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View Poll Results: Angel Beats! - Episode 7 Rating
Perfect 10 64 39.26%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 48 29.45%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 24 14.72%
7 out of 10 : Good 17 10.43%
6 out of 10 : Average 7 4.29%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 1.23%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.61%
Voters: 163. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2010-05-17, 09:51   Link #201
Sinestra
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Otonashi's face when Naoi was trying to give her encouragement had me laughing so hard i had to pause the episode. Sometimes words dont need to be said a look is enough and god was it funny.

Kanade found a new way to use dual handsonics. She could be one hell of a sushi chef.

Will reserve judgement on Evil Tenshi for now.

I felt terrible for Otonashi. To live majority of your life not caring about anything and not having any direction except for your sister who was then taken from you. But then to finally find it, work towards it get a taste of it and its all ripped away from you because of an accident. I dont think i could handle having all those memories flood back to me. The pain would be unbearable.

good episode 9/10
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Old 2010-05-17, 12:25   Link #202
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Guys, I'm pretty sure those that are complaining about why it's so similar to other keys works are just complaining about Otonashi's past. Not anything else.
Oh, I know that, since I am complaining, but the overall show really hasn't recycled that much. In fact, I'm surprised they took so long to recycle.

I give the show tons of shit, but there's gotta be some balance and less overreacting. I give them a break this time.
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Old 2010-05-17, 14:36   Link #203
DragoonKain3
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Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
I don't think that's how "show not tell" works:
Show, don't tell is an admonition to fiction writers to write in a manner that allows the reader to experience the story through a character's action, words, thoughts, senses, and feelings rather than through the narrator's exposition, summarization, and description.
Bolded for emphasis. Naoi joining the SSS was not told, it was shown. You had to piece together clues from the character's interactions to know how and why he decided to join the SSS.
'How' Naoi joined was told, alright. Brute force, even. One episode he was the enemy. Immediately the next, he's there in the SSS club room, hanging out with its members. There are no other clues pertaining to the actual event of how Naoi's joining came to be. Heck, his joining was NOT even talked about by the members.

As for 'why' he joined, the only clue that connects Naoi's admiration with his joining of the SSS was...

"You were clinging onto Otonashi and crying like a baby." (note this wasn't shown at all last episode, as it was Otonashi who was doing the clinging and crying)

If that wasn't exposition/summarization/description, I don't know what is. Just because it was a character doing so, rather than a narrator, does not make it any less 'telling'. That's actually a cheap trick to try and disguise 'telling' as 'showing', by making one of the characters do the actual narration itelf. (One I was guilty of back during my writing classes, and the teacher called me up on it. )

Seriously, if they even showed that scene rather than cutting the previous episode just before that part, I wouldn't have this problem, as Naoi's reciprocation of Otonashi's crying/clinging would've been a big enough clue to foreshadow his joining. But for God knows what reason, they decided not to show it, instead panning up to the sky before ending the episode.


Really, you're focusing on the wrong parts of the definition from wikipedia. The key words here are "allows the reader to experience the story"; the actual method done to do so (or fail to do so) has little relevance, though to be fair they're by far the most common ways to 'show/tell'.

And no, we certainly did NOT experience Naoi's joining scene. Not by a long shot.


Quote:
It's a sudden change of heart. You don't absolutely need clues beforehand (in fact, the less clues beforehand, the more impact it will have), you only need their reasons afterward.
Hogwash. Even Darth Vader's betrayal of Palpatine had numerous clues leading up to it, and its hard to get a bigger change of heart than that, considering this 'mainstreamed' that plot twist.


Quote:
Why not? Were we shown his exact thoughts and attitude? Did he firmly state, "I will never ally with you," or something?
Did you even read the next paragraph? Because I answered "why not" with the next sentence.

"Seriously now, Otonashi accepting Naoi can be the cause of a bajillion different things."

To expand on this, since Otonashi accepting Naoi can be the cause of many different things, to assume that "Otonashi's acceptance suggests that Naoi is going to become his bitch" would be foolhardy indeed, when its just one of many possibilities at that point in time (during Otonashi's acceptance).

Logically speaking...

B was caused by A, but B is just one of many results of A. (To put it succinctly, A can cause B, C, D, etc. to happen as well)
Now A.
From this, the only thing we can logically conclude is that B might happen. That said, assuming "A suggests B is going to happen" is illogical, when A could as easily suggest C, D, etc.

