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Old 2010-05-05, 06:58   Link #261
Gooral
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Scanlation with gernot's translation is out (in case anyone's interested). As usual Weils' translation was pretty accurate. The last page and one before that are more clear now though.

Last edited by Gooral; 2010-05-05 at 07:18.
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Old 2010-05-05, 07:14   Link #262
DragoZERO
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I agree with you on that one, DragoZERO.

What I appreciated most about Claymore was that story was confined within a single setting, plagued by the machinations and the skirmishes of the Org with all the stuff about the Yoma and ABs, for example.

However, the moment that Yagi introduced the whole mainland issue presented through Miria in ch. 79 and 80, then I felt that the plot lost its feeling of exclusiveness; how can I put in words?

I felt Claymore's story value went down a little generic, because it added something foreign like the mainland war to what it seemed to me at that point to be an internal conflict within a closed setting.
I didn't think it hurt the story. It explained where everything came from. We always thought there was something more going on but would have never guessed it was something of that scale.

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Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
Spoiler for Space Saver:
If he does go off island, it should be in a spin off series after Claymore ends. It exposes so much more and our heroines will have to deal with the problems of another country. So long as they destroy the Organization, preventing them from reporting their recent progress.

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Although... it would be cool to have a Toriyama style time skip, and have Clare's kid(s) (assuming that Raki is not as completely impotent as he looks, of course [...then again, Clare is resourceful and what Raki doesn't know...]) continue on the adventure on the mainland in "Claymore 2". That's just wild wishful thinking though.


Can Claymores even do that though??

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Old 2010-05-05, 07:22   Link #263
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Dauf should've just stuck one of those rods into Riful.

And speaking of the mainland, it would be nice if Pris and Clare end up teaming up.
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Old 2010-05-05, 07:33   Link #264
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Originally Posted by Shiryuu View Post
Dauf should've just stuck one of those rods into Riful.

And speaking of the mainland, it would be nice if Pris and Clare end up teaming up.
There is absolutly no way in hell Clare would team up with Priscilla. I mean Clare might not be the brightest crayon in the box but she would neeeeeeeevvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrr team up with Priss.
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Old 2010-05-05, 14:16   Link #265
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There is absolutly no way in hell Clare would team up with Priscilla. I mean Clare might not be the brightest crayon in the box but she would neeeeeeeevvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrr team up with Priss.
Anything is possible; Raki could be a big reason why those two would theoritically team up together.

Thanks for the heads-up Gooral

I don't agree with you Yoko - I think Claire has always implied that Priscilla has always been her number 1 concern.

Raki has never really been her number one concern above all else; she postponed looking for him to help the Claymores held by Riful. She said to Miria in the North that she wanted to find Raki, but more importantly, the "souls of the departed" couldn't allow her to stay in the North any longer(or something like that). Although he is very important to her, that importance is outweighed by her own feelings and ambitions.

As for the Organization, while she does feel the same feelings of wanting to avenge the fallen in Pieta like Miria, again, in the North, she seemingly implied something in the "souls of the departed"; I always imagined she was specifically referring to Teresa with that.
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Old 2010-05-05, 15:09   Link #266
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Raki is important but not that level... I mean she was ready to awake despise the fact that she never met him during those 7 years.

I really don't see those 2 teaming up. Beside Priscila might not really care about him, she just liked his scent. It might have been Clare's aka Teresa's scene that was left. Now that Priscila has intent to kill Clare, she might as well Kill Raki when they meet again.
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Old 2010-05-05, 15:11   Link #267
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While I'm not so sure about Priscilla's view of Raki, she did leave him alive unlike everyone else in the village.

Could be something as simple as "thanks for leading me here" to "Sorry I didn't want you to get injured but there's nothing I can do now"
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Old 2010-05-05, 15:18   Link #268
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While I'm not so sure about Priscilla's view of Raki, she did leave him alive unlike everyone else in the village.

