for comedic effect mind you, it doesn't hold much to logic.

It's nothing like the way it was done in IS where they went out of the way to let us know the characters being "hot headed" was literally a threat to the other well being -_- such as rin calling houki out on the kendo stick, or ichika needing to be saved by someone from their random attacks. That is bad "comedic" violence, when aria pulled out her guns/katna's/etc I never felt like she was gonna literally try kill/injure someone.
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Old 2011-04-16, 14:03   Link #1130
hoarfrost
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Originally Posted by Xacual View Post
This series was written for teens. It's not supposed to be some amazing literary work. Stories need to appeal to their audience and Hidan no Aria does. If you want a heavier, more complex light novel I'm sure someone can direct you to one.
I'm not asking for it to be amazing, but for it to avoid obvious pitfalls. In other words, to stick to the time honoured literary framework through which a diverse array of works for all kinds of audiences has come from. I don't expect Hemmingway, Dickens or Goethe, but I'd be satisfied with good setting and believable characters. Unfortunately, it is these two areas in which this community has become the most complacent at accepting a lack of effort.

Like I said, I don't talk down on anyone for their style as long as they acknowledge the bare basics of literary technique, and I certainly don't talk down on anyone for their taste. When their is stuff that is more suited to my tastes, I follow it. That doesn't make everything else off limits, though.

Btw, I think a few skilled YA writers would take offense to the assumption that their work is by default poor literature.
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Old 2011-04-16, 14:05   Link #1131
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
And even among those that are aimed at otaku/teenage audiences there are good ones. of course your taste may not agree with mine. How many LNs have you read anyway? Actually read, not an anime adaptation or a synopsis but the actual text?
Probably the main reason of this current conversation. Kuroneko vs Kirino
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Old 2011-04-16, 14:07   Link #1132
Icy.Tear
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Hah, my edit will go unnoticed with all this chatter.

At any rate, characters in a supernatural world don't have to be believable as they follow completely different thought patterns than ours.
Setting is a matter of subjectivity as well. In fact, I think it's impossible to rate something objectively.

Therefore, all I can argue about is actual things with the plot that are incongruous.

The reason Aria doesn't feel like she's going to kill somebody is because she doesn't mean to. Which is the point.
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Old 2011-04-16, 14:11   Link #1133
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by YoakeNoHikari View Post
Cliche doesn't make something bad. I respect your opinion on thinking this is mediocre, but cliche is something that some people like, and some people hate.
I think you mean tropes, cliché is never used in a positive sense, as it implies something that's been done a dozen times before. Love at first sight is a trope, Love at first sight to this is clichéd. However some people don't recognise certain things as clichéd

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Let's see...a few times for Kugyuu, except I don't see the characters as the same because just because they're lolis and tsundere doesn't mean that they act the same.
They're never identical, but they're similiar enough to make me groan.

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I like Kinji far better than any of the other heroes, too.
At least he's not in the "wimpy harem lead" mode, I'll give him that. He's still a bit non-descript though.

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As for combat school in an LN adaptation. I'm going to guess, twice.
I'm not sure how often it's occured, but it's becoming a trend.
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Old 2011-04-16, 14:13   Link #1134
Kagayaki
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Originally Posted by Silverwyrm View Post
The whole pulling guns out at the end was something done for comedic effect mind you, it doesn't hold much to logic.

It's nothing like the way it was done in IS where they went out of the way to let us know the characters being "hot headed" was literally a threat to the other well being -_- such as rin calling houki out on the kendo stick, or ichika needing to be saved by someone from their random attacks. That is bad "comedic" violence, when aria pulled out her guns/katna's/etc I never felt like she was gonna literally try kill/injure someone.
I think the reason that many of us are not so willing to suspend disbelief when it comes to this series is that people tend to suspend disbelief more when they're watching something that feels new or original to them.

The whole "tsundere is embarrased -> tsundere uses gag violence to attack people" comedy act is one of the most overused concepts in anime, so we're being a little harsh here.

Similarly, the "let's have a school of superpowered highschoolers" setup is also pretty standard, hence the (perhaps overly) critical examination.

Obviously, if someone hasn't seen 10 shows that use the exact same unrealistic element, they'll love it (otherwise it wouldn't be so popular in the first place). So these element are good elements in that sense, it's just that a lot of us have watched too much anime and gotten tired of these elements, so we call them cliches.
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Old 2011-04-16, 14:16   Link #1135
Icy.Tear
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Originally Posted by donquigleone View Post
I think you mean tropes, cliché is never used in a positive sense, as it implies something that's been done a dozen times before. Love at first sight is a trope, Love at first sight to this is clichéd. However some people don't recognise certain things as clichéd
Yes, this was my mistake.

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They're never identical, but they're similiar enough to make me groan.
The only similarities I see is their appearance. Even as tsunderes, they display different traits towards the Hero.

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Originally Posted by donquigleone View Post
At least he's not in the "wimpy harem lead" mode, I'll give him that. He's still a bit non-descript though.
Kinji is plenty badass in HSS. In fact, he's extremely badass.

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Originally Posted by donquigleone View Post
I'm not sure how often it's occured, but it's becoming a trend.
To my knowledge, twice.
So not really, especially since this series was started 3 years ago.

[mod edit: spoilers/hints removed]

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2011-04-16 at 19:07. Reason: NO spoilers, even behind spoiler tags
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Old 2011-04-16, 14:16   Link #1136
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by YoakeNoHikari View Post
You're right.

If I gave every teenager in the world a gun, they'd have a big shoot-out because of their hormones.

Irresponsibility with guns doesn't mean they kill people. Nobody except general populace cares that they're irresponsible with guns as long as they don't kill people.

And people can be trained to be responsible with guns. Why don't child soldiers take their guns and turn on their own? Social taboo, upbringing, socialization, many things act as hindrances to Butei blasting their guns at normal people. Even those abnormal people don't want to be hated.

Even if they are trigger happy.
That'd be a lot more convincing if we hadn't see Aria open fire and threaten to kill people for teasing her.

Yes, people, even young ones, can be trained, and the hardcases weeded out. That's obviously not what happened at Butei High.
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Old 2011-04-16, 14:23   Link #1137
Zakoo
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Kill ? Buteis don't kill.

It was a comedic moment that explained quite easily how Aria can be broken when it comes to love and male/female relationships no more no less.
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Old 2011-04-16, 14:25   Link #1138
Icy.Tear
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I threaten to kill people everyday.

I can't back it up, so I don't.

If I had a gun and knew I could fire it without consequences and without killing anybody, I might consider doing so.

However, I wouldn't kill them. Especially since most of the times I say such things, they're meant as jokes.

The point here is, the government doesn't care what the students do as long as they don't kill people. They could shoot holes into the wall for hours as long as they payed damages.
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Old 2011-04-16, 14:27   Link #1139
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by YoakeNoHikari View Post
To my knowledge, twice.
So not really, especially since this series was started 3 years ago.
Off the top of my head there's Baka to Test, Infinite Stratos, and to an extent To aru Majutsu no Index. All of these are also Light novel adaptations as well.

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2011-04-16 at 19:07. Reason: removed part of quote in line with edit above
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Old 2011-04-16, 14:32   Link #1140
Icy.Tear
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And Chrome Shelled Regios XD

Also, Baka to Test is too humorous to be really counted as a battle school...

Also, it's hardly been overused so much that it's a cliche.

Time gap is a little too big for it to be a trend, either.
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