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Old 2010-11-13, 19:32   Link #801
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Fathers using their positions of power to coerce their daughters is the primary example. Of course child abuse should be prevented and punished, but the same laws that do that also block consentual incestuous relationships. If both parties enter into it willingly, no abuse is happening so there's no reason to object to it.
This point touches upon one of my pet peeves, namely the age of consent. What irritates me is that I find it incredibly condescending to question someone's ability to make a choice based solely on their age, which is a pretty poor indicator of one's ability to make good decisions. Dakota Fanning, for example, is way more competent and mature than Paris Hilton even though she's, like, half her age...and yet, she's legally a child and discriminated against. Doesn't really seem fair to me, that.

I've also never seen the appeal of using a position of power to coerce someone into doing something they find unpleasant, so I guess that means I'd make a pretty lousy pedophile.

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Aaand those are the main arguments of my paper in a nut shell There's nothing inherently wrong with incest, it's just a belief that's been held so long that it's hard to change. But hey, society used to think homosexually was wrong too so all hope is not lost.
Not to question your findings, but how long and how widely has incest carried this social stigma? I've read a lot about widespead misconceptions that people have about things always having been a certain way when they definitely haven't. Abortion, for example, was pretty widely accepted back when the U.S. was founded but only started being stigmatized from the mid to late 19th century onwards until Roe vs. Wade came along. Hell, something resembling same-sex civil unions existed in France six centuries ago according to one historian. Has incest always been a taboo or has it entered similar cycles of acceptance and condemnation?

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I personally am not a supporter of the incest route though. Kirino just isn't a good person =/ I'd be much happier with Kyousuke/Manami or Kyousuke/Kuroneko
Amen to this. I'm all for Kyousuke/Manami, probably because I'm perpetually stuck in the Friend Zone myself.
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Old 2010-11-13, 20:10   Link #802
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Incest is often called a "universal taboo". All cultures have some form of this taboo, though who counts as family varies widely. For example, one culture only views lineage in terms of the father. Two kids from the same father are considered family and thus aren't allowed to hook up, but two kids with the same mother but different fathers won't be viewed as related.

Incest has been prohibited throughout the ages, with only a few exceptions. Ancient Egyptian royalty were exclusively incestuous (siblings only) for the sake of keeping their lineage and power within the family.

The taboo has generally been enforced by whoever is in power, though. In middle age Europe, the church enforced a very broad definition of incest. So broad that people would have to go two towns over to find some one not considered their relative. This was done because the church wanted to reduce the number of legitimate offspring. Land owners would have no heirs, so when they died the church got possession of all their property.

Anyways, if Kirino and Kyousuke decide to cross that line, then it's probably best they run away to some place where no one knows they're siblings. It's been noted they don't look alike so they should be able to pull it off
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Old 2010-11-13, 23:33   Link #803
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While it's true that incest is frowned upon in most societies I do believe it's one of those issues where" as long as no one is being harmed then there's no problem". Homosexuality went through the same problems; mostly it's just phobia of something not well understood and after more research/publicity/support the detractors lost ground and more acceptance began.

In fact the biggest factor in prohibiting incest, the problem of defective genes, isn't that big a problem. The number of people with such genes are small anyway so the chances of any family being affected aren't high (gl if you are though >_> ). Also the lack of genetic diversity shouldn't be *too* much of a factor if it's only across one generation. The Kousaka family seem to be pretty healthy so hopefully if they *do* hook up and they *do* decide to have kids they won't run into too much angst.

BTW lol for those of you who do support Kiri x Kyou (most of you of course <3 ) how did you come to not mind the whole incest thing (a bit of a problem for some narrow minded people)? For me it was Tsukihime (#%^%$ sibsex?? oh not related) to stuff like Angel Sanctuary/Vampire Knight (this is so wrong but why am I not put off) to finally where I am now (100% accredited wincest supporter!) Anyone else got any stories?
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Old 2010-11-14, 00:12   Link #804
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I don't support Kirino/Kyousuke. Not because I have a problem with incest, but because I have a problem with Kirino's personality. If she was actually nice, then maybe I'd support them.

As for how I came to not mind incest, I'm not entirely sure. I just found myself enjoying stories with that element, thought it added an interesting twist. I'm not particularly close to any of my siblings, so maybe I'm overcompensating
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Old 2010-11-14, 01:35   Link #805
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Originally Posted by Seitsuki View Post
BTW lol for those of you who do support Kiri x Kyou (most of you of course <3 ) how did you come to not mind the whole incest thing (a bit of a problem for some narrow minded people)? For me it was Tsukihime (#%^%$ sibsex?? oh not related) to stuff like Angel Sanctuary/Vampire Knight (this is so wrong but why am I not put off) to finally where I am now (100% accredited wincest supporter!) Anyone else got any stories?
Don't worry, you're not alone, I'm a Kyousuke x Kirino supporter I'm very open minded about any romantic relationship because the heart takes many shapes and while incest is rare, it still happens. I don't necessarily condone incest but if both participants of the relationship are aware of the consequences, then who am I to judge them or tell them what to do? I tend to follow this line of thought:

"The heart has reasons, which reason cannot understand"

Admittedly, I'm an only child so I wouldn't understand how people with actual siblings feel about this topic. Although I do have cousins that I grew up with that were like my siblings (females of course ) It's obviously more difficult for those with siblings to accept anything involving incest but at the same time, you shouldn't relate to these fictional characters and compare it to your life all the time. I treat them as individuals and keep an open mind.

