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Old 2010-11-06, 12:15   Link #201
orion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
So Kuronosuke tries to pair off Shu with Tsukimi. Not interested in girls himself? Or just not interested in Tsukimi? Or too shy in matters of romance to pursue her?
Kuronosuke already said that he was straight. Perhaps he just wants to be friends for now. He really doesn't know a lot about her yet except that she has low self esteem.
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Old 2010-11-06, 12:41   Link #202
Kaoru Chujo
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Originally Posted by Ashlotte View Post
Must be nice to live in a country with low health care costs and government sponsored insurance...No way you could pull this off in the states without a good solid job or you really would be a very large burden on your family if something ever happened to you...
Good point. The Japanese health care system involves private insurers and providers, but under government price control. A family pays ~$250/month premium, and people with low incomes are subsidized by government. Everyone is covered. Japan spends under ten percent of GDP on health care of all kinds, public and private. The US, with its largely private system, spends over 15 percent.
Spoiler for more health care stuff:
I'm not overly interested in the nuns, but as people they don't seem that unrealistic: just exaggerations of people I have actually met and liked. As Tsukimi transforms (in what ways, I'm not sure), perhaps they will undergo their own transformations.
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Old 2010-11-06, 13:08   Link #203
Guardian Enzo
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
Kuronosuke already said that he was straight. Perhaps he just wants to be friends for now. He really doesn't know a lot about her yet except that she has low self esteem.
I know he said it - I'm just wondering if it was true. No reason to doubt him - but Tsukimi certainly seems like a more natural match for him than for Shu. It's also possible that this was the first time Kuronosuke had seen his brother show interest in a girl and just wanted to follow that thread.
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Old 2010-11-06, 13:43   Link #204
Sparrow1770
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Kuranosuke treats Tsukimi like his private dress-up doll. He takes it for granted that being "beautified" is a good thing. He doesn't ask her permission, he just does it. (Just like the way he barges uninvited into her apartment day after day.)

Tsukimi reacts with understandable embarrassment. She does not see herself as one of the "beautiful people," and is uncomfortable with being thrust forceably into that role.

I thought it was also a good depiction of how the insular otaku culture reacts to apostates, people who try to "switch sides," so to speak. A mixture of jealousy and a feeling of being betrayed.

Kuranosuke represents the "other," the "foreign." He has led a privileged life, blessed with wealth and good looks (and of course, a foreigner's blond hair.) He has an outgoing and overbearing personality, taking no note of politeness or courtesy. He even goes so far as to cross-dress in order to avoid the career his father has laid out for him.

And, he seems completely unable or unwilling to understand Tsukimi or the other otaku girls. He doesn't recognize or particularly care when he is being rude to them, he simply bulldozes ahead without worrying about such trivialities.

But, given the way that Tsukimi has insulated herself from society, perhaps this is the only way he could ever gain access to Tsukimi. She has built a wall so high around herself, no one can get in without using a bulldozer.

I'm hoping the story will dig a bit deeper into the "princess" theme. For instance, why does Tsukimi need to become a beautiful princess in order to achieve fulfillment? Are appearances really that important? Kuranosuke serves as a good way to force Tsukimi out of her shell, but hopefully he can also be disabused of the notion that what Tsukimi really needs is a makeover.
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Old 2010-11-06, 14:41   Link #205
bahamut zero
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Does anyone else think it would be funny if the BL Mangaka Shutin turns out to be Kuranosukes Mother?
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Old 2010-11-06, 14:42   Link #206
physics223
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Originally Posted by Sparrow1770 View Post
Kuranosuke treats Tsukimi like his private dress-up doll. He takes it for granted that being "beautified" is a good thing. He doesn't ask her permission, he just does it. (Just like the way he barges uninvited into her apartment day after day.)

Tsukimi reacts with understandable embarrassment. She does not see herself as one of the "beautiful people," and is uncomfortable with being thrust forceably into that role.

I thought it was also a good depiction of how the insular otaku culture reacts to apostates, people who try to "switch sides," so to speak. A mixture of jealousy and a feeling of being betrayed.

Kuranosuke represents the "other," the "foreign." He has led a privileged life, blessed with wealth and good looks (and of course, a foreigner's blond hair.) He has an outgoing and overbearing personality, taking no note of politeness or courtesy. He even goes so far as to cross-dress in order to avoid the career his father has laid out for him.

