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Old 2011-04-16, 14:55   Link #1141
FatPianoBoy
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I don't mind the questionable logic of carrying loaded weapons on campus, honestly. My main problems are with the directing, characters and the writing.

Starting with a cold opening, then covering the events leading to it, showing the cold opening in context, and then finally resolving the situation is a tedious way to present an episode. There was really no reason to begin with the bike chase other than assuming everyone would change the channel if they started with the breakfast scene. Rather than messing with the order of the scenes, they should have just focused on making the actual beginning of the story interesting.

The only character with any brains at all is, surprisingly, the male lead. He has an interesting ability with a silly weakness. The effect of purposely avoiding close relationships with other people, especially girls, has twisted his personality and made him interesting to watch. Explaining chronic hero syndrome as a genetic disorder that illicits an unwelcome, involuntary response to dangerous situations is a neat subversion of the typical hyper-righteous shtick that shows like Index have run into the ground. However, despite being so antisocial and having a very good reason for keeping women further than arm's length, he just makes a goofy face when Aria drags her bags into his apartment and tells him to become her slave. That's just plain inconsistent. His friend is so airheaded, subservient and obnoxiously begging for his approval that it's sickening. Someone with self-esteem that low and so hopelessly devoted to one person who won't even give them the time of day is disturbing. It's not endearing, it's not pure, it's not moe, it's just pathetic and irritating. She nearly breaks down in tears because he doesn't want the food she made. How is someone like this even admitted to a military school, much less able to handle the actual curriculum? The way the main character blows her off at every opportunity is the only remotely believable thing about her character. Aria's personality doesn't make much more sense. Initially, she's cold and professional in the line of fire. She doesn't seem to mind or even notice sticking her chest in the protagonist's face because not dying is more important, even though he may have been copping a feel while she was unconscious. Then she discharges her weapon multiple times in a crowded, confined space just to stop some immature teasing. That kind of reckless behavior is completely contradictory to what we're shown of her character previously because no one who has had that much experience with firearms would ever do something like that.

The dialogue is generally juvenile and obnoxious. It focuses way too much on the tired 'accusing someone of being a pervert with little basis and taking it way too seriously' which was never all that funny in the first place. The characters pander to tropes that don't fit their personalities. Except for the decidedly cynical and antisocial male lead, it just feels like someone threw a bunch of selling points into a bag, shook it up and made a story out of them without giving a lot of thought to how it should actually fit into a story.
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Old 2011-04-16, 14:58   Link #1142
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YoakeNoHikari View Post
...I'm a teenager, are you calling me irrational?

The point of the test is to root out all those that might feel the urge to kill.

Because no matter how irrational we are, the majority of us don't kill you for slighting us, even if it's within our means.

Because killing somebody is as easy as sneaking up to them and cutting their throat while they're asleep, you don't need a gun to do that.
I'm not even gonna bother arguing from this line anymore since i just don't know here to start. I mean if I have to go through every little detail to explain my point then we'll be here all day. I have a certain limit of how much I can be arsed arguing with a random stranger over the internet and you just hit it.

So instead I'm just gonna point out the other problem. I wanted to avoid it because it's not the worst reason why giving guns to teenagers is a bad idea but it's the easiest one to explain. Even if you're right and that they apparently have such discipline, we've been given next to nothing to indicate that they have such discipline in these schools. (Now you're probably thinking that's because it's only been one episode but you did ask for something that didn't make sense and i'm giving you one. I never said it was that big of a deal. Like I said, overall, i have mixed opinions.). This is particularly egregrious when a main character starts showing how impulsive and extremely lacking in discipline she really is. Now that's definitely an Internal Inconsistency. If the setting requires you to believe they're all completely responsible with their weapons then it's contradicting to show a character who is irresponsible enough to threaten people with her guns (even if she didn't hit anyone it's still bad enough threatening someone). I'm not against violence as comedy so on it's own it would've been okay but it's still contradicting. And I heavily doubt they will show any of this discipline because if it's anything like the military then that wouldn't be fun at all and so it wouldn't be good for story if it's trying to go on Rule of Cool. More likely they'll be given all the freedom to piss about.
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Old 2011-04-16, 15:01   Link #1143
Icy.Tear
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Actually, I already addressed this by saying that, they don't care how you use your guns as long as you don' t have an urge to kill and don't kill.
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Old 2011-04-16, 15:02   Link #1144
Haak
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So threatening people and other crimes are okay?
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Old 2011-04-16, 15:04   Link #1145
Xacual
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy View Post
The only character with any brains at all is, surprisingly, the male lead. He has an interesting ability with a silly weakness. The effect of purposely avoiding close relationships with other people, especially girls, has twisted his personality and made him interesting to watch. Explaining chronic hero syndrome as a genetic disorder that illicits an unwelcome, involuntary response to dangerous situations is a neat subversion of the typical hyper-righteous shtick that shows like Index have run into the ground. However, despite being so antisocial and having a very good reason for keeping women further than arm's length, he just makes a goofy face when Aria drags her bags into his apartment and tells him to become her slave. That's just plain inconsistent. His friend is so airheaded, subservient and obnoxiously begging for his approval that it's sickening. Someone with self-esteem that low and so hopelessly devoted to one person who won't even give them the time of day is disturbing. It's not endearing, it's not pure, it's not moe, it's just pathetic and irritating. She nearly breaks down in tears because he doesn't want the food she made. How is someone like this even admitted to a military school, much less able to handle the actual curriculum? The way the main character blows her off at every opportunity is the only remotely believable thing about her character. Aria's personality doesn't make much more sense. Initially, she's cold and professional in the line of fire. She doesn't seem to mind or even notice sticking her chest in the protagonist's face because not dying is more important, even though he may have been copping a feel while she was unconscious. Then she discharges her weapon multiple times in a crowded, confined space just to stop some immature teasing. That kind of reckless behavior is completely contradictory to what we're shown of her character previously because no one who has had that much experience with firearms would ever do something like that.
Despite the way Aria acted there was no way she could hit someone by mistake, she is way too skilled for that. Also Shirayuki's behavior will be explained more later, well even in the next episode you'll understand her a little better.

