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Old 2010-05-11, 03:09   Link #21
Ash Falls Town
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
As long as people recognize that CR and Funi are only going to hit the "sweet spots" (maximal parts of the bell curve) and there will always be "low volume" anime they ignore
Eh Crunchyroll has plenty of C-grade titles and other stuff that would fail in the R1 DVD market. Things like Miracle Train and Shin Koihime Musou are things that would be undersubbed in the first place. Of course Crunchyroll really dropped the ball this season but this was definitely right since last spring.

Actually I would hazard a guess that this seasons slim pickings are due to underperformance from some of their A grade titles like Durarara (Aniplex didn't give them Night Raid this season after all). However circumstantial evidence suggest the Marvelous Entertainment and Kodansha titles are doing well (Which includes stuff like 11eyes and Omari Himari).

Anyway Quarkboy has said that Crunchyroll tries to get nearly anything it can. Although the situation may have changed since then.

@bisocce
You should stop making more threads about streaming and Crunchyroll etc. It would be much more convenient if everything was in one thread and the thread title was more generic.
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Old 2010-05-11, 09:08   Link #22
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
However, its also just as likely that the anime industry in Japan will decide the "overseas" market isn't worth the trouble and return to serving just the domestic audience as they used to.
Conversely, given that a number of foreign fans have started buying R2 DVDs, I wonder if NOT licensing out to foreign distributors and turning a blind eye to fansubs might actually help the anime industry 'serve' foreign fans...

Though then again, I don't know if there are any fans with low Japanese ability who'll buy the Japanese DVDs just because they feel guilty keeping the subs? (Almost everyone I've seen mention buying R2 dvds - as opposed to American ones - does so partially because they can understand a decent amount of what's said...)
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Last edited by karice67; 2010-05-11 at 10:04.
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Old 2010-05-11, 09:38   Link #23
darktruth
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Though then again, I don't know if there are any fans with low Japanese ability who'll buy the Japanese DVDs just because they feel guilty keeping the subs? (Almost everyone I've seen mention buying R2 dvds - as opposed to American ones - does so partially because they can understand a decent amount of what's said...)
You'll find a few over at the Mania forum who do import R2's but have low to zero understanding of Japanese, mainly because of the bonuses and quality of the releases than guilt.
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Old 2010-05-11, 10:04   Link #24
karice67
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Originally Posted by darktruth View Post
You'll find a few over at the Mania forum who do import R2's but have low to zero understanding of Japanese, mainly because of the bonuses and quality of the releases than guilt.
Ah...good to know there are kindred spirits out there. (My own first R2 was a special 4 disc Ghibli release of Howl's Moving Castle...a year or two before I actually started studying Japanese....)

If this trend gets any bigger, I really think the best thing for the Japanese industry might be to let fans translate and thus advertise their shows (and especially, all the extras) for them. Though this obviously wouldn't be of much help for the Western industry...
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Old 2010-05-11, 10:10   Link #25
Vexx
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Ah...good to know there are kindred spirits out there. (My own first R2 was a special 4 disc Ghibli release of Howl's Moving Castle...a year or two before I actually started studying Japanese....)

If this trend gets any bigger, I really think the best thing for the Japanese industry might be to let fans translate and thus advertise their shows (and especially, all the extras) for them. Though this obviously wouldn't be of much help for the Western industry...
That's why a number of fans (especially the collectors) wouldn't be crushed if the commercial licensed distribution industry in the US disappeared. The peanut gallery would still have their fansubs, the collectors would still have access to fansubs for previewing R2 purchases -- and everyone who buys merchandise would still be buying merchandise (figures, CDs, etc). If the commercial licensed anime people don't find a way to provide a *service* that supports the customer in those endeavors, then they're ultimately screwed because they're simply constructing artificial walls and barriers ("highway robber tollbooths").

I've spent the last few years buying a LOT of R1 DVDs (about 30 linear feet of DVD shelving) trying to match my purchases 1:1 for series that I like, but lately I'm starting to think I may just take that money flow and simply buy a few R2 DVD collections each year. I don't use the english dub track and many of the sub-only purchases have had really substandard packaging lately. I tend to be interested in franchises with "low volume interest" with some exceptions.
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Old 2010-05-11, 11:41   Link #26
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
You might not know this.. but that line has been used repeatedly ("death of ....") for the last century for technologies that nonetheless stuck around.
That's not true Vexx because,......



