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Old 2010-11-24, 16:17   Link #1341
Equidistant
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Well, first of all, welcome to last week. But secondly, you are just factually wrong about this; there's no way around it. Rewatch the episode and pay more attention. She placed his hand on her breast and enticed him. He was surprised and confused by Nao's advances. The look on his face afterwards was definitely not that of someone who "enjoyed it". If it was so consensual, what was the whole point of the plot of the episode? Why was Nao so apprehensive? Why did she think she was hated? Your interpretation of the plot simply makes no sense.

That isn't to say that there isn't some degree of range into how you can interpret what happened... but that's outside the range.
That's one of the problems with this whole storyline though, although it was clearly meant to be rape(I mean even Nao knew she raped him), Haruka's reaction to it all these years later was that he enjoyed it, and also seemed to feel he was in the wrong for making Nao start to avoid him. It sometimes seems to me like everyone else in the cast is playing in a drama and Haruka is leading in a laid back RomCom.
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Old 2010-11-24, 16:56   Link #1342
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Originally Posted by CantQuiteGuess View Post
That's one of the problems with this whole storyline though, although it was clearly meant to be rape(I mean even Nao knew she raped him), Haruka's reaction to it all these years later was that he enjoyed it, and also seemed to feel he was in the wrong for making Nao start to avoid him.
Well, yes, that is what makes it controversial for sure. Haruka's acceptance of Nao's actions and the fact that he decided that he loves her (in spite of or because of that?) is a very strange and awkward circumstance. He doesn't hate her for what she did (contrary to her expectations), but I don't think that makes the scene exactly consensual either. It's sort of like... Nao did something wrong, but she got lucky because the guy she did it to doesn't hold it against her at all. But the issue is whether we in the audience are supposed to hold it against her or not... and that's where I think the range of opinions comes in. But I don't think you can look at the actual scene as presented and interpret that as consensual, even though Haruka wants to make it seem that way (in part) so that Sora doesn't hate Nao, and Nao doesn't hate herself. His argument about it is basically "I love you so it's okay".
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Old 2010-11-24, 17:09   Link #1343
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Well, yes, that is what makes it controversial for sure. Haruka's acceptance of Nao's actions and the fact that he decided that he loves her (in spite of or because of that?) is a very strange and awkward circumstance. He doesn't hate her for what she did (contrary to her expectations), but I don't think that makes the scene exactly consensual either. It's sort of like... Nao did something wrong, but she got lucky because the guy she did it to doesn't hold it against her at all. But the issue is whether we in the audience are supposed to hold it against her or not... and that's where I think the range of opinions comes in. But I don't think you can look at the actual scene as presented and interpret that as consensual, even though Haruka wants to make it seem that way (in part) so that Sora doesn't hate Nao.
Not knowing how it played out in the game, all I can say is I feel they missed a great opportunity to develop Haruka's character a little. So far nothing seems to affect Haruka at all. His parents were killed in an accident and he suddenly moved back to this town with a slightly unstable, shut-in sister, he's now the one responsible for looking after both of them, and yet they've never seemed to add any of this into Haruka's character. He's always just going 100% to help some girl because he's fallen in love, these girls end up pouring their hearts out to him, and he just accepts what they say, rather than returning the gesture and revealing a little about himself. I can totally understand why Haruka could still like Nao, but it just hasn't come across that there even needs to be a reason. If Haruka had thought about what Nao did, accepted that it was wrong and left him confused, yet refused to let that one incident ruin his entire relationship with her, given that he knows she's ultimately a good person who made a mistake, and decided to pursue a relationship with her because be genuinely likes her and wants her to be happy, then it'd be fine. Maybe that's what were supposed to assume, but so far I haven't seen that come across in the show.
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Old 2010-11-24, 17:15   Link #1344
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Well in the game, Haru certainly does feel insecurities about his situation (although only really in Sora's route if I remember correctly and that was more or less just with the whole twincest thing). Concerning Nao, I believe this is one of the fallacies of the medium- the entire incident is forgotten when Haru hooks up with the other girls and when Haru ends up with Nao.. well they're already together so it's played more for drama and angst than any real plot point. Hopefully in the Sora arc more will come out of it.
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Old 2010-11-24, 17:29   Link #1345
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Originally Posted by CantQuiteGuess View Post
That's one of the problems with this whole storyline though, although it was clearly meant to be rape (I mean even Nao knew she raped him), Haruka's reaction to it all these years later was that he enjoyed it, and also seemed to feel he was in the wrong for making Nao start to avoid him. It sometimes seems to me like everyone else in the cast is playing in a drama and Haruka is leading in a laid back RomCom.
Good points, but I'm not sure it was meant to be "rape," in the full emotional sense of that word. We can see that it was rape, in our terms, and that she led him on to do something he really didn't understand. But in retrospect, maybe right after the event, he didn't feel he disliked it, and he didn't feel negative toward her, even though I think he knew it was something that was wrong in some way. He has always been just that positive a guy. Like when he approached her in the bus shelter when they were young.