Also are you saying he went Hysteria Mode because of the dangerous situation? That's not so, it happens when he gets aroused, no matter the place or what's going on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
So threatening people and other crimes are okay?
Completely okay as long as you don't kill. Really don't try to bring real life logic into this. Butei agree to enter into this school and system where they accept that it is completely possible to lose their life.
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Old 2011-04-16, 15:09   Link #1146
Icy.Tear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy View Post
I don't mind the questionable logic of carrying loaded weapons on campus, honestly. My main problems are with the directing, characters and the writing.

Starting with a cold opening, then covering the events leading to it, showing the cold opening in context, and then finally resolving the situation is a tedious way to present an episode. There was really no reason to begin with the bike chase other than assuming everyone would change the channel if they started with the breakfast scene. Rather than messing with the order of the scenes, they should have just focused on making the actual beginning of the story interesting.

The only character with any brains at all is, surprisingly, the male lead. He has an interesting ability with a silly weakness. The effect of purposely avoiding close relationships with other people, especially girls, has twisted his personality and made him interesting to watch. Explaining chronic hero syndrome as a genetic disorder that illicits an unwelcome, involuntary response to dangerous situations is a neat subversion of the typical hyper-righteous shtick that shows like Index have run into the ground. However, despite being so antisocial and having a very good reason for keeping women further than arm's length, he just makes a goofy face when Aria drags her bags into his apartment and tells him to become her slave. That's just plain inconsistent. His friend is so airheaded, subservient and obnoxiously begging for his approval that it's sickening. Someone with self-esteem that low and so hopelessly devoted to one person who won't even give them the time of day is disturbing. It's not endearing, it's not pure, it's not moe, it's just pathetic and irritating. She nearly breaks down in tears because he doesn't want the food she made. How is someone like this even admitted to a military school, much less able to handle the actual curriculum? The way the main character blows her off at every opportunity is the only remotely believable thing about her character. Aria's personality doesn't make much more sense. Initially, she's cold and professional in the line of fire. She doesn't seem to mind or even notice sticking her chest in the protagonist's face because not dying is more important, even though he may have been copping a feel while she was unconscious. Then she discharges her weapon multiple times in a crowded, confined space just to stop some immature teasing. That kind of reckless behavior is completely contradictory to what we're shown of her character previously because no one who has had that much experience with firearms would ever do something like that.

The dialogue is generally juvenile and obnoxious. It focuses way too much on the tired 'accusing someone of being a pervert with little basis and taking it way too seriously' which was never all that funny in the first place. The characters pander to tropes that don't fit their personalities. Except for the decidedly cynical and antisocial male lead, it just feels like someone threw a bunch of selling points into a bag, shook it up and made a story out of them without giving a lot of thought to how it should actually fit into a story.
Right. You don't like it, I'm fine with that. Just pointing out a few things.

What you said about the opening probably hit the bullseye. If they started with a breakfast scene people might change the channel. I think that's a pretty good reason there already. I thought it was interesting enough to start in that order. Unless they're going to deviate from the LN, they can't do much about it.

A lot of what you're saying is explained in the light novel, such as Kinji's reaction to Aria

Spoiler for Not shown in anime. .:


...

Nobody who has that much experience with firearms would do anything like that? I see, your understanding of the human mind is great.