...lemme get back to that after I changed the transistortubes in my 2009 guitaramp
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Old 2010-05-11, 19:12   Link #27
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One thing to point out is that R2 releases are a lot more expensive. From what I heard they only get 2 episodes per DVD and the prices per DVD are a lot more than what we pay for 3-4 episodes per DVD. I could be wrong, but I remember reading a ton of ANN articles and other articles about R2 releases being released in this manner.

Personally, I'd never buy R2 releases. I have to know the language before I even consider buying a product. I'd love to learn Japanese, but I just don't see that happening. I love the original artwork, and I'd love to support the authors more directly. I just can't justify spending money on something I can't understand.

Saying that, I guess I'm a bit of a hyprocrite. I've bought the Chaos;Head visual novel. I have to rely on fan translations, so in a sense I admit R2 releases may work in the same manner.

Dubs get a bad rep online, and I personally don't care for them much. However, I think the dub fanbase offline is pretty big. I'd wager a majority of collectors offline only care about dubs. I can't prove that though, so this is all my opinion. I don't know any numbers, so I'm not sure how big of an impact that would have if the US industry would fail. Most dub watchers won't buy R2 releases, so that'll be money lost. How much money? No idea.
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Old 2010-05-11, 22:52   Link #28
Master_Yoma
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
I have bad feelings on this one. I hope it wouldn't end up that they suspend the dubbed viewing before the series ends. And plus, ain't Strike Witches that anime with main characters wearing no pants (not pantsu)?
Well they probably wont get it tell its all most done any ways then wait for 6 months to a year before they release it any ways. Yes Strike Witch is the one with out pants
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Old 2010-05-12, 00:47   Link #29
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I never like statistics.. how many of those views come from one person?

also TV broadcast will never be dead.. it isn't like there is only anime to air on TV..

secondly I am certain CR will die sooner or at least will change their policy even further in a way that isn't in our benefit (your benefit actually I don't go to that site at all).. somewhere along the line something will mess this up that always happens, first it is fun and sweet and then all of a sudden lawsuit

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Old 2010-05-12, 00:51   Link #30
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
From the referenced article, quoting Iwata who heads up the animation for TV Tokyo:
"as it stands, we may have to go back to the way it was in the past — back to selling Japanese animation only to the Japanese marketplace."

I'm not sure that would be a bad thing (for the japanese anime industry).
The Japanese market is in serious trouble too (due to a combination of fans buying less and the increasingly insular nature of the market. Broadening the market again has proven to be extremely tricky). Companies like TV Tokyo wouldn't be so quick to embrace overseas streaming if they believed their industry were self-sustainable.
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Old 2010-05-12, 04:02   Link #31
Marcus H.
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Originally Posted by Master_Yoma View Post
Well they probably wont get it tell its all most done any ways then wait for 6 months to a year before they release it any ways. Yes Strike Witch is the one with out pants
My concern was based also in Viz's licensing of Shakugan no Shana Light Novels. Their translation screeched to a halt in the second volume (of twenty-one, currently) and there have been no word of them continuing. Yet they still took down Baka-tsuki's translation project of the Light Novels with a C&D even though Viz themselves has not proved that they are worthy to do such an action.
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Old 2010-05-12, 04:42   Link #32
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alamarco View Post
One thing to point out is that R2 releases are a lot more expensive. From what I heard they only get 2 episodes per DVD and the prices per DVD are a lot more than what we pay for 3-4 episodes per DVD. I could be wrong, but I remember reading a ton of ANN articles and other articles about R2 releases being released in this manner.
Personally, I'm fine with the DVD prices on Amazon Japan. It hurts my pocket a fair bit, but to me, it's fair given how much it actually costs to produce an anime (around 15 million yen an episode in 2008 (source) - that's about USD140,000, before counting the cost of the TV spot or other advertising). It also helps me pick and choose carefully, which I think the "gimme! I want everything and I want it cheap!" attitude in the West would do well to be tempered by.