And, he seems completely unable or unwilling to understand Tsukimi or the other otaku girls. He doesn't recognize or particularly care when he is being rude to them, he simply bulldozes ahead without worrying about such trivialities.

But, given the way that Tsukimi has insulated herself from society, perhaps this is the only way he could ever gain access to Tsukimi. She has built a wall so high around herself, no one can get in without using a bulldozer.

I'm hoping the story will dig a bit deeper into the "princess" theme. For instance, why does Tsukimi need to become a beautiful princess in order to achieve fulfillment? Are appearances really that important? Kuranosuke serves as a good way to force Tsukimi out of her shell, but hopefully he can also be disabused of the notion that what Tsukimi really needs is a makeover.
First, good post. Second, I'm glad that he's being rude, that there's something foreign in Tsukimi's life. Otherwise, the Amars will probably remain stuck-up middle-aged women and will suck Tsukimi into their old age in due time. I'm not fond of most of them, since Mayaya is just stupidly overemotional and Banba is just stupid. I'm glad someone called them out, and I'm glad that someone has flaws one could call out, as well. It's a crime to force such a beautiful lady into otakuhood just because of their kindness, and no, acting like a retard or a hyperventilatory man-faced loquacity isn't endearing.

She's uncomfortable because she does not want to be rejected by her adopted family. But she wants to be beautiful, and she says so in the first episode. She wants to be accepted into society and would have liked to be seen as a princess because it was also what her mother wanted. Her discomfort stems from a respect and reciprocation of the Amars' kindness towards her: she simply feels it would have been betrayal if she went back looking like that.

I don't think the show espouses looking beautiful to achieve fulfillment; on the contrary, I think it believes that it's all right to seek to improve oneself while staying absolutely true to oneself. Tsukimi thinks that it's impossible being an otaku and a princess at the same time but the title of the series itself offers the answer: when was it not possible? It was never impossible to be oneself and yet to seek positive change. One does not have to contradict the other, and this is what Tsukimi will learn as the show progresses.

I disagree that Tsukimi doesn't need a makeover: she does, but not merely physically. She needs an ideological makeover, and I love how Kuranosuke trolls the hell out of them and forces them out of their comfort zone. Frankly, I think that it's high time for Tsukimi to know that she was never anything but a princess. She's already starting to recognize her potential, and that's good.
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Old 2010-11-06, 23:25   Link #207
keri
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
I know he said it - I'm just wondering if it was true. No reason to doubt him - but Tsukimi certainly seems like a more natural match for him than for Shu. It's also possible that this was the first time Kuronosuke had seen his brother show interest in a girl and just wanted to follow that thread.
Pah, there's no reason that a guy and a girl can't be good friends. I honestly don't think Kuranosuke should have to like Tsukimi in a sexual way, it seems enough for me that he thinks she's an interesting person and wants to be her friend (though he's going about it in a hamfisted way, treating her like a dress-up doll). Note how in this episode, he reflects that he truly likes the way she has something she loves and isn't all about appearances, the way his other friends are - whom he ditched twice in favor of Tsukimi. He seemed to really be struck that she and the other nunz don't have much money, but Tsukimi puts a lot into taking care of Kurara. He also seems bewildered by it, but it's possible to both admire something and be confused by it.


Also, I live that Banba says she's "eight" years old. It took me a moment to do the math (32!), but with her size and train interests, the 8 just feels appropriate and amusing. (Most of the people I personally know who are interested in trains are kids, though I know it's a very common adult hobby, too.)
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Old 2010-11-07, 13:03   Link #208
Falkor
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episode 03 - why is it that girls have to be pretty?

This episode in particular was great, probably the best so far, not only because of Tsukimi's temporary makeover, but also because we were presented with more details of Kuranoke's life. I think I've rewatched it more than once, especially the last scenes which are my favorite part. The lovely music, the story itself---or how we explore the character's thoughts, their feelings and motivations---everything was done so well and felt extraordinarily captivating. I think it's one of the few shows that can blend the more dramatic tones with quirky humor in such a seamless manner, and still make it enjoyable.