I've watched Akane-iro ni Somaru Saka, Myself; Yourself, True Tears but most importantly Koi Kaze. The first 2 are a little iffy on incest since one has hints of no relation between the pair and the other doesn't clarify whether it involved incest at all. But the latter 2 do involve incest as a serious theme. Koi Kaze actually opened my eyes quite a bit and I can't help but not have a problem with a romantic relationship between siblings if their hearts are true to one another.

I must say though, I'm not a parent yet so I wouldn't understand how it would feel if your own children ended up in such a relationship either, so that's another area that is definitely touchy. But as of right now, I really keep myself open about it.

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I don't support Kirino/Kyousuke. Not because I have a problem with incest, but because I have a problem with Kirino's personality. If she was actually nice, then maybe I'd support them.

As for how I came to not mind incest, I'm not entirely sure. I just found myself enjoying stories with that element, thought it added an interesting twist. I'm not particularly close to any of my siblings, so maybe I'm overcompensating
Kirino's personality is due to her being a tsundere. I think the biggest problem most people have with Kirino is that there is too much tsun tsun, and not enough dere dere But I have a feeling Kirino will develop some more dere dere moments later in the show and especially if we are treated to a second season

I'll admit that Kirino is very abusive and unappreciative of Kyousuke's help, but it's supposed to be funny for the most part and it seems like most viewers are taking Kirino's antics just a tad too seriously. Either that, or they're comparing their siblings to Kirino which will create a different perspective. It's obvious that Kirino has hidden sentiments about Kyousuke so let's just wait and see what happens before passing judgment
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Old 2010-11-14, 02:23   Link #806
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While I do have sisters (both younger and older) I will have to agree that the real world and 2D world don't mix too well in this regard. Lately though I've been thinking.. "Fantasies by people who don't actually have a sister", indeed. >_> <_<

I seriously don't see what people are complaining about in Kirino. Sure she still has issues to work out but that's what development is for. If she started out ideal, like Kyousuke's imaginary imouto (note how he wanted a *subservient* one ;D ) then she would be bland like how Manami is bland *equips fire shield*. Besides, she's won my heart with her awkward sincerity and there's no way in hell something small like incest is going to get in the way of that. So Kyousuke, you'd better come around and realise you feel the same way! Not to mention it's so obvious they care for each other much more than they let on, it's cute watching them squabble and smugly thinking "yeah riight now hook up already" xD
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Old 2010-11-14, 02:37   Link #807
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What I can't get over is while Manami offers the world Kyousuke wants he simply doesn't seem to go for her advancements. She clearly cares for him a great deal and is hoping for more than a friendship. So right now I am not sure Kyousuke is really looking for anything, which actually makes him more likable for me.
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Old 2010-11-14, 02:56   Link #808
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I seriously don't see what people are complaining about in Kirino.
You know it's bad when the author, the person who created her in the first place, hates her guts and says "I think she's an annoying spoiled brat."

Yeah, I guess I'd say the problem with her is that she's 99.9% tsun, 0.1% dere. I have this inherent issue with tsunderes: If you want the guy to like you, DON'T TREAT HIM LIKE SHIT! Be, ya know, NICE to him!

I'm tired of this double standard. If a guy hit a girl like that, he would be seen as scum, but when a girl hits a guy like that, it's hilarious and makes her adorable. Maybe all men are masocists deep down inside

Well, if Kirino keeps this up, she's going to lose him to another girl.
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Old 2010-11-14, 02:57   Link #809
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What I can't get over is while Manami offers the world Kyousuke wants he simply doesn't seem to go for her advancements. She clearly cares for him a great deal and is hoping for more than a friendship. So right now I am not sure Kyousuke is really looking for anything, which actually makes him more likable for me.
Yeah, I'd probably go with that as well. Kyousuke seems to be nonchalant towards Manami's advances and really seems excessively laid-back. I can see why he's more likable for most viewers considering he doesn't come off as indecisive, which seems to plague most animes that involve romance.
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Old 2010-11-14, 03:00   Link #810
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Oh yes, I often find myself annoyed at the indecisiveness it gets old after the first few anime. However, Kyousuke is simply living his life and has been dragged into something peculiar. He's being really good to Kirino and when he stood up to the father for her- I was literally at the edge of my seat in awe.
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Old 2010-11-14, 03:03   Link #811
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Yeah, I guess I'd say the problem with her is that she's 99.9% tsun, 0.1% dere. I have this inherent issue with tsunderes: If you want the guy to like you, DON'T TREAT HIM LIKE SHIT! Be, ya know, NICE to him!
But then where's the fun in that