When Aria is sticking her chest into Kinji's face, might it not be possible that she doesn't realize it? She doesn't make any follow-up comment on that particular action, focusing only on the situation when she regained consciousness.

The rest of the points is just you not liking it, so have fun with that.

@Haak

Anything that doesn't go against the Butei Law is OK ^^

So far, only a few have been mentioned, with some gaps.

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2011-04-16 at 15:23. Reason: If the anime hasn't shown it yet, then don't put it here...
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Old 2011-04-16, 15:10   Link #1147
Chaos2Frozen
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I change my earlier, earlier statement. As it turns out there is something more ridiculous than people forcing their own views and logic into another world.

And that's people who can't tell the difference between a comical scene from one to be taken seriously. I know I know, it sounds really cool when you all type it out so big and thick and liney like that; but when I think about- It's actually really really silly to be so hung up on it and make such a huge deal about moral and ethics and how humans should behave.
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Old 2011-04-16, 15:16   Link #1148
Haak
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In my opinion what's ridiculous is people who can't stand other people's opinions and perspectives.
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Old 2011-04-16, 15:21   Link #1149
Icy.Tear
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I don't think that being serious about a comedic scene is bad.

I don't like other people who don't listen to the views of others.

That about sums it up, I guess.

Good arguing with you Haak, it was fun while it lasted, I guess.

The thing about online arguments is that genuinely changing the other person's standpoint is nigh-impossible. You can change how they think but you can't change how they feel.
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Old 2011-04-16, 15:22   Link #1150
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
In my opinion what's ridiculous is people who can't stand other people's opinions and perspectives.
Why? Don't tell me you actually expected zero resistance for your statements ?

Anyway it's losing battle when it comes to opinions and perspective; sure you can have them, and you can even voice them however way you want, but don't expect fans to just sit there and take it.

But hey, unlike Toaru, I'm a new comer to this series too, so what would I know?
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Old 2011-04-16, 15:23   Link #1151
Kagayaki
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Originally Posted by Xacual View Post
Completely okay as long as you don't kill. Really don't try to bring real life logic into this. Butei agree to enter into this school and system where they accept that it is completely possible to lose their life.
This policy could make for a really interesting premise if it was presented in a less cliched way (if that happens later, I see no sign of it so far) or if it was used for something genuinely funny. As it stands, it's just an excuse for showcasing Aria's tsun-tsun side, which I personally don't particularly enjoy. (If I wanted to see that again, I would go rewatch Zero no Tsukaima, then rewatch Toradora, etc.) I know it's trying to be comedy and all, but it's a joke I laughed at the first 50 times I saw it, and now it's boring.
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Old 2011-04-16, 15:26   Link #1152
Icy.Tear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagayaki View Post
This policy could make for a really interesting premise if it was presented in a less cliched way (if that happens later, I see no sign of it so far) or if it was used for something genuinely funny. As it stands, it's just an excuse for showcasing Aria's tsun-tsun side, which I personally don't particularly enjoy. (If I wanted to see that again, I would go rewatch Zero no Tsukaima, then rewatch Toradora, etc.) I know it's trying to be comedy and all, but it's a joke I laughed at the first 50 times I saw it, and now it's boring.
Maybe this is someone's 49th time watching it.

If you don't like Aria being a tsun, that's your problem, I guess. Nothing I can say about that.

Butei Law articles come up a few times throughout the series though, so it's not just an excuse for Aria to be able to blast her guns as long as she doesn't kill someone.
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Old 2011-04-16, 15:27   Link #1153
tsunade666
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
So threatening people and other crimes are okay?
threatening people are normal in this kind of set up where guns are normal but crimes are not okay. A butei that starts doing crimes isn't a butei anymore but a terrorist or a criminal. That's why they are students and being tutored to not ended up like criminals.

If a butei turn into a criminal then another butei will hunt him and catch him but an absolute rule on a butei is to never kill no matter what happens. And as the story goes you will see it.
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Old 2011-04-16, 15:27   Link #1154
Haak
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Why? Don't tell me you actually expected zero resistance for your statements ?

Anyway it's losing battle when it comes to opinions and perspective; sure you can have them, and you can even voice them however way you want, but don't expect fans to just sit there and take it.

But hey, unlike Toaru, I'm a new comer to this series too, so what would I know?
What I expected was common decency and that wasn't too much for YoakeNoHikari so it shouldn't be for anyone else.
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Old 2011-04-16, 15:28   Link #1155
CrowKenobi
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Since it appears that the circle is being drawn, let's drop the current argument until the anime shows us some answers (hopefully in episode 2).