Kana Hanazawa continues to provide us such a lively and charming performance; it really surprises me how much I'm loving her voice. it does help that I like Tsukimi's character a lot, and so far, she is capturing her different mental and emotional states. I was so fond of that scene where Tsukimi was imitating a ghost (?) ---I'm not sure, but what exactly was she saying? :P---her appearance was scary and funny at the same time, and worked to the effect of creating such a memorable and hilarious scene. "~megane, megane" made me giggle...

and the ending continues to grow on me, but I'm slowly getting an idea of how the lyrics relate to the underlying theme of the show. I think, we are beginning to see the fine strokes defining what Kuragehime is about, what this work is about; and this can be illustrated by Tsukimi's line right before the ED: "Why is it that girls have to be pretty".

I was pondering about it, trying to connect the little dots. I think it directly points to the expectations that girls can only be seen as pretty, but it also plays with the idea that they can't remain (nor be accepted) as they are, without the beauty. This idea of beauty is actually treated as a superfluous concept; by this I mean that anyone can become beautiful with the right make-up and clothing. Kuranosuke, for example, embodies this notion of superfluous beauty because he, with the right make-up and clothing, becomes a beautiful lady even though he is male. his belief that girls deep down want to be pretty also reinforces this notion of his character, which conflicts directly with Tsukimi's values: she wants to remain (and perhaps be accepted) by how she is, not by the make-up or the clothing; this latter, I want to think, is the point the work is trying to make: although anyone can become a pretty girl, it takes an extra step to see past the make-up, and accept them by how they are.

I have been unsettled by this notion that people have to change because it does not go according to their expectations. There is, underneath all, nothing really wrong about the hobbies a person may have or the way they look. it's ironic, for example, how Shuu's perception of a person completely changes due their external appearance: he can be charmed by Tsukimi's "doll-up" version and make all kind of good assumptions about her character, but at the same time be intolerant of how she normally looks, and still create an image of her. it will be really interesting how he may eventually come to terms with Tsukimi's true and real appearance, because she and the other females shouldn't be the ones to change their ways.

Interestingly enough, I don't see Tsukimi as someone who lacks confidence or self-esteem. She may see Kuranosuke and the world associated to him as a distant place, and deem it as something unfit for her; perhaps, not necessarily because she believes herself to be unpretty (or unable to become beautiful), but because she is happy as she is, with the people she lives. Of course, she is probably interested in Kuranosuke's world as part of her curiosity; but she doesn't want this world to take away the happiness she already found. I think this can be illustrated by the scene where Tsukimi runs away from the mansion, fearing her appearance will ostracize her from the people she can relate the most. Her fears may as well be unfounded, but I want think the bond they have built is a very important part of herself, which she doesn't want to lose at all costs. it would be interesting to see whether the apartment building is taken down; the possibility would undoubtedly affect their lives.

Last episode I was wondering if Kuranosuke's father already knew of his son's hobbies, mostly because I see Kuranosuke as someone who does not hide things from others. Cross-dressing is a strong part of himself and goes along with his interests, but I also see it as a way to express his disagreement over the expectations set upon him by his family. The fact that he shows up in female attire during a family reunion, just so he can annoy and unsettle his father, may as well serve as an example where he communicates his dissatisfaction to others. I don't necessarily think that he is running away from a set of expectations and responsibilities, as much as he is expressing his discrepancy over the path that is perhaps being forced upon him. Why should the son of a politician become a politician as well?

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Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
Objecting to the nunz' lifestyle seems beside the point, to me. One of the whole points of this show is contrasting freedom (nunz and crossdressers) with restrictive conformity (Kuranosuke's family), and showing the downsides of both. The nunz' life is joyful and sad at the same time. They justified it in the show by referring to the high unemployment rate and the comparative wealth of their parents' generation. But it really needs no justification, as part of the drama. And I'm sure there are thousands of otaku, in Japan and abroad, who live that way: cheaply on an allowance plus part-time work.
I get the feeling they might be already aware that living off their parents' allowance is not ok, but they can't help really it. The justification sort of added a sarcastic tone to the scene, like trying to say that doing so was ok when it really isn't. I found it humorous, of course.

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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
So Kuronosuke tries to pair off Shu with Tsukimi. Not interested in girls himself? Or just not interested in Tsukimi? Or too shy in matters of romance to pursue her?
I think he wants other people to notice how pretty, nice and special Tsukimi is. But he may have other motives as well, like trying to boost her confidence so he can easily convince her to dress up more often, and be the one to do the makeovers.