Quoting Quarkboy from Mania Forums...
Quote:
1. In practice this is impossible. Although it would be a good thing for Japanese fans, even at the current prices the products are mostly just barely profitable. If prices were lowered to the level they are in america the products would no longer make a profit and companies would end up ceasing production.
We should also note that whilst an anime might be produced by a production committee, composed of studio and various merchandising or even unconnected parties *coughpizzahutcoug*, I doubt that the profits are shared amongst the companies involved. Each company probably profits only from the products it is ultimately responsible for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alamarco View Post
Most dub watchers won't buy R2 releases, so that'll be money lost. How much money? No idea.
For the original production company under the traditional licensing system, just the licensing fee (of which GDB said here...).
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
I don't have the links to back it up, but I've seen various numbers and terms. Some around 10k, some higher, some that don't even require an up-front cost but rather provide a large percentage of revenue/profit to be handed over. It really depends on the licensor, licensee, and license.
I assume that some companies would have royalties paid too...but in all honesty, I doubt the figure matter much compared to those in the Japanese market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJR View Post
The Japanese market is in serious trouble too (due to a combination of fans buying less and the increasingly insular nature of the market. Broadening the market again has proven to be extremely tricky). Companies like TV Tokyo wouldn't be so quick to embrace overseas streaming if they believed their industry were self-sustainable.
I personally feel that it needs to come down even further from the high of a few years back (as I mentioned in another thread). We discussed a number of pertinent issues there too, if anyone else wants to take a look. I found the brief exchange about customer goodwill especially interesting.

Btw, I was quoting from this thread on Mania Forums about "Japan's view of region coding and reverse importation fears." It's old, but contains several issues and discussions relating to our topic.
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Old 2010-05-12, 05:02   Link #33
bayoab
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Originally Posted by alamarco View Post
One thing to point out is that R2 releases are a lot more expensive. From what I heard they only get 2 episodes per DVD and the prices per DVD are a lot more than what we pay for 3-4 episodes per DVD. I could be wrong, but I remember reading a ton of ANN articles and other articles about R2 releases being released in this manner.
R2J is anywhere between $15-$30/episode on average. Some go even higher. R1 buyers pay at most $6/episode for singles and something like $4 an episode for box sets. (And people bitch about $2/episode.)

Quote:
However, I think the dub fanbase offline is pretty big. I'd wager a majority of collectors offline only care about dubs. I can't prove that though, so this is all my opinion. I don't know any numbers, so I'm not sure how big of an impact that would have if the US industry would fail.
It's a very good hypothesis based on the old stats. Unfortunately, nobody has released any new stats.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJR View Post
The Japanese market is in serious trouble too (due to a combination of fans buying less and the increasingly insular nature of the market. Broadening the market again has proven to be extremely tricky). Companies like TV Tokyo wouldn't be so quick to embrace overseas streaming if they believed their industry were self-sustainable.
TV Tokyo wasn't quick at all to embrace streaming. It took them years to get their act together. Gonzo was the first given that they were desperate and Kadokawa was one of the few who realized the possible potential early. Japanese companies realize that they need to adapt to new technology and at the same time refuse to take the step forward until they see someone else do it first. Also, it should be noted that Kadokawa was pulling in their revenue through flagging fan produced, not the shows themselves, Youtube content as "allowed by copyright holder for ad revenue sharing".

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Personally, I'm fine with the DVD prices on Amazon Japan. It hurts my pocket a fair bit, but to me, it's fair given how much it actually costs to produce an anime
But amazon Japan is heavily* discounted compared to the anime shops which rely on the store specific bonuses.

*A 20% discount in Japan is a heavy discount for new DVDs.

Last edited by bayoab; 2010-05-12 at 05:14.
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Old 2010-05-12, 05:22   Link #34
karice67
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Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
But amazon Japan is heavily* discounted compared to the anime shops which rely on the store specific bonuses.

*A 20% discount in Japan is a heavy discount for new DVDs.
But the producer is always paid the same price for a disc sold, if I'm not mistaken. The loss in profits actually transfers to the retailer, in this case amazon.

And another issue...one bad thing about NOT licensing anime to the West however, is that such an approach would ensure that Japanese consumers have access to the HD DVD rips that encoders upload, which potentially reduces the numbers of DVDs sold. Whilst I do believe that there is more goodwill to the production companies here than in the West (because they won't be around to produce the anime we want if we don't support them!), there are still more companies than the soon-to-be dwindling Japanese population can probably sustain, especially if the younger generations are getting onto this 'free DVDs!' mentality too early.
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Last edited by karice67; 2010-05-12 at 07:30.
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Old 2010-05-12, 12:35   Link #35
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
My concern was based also in Viz's licensing of Shakugan no Shana Light Novels. Their translation screeched to a halt in the second volume (of twenty-one, currently) and there have been no word of them continuing. Yet they still took down Baka-tsuki's translation project of the Light Novels with a C&D even though Viz themselves has not proved that they are worthy to do such an action.
Same with Tsukuyomi Moon Phase and ARIA ... Tokyopop has completely halted both series, won't say a thing about them, yet continues to hold the license after more than a year of silence. We've had a number of instances of anime series left in limbo and streams vanishing. For the consumer, it quickly becomes "WHY SHOULD I INVEST IN YOU AT ALL IF YOU WON'T PLAN AND COMMIT TO AN ENTIRE SERIES RUN".