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I'm tired of this double standard. If a guy hit a girl like that, he would be seen as scum, but when a girl hits a guy like that, it's hilarious and makes her adorable. Maybe all men are masocists deep down inside

Well, if Kirino keeps this up, she's going to lose him to another girl.
Honestly I don't see it as adorable, I just find it hilarious I'm inclined to think that maybe most guys are masochists

Well I'm mostly interested in finding out Kirino's feelings on their relationship since childhood, because it's obvious she has some deep-seated issues about something involving Kyousuke's demeanor towards her.
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Old 2010-11-14, 04:11   Link #812
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Here are the profile pages from the first 2 novels:
-Snip-
Thank you. I haven't been able to get the books since moving to Korea.

What strikes me as very annoying is the weight of Kirino and Ayase. Just how they manage that sort of weight is beyond me.....

Also, damn you Kirino for having a slightly more voluptuous body when we're the same height



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Old 2010-11-14, 05:26   Link #813
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
You know it's bad when the author, the person who created her in the first place, hates her guts and says "I think she's an annoying spoiled brat."

Yeah, I guess I'd say the problem with her is that she's 99.9% tsun, 0.1% dere. I have this inherent issue with tsunderes: If you want the guy to like you, DON'T TREAT HIM LIKE SHIT! Be, ya know, NICE to him!

I'm tired of this double standard. If a guy hit a girl like that, he would be seen as scum, but when a girl hits a guy like that, it's hilarious and makes her adorable. Maybe all men are masocists deep down inside

Well, if Kirino keeps this up, she's going to lose him to another girl.
LOL
i like your statement..
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Old 2010-11-14, 05:57   Link #814
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Maybe all men are masocists deep down inside
Well..... Maybe that's why my fiance letes me go after girls even after we're engaged

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Old 2010-11-14, 06:16   Link #815
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Yeah, I guess I'd say the problem with her is that she's 99.9% tsun, 0.1% dere. I have this inherent issue with tsunderes: If you want the guy to like you, DON'T TREAT HIM LIKE SHIT! Be, ya know, NICE to him!
Here here!! Completely agree - I've never liked the ones that stay tsun forever! Seriously, Kirino may be unbelievable, but Kyousuke's even more so, since he hasn't snapped and just slapped her by now....

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But then where's the fun in that
It just gets old over 7 volumes...
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Old 2010-11-14, 06:34   Link #816
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Here here!! Completely agree - I've never liked the ones that stay tsun forever! Seriously, Kirino may be unbelievable, but Kyousuke's even more so, since he hasn't snapped and just slapped her by now....
You have no idea how people can take that much abuse and stay with it.


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It just gets old over 7 volumes...
Actually, I find it getting interesting, as Kirino is being more blatant than ever before, while Kyousuke is still not getting the situation.
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Old 2010-11-14, 12:39   Link #817
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While it's true that incest is frowned upon in most societies I do believe it's one of those issues where" as long as no one is being harmed then there's no problem". Homosexuality went through the same problems; mostly it's just phobia of something not well understood and after more research/publicity/support the detractors lost ground and more acceptance began.
To paraphrase a well-known statement, new ideas gain widespread acceptance and go mainstream not because you succeed in convincing your opponents that you're right, but because they die off over the course of time.

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"The heart has reasons, which reason cannot understand"
This philosophy only works to an extent in real life. There're some people out there who're the relationship equivalent of adrenaline junkies: they thrive on conflict and drama. Plus, the heart may want what it wants, but I think that human beings are capable of balancing that out with plain old common sense. I mean, take Charlie Sheen, for example. The dude's a shameless womanizer and has two highly-publicized abusive marriages in the past decade. Any woman that attempts to get seriously involved with him and expects a happy ending after this firm establishment of his pattern of behavior is a golddigger, a complete sucker for looks, has an unhealthy obsession with bad boys, or is a complete moron.

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I seriously don't see what people are complaining about in Kirino. Sure she still has issues to work out but that's what development is for. If she started out ideal, like Kyousuke's imaginary imouto (note how he wanted a *subservient* one ;D ) then she would be bland like how Manami is bland *equips fire shield*.
We're complaining precisely because Kirino isn't developing or working her issues out. She's recruited her brother as an accomplice to maintain her public facade and reputation, mostly by using him as a scapegoat.