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Originally Posted by physics223 View Post
She's uncomfortable because she does not want to be rejected by her adopted family. But she wants to be beautiful, and she says so in the first episode. She wants to be accepted into society and would have liked to be seen as a princess because it was also what her mother wanted. Her discomfort stems from a respect and reciprocation of the Amars' kindness towards her: she simply feels it would have been betrayal if she went back looking like that.

I disagree that Tsukimi doesn't need a makeover: she does, but not merely physically. She needs an ideological makeover, and I love how Kuranosuke trolls the hell out of them and forces them out of their comfort zone. Frankly, I think that it's high time for Tsukimi to know that she was never anything but a princess. She's already starting to recognize her potential, and that's good.
I had a different reading of Tsukimi's character. I don't think she really wants to be accepted into "greater" society, or become a beautiful princess in the process. My reasoning is that she is already happy as she is and finds her life enjoyable with the people she lives---people of similar hobbies/interests that relate to each other in a reciprocal way. I'm not saying that she can't change or she shouldn't change; change is good most of the times, but it shouldn't come before she is exposed to this world she sees so distant. I would love to see how her thoughts and feelings are explored as she clashes with Kuranosuke's values and ideals. Her interaction with him is good not only because of the humorous and more subdue tones, but also because it gives her the opportunity to experience what had so far evade her.

Oddly enough, I don't think Tsukimi really needs to change in order to become a princess; she is already a princess as she is.

=====

methinks her normal looks are better. :P
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Old 2010-11-07, 13:34   Link #209
Kelis
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Of course, she is probably interested in Kuranosuke's world as part of her curiosity; but she doesn't want this world to take away the happiness she already found. I think this can be illustrated by the scene where Tsukimi runs away from the mansion, fearing her appearance will ostracize her from the people she can relate the most. Her fears may as well be unfounded, but I want think the bond they have built is a very important part of herself, which she doesn't want to lose at all costs.
I don't think her fears were unfounded at all. I believe that the 'nuns' would have been betrayed by her appearance. They judge based on appearance just as much as Shu or any others who take one look and declare them weird, although in a different way.
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Old 2010-11-07, 14:39   Link #210
Sparrow1770
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It's a crime to force such a beautiful lady into otakuhood
I get the impression that you have a strong negative reaction to the nuns. You don't approve of their lifestyle, and you think they are a bad influence on Tsukimi. But, it was her choice to go live there, and it is her choice to keep living there. I don't think it's fair to suggest that they are forcing her in some way. And really, what they're doing is letting her be who she wants to be, or at least, who she thinks she is. And, she is happy there.

In fact, it is Kuranosuke who is trying to get her to change. He looks at her and sees something in her that she can't see herself. His plan to make her over failed, because he wasn't able to understand her properly. He didn't try to convince her, he just did what he always does, that is, barrel straight ahead and let the chips fall where they may. This strategy is just doomed to failure with someone like Tsukimi. But, I'm hoping that he will try to understand what is going on inside Tsukimi's ahead, and maybe he will be able to get through to her.

Does Tsukimi really want to become a beautiful princess? Or is it just one of those dreams from childhood, like wanting to be a rock star or a pro athlete? It strikes me more as the latter. At some point we give up on those dreams.
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Old 2010-11-07, 15:08   Link #211
Guardian Enzo
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I think it's a bit of a mistake to look for clear-cut moral distinctions in this anime. All of the characters and their dilemmas seem to be clouded and unclear - at least so far, which is one reason I hope the issue with the apartment being torn down doesn't turn the series into a melodrama. The Amars have the right to live how they want, and pursue what they're passionate about - but are they really happy living in self-imposed exile from society? Isn't their hatred of "The Stylish" and of men just another form of prejudice? Kuronosuke certainly lives by his own rules, too, which is to be applauded. But isn't he simply rebelling against his family and trying to annoy his father as much as possible - maybe in part as revenge for separating him from his mother (pure speculation on my part, I admit)? As for Tsukimi herself, isn't she in a sense taking the easy way out - surrounding herself with non-judgmental people and focusing her relationships on jellyfish instead of humans? This extends to relationships, too - Kuronosuke is really doing the Amars a favor by shaking up their complacent imprisonment and trying to get Tsukimi to be more confident in herself. But at the same time, what right does he have to barge in on their lives - uninvited - and how dare he equate Tsukimi's worth to "upgrading" her physical appearance?