Replace A with 'Otonashi's acceptance' and B with 'Naoi's joining', C/D/etc. with the examples I listed in the next paragraph. Hopefully this makes more sense.

In other words, Otonashi's acceptance could NOT have suggested that the next thing going to happen would be Naoi's joining, because it could have as easily suggested that Naoi might quit student council, might just call a ceasefire, or even outright disappear, among MANY other things.


Quote:
Why not? Has Naoi even been accepted before? Has he been a bitch to people who honestly accepted them for who he is? Has there been anything shown that states otherwise? I see no contradictions here. Don't judge a book by its cover, as they say.
Again, I did not argue in any way that there's anything contradicting Naoi's joining. What I'm arguing is that Naoi's joining does not necessarily follow Otonashi's acceptance, when a whole slew of other things can follow the latter.

In other words, Naoi's admiration of Otonashi (and his joining by extension) was NOT suggested to be the most probable path of the story, out of all the other many (if not infinite) paths Otonashi's acceptance can cause. That is why I said Naoi's admiration came out of left field.

Please, don't misconstrue my arguement. I've had enough strawman to last me a lifetime with my many shipping debates over the last decade.


Quote:
See first paragraph. You seem to be confused on this whole "show not tell" thing.
I've finally met someone who accepts me for who I am.
I've already decided that I'm God, and these guys aren't so bad after all (I'll just make use of Hypnotism if they ever try to come against me). Might as well stick to them in the meantime while I try to get close to Otonashi-kun.
Yuri most likely had a hand too in all these, but you get the gist of it. Everything was implied through all that comedy at the beginning.
The scene in question in episode 7 only 'shows' that Naoi thinks he still is God, that he isn't above using his powers in retaliation, and that he has a much better relationship with Otonashi than the rest of the SSS.

From this we can deduce (not experience) that his reason for joining the SSS is because of his admiration of Otonashi (in conjunction with Hinata's quote that connects the two), and that since he isn't at war the SSS, we can deduce (not experience) that he reconciled with them. In other words, we were 'told' through implications that he joined the SSS and the reason why, rather than them actually 'showing' the scene in question.


Quote:
Perspective. Getting corpse camped is psychologically damaging, yet that doesn't automatically make the camper an unforgivable enemy. On the other hand, they have been fighting Kanade from the very start, even before the SSS was formed (which should be months or years now). She had always opposed them when they tried to break school rules, and she had never given any definite answers to any of their questions regarding God / the world / etc. She's not unforgivable by any stretch, but she's definitely more of an enemy to the SSS than Naoi is/was
But being a 'camper' isn't my arguement why Naoi is more of an 'enemy' than Tenshi (:sigh: strawman again). My point was that at the end of episode 6, Naoi was literally at war with the SSS. Tenshi was at best 'allied' with the SSS, at worst in a cease fire with them... and this was due to Yuripe asking for Tenshi's help.

As such, it boggles the mind why they did not show Naoi's joining, while they did of Tenshi who was at better 'diplomatic relations' with them at the end of eps 6.
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Old 2010-05-17, 15:05   Link #204
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The director said himself that the series would be rushed, do you really want a slower pace to destroy any glimmer of plot resolution left within the series?
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Old 2010-05-17, 16:14   Link #205
Haak
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Originally Posted by Crontica View Post
The director said himself that the series would be rushed, do you really want a slower pace to destroy any glimmer of plot resolution left within the series?
A lot of people have also being saying to extend the series to two-cour so the whole storyline fits, you know.

Anyway, just because the alternative is worse doesn't the mean the current isn't bad, nor is it much consolation. The lesser of two evils is still evil.
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Old 2010-05-17, 16:53   Link #206
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I'd be fine if they made it a comedy only series, cause it's the funniest show that I am watching.
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Old 2010-05-17, 16:56   Link #207
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My point was that at the end of episode 6, Naoi was literally at war with the SSS. Tenshi was at best 'allied' with the SSS, at worst in a cease fire with them... and this was due to Yuripe asking for Tenshi's help.