Could be something as simple as "thanks for leading me here" to "Sorry I didn't want you to get injured but there's nothing I can do now"
I really hope light is shed on what happened in that town, even just a little.
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Old 2010-05-05, 16:17   Link #269
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Originally Posted by Shiek927 View Post
I don't agree with you Yoko - I think Claire has always implied that Priscilla has always been her number 1 concern.
If so, why stay with Miria and the others for 7 years in a place where's there's nothing but snow, rocks and death? 7 years is a pretty darn long time, even for a Claymore, to just sit around. If Clare was so adamant on finding Priscilla asap and avenge Teresa, she would not have sat in the snow for that long, especially considering how impatient she is and how past events have proven that. Yet she decided to stay with the rest of the ghosts, who then left on a mere whim of Clare's following a sparring match between her and Miria.

Taking down Priscilla has been her number 1 priority ever since the beginning of the manga, but I feel that changed when she learned from Miria that the Black Black Club itself is producing the very same Yoma that killed her parents and abused her, the same Yoma that transformed Priscilla into the monster that killed her second mother, Teresa. Her motivations for destroying the BBC seem pretty high, similarly to her motivation to destroy Priscilla. She doesn't care who goes down first. It depends on who crosses her path first.

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Raki has never really been her number one concern above all else; she postponed looking for him to help the Claymores held by Riful. She said to Miria in the North that she wanted to find Raki, but more importantly, the "souls of the departed" couldn't allow her to stay in the North any longer(or something like that). Although he is very important to her, that importance is outweighed by her own feelings and ambitions.
I do not argue against this point. I said so myself, Raki is not as important to Clare as her revenge on either Priscilla or the Black Black Club. She cares for Raki, that's definitely true, but he came to her life much later than either Priscilla or the BBC, and she's dedicated her life to the destruction of Priscilla and later the BBC. Raki is just someone she became affectionate with on the way. This is unlike Teresa's case, who fought Yoma simply because she liked to kill. Clare became the most important thing to her shortly after they met because to her, fighting was a normal, everyday thing, and she didn't much care for that. Clare has a much deeper reason than that for fighting.

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As for the Organization, while she does feel the same feelings of wanting to avenge the fallen in Pieta like Miria, again, in the North, she seemingly implied something in the "souls of the departed"; I always imagined she was specifically referring to Teresa with that.
Perhaps she meant both. After all, she cared very much for Jean, who died because of her as a matter of fact. Sure, she may not have been as important as Teresa to her, but she was important regardless, so much that she appeared in her vision of meeting Raffaella within the Destroyer 7 years after her death.
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Old 2010-05-05, 17:10   Link #270
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I believe Clare's concerns at this point in the story are as follows

1) Killing Priscllia

2) Not letting anyone else die because of her
  1. Killing Awakened Beings
  2. Killing Yoma
3) Stopping the org

4) Raki

However I don't believe Raki is at the bottom of her list since she doesn't care about him but because she does care about him. Clare still hasn't forgive herself over her fear, Teresa's Death, Jean's Death, etc... She hates herself because of what happened to them. It is because she hates herself that she puts Raki at the bottom of her list since in her mind she doesn't deserve happiness. She believes she needs to set things right by killing Priscilla (and as many ABs/yoma as she can take down along the way) and then die herself. While I think she wouldn't mind also taking down the org, she sees that as something Miria can do. As to why Clare has been looking for Raki, it is just so she can settle her score with Priscilla without anything holding her back and so she can be happy knowing he will survive.
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Old 2010-05-05, 20:33   Link #271
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I think Raki is number 3. She looked for him for all of those years the best she could...and hasn't stopped. Maybe I'm just hoping she'd prioritize him more though. His relationship with her is supposed to parallel her's with Teresa, which means they have to save each other still.
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Old 2010-05-05, 22:47   Link #272
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Would you guys say it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that the principal characters would end up in the mainland war?

I seem to recall reading that Yagi planned around 26 vol for the manga and we're not even close to that and characters are dying left and right...
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Old 2010-05-05, 22:50   Link #273
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I missed a lot of nice discussion so far

Looking back at the chapter, it was really well done, especially the close up of Priscilla on 20. If only the cat hands had been slightly different.