I guess I accept his comparatively laid-back attitudes, since he really does have some angst among the ease: he worries about each girl, and he worries about Sora. But he really is the responsible one, and is strong enough to go about doing what he has to do to keep the little family unit going. As well as to be with and help each girl.

But he is grounded in an ideal character, the ideal ero-game harem-master, and some of the unrealism of that comes through. As CantQuiteGuess says, perhaps they missed a chance to deepen his character. But I think there is plenty of depth there anyway -- at least more than the vast majority of harem-show leads, and more than most anime characters in general, it seems to me.
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Old 2010-11-24, 17:32   Link #1346
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Originally Posted by CantQuiteGuess View Post
Not knowing how it played out in the game, all I can say is I feel they missed a great opportunity to develop Haruka's character a little. So far nothing seems to affect Haruka at all. His parents were killed in an accident and he suddenly moved back to this town with a slightly unstable, shut-in sister, he's now the one responsible for looking after both of them, and yet they've never seemed to add any of this into Haruka's character. He's always just going 100% to help some girl because he's fallen in love, these girls end up pouring their hearts out to him, and he just accepts what they say, rather than returning the gesture and revealing a little about himself. I can totally understand why Haruka could still like Nao, but it just hasn't come across that there even needs to be a reason. If Haruka had thought about what Nao did, accepted that it was wrong and left him confused, yet refused to let that one incident ruin his entire relationship with her, given that he knows she's ultimately a good person who made a mistake, and decided to pursue a relationship with her because be genuinely likes her and wants her to be happy, then it'd be fine. Maybe that's what were supposed to assume, but so far I haven't seen that come across in the show.
Yes! Finally a statement that expresses what I think!

I don't know how the game portray him, but the anime has him a flat and very basic character that just flows along with whatever happens around him without him being affected.
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Old 2010-11-24, 18:03   Link #1347
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Originally Posted by CantQuiteGuess View Post
Haruka's reaction to it all these years later was that he enjoyed it.
My point exactly. Haru *did* enjoy it back then, that's why you can't really call it "rape". If he would've had it forced upon him, i.e. if would've actually been raped, he certainly wouldn't have enjoyed it.
But that's not the case, he *did* enjoy it, and he developed affection for Nao because of it. If it wouldn't have been for the affection he developed for her because of the sex they had back then, they couldn't have got together as quickly as they did.
The point of the flashback was to show the origin for Haru's affection towards Nao, namely the sex with her. Without it, it would've been a little strange how quickly Haru and Nao got together.

The issue at hand is that Haruka (wrongly!) thought that Haru hadn't liked the sex, and before Haru could understand that and clear up the misunderstanding, he had to move away.
When Haru now came back, he could finally clear up everything and tell her that he likes her (and in fact never stopped liking her, as there never was a reason for him to stop liking her), so they quickly got together again.

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Originally Posted by Freeter View Post
Haru is the luckiest bastard in the world. Dude LOVED that delicious Nao buffet, hell, with a body like that, who wouldn't? Sora was probably more upset that it wasn't her getting pounded by Haru's unstoppable piston
That's it exactly. Sora was bursting with jealousy because it wasn't her that was getting pounded by Haru. She started harbouring that jealousy when she found Nao and Haru doing it, and thus recognised Nao as serious rival to her.
In this episode, she was exploding with jealousy because Haru and Nao, which she has always been considering her biggest rival, got back together again.

This is also another thing that shows that Haru did enjoy the sex back then and wasn't raped. If he would've been raped, with Sora watching it, she could've gone there after it and console him. They would've beonded over it, and Sora would've never felt the need to regard Nao as a rival - if Haru would've been raped, he never would've developed a feeling for her, and thus Nao would've never become competition for Sora.