As such, it boggles the mind why they did not show Naoi's joining, while they did of Tenshi who was at better 'diplomatic relations' with them at the end of eps 6.
It's possible that most of the SSS members were not aware of this. It was only shown that Yuri called Otonashi for Tenshi's help. Or even if they knew, they were probably like, "Oh really ? Tenshi helped ? Whatever, I was already down so I don't really care."
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Old 2010-05-17, 18:01   Link #208
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Otonashi really surprised me with his story at first. I always thought of him as an intelligent character, and he is, but it was pretty obvious that he lived a dissatisfied existence before starting to get serious about his studies in his previous life. So, I guess his goal was to become a doctor? That's a pretty admirable goal, and he would have been great if not for the incident.

Although transitions could be better, this is a good show.
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Old 2010-05-17, 23:25   Link #209
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Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
Please, don't misconstrue my arguement. I've had enough strawman to last me a lifetime with my many shipping debates over the last decade.

Alright, I will try my best to avoid that then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
'How' Naoi joined was told, alright. Brute force, even. One episode he was the enemy. Immediately the next, he's there in the SSS club room, hanging out with its members. There are no other clues pertaining to the actual event of how Naoi's joining came to be. Heck, his joining was NOT even talked about by the members.

As for 'why' he joined, the only clue that connects Naoi's admiration with his joining of the SSS was...

"You were clinging onto Otonashi and crying like a baby." (note this wasn't shown at all last episode, as it was Otonashi who was doing the clinging and crying)
Oh, I don't know about that:


Also, check these out:




Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
B was caused by A, but B is just one of many results of A. (To put it succinctly, A can cause B, C, D, etc. to happen as well)
Now A.
From this, the only thing we can logically conclude is that B might happen. That said, assuming "A suggests B is going to happen" is illogical, when A could as easily suggest C, D, etc.

Replace A with 'Otonashi's acceptance' and B with 'Naoi's joining', C/D/etc. with the examples I listed in the next paragraph. Hopefully this makes more sense.

Again, I did not argue in any way that there's anything contradicting Naoi's joining. What I'm arguing is that Naoi's joining does not necessarily follow Otonashi's acceptance, when a whole slew of other things can follow the latter.

In other words, Naoi's admiration of Otonashi (and his joining by extension) was NOT suggested to be the most probable path of the story, out of all the other many (if not infinite) paths Otonashi's acceptance can cause. That is why I said Naoi's admiration came out of left field.
Sorry, but that's not how probability works. If A can lead to any one of the events B, C, D, E, F, and the probability of (B|A), (C|A), (D|A), (E|A), (F|A) are equal, then the probability of independent events B, C, D, E, F are also equal (note that A is not independent of either B, C, D, E or F). Using the Law of Total Probability:
Code:
given:
Pr(B) = Pr(B|A)Pr(A) ; Pr(C) = Pr(C|A)Pr(A) ; Pr(D) = Pr(D|A)Pr(A) ; Pr(E) = Pr(E|A)Pr(A) ; Pr(F) = Pr(F|A)Pr(A) Pr(B|A) = Pr(C|A) = Pr(D|A) = Pr(E|A) = Pr(F|A) = k
Through substitution: Pr(B) = kPr(A) Pr(C) = kPr(A) Pr(D) = kPr(A) Pr(E) = kPr(A) Pr(F) = kPr(A) Therefore, Pr(B) = Pr(C) = Pr(D) = Pr(E) = Pr(F).
To simplify using the discrete uniform distribution (since the probability of A is 1 in our case),the set {B, C, D, E, F} consists of equally probable events. It is implied or suggested that B, C, D, E, F will happen with equal probability.

I did not give priority over the event that got chosen by the show. All I'm saying is that all the other possible events you have given have (assuming) an equal chance of being selected, so the event chosen by the show itself should not be belittled in any way. Thus, why not [join the SSS]? Just because you didn't like the way the event was handled doesn't mean that it is any less valid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
From this we can deduce (not experience) that his reason for joining the SSS is because of his admiration of Otonashi (in conjunction with Hinata's quote that connects the two), and that since he isn't at war the SSS, we can deduce (not experience) that he reconciled with them. In other words, we were 'told' through implications that he joined the SSS and the reason why, rather than them actually 'showing' the scene in question.

...