As far as the discussion goes, I do not think Claire is all that organized to be honest. Yes, she wants revenge against Priscilla, revenge against the Org, and to find Raki, but I do not think she really has it that perfectly figured out.

Consider when Rubel discussed Rene being captured by Riful. Her line was that she wanted to meet Raphaela. It was somewhat out of nowhere. I would consider that type of reasoning to be typical of Claire. She will do whatever is the most pertinent, so long as it does not directly compromise her code.

If it came down to a choice between Raki and a villain, I think she would choose Raki for 2 reasons. First, it was her code to protect humans. Second, Raki would be directly present, which is important. Part of the reason that that she was so willing to drop everything for Priscilla could be that that nothing else was present to truly divide her attention (no Org, no Raki).

Claire will prioritize whichever compromises her code the least. Priscilla is a slight exception in that she was willing to awaken, however that does not appear to be the full extent of her code.
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Old 2010-05-06, 00:49   Link #274
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Would you guys say it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that the principal characters would end up in the mainland war?

I seem to recall reading that Yagi planned around 26 vol for the manga and we're not even close to that and characters are dying left and right...
I believe they will play a larger role in the shape of that war, be it solely on the island or actually going to the mainland I don't really care. However they do have a larger role in it's future than what they've done up to now.

Lets look at the losses during Pieta and now

Pieta*
  1. Veronica
  2. Undine
  3. Flora
  4. Rigardo
  5. Jean
  6. Luciela
  7. Raphaela
*Not including Eva before the battle

Now
  1. Isley
  2. Raphaela (again )
  3. Alicia
  4. Beth
  5. Riful
  6. Dauf
  7. (maybe Renee)
(while Alicia and Beth are important plot wise they weren't even close to being developed characters... Flora and Undine were more developed for crying out loud)


Kill counts close to the same... however it's the antagonist death rate which is the change this time but in there stead we have gained two monster titans of power (sure Priscilla was there but before but doing a whole bunch of nothing), two groups of demonic mindless hordes, an evil organization who only cares about creating mindless killing machines (plus there forces and creations on the mainland), and an unknown foe even they haven't defeated in over 100 years, also we have the possibility of what Raki could become and/or could be made from him. So the last two AOs dying isn't that big of a deal for the long term survival of the series, though I'll miss them there deaths in no way prove the end is near and not enough has happened proving Yagi is wrapping up loose plot angles. Also since Renee seems to be the only real possible protagonist death this time around (and were still not sure she is dead), we have many more protagonists that can die...

The other difference between Pieta and now is this time it's total war and not limited war. So more may die but at the same time there been a build up in characters and the author can afford to kill them off... just look at Berserk, at one point they killed off all but 3 characters add to that one went bad guy, one lost her mind, leaving only the main character. While I highly doubt Claymore will go that far, if it does the only difference would be that since Claymore's characters are far more developed the scope of the loss would be far more tragic to the readers. Also there is nothing preventing Yagi from adding more characters or giving old ones who haven't been utilized that much a bigger role. So nothing, plot wise, is preventing Yagi from reaching the ~26 volumes he mentioned prior.

I believe the series will hit at least 25 chapters, though I could be very wrong... It's just to me we have many plot issues left (which we all know so there is no point in bringing them up) and I see many ways both Clare and Priscilla can survive this, their first fight doesn't have to be there last. Clare and company could force Priscilla's retreat. Their fight could be cut short by another entering the battlefield and/or The Destroyer making things too difficult for Priscilla to get to Clare. Or worst case scenario, Priscilla wins this fight beating Clare to the edge of her life (likely killing Deneve and Helen first). lets not worry about the details now but there are many possible ways... such as Priscilla just let her live knwoing she's already defeated inside, Clare could fake her death, Priscilla wins but not have the chance to finish her off for whatever reason, Clare won't fake her death but for whatever reason Priscilla will think Clare is dead but somehow she'll live (maybe Teresa will keep her alive ), Priscilla realizes Clare isn't Teresa and can seemingly never match her power so she lets her live to prove she has beaten the fear she had of Teresa, or whatever else Yagi may have up his sleeve. There is nothing indicating Clare has to win this fight... only that Priscilla isn't going to make things easy for her. We've all been jumping the gun by solely speculating there can only be one after the fight.