However, watching it, Sora had realised that Haru had enjoyed it, and that he quite likely would develop strong feelings for Nao because of it. For that reason, she had to regard Nao as a rival. It's just because of Sora's regarding Nao as a rival that she explodes with jealousy when Haru and Nao get back together, while Sora didn't do much when Haru got together with the other girls before.
Sora noticed how well Haru and Nao harmonise with each other, and that she wouldn't have any chance with Haru anymore, should Haru and Nao get together.

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I guess I'm in the minority here in liking Nao, and generally being annoyed with Sora. I know it's not her fault she is how show is, but she really does treat Haru like crap. He shops for her, he cooks for her, he generally makes himself her emotional punching bag. Is it any wonder he wants to get it on with every girl in school? He obviously cares for Nao and she for him, and there's a real sense that things are a lot more serious in this arc. I think that's why Sora's jealousy is so much more pronounced.
I'm with you there. I also think Haru and Nao make quite a nice couple
Sora with her ludicrously insane jealousy is really behaving like an annoying, spoiled rotten brat here, and indeed treats Haru like crap
I'm really suprised that so many people her are still defending her over that
Her uber-bratty behaviour here decreased my liking for her quite a bit. I seriously hope she stops behaving like such an annoying brat in the next episode.
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Old 2010-11-24, 18:30   Link #1348
Equidistant
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My point exactly. Haru *did* enjoy it back then, that's why you can't really call it "rape". If he would've had it forced upon him, i.e. if would've actually been raped, he certainly wouldn't have enjoyed it.
But that's not the case, he *did* enjoy it, and he developed affection for Nao because of it. If it wouldn't have been for the affection he developed for her because of the sex they had back then, they couldn't have got together as quickly as they did.
The point of the flashback was to show the origin for Haru's affection towards Nao, namely the sex with her. Without it, it would've been a little strange how quickly Haru and Nao got together
So why exactly did we get the image of Haruka lying there lifeless looking like he was just raped? I mean both Nao and Sora took what happened as rape, and they're both seriously affected by it one way or another, the only one who it didn't faze was Haruka. I think the rape did have an affect on Haruka, in that Nao started avoiding him after that, and Haruka came to believe that he did something wrong, so rather than blame her for raping him, he feels that he hurt her.
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Old 2010-11-24, 19:05   Link #1349
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Someone being confused after having for the first time sex IS NOT the same with being raped ... I still don't get why people want to label Nao as a slut, rapist, etc. She was just honest with her emotions, and had sex with the guy she loved, knowing that the feeling was mutual. The guilt she felt was from her inexpierence (1st time, since she misinterpreted Haruka's reaction ... like the majority of the witch-hunters here), and from Sora's jelously, since like Haruka, cares about her prospective family and its circumstances (since Sora is overreacting to the point of a cheated wife).

On the other hand, despite the fact that the episode lacked in development, it had excellent characterization (hence all the labelling, since this is the point made from the creators), and did not had to become more explicit to make the point (even for many it was too much). I really hope that we get more shows that manage to walk on this fine line in the future (i.e. a move away from juvenile romances, but also far away from your average cheap hentai).

Finally, I agree that the BMG works perfectly through the show
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Old 2010-11-24, 19:07   Link #1350
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Originally Posted by CantQuiteGuess View Post
So why exactly did we get the image of Haruka lying there lifeless looking like he was just raped? I mean both Nao and Sora took what happened as rape, and they're both seriously affected by it one way or another, the only one who it didn't faze was Haruka. I think the rape did have an affect on Haruka, in that Nao started avoiding him after that, and Haruka came to believe that he did something wrong, so rather than blame her for raping him, he feels that he hurt her.
Yes, exactly this. He still likes Nao (and in this timeline has fallen in love with her) so he doesn't want Nao to think that he is holding a grudge or is angry about what happened in the past. But that does not mean that what happened in the past was something he consented to at the time. In fact, he could not have consented because he didn't know what it was and she didn't explain it. She took advantage of him to cover for her unease and loneliness, but in retrospect (and now that he's a bit older and more world-wise) he doesn't see it as a bad thing... just as I suspect a lot of guys at Haruka's age (at our age still? ) wouldn't consider having had sex with an attractive girl a bad thing, regardless of the circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
She was just honest with her emotions, and had sex with the guy she loved, knowing that the feeling was mutual.
No. Perhaps the anime doesn't make this sufficiently clear (I thought it did...), but the feeling was not "mutual" -- they were just childhood friends until that point. Her feelings towards him at that point were one-sided (she was older than him and he had not matured in his feelings yet), and this is why she felt that what she did was wrong. She is concerned that her selfish act ruined the friendship she used to have with both Haruka and Sora.
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Old 2010-11-24, 19:21   Link #1351
Dahak86
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I do understand what Himeji is trying to say... but, I don't think you can call what happened "consensual" either. I guess, a good way to describe the situation could be "half-rape" or "half-consensual", if such term even exists. It might have started as rape but then, it quickly developed into something slightly different, as soon as Haru has begun "going with the flow".
well, he actually never stopped, he still has the 'habit' of "going with the flow"... especially when said "flow" is sex-related. just look at when Sora busted him having sex with Nao. he just... couldn't stop. not that I can blame him.