My point is, like Sarai-ya Goyou - the show which preceded it on Noitamina by a season - Kuragehime is all about the subtleties and moral ambiguities of human behavior. It's not going to lend itself to easy analysis and moral judgment. My suspicion is that everyone on the show is going to be a little bit right and a little bit wrong most of the time, and usually not quite succeed in relating to each other they way they'd like to. I think it's a show that's going to reward patience and open-mindedness and occasionally frustrate by taking its time to get where it's headed.
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Old 2010-11-07, 15:13   Link #212
physics223
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Originally Posted by Sparrow1770 View Post
I get the impression that you have a strong negative reaction to the nuns. You don't approve of their lifestyle, and you think they are a bad influence on Tsukimi. But, it was her choice to go live there, and it is her choice to keep living there. I don't think it's fair to suggest that they are forcing her in some way. And really, what they're doing is letting her be who she wants to be, or at least, who she thinks she is. And, she is happy there.

In fact, it is Kuranosuke who is trying to get her to change. He looks at her and sees something in her that she can't see herself. His plan to make her over failed, because he wasn't able to understand her properly. He didn't try to convince her, he just did what he always does, that is, barrel straight ahead and let the chips fall where they may. This strategy is just doomed to failure with someone like Tsukimi. But, I'm hoping that he will try to understand what is going on inside Tsukimi's ahead, and maybe he will be able to get through to her.

Does Tsukimi really want to become a beautiful princess? Or is it just one of those dreams from childhood, like wanting to be a rock star or a pro athlete? It strikes me more as the latter. At some point we give up on those dreams.
I don't think Tsukimi's a wooden object that they're a bad influence on her. I don't approve of their lifestyle but that's something they're entitled to whether I like it or not. But they are forcing her in some way, whether one admits it or not.

There's a popular saying, 'in Rome, act as Romans do.' The saying made it not because it was merely trite, but because there was a lot of truth in it. Tsukimi found decent people in a decent place to live in. She tries to fit in and enjoyed it in time, because who wouldn't want to continue that pacific existence?

I don't think that was a mere childhood dream, especially with how central a figure her mother was to her. She kept thinking about her years after her death, and her mother clearly formed a lot of her present self, so becoming a beautiful princes isn't merely a childhood dream. I disagree with you in this count.

I don't think it was also such a failure with Tsukimi. Sometimes, the only way to get through a wall is to break it with a sledgehammer. Kuranosuke's doing pretty fine in that way of his, and I'm glad, because I don't want Tsukimi to end up like her neighbors: she's much more than them.

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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
My point is, like Sarai-ya Goyou - the show which preceded it on Noitamina by a season - Kuragehime is all about the subtleties and moral ambiguities of human behavior. It's not going to lend itself to easy analysis and moral judgment. My suspicion is that everyone on the show is going to be a little bit right and a little bit wrong most of the time, and usually not quite succeed in relating to each other they way they'd like to. I think it's a show that's going to reward patience and open-mindedness and occasionally frustrate by taking its time to get where it's headed.
Fuck, that show is awesome. One of 2010's best.
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Old 2010-11-07, 15:22   Link #213
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Interestingly enough, I don't see Tsukimi as someone who lacks confidence or self-esteem. She may see Kuranosuke and the world associated to him as a distant place, and deem it as something unfit for her; perhaps, not necessarily because she believes herself to be unpretty (or unable to become beautiful), but because she is happy as she is, with the people she lives. Of course, she is probably interested in Kuranosuke's world as part of her curiosity; but she doesn't want this world to take away the happiness she already found.
But if she's really happy why does she keep apologising to her mother about "not being a princess?"Why is she seeking forgiveness?
If the nuns are really happy why are there so many taboo subjects you're not supposed to talk about?

I don't think she hasn't found any happiness but she isn't perfectly happy with her life either.

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Oddly enough, I don't think Tsukimi really needs to change in order to become a princess; she is already a princess as she is.
Me too,and the day Tsukini realises this is the day I think she'll be truely happy with herself.
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Old 2010-11-07, 15:34   Link #214
physics223
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But if she's really happy why does she keep apologising to her mother about "not being a princess?"Why is she seeking forgiveness?
If the nuns are really happy why are there so many taboo subjects you're not supposed to talk about?