Also we have no clue who is really stronger Priscilla or The Destroyer. Everyone keeps saying Priscilla is destined to destroy Raciela (I wanted to avoid using the Pun). However we have no basis for comparing the two. We can't accurately compare their powers until at least next chapter but only speculate and we have a dismal track record with that so far .
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Old 2010-05-06, 05:18   Link #275
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errrr....there can only be a FEW protagonists, renee and the others are supporting characters which are on the "good" side, which is why i think you mistook her for a protagonist. the protagonists is basically a main character around whom the events of the narrative's plot revolve and with whom the audience is intended to share the most empathy i can't see renee that way, so...

and by the way, priscilla did say she would like to"kill her one more time". judging by her character...so i guess that rules out the possibility of her willingly letting clare live. in fact, killing her would actually mean she's conquered teresa. sorry,but i kind of don't agree with some things you say, no hard feelings

moving on from this minor detail, im rly excited to see wats in store for the next few chaps...i guess we are gunna see some great fights. besides, my exams would have ended by then
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Old 2010-05-06, 07:51   Link #276
DragoZERO
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Also we have no clue who is really stronger Priscilla or The Destroyer. Everyone keeps saying Priscilla is destined to destroy Raciela (I wanted to avoid using the Pun). However we have no basis for comparing the two. We can't accurately compare their powers until at least next chapter but only speculate and we have a dismal track record with that so far .
It really is impossible to do that, hahaha. I think the Destroyer has more raw power, but it is mindless and so that will be the cause of it's demise.
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Old 2010-05-06, 07:56   Link #277
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It doesn't make sense to count Rigaldo if your not counting Alicia + Beth later on.

He had barely, if any character development before his death.

Also, I really never thought of Raphaela as a "loss" at the time of the Pieta War.
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Old 2010-05-06, 08:30   Link #278
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It doesn't make sense to count Rigaldo if your not counting Alicia + Beth later on.

He had barely, if any character development before his death.

Also, I really never thought of Raphaela as a "loss" at the time of the Pieta War.
But Rigardo is one of the few who had more character development after his death lol (extra chapter 3 and Duph's talk with Gaheh or whatever that other male AB's name was)

Raphaela is technically the case since she lost her sense of self at that time. She is physically alive but its no different than being brain dead.
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Old 2010-05-06, 09:24   Link #279
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I believe Clare's concerns at this point in the story are as follows

1) Killing Priscllia

2) Not letting anyone else die because of her
  1. Killing Awakened Beings
  2. Killing Yoma
3) Stopping the org

4) Raki

However I don't believe Raki is at the bottom of her list since she doesn't care about him but because she does care about him. Clare still hasn't forgive herself over her fear, Teresa's Death, Jean's Death, etc... She hates herself because of what happened to them. It is because she hates herself that she puts Raki at the bottom of her list since in her mind she doesn't deserve happiness. She believes she needs to set things right by killing Priscilla (and as many ABs/yoma as she can take down along the way) and then die herself. While I think she wouldn't mind also taking down the org, she sees that as something Miria can do. As to why Clare has been looking for Raki, it is just so she can settle her score with Priscilla without anything holding her back and so she can be happy knowing he will survive.
I think it's a little different:

Here's how I see it:

1) Killing Priscllia

2) Not letting anyone else die because of her
  1. Killing Awakened Beings
  2. Killing Yoma
3) Stopping the org

So where's Raki on the list? Simply, he's not; Raki and her list of priorities are two different things. She goes about her own needs, but the second she hears something about Raki, she postpones everything indefinitely and immidiately goes after him. In that sense, he automatically shoots to the top of the list, and stays that way for a good long while until something related to the first Three choices comes along...more accurately, the likelihood of her stopping, happens depending on how high it is on the list.