If that wasn't exposition/summarization/description, I don't know what is. Just because it was a character doing so, rather than a narrator, does not make it any less 'telling'. That's actually a cheap trick to try and disguise 'telling' as 'showing', by making one of the characters do the actual narration itelf. (One I was guilty of back during my writing classes, and the teacher called me up on it. )
What's wrong with that? And, about that:
Instead of stating a situation flat out, you want to let the reader discover what you're trying to say by watching a character in action and by listening to his dialogue. Showing brings your characters to life. It is the difference between actors acting out an event, and the lone playwright standing on a bare stage recounting the event to the audience.

Scenes that are important to the story should be dramatized with showing, but sometimes what happens between scenes can be told so the story can make progress. According to Orson Scott Card and others, "showing" is so terribly time consuming that it is to be used only for dramatic scenes. The objective is to find the right balance of telling versus showing, action versus summarization. Factors like rhythm, pace, and tone come into play.
However, since I don't consider myself an expert or even a sound authority on how this should be interpreted, let's have it your way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
But being a 'camper' isn't my arguement why Naoi is more of an 'enemy' than Tenshi (:sigh: strawman again). My point was that at the end of episode 6, Naoi was literally at war with the SSS. Tenshi was at best 'allied' with the SSS, at worst in a cease fire with them... and this was due to Yuripe asking for Tenshi's help.
And Chaa was at war with the SSS too (technically, Yuri and Hinata). See, you're greatly misunderstanding the scale of battles in the afterlife. Holding a skirmish for 2-3 days and getting slaughtered for hours means nothing in comparison to being at the losing side of a war that has raged on for probably months and years. Perspective.


Ceasefire, yes, but Kanade was never allied with the SSS. She's comparable to the police in a gang war. When the mob isn't doing any damage to public property, stirring up the civilians, or simply breaking school rules, there's no need to oppress them. That is the role of the SCP, and most likely, this is one of the reasons why Naoi's assimilation wasn't met with much resistance by the newer members (who hadn't experienced the early days of Yuri's rebellion).

And once again, have you read the prequel novel?
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Old 2010-05-17, 23:40   Link #210
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To say the truth, the presence of the evil twin Tenshi has kinda put me off the show. I dont really know why, maybe its ruined the atmosphere for me. But I get the next episode will tell me if I've lost hope or not in this series. Because it better not be something lame and have good reason.
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Old 2010-05-18, 02:42   Link #211
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Quote:
See, you're greatly misunderstanding the scale of battles in the afterlife. Holding a skirmish for 2-3 days and getting slaughtered for hours means nothing in comparison to being at the losing side of a war that has raged on for probably months and years. Perspective.
I don't think that's the point of contention. The thing is, some people (me included), think that due to Tenshi helping out in ep6, some of the SSS members should see her in a different light after this event. But of course, there're still lots of variables in play so that things do not always go as expected.
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Old 2010-05-18, 11:33   Link #212
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Originally Posted by Velsy View Post
To say the truth, the presence of the evil twin Tenshi has kinda put me off the show. I dont really know why, maybe its ruined the atmosphere for me. But I get the next episode will tell me if I've lost hope or not in this series. Because it better not be something lame and have good reason.
They already gave a perfectly logical reason back in episode 3. Remember, she had an as-of-then unused clone Guard Skill.
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Old 2010-05-18, 11:36   Link #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Block
Oh, I don't know about that:
Crying, yes it was shown. But Clinging AND Crying? Not really, as ~21:59 has shown. The former, like Otonashi's acceptance, can mean a slew of many other things as its too vague an action to try and find any meaning to it. Adding Clinging to it, and it becomes MUCH more personal, and it shifts the implication from a 'bajillion different things' to something along the lines of 'acceptance', even 'reciprocation'. That can be taken as foreshadowing to his joining, something which I would've been satisfied with.

(BTW, that's another thing that bugged me. Why the heck did they have to stop halfway and only show his crying? Is it because they wanted to put a cliffhanger at the end of episode 6 in where the writers are trying to make the audience guess whether Naoi disappeared or not, or whatever else? I dunno, but they certainly had quite a number of chances to do things properly, but squandered all of them for some reason or another.)

And that's not going to the part that Naoi was NOT crying like a baby, like Hinata claimed. Maybe even Naoi wailing alone would've satisfied me, as that would've shown 'utter devastation' of his inner self by Otonashi's words, but they had to stop halfway, yet again.

Quote:
Also, check these out:
As for that, that merely just 'showed' us that Naoi has good relations with Otonashi, and it also 'showed' us he still has no respect for the rest of the SSS gang, even Yurippe.