I don't think she hasn't found any happiness but she isn't perfectly happy with her life either.

Me too,and the day Tsukini realises this is the day I think she'll be truely happy with herself.

That's precisely it! She's already a princess but does not know it yet. She's already beautiful but doesn't want to acknowledge it. Why? It's due to her 'neighborhood.' I have little doubts the Amars would throw her out if she decided to live up to her potential and the desires of her mother for her. That's the good thing about Kuranosuke, and the bad thing about him, as well - he doesn't care. But his sledgehammer will be one of the things that will tear down Tsukimi's wall that prevents herself from seeing the beauty in her.

Kuranosuke's not even doing anything to Tsukimi other than a few snips. He's not shopping her face - she's already beautiful from the get-go. But there's something fundamentally different with forced contentment and a realistic striving for positive change. Forced contentment is her current condition; on the other hand, Kuranosuke offers the latter choice, albeit in his barreling way. It's like the ED - please realize that you're beautiful as you are, Tsukimi.
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Old 2010-11-07, 15:45   Link #215
Kazu-kun
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[B]Oddly enough, I don't think Tsukimi really needs to change in order to become a princess; she is already a princess as she is.
I tend to disagree. Putting aside looks, you can't be a princess if you don't feel like one.

The first sequence of the first episode shows she still longs to be the princess her mother wanted her to be (although, I don't know if Tsukimi really understands what her mother meant). Still, she longs for it so it's obvious she doesn't feel like one. Tsukimi's problem is primarily of self-esteem then.

There's another hint of her self-esteem issue when she puts on Kuranosuke's wig. She says people who can look good in it are practically gods. She doesn't think of herself as beautiful, but she does want to be. You can see it in her face when she looks at the mirror.

But with Kuranosuke in the picture things become even more interesting. There's a question here. Well, more than one actually. What does it mean to be beautiful? Is it only about looks? or it's just a matter of attitude? And more importantly, are these two things unrelated?

Kuranosuke says that every girl is born a princess. I feel this line is really important, because it's the very same line Tsukimi's mother says at the aquarium, and that can not be coincidence. Now, I doubt her mother was talking about looks really. This line is about potential, about the unbound possibilities of a child to become whatever they want to be.

Kuranosuke isn't talking about looks, he too is talking about potential. Like a raw diamond, as he put it, which has the potential to become something else. Kuranosuke, then, just wants to help these wacky girls, and specially Tsukumi, to realise that potential. Of course, since he is an aspiring beautician, he's using that tools, but just looking good is not the point.

Now you could object that Kuranosuke is assuming this girls are not totally happy with their life. But I think that's ok because the series does show that at least Tsukimi is not completely happy with hers. She does want to change, want to become a princess. Still, it's more complicated than that, because I don't think Tsukimi really understands what really means to be a princess. I think Tsukimi thinks too much about looks.

So what is this series about? I think is about Tsukimi understanding what it really means to be a princess. That it's not just about looks or attitude, but about shaping your life in the way you want it. Some times you're content with your life as it is, but some times you need it to change, because you know that what you really want is something else.
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Old 2010-11-07, 16:14   Link #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223 View Post
Why? It's due to her 'neighborhood.'
To me the "neighborhood" is more of an "effect" than a "cause" , she already didn't have good self esteem before she moved in there.

If anything I think it did her some good,she probably was quite lonely in highschool,can't remember but did she have any highschool friends or are the nuns the first friend she's ever had?

It was probably better for her to be around the nuns than around other people who would have just made fun of her.

The danger though would be that she'd close herself and like the nuns refuse contact with "beautiful people",that's where Kuranosuke comes in.
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Old 2010-11-07, 20:48   Link #217
karice67
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Just caught up to 3 today...and at the long discussions here!

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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
My point is, like Sarai-ya Goyou - the show which preceded it on Noitamina by a season - Kuragehime is all about the subtleties and moral ambiguities of human behavior. It's not going to lend itself to easy analysis and moral judgment. My suspicion is that everyone on the show is going to be a little bit right and a little bit wrong most of the time, and usually not quite succeed in relating to each other they way they'd like to. I think it's a show that's going to reward patience and open-mindedness and occasionally frustrate by taking its time to get where it's headed.
THIS. I was also a bit put out by Kuranosuke basically steamrolling Tsukimi, although it's possible that's the only way he might be able to show her another form of herself.