For example, if she hears something about Raki, she'll immidiately go looking for him, but if she then hears something on Priscilla, she jumps to 1) and goes straight for her.

You can argue that she gave up searching for him for awhile to help the Claymores in Riful's lair, but you can also argue that it wasn't until something so serious came along, that she finally stopped for a little while.

---


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Also we have no clue who is really stronger Priscilla or The Destroyer. Everyone keeps saying Priscilla is destined to destroy Raciela (I wanted to avoid using the Pun). However we have no basis for comparing the two. We can't accurately compare their powers until at least next chapter but only speculate and we have a dismal track record with that so far .
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That's not necessarily true.

We know for fairly good certainty that Priscilla is within the range of being 3 to 4x AO(it's possible she's over that, but from what we know thus far, I don't go for that because it would be overkill), and we know that Raciella is at least 2xAO.

While we may not know their specific strength, and which one of the two is indeed stronger, we do have a pretty good idea how strong they are at least, and it would only be fought back with a new development. Thus far, from what we know, Priscilla is stronger which is why people say she can kill her.
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Old 2010-05-06, 10:09   Link #280
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Originally Posted by Shiek927 View Post
(...)
While we may not know their specific strength, and which one of the two is indeed stronger, we do have a pretty good idea how strong they are at least, and it would only be fought back with a new development. Thus far, from what we know, Priscilla is stronger which is why people say she can kill her.
But the problem is, Duff managed to do more damage to Priscilla than Riful, Alicia and Beth combined which contradicts with your "Priscilla is at least as strong as 3 abyssals" (because it would mean that pumped up #2 was stronger than 3 abyssals also). Furthermore, just because Priscilla defeated Alicia and Beth fighting simultaneously with her it doesn't necessarily mean she was 2x or more stronger than them. If on a street someone defeats two punks that just means he can defeat two such punks, not that he can lift two times more than them or is faster 2 times (he could be defeated by other punks of the same strength but with better technique for example). And let's not forget that Riful was already half-dead when Priscilla found her, Beth and Alicia weren't in top shape either (because they've had mental problems). So if anything, Priscilla is at least 2x abyssal also.
Priscilla had quite a bit of a problem with Duff that was upgraded with 2 hellcats (or 3 or sth), Destroyer should be much more powerful. All in all she defeated him in seconds but an army of such Duffs could pose a threat to her.

There is however one thing that suggests Priscilla might be stronger than Destroyer - Deneve said that Priscilla is sth else than she has ever seen and she felt Destroyer. So who knows? On the other hand they're running towards Raciella right now so Deneve must think it would be rather even fight. Oh, and about that, that idea isn't any better IMO than escaping from Priscilla and Destroyer (and it's funny that a moment earlier Deneve and Helen were waiting on Priscilla, lol). I mean, what makes her think that Priscilla would even want to fight Destroyer (or vice versa)? Wouldn't it be too much of a bother? What would stop her from killing them first anyway? And if Deneve and Helen were close to Destroyer wouldn't they be attacked also? I know they didn't have much choice at this point but this decision is far from being reasonable. Probably Yagi will give Clare a power-up once she's near Raciella and that's why he set it up. Because I won't believe that Priscilla would prefer to fight godzilla over small fries that she could kill in seconds (and dodge all Destroyer's attacks BTW). Also, Priscilla defeated Duff in seconds as I've written earlier, there was some monologue along the way but it could last 2 minutes at most. I'm sure though that it was JUST enough for girls to escape and reach Destroyer in time . Probably Clare is waking up too.

Oh, and wouldn't it be more convenient for them to escape with their swords on their backs (as my friend Piggy noted)? Which begs the question, do they even have means to attach it to their backs? Or maybe they can fly that way (i.e. run with their bodies almost laying on the ground like in Naruto )...

Last edited by Gooral; 2010-05-06 at 10:28.
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