The scene itself is not even directly connected to Naoi's joining at all; you have to connect 'Naoi/Otonashi having good relations with each other in comparison with the rest of the cast' with Hinata's observation that Naoi's 'clinging to Otonashi and crying like a baby' to deduce this is the reason he joined. Still does not change we did not experience the joining scene, however.


To put it in simpler terms (and hopefully put this part of arguement to rest on whether Naoi's joining was shown or told), in the TV/Movie mediums, 'showing' a scene is literally just that; if the scene is acted out 'onscreen', then it is 'shown' because it allows the viewer to 'experience' said scene. As such, anything that's done 'offscreen', implied, narrated, discussed, or otherwise, is 'telling' because the audience did not experience it.

And as we all know, they did not animate Naoi's joining. Sure, they have given good reasons as to why he joined after the fact, but that's merely just telling us the reasons why he did so. We did not experience said scene at all.


Quote:
All I'm saying is that all the other possible events you have given have (assuming) an equal chance of being selected, so the event chosen by the show itself should not be belittled in any way. Thus, why not [join the SSS]? Just because you didn't like the way the event was handled doesn't mean that it is any less valid.
But I'm not belittling it. I said it before, I think twice or thrice already in this thread, I do NOT have any beef with what has actually transpired in the story (ie. Naoi joining the SSS).

What I have major beef with is how they did it (ie. not 'showing' us Naoi joining the SSS, when they had time to with Tenshi). See, I'm no hard ass when it comes to writing, but Naoi's joining was not even properly foreshadowed/suggested, because the only thing that even remotely suggested Naoi's joining would be Otonashi's acceptance of him. And as you have also stated, Otonashi's acceptance can be the cause of many different things, so as such, you can't take it as proper foreshadowing of the events in eps 7.

Remember, our debate started partly because of my quote that stated "This admiration of Otonashi ALSO came out of left field". The only reason why I brought up 'Otonashi accepting him does not suggest Naoi's admiration/joining' is merely me trying to preemptively quash the only thing that can be even remotely considered as foreshadowing, before anyone can put it forward as 'proof'.


Quote:
What's wrong with that?
There's nothing wrong with making the audience deduce certain facts themselves per se. My point though was that since you had to deduce what happened in the past from episode 7's numerous clues, then you did not experience what happened, as the 'clues' themselves are telling (not showing) you what transpired in that past event.

Normally, this wouldn't be a problem, because for example even the mystery genre has them 'telling' certain non-critical scenes that happened in the past through numerous clues.

But what separates non-critical scenes with critical ones? There's no general consensus among the writers, but if you ask 10 random writers whether a complete 180 would be critical or not, concerning a character who has a big impact in the plot , I'm damn sure all 10 would say its a critical moment.


Quote:
And, about that
Note that a certain scene can be showing something and telling another all at the same time, which what I was trying to imply in my previous post where I described what certain scenes were showing and what were they telling. (It was the paragraph before the one you quoted.)

In Hinata's case, him saying "You still on about that? You were clinging onto Otonashi and crying like a baby" was 'showing' that Hinata can now hold a conversation with Naoi, that he treats Naoi as more or less an equal, and that he has no qualms about teasing Naoi. At the same time, however, he without a doubt 'told' what happened concerning Naoi's joining.


Quote:
last bit
Okay, now I see that you also acknowledge that Naoi was at war and Tenshi was at the very least at ceasefire.

Now tell me, using this...

War --> Ceasefire --> Alliance --> Joining

...who has a bigger jump? Naoi starting at war, or Tenshi at ceasefire?

Of course Naoi. It doesn't matter if Tenshi took a bajillion years to go from War --> Ceasefire... what matters is that exactly at the end of episode 6, Tenshi was already at the very least at Ceasefire. Which of course means that she was already one step closer to 'Joining' than Naoi was at that point in time.

So again, why did they 'show' the one that took the smaller leap but only 'told' the larger one? One reason I can think of is that they just wanted more 'moe moe moments' from Tenshi. Which as a shipper, I couldn't be happier about if it was true. But as a critic, I have to call on them disrupting the flow of the story.


As for Ceasefire vs Alliance part, note that Tenshi was already helping the SSS fight Naoi. In other words, the writers have shown us through certain scenes that...