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Originally Posted by Falkor View Post
methinks her normal looks are better. :P
I actually like her normal face better, and my distaste for pink had me hating the dress. But, I believe that the author may be trying to say here that the important thing is to really become someone you like, to like yourself for who you are. As was mentioned before:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Putting aside looks, you can't be a princess if you don't feel like one.
...
So what is this series about? I think is about Tsukimi understanding what it really means to be a princess. That it's not just about looks or attitude, but about shaping your life in the way you want it. Some times you're content with your life as it is, but some times you need it to change, because you know that what you really want is something else.
If you're not happy with something about your life, then you should try to change it so that you can be happy about it. Whether it's TRULY accepting yourself for what you are (in Tsukimi's case, it would be going out in her normal clothes without feeling the social criticism etc) or actually change yourself into someone you are TRULY happy with. You shouldn't feel like you have to hide yourself away from the rest of society.
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Old 2010-11-08, 05:34   Link #218
Dop
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I'm glad they got 'the makeover' out of the way in the third episode. as I think that adds impact to the argument that while Tsukimi brushes up good, it's not a physical makeover she needs as much as a makeover to her self-esteem. I wonder how much what became of her mother has to do with that?

The uncle was hilarious, I almost fell off my chair when he did the 'kiraboshi'!

That said, the hopping Chinese vampire business also had me in stitches.
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Old 2010-11-09, 02:57   Link #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelis View Post
I don't think her fears were unfounded at all. I believe that the 'nuns' would have been betrayed by her appearance. They judge based on appearance just as much as Shu or any others who take one look and declare them weird, although in a different way.
but do we really know, though? the sisters were shown as people who would judge others based on their appearancse; we have already seen a situation where they rejected Kuranosuke when he came over for the nabe. Based on the evidence, Tsukimi's fears may have been correct to assume that the same would happen to her. However, and this is only speculation from my part, would the sisters follow the same pattern and reject Tsukimi knowing that behind her "new appearance" it's the same girl who shares the same hobbies and interests as them. We don't exactly know at this point of the story, and they may react as you said, but I don't want to think of them as bad people. They did accept Kuranosuke after he showed them his good intentions and the meat; how much would it take them to realize it's the same Tsukimi they have known all along?

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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
I think it's a bit of a mistake to look for clear-cut moral distinctions in this anime. All of the characters and their dilemmas seem to be clouded and unclear - at least so far, which is one reason I hope the issue with the apartment being torn down doesn't turn the series into a melodrama. The Amars have the right to live how they want, and pursue what they're passionate about - but are they really happy living in self-imposed exile from society? Isn't their hatred of "The Stylish" and of men just another form of prejudice? Kuronosuke certainly lives by his own rules, too, which is to be applauded. But isn't he simply rebelling against his family and trying to annoy his father as much as possible - maybe in part as revenge for separating him from his mother (pure speculation on my part, I admit)? As for Tsukimi herself, isn't she in a sense taking the easy way out - surrounding herself with non-judgmental people and focusing her relationships on jellyfish instead of humans? This extends to relationships, too - Kuronosuke is really doing the Amars a favor by shaking up their complacent imprisonment and trying to get Tsukimi to be more confident in herself. But at the same time, what right does he have to barge in on their lives - uninvited - and how dare he equate Tsukimi's worth to "upgrading" her physical appearance?

My point is, like Sarai-ya Goyou - the show which preceded it on Noitamina by a season - Kuragehime is all about the subtleties and moral ambiguities of human behavior. It's not going to lend itself to easy analysis and moral judgment. My suspicion is that everyone on the show is going to be a little bit right and a little bit wrong most of the time, and usually not quite succeed in relating to each other they way they'd like to. I think it's a show that's going to reward patience and open-mindedness and occasionally frustrate by taking its time to get where it's headed.
I think that's exactly what makes the show so interesting and rich.

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Originally Posted by physics223 View Post
I don't think Tsukimi's a wooden object that they're a bad influence on her. I don't approve of their lifestyle but that's something they're entitled to whether I like it or not. But they are forcing her in some way, whether one admits it or not.