I've become fairly skittish at committing to manga or anime expenditures because of this flakiness (and its because they don't line out the entire series budget-wise, they don't appear to manage their business "past the quarterly report").
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Old 2010-05-12, 19:07   Link #36
alamarco
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Personally, I'm fine with the DVD prices on Amazon Japan. It hurts my pocket a fair bit, but to me, it's fair given how much it actually costs to produce an anime (around 15 million yen an episode in 2008 (source) - that's about USD140,000, before counting the cost of the TV spot or other advertising). It also helps me pick and choose carefully, which I think the "gimme! I want everything and I want it cheap!" attitude in the West would do well to be tempered by.
Good point. No doubt anime has high production costs and I'd rather companies continue to produce high quality work then cut back just to lower DVD costs. You can easily tell a high quality anime when you see one.

If it came down to it, I'd still buy anime if the prices were to rise. So long as it's in a language I can understand, I'm willing to buy it so long as it's priced reasonably. I'd be hoping that higher prices means higher quality. I don't mind paying for quality and that's why I enjoy Crunchyroll far more than FUNimation. Both are doing great, but Crunchyroll offers 720p videos were FUNimation does not. I hope FUNimation can change to 720p videos as well, as I don't mind paying a monthly/yearly fee.
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Old 2010-05-12, 21:48   Link #37
bayoab
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
But the producer is always paid the same price for a disc sold, if I'm not mistaken. The loss in profits actually transfers to the retailer, in this case amazon.
I don't know about DVDs but there were a few articles that make it out to be that Amazon buys at a lower wholesale price on eroge. Amazon's pre-order discount "You Pay" price was less than the wholesale price the smaller shops would have to pay and thus they were considering getting their stock off Amazon.
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Old 2010-05-12, 22:51   Link #38
Master_Yoma
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
My concern was based also in Viz's licensing of Shakugan no Shana Light Novels. Their translation screeched to a halt in the second volume (of twenty-one, currently) and there have been no word of them continuing. Yet they still took down Baka-tsuki's translation project of the Light Novels with a C&D even though Viz themselves has not proved that they are worthy to do such an action.
Well not that many people read light novels and there a little hard to find as well so there is not alot of money to be made releasing them. But it would be nice to get some more light novels
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Old 2010-05-13, 04:18   Link #39
karice67
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Any links or examples?

I've been trying to look around at how DVDs are actually distributed here, but am finding it difficult to find information for anything other than publishing (books) (where there IS a fixed price for all items, and a returns system, which is why books are almost NEVER discounted).

From what I can gather from this and another article I can't find atm, DVDs reach the end-user like this:
anime production company => distributor (wholesaler) => retailer => end-user

There is another entity - the company that actually produces the merchandise (i.e. DVDs) - unlike publishers, who probably have in-house departments or closely associated companies for printing, anime producers probably have to go through another party because they don't have the resources to package and produce their own works. - but I'm not sure if they're part of the distributing companies or not.

Looking at prices on amazon and at a few articles/studies, it seems like retailers negotiate with the distributors to buy a certain number of copies to sell. In this case, then large stores like Amazon have an advantage over the smaller stores.

However, the link between the distributors and the animation production companies is less clear. The question would be: is it based on number of copies moved? Or is it a percentage of the negotiated price with the retailer? Or even a percentage of the final sale price (which would make it an absolute headache for the accountants!)?

=====

In any case, amazon is the most convenient for me, because of where I live and because I'm not too inclined towards the extras that the 'smaller' retailers offer to entice buyers.
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Last edited by karice67; 2010-05-14 at 06:55.
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Old 2010-05-13, 06:21   Link #40
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i have watched anime on youtube but not those others sites.

Hmm guess i should go check them out
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