1) Yuri is willing to let go of past grudges and ask help from a very long-time enemy
2) Tenshi is not doing this because its her duty as student council president, as she is NOT one at that time
3) Tenshi bears no ill will towards SSS

...and from what what was shown there, we can deduce the fact that Tenshi WANTED to help the SSS from the goodness of her own heart.

As such, since Tenshi wasn't fighting Naoi out of obligation, and Yuri was the one who asked (begged? Yuri sounded AWFULLY desperate for Tenshi's help over the walkie talkie) Tenshi for her help, then one can only conclude that the two made an alliance to fight against a common enemy. Namely, Naoi.

Which of course would put Tenshi TWO steps closer to joining than Naoi. So I ask again, why did they not have the time to 'show' Tenshi's joining but not Naoi's, when there have been a crapload of foreshadowing for the former but none for the latter?
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Old 2010-05-18, 11:46   Link #214
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Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
It doesn't matter if Tenshi took a bajillion years to go from War --> Ceasefire... what matters is that exactly at the end of episode 6, Tenshi was already at the very least at Ceasefire.
No, it really does. For as long as the SSS can remember, they've been battling Tenshi. Naoi pulls some stupid crap and ends up more hated by the viewers, but the difference between two or three days and as long as we've been doing this is huge.

It seems to me that you're confusing your feelings as an audience member with the SSS's feelings. We like Tenshi/Kanade, as she's been portrayed as sympathetic. But the SSS, particularly those who've been on the front lines, have long-since hated and feared her and her power.

There's also the question of character importance. Who was a more important recruit, Tenshi or Naoi? The more important one is going to have more of a scene involved, and feel significant.

While the other's joining, as it was mentioned above, was played for laughs.
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Old 2010-05-18, 11:50   Link #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
As for Ceasefire vs Alliance part, note that Tenshi was already helping the SSS fight Naoi.
You are assuming that it is "obvious" that Kanade helped the SSS.
However, while it may be true for us, it is another way around.

"Tenshi" was considered as an automaton entity in the eyes of the SSS members. As such "anyone who is disturbing the order shall be dealt".
Now, there is some way to deal with it... see where I'm trying to say?

As it is perhaps easy to notice that Kanade helped them, because of Yuzuru, it isn't easy for the SSS.
That is befause, in such situation, a change of priority can be issued. The fact SSS are being beaten up, then saved isn't the point. The fact Ayato was just beating the shit out of people was the problem.
For the SSS, who aren't aware of Kanade's "humanity", there is no evidence that Kanade "helped" them. To the contrary: there is nothing to prevent them to think that Yuzuru could convince her, just because of Ayato's rash methods.

When you have a 3 way battle royal, it is always better to take out the thoughest opponent first. And this way of thinking is not far fetched at all.
At THAT given time, Ayato wasn't suppressing a rebellion or an act of disorder. He was basically one sidedly taking them out. Therefore, there is no evidence for the SSS to believe that Kanade was helping "them".
Otherwise, they wouldn't consider her as an enemy back in this episode, which was proved otherwise.


Furthermore, again, you are mistaking your point of view with the characaters'. The conflict with "Tenshi" lasted much longer than with Ayato. And again, evidences of Ayato's "humanity" were much easier to spot for them, than Kanade's.

Again, this is another reason why I and other members stated previously that "Kanade being more easier to see them join" is not really applicable at this point of the plot. Although there is room for debate regarding how Ayato's recruitment was handled, the fact they favored Kanade's development for this event is a better choice so to speak.
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Old 2010-05-18, 13:25   Link #216
maplehurry
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No, it really does. For as long as the SSS can remember, they've been battling Tenshi. Naoi pulls some stupid crap and ends up more hated by the viewers, but the difference between two or three days and as long as we've been doing this is huge.
I think dragoonkain3's assumption is that when Tenshi's help was asked, then whatever grudge that existed is pretty much already over. It's like an ex-girlfriend you had been dating for 4 years vs new girlfriend for 4 days. It doesn't matter how long you had been loving your ex, it's already over. All you care about now, is your new girlfriend. The problem with this premise, as I already stated, is simply Yuri personally asking for Tenshi's help, not the entirety of the SSS squad.