On another point: Per the forum's Spoiler Policy, any future events can't be discussed (or even hinted at) even under spoiler tags! Let's be careful about that. If anyone needs to spoil, PM the information or create the light novel thread and direct them to it.
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Old 2011-04-16, 15:37   Link #1156
Dahak86
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well, well, well... quite a "serious" discussion we had for a harem anime, huh?
I'm impressed.
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Old 2011-04-16, 15:39   Link #1157
FatPianoBoy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YoakeNoHikari View Post
A lot of what you're saying is explained in the light novel, such as Kinji's reaction to Aria

Spoiler for Not shown in anime. .:
That's better, but this is the anime. I can't figure out why they would present that differently when doing so messes up his characterization.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YoakeNoHikari View Post
Shirayuki
That did actually cross my mind, but it's really hard to gauge how much thought actually went into this story from this episode, so I decided to just take it at face value. It would make sense and make her character more interesting, but I still feel like she's being too over-the-top with how hard she tries to get into his pants. And her approach is obviously not working very well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YoakeNoHikari View Post
Nobody who has that much experience with firearms would do anything like that? I see, your understanding of the human mind is great.
It's not about psychology. I've been around and used firearms my whole life, and that sort of behavior is right at the top of the list of things you just do not do. When around people who don't expect you to be firing, you always treat a gun like it is loaded, inaccurate, and you're not a good shot regardless of whether or not that is actually the case. It's the first thing you learn before any responsible adult will let you touch a gun. Obviously this rule is made to be broken when you're being shot at by half a dozen Segues with Uzis mounted on the handlebars, but there is no threat to life and limb in that classroom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YoakeNoHikari View Post
When Aria is sticking her chest into Kinji's face, might it not be possible that she doesn't realize it? She doesn't make any follow-up comment on that particular action, focusing only on the situation when she regained consciousness.

The rest of the points is just you not liking it, so have fun with that.
Yeah, I figured she didn't even notice. That being the case means that she was supremely focused on the hot lead whizzing past her face, which goes along with the cold professionalism in the line of fire. It's fine being annoyed by it under normal circumstances, but it becomes a pretty low priority once you start getting shot at. That was actually one of the positive things about the episode. I've seen a lot of shows where compromising positions and glimpses of naughty bits take precedence regardless of how many people are trying to kill the characters at the time, which is just stupid.

And yeah, my dislike of the dialogue is purely subjective.
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Old 2011-04-16, 15:56   Link #1158
Icy.Tear
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Sorry about the spoiler tags, should've read forum rules more closely.

At any rate, I didn't want to tell people they were wrong without giving some proof, but I'll keep that in mind for the future.
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Old 2011-04-16, 15:57   Link #1159
mukansa monkey
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Hel-lo nurse!

Lemme get this straight now. This show has:
*Two* twintail girls
A serious-looking girl with grey hair
Gratuitous amounts of firearms
And a setup reminiscent of Regios

Hell yes, count me in!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
But I meant what I've said; I was able to learn more stuff watching Discovery and History channel than I'd cared to learn about from books. And sometimes other non-educational focus shows like CSI, Numbers, Burn Notice, House, Fringe, White Collar etc

This would hold true for Aria as well; Like every healthy little boy, I like to see guns in action,and for once there's an anime to my liking that would involve guns.. lots of guns. With any luck my knowledge of the subject would increase ten folds by the end of this series
You'd probably learn more about guns from Asobi ni Ikuyo. That show's got gun porn like K-ON! has musical instrument porn. Oh, and as a fellow of watcher of Fringe, I have to say that you shouldn't try to learn much from that show. Most of the "science" in it is really full of crap, just plausible-sounding enough to not sound stupid.

Okay, I have to weigh in on the whole "quality" debate. You wanna know a group that's really insular and obsessed with certain tropes? People who took literary criticism in college. They sit around telling each other what's good and what's bad, without realizing that the whole thing is pretty much made up by themselves. Trying to claim an absolute standard for quality is doomed to failure, partly because there's always a counterexample, but mostly because there's no real way to standardize what people value from art. If it sells well, because lots of people enjoy it, how can you say it's objectively bad unless you're one of those self-absorbed literary elitists? It's all subjective.

BTW I consider a thousand-page novel a weekend's reading. But I can enjoy something that's fairly simple and straightforward like an LN as well. On the other hand, half the stuff I get told is "classic" is pretty much garbage. Hemingway? One of his books has two pages straight of two people talking to each other in very short sentences. With absolutely no text identifying who's who. Create an entire world with multiple internally consistent cultures and hundreds of years of history, and get dismissed as just fantasy. Write a wall of choppy text where the reader has to count lines just to tell who's speaking, and you're teh awesome. That's the stupidity of literary criticism.
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Old 2011-04-16, 16:08   Link #1160
Icy.Tear
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Well, the whole point of the above argument (at least for me) was to make people see what they thought was an objective dislike was in truth, a subjective dislike.

Not sure if I succeeded though.
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