There's a popular saying, 'in Rome, act as Romans do.' The saying made it not because it was merely trite, but because there was a lot of truth in it. Tsukimi found decent people in a decent place to live in. She tries to fit in and enjoyed it in time, because who wouldn't want to continue that pacific existence?
This is speculation from my part, but what if Tsukimi was already like that before she arrived at the Amars? is she trying to fit in or was she already one of them? I'm siding towards the latter, and that's because I'm understanding her relationship to the nuns as something more reciprocal: she relates to them as much as they relate to her. During the first episode, for example, Tsukimi went to Shibuya and came back immediately; she shared her tedious/frustrating social experience with the nuns and they completely understood the situation---perhaps, because it also happened to them and they reacted in the same way. it does give me the strong impression that she feels like part of the group.

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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
But if she's really happy why does she keep apologising to her mother about "not being a princess?"Why is she seeking forgiveness?
Let me try to sketch an answer, which may sound more like an interpretation. I think she feels the way she feels about her mother in part because she could not fulfill her expectations. By that I mean, she has not become the "princess" her mother "had expected" her to be. she feels strongly about this issue because her mother is no longer there, and she wants to cherish her fond memories of her by fulfilling her wishes. I get the feeling she herself doesn't really know what her mother really meant, and is still trying to find the answer. I think the issue in her mind is whether she can understand her mother words, and not necessarily one about becoming a princess. so the question is, does this create unhappiness in her, or is she unhappy because of this? Part of me thinks that she has already set in stone the idea that she isn't a princess (and can't therefore fulfill her mother's wishes), because she considers herself an otaku. She does enjoy her life and is happy the way she is; but on the other hand, she can't help but be curious about her mother words.

Quote:
If the nuns are really happy why are there so many taboo subjects you're not supposed to talk about?
I think the idea of happiness is how you feel about yourself; to me, the sisters are happy just because of that: they can enjoy their hobbies/interests to their hearts' content. I feel the "taboo subjects" are something they feel very uncomfortable about because it questions their style of life; it may not be necessarily something they feel unhappy about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I tend to disagree. Putting aside looks, you can't be a princess if you don't feel like one.

The first sequence of the first episode shows she still longs to be the princess her mother wanted her to be (although, I don't know if Tsukimi really understands what her mother meant). Still, she longs for it so it's obvious she doesn't feel like one. Tsukimi's problem is primarily of self-esteem then.

There's another hint of her self-esteem issue when she puts on Kuranosuke's wig. She says people who can look good in it are practically gods. She doesn't think of herself as beautiful, but she does want to be. You can see it in her face when she looks at the mirror.
it just came to me the idea that she may not feel like a princess because she sees herself more like an otaku (her behavior and antics do point in that direction); and in her mind, since she is an otaku, she can't be a princess---and the two can't go together. That probably explains why I couldn't quite see the lack of self-esteem in her character, or why she may find the beautiful ladies to be such a distant dream and still be curious about it. I did take a look at those scenes, especially the mirror, and it made wonder, does she not find herself beautiful, or can she only see herself as an otaku? of course, she does not explicitly state the latter, and I may be taking some liberties interpreting the scenes, but I can't help but read them this way. Also, during the third episode, she never does take a moment to take a look at herself after the makeover. was she too worried about how her friends will take her new appearance? did it not cross her mind the idea that she was beautiful? or did she already set in stone the notion that because she was an otaku, she couldn't therefore be beautiful? I don't cross out the idea that lack of self-steem may have something to do with it, but I want to think also that's it's perhaps not the most important aspect.

====

I think everyone has interesting ideas about what the meaning of a princess in this work. I think I will wait for a few more episodes before I elaborate on that.
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Old 2010-11-09, 19:15   Link #220
PaganOne
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I have an idea, that with the redevelopment project stated by his brother, there will be a forced change in their lives. Now that Tsukimi has the attention from his brother. and family, I think things are well set for a good change.
I personally feel sad when she actually tries to conform to the nuns rather then high end persons of the country. I have seen mentality like those NEETS, and it is really saddening. Episode 4 is going to be a really good episode.. I cant wait!

Anyone else think that Kuronosuke is hot?

I think He looks better in women's clothes than mens clothes honestly.
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