As for Manami being bland...you speak of that as if it were a bad thing. I, for one, have never seen the appeal of a rollercoaster relationship where epic highs are followed by cataclysmic lows that involve shouting matches coupled with physical and/or verbal abuse. I'd much rather have a stress-free, quiet, healthy relationship with a steady, unwavering level of contentment and comfort. Screw the bad girls, I prefer the cute, quiet, bookish ones with glasses who're shy and reserved...and quite possibly tigers in the sack.

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What I can't get over is while Manami offers the world Kyousuke wants he simply doesn't seem to go for her advancements. She clearly cares for him a great deal and is hoping for more than a friendship. So right now I am not sure Kyousuke is really looking for anything, which actually makes him more likable for me.
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Yeah, I'd probably go with that as well. Kyousuke seems to be nonchalant towards Manami's advances and really seems excessively laid-back. I can see why he's more likable for most viewers considering he doesn't come off as indecisive, which seems to plague most animes that involve romance.
Having come back from a fresh re-watching of Episode 6, I think that the one major difference in this episode from the previous five is quite telling. Episodes 1 to 5 mostly told the story from Kyousuke's point of view and make quite clear that he doesn't like advertising his true feelings when in the company of others. We only get insight into what he's really thinking when he's either alone and expressing his emotions out loud or through the inner monologues that only he (and the audience) are privy to. What's different is Episode 6 is that both of these narrative devices are absent and we're left trying to figure out what he really thinks of Manami based on his reactions and body language. We have zero insight as to his true feelings towards her. Given his protectiveness towards Manami, Kirino's jealousy towards her, and his classmates' reactions, and her grandparents' behavior, I think the true extent of his feelings are quite obvious to everyone but himself.

Plus, the nighttime dialogue between Manami and him at the end of this episode kind of confirms things if you read in between the lines. He just doesn't seem to see the point of rushing things based on the expectations of others and is willing to wait for Manami to figure out what she wants to do in her own good time.
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Old 2010-11-14, 14:12   Link #818
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Given his protectiveness towards Manami, Kirino's jealousy towards her, and his classmates' reactions, and her grandparents' behavior, I think the true extent of his feelings are quite obvious to everyone but himself.

Plus, the nighttime dialogue between Manami and him at the end of this episode kind of confirms things if you read in between the lines. He just doesn't seem to see the point of rushing things based on the expectations of others and is willing to wait for Manami to figure out what she wants to do in her own good time.
I don't think it's quite that straightforward...

The thing about Manami is that there is no mystery to her character for Kyousuke. Her little teasing comment about taking a bath with him is about as far as it goes, only to be quickly rebuffed by introversion and propriety. He's a 17-year-old boy who's clearly showing some interest in girls, and due to all the latest developments, he's being exposed to a lot of new people. He's got to be a little curious. While he had already sort of resolved himself to the "normal" life at the beginning of the first episode, this is mostly because his sister was, in his mind, so far past what he was able to do. He considered any other sort of world out of reach for him, so he had convinced himself it was for the best. But now...?

I think there's a part of Kyousuke that still finds an appeal in the simple life, and he certainly cares for Manami after knowing her for so long. He doesn't want anyone to hurt her. He probably reasons in some ways that a steady life with her wouldn't be so bad. But I don't think it's that he "hasn't realized his feelings", but more that he hasn't actually settled on his future yet. Manami isn't the type of girl he could just "date" (what's the point? he already knows everything there is to know), she's the type of girl he would be expected to marry, and he's not ready for that by any stretch. So he probably doesn't think it would be right for her or for him to try to "settle down" just yet. I think the college conversation is sort of a form of procrastination -- if he gets that far and his life plans haven't changed, then he can consider settling down. I don't think it has anything to do with wanting to wait for Manami at all. I think there's a difference between being in love with someone and coming to the realization that you could "come to love" someone. Manami's not without her appeal, but there's a lot more than her in his life right now, and he's not ready to commit.

All IMO, of course. There's nothing wrong with Manami at all... I just think the story is leading Kyousuke away from her, and not towards her.
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Old 2010-11-14, 14:36   Link #819
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Well, at the moment Kyousuke is resisting being drawn to the 'dark side' that Kirino represents. He still finds dealing with her and her hobby is weird and crazy, so Manami is important as she's his anchor to the normal and peaceful life he is so content with.

I agree that as the story goes on and he comes to enjoy the otaku life style more and more, Manami will lose some of her significance and it may lead him to persue different avenues with certain other people...
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Old 2010-11-14, 20:05   Link #820
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What I can't get over is while Manami offers the world Kyousuke wants he simply doesn't seem to go for her advancements. She clearly cares for him a great deal and is hoping for more than a friendship. So right now I am not sure Kyousuke is really looking for anything, which actually makes him more likable for me.
What you seem to want is not necessarily what you actually want.
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