Quote:
When you have a 3 way battle royal, it is always better to take out the thoughest opponent first. And this way of thinking is not far fetched at all.
It's not far fetched for the more cool-headed SSS people like Yuri, but it's quite far fetched for some of the more anti-tenshi members.

Quote:
At THAT given time, Ayato wasn't suppressing a rebellion or an act of disorder. He was basically one sidedly taking them out. Therefore, there is no evidence for the SSS to believe that Kanade was helping "them".
Objectively speaking, this is true for the rational members. But the more biased SSS members should be able to see Tenshi in a different light after this event... or maybe not because they are still in denial mode, one based on psychology and instinct, not reason.
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Old 2010-05-19, 00:19   Link #217
rocket
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I've been lurking and following these threads from the first ep and now you guys have gone and actually made me post! GRRRRRRRR!!!

Nobody seems to realize the single most important reason why the show's writers allotted so much time to us experiencing Tenshi/Kanade's incorporation into the group and skipped over pretty boy president.

In short: Tenshi/Kanade is super moé!

Seriously. Wake up. This is a cute girl show. The plot is designed to make you feel all gushy over the tragic plights of cute girls. Of course we're gonna spend time on the tragical social rejection of the cutest, saddest girl in the show!

Personally, I wouldn't have it any other way!

Honestly, there's more than enough shown for plenty of hero/prez dojin. If I wanted any more innuendo I'd go rewatch Baka to Test... again.
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Old 2010-05-19, 04:07   Link #218
Suimancer
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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Hmmm...good to see such a lively thread I for one found it quite interesting the differences between Otonashi's efforts in getting closer to Tachibana compared to the other characters. Especially in this episode where he offered to be called by his first name to tenshi and she in return to Otonashi. Considering that this episode revealed his past, perhaps Otonashi was projecting his love for his sister to the imouto-esque tenshi. Then again, maybe I'm reading too much into it since how tenshi reminds me Suou, especially that they share the same V.A.

Yurippe's indifference when the SSS brigade were helping Tachibana was kind of ominous. Maybe the new tenshi was a fake that Yurippe made (out of mud?) seeing that their tangible source of conflict, Tachibana stopped being a threat, moreover being the same just as them.
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Old 2010-05-19, 05:02   Link #219
Crontica
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Join Date: May 2007
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Except that the show is borderline shounen, and the fan pandering material displayed is enough to make 1000 doujins.

It seems the main problem is everyone is having a hard time accepting the intended POV of the show, the balant supernatural aspect doesn't seem to be kicking in with most of the viewers here.
The characters are Undead immortals not your average run of the mill kids with problems.
Episode 1 of Angel beats was not THE episode 1. When Otonashi first appeared he was dragged into a war that was already in it's 100 year stage.

Yuri already mentioned they have fought and defeated numerous "Tenshi" along with losing countless comrades in the process. Obviously a conflict of moral direction and the idiots who thought that they should follow the "righteous path" The Tenshi were slowly wiped out because they could no longer sustain their existence on the plane ironically intended to calm the soul. While the rebellion continued onward

The Audience POV: This base assumes that they can rationalize what is happening because it looks like a normal environment. Like Klashkari said that overly dramatic rainy day where everyone got brutally slaughtered might have been an AVERAGE DAILY ACCORDANCE TO THEM IN THE TENSHI WAR.
To them Naoi who is easily swayable is war more safer Than the cold Kanade who've they been fighting for god knows how long and "somehow" has the ability permanently remove them.

The Characters POV: What may be 2 minutes to you is actually 5 months to them.

In the end what im trying to say is that this discussion is fruitless, what may be shocking behavior to you is nothing to someone who can survive multiple gunshot wounds to the head.
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Last edited by Crontica; 2010-05-19 at 05:18.
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Old 2010-05-19, 08:57   Link #220
icyhandofcrap
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crontica View Post
Yuri already mentioned they have fought and defeated numerous "Tenshi" along with losing countless comrades in the process. Obviously a conflict of moral direction and the idiots who thought that they should follow the "righteous path" The Tenshi were slowly wiped out because they could no longer sustain their existence on the plane ironically intended to calm the soul. While the rebellion continued onward
Are you sure about this? I don't see anything in the subs or light novels to lead me to believe this. My impression was that they have been fighting with Kanade for a very long time. From the light novels, the SSS was formed when the Student Council President was Kanade.

Otherwise I agree with you on the other parts.
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