anyways, changing the topic to a more "serious" one...
I don't think these were posted yet =>

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... just as I suspect a lot of guys at Haruka's age (at our age still? ) wouldn't consider having had sex with an attractive girl a bad thing, regardless of the circumstances.
this, exactly. you can safely say 99% of guys.
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Old 2010-11-24, 19:45   Link #1352
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Another thing about Sora's reaction to this, and don't misunderstand that I'm approving of her behavior, rather I'm just saying it's completely in character and if she were to act react any other way they'd just be ignoring all of her development throughout the show. Anyways, we have to remember that Nao wasn't just Haruka's childhood friend(like Akira was), she was also Sora's. Sora telling Nao to stop acting like some older sister shows to me that Sora once viewed Nao as just that. When Sora saw what Nao did to Haruka, she probably felt personally betrayed to some extent, that Nao was just pretending to be friendly with her as a way of getting closer to Haruka. So now flash back to the present, and we have a even more dependent Sora catching Haruka and Nao having sex again, and then having to two of them using what must seem like shallow tactics to Sora to try and win her over. So from her perspective, Nao's just doing the same thing Sora felt that she did when they were younger.

For what I feel about Sora's actions though, I'd say that she's right for all the wrong reasons. Giving everything that's happened, her treating Nao like she has would be pretty justifiable, yet it really seems like most of her anger stems from her possessiveness of Haruka. Then again, I do feel like Nao is someone Sora wouldn't like even if she wasn't together with Haruka, and Sora never had this strong of a reaction to Kazuha or Akira so I think that would somewhat back that interpretation up.

Edit: Just wanted to mention that despite how it may seem, I've really enjoyed both these episodes, and I don't dislike Nao as a character. I just find Sora(as insufferable as she may come across at times) more interesting.
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Old 2010-11-24, 19:46   Link #1353
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this, exactly. you can safely say 99% of guys.
I wonder though, how did that 1% managed to be such a vocal majority on-line
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Old 2010-11-24, 19:50   Link #1354
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I wonder though, how did that 1% managed to be such a vocal majority on-line
It's really more a matter of how that scene was portrayed(the broken Haruka image), and the contrast with his present day reaction to it. Broken Haruka says rape, present day Haruka says awesome.
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Old 2010-11-24, 20:05   Link #1355
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Originally Posted by CantQuiteGuess View Post
It's really more a matter of how that scene was portrayed(the broken Haruka image), and the contrast with his present day reaction to it. Broken Haruka says rape, present day Haruka says awesome.
Come on, Haruka was not broken, but confused ... worse though, it was that reaction that made Nao feel so guilty for years, Sora display new and upreceded levels of jelously, and that 1% to fill several forum pages and blogposts with rage at rappist Nao

Now that I think about how people perceive Haruka's reaction, it's common when depicting people having experiences beyond what they thought possible, moral, etc.; but enjoy them.
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Old 2010-11-24, 20:10   Link #1356
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It's really more a matter of how that scene was portrayed(the broken Haruka image), and the contrast with his present day reaction to it. Broken Haruka says rape, present day Haruka says awesome.
Yes. My main objection is only with the insinuation that it was consensual at the time. This is mostly because "absence of objection does not of itself constitute consent". In the context of their relationship at the time (close, trusted friends), in the context of the situation at the time (she was running away from stress at home, both literally and figuratively), and in the context of his mental state at the time (he was too young to know what he was getting into) this wasn't intended to be portrayed as "consensual". She knew this, and that's why she was so ashamed of herself. (It's not just based on the look on his face after sex; that's only for our sake as viewers to help us understand what just happened.) I think this point is pretty important to understanding the episode as it was portrayed.

But I'm not suggesting that he isn't looking back on the situation now and thinking "my childhood friend is hot, she totally slept with me, and wants to do it again; score!".

(I do want to point out again, for whatever it's worth, that the general consensus would probably be different if the genders of the two characters were reversed. Obviously, this show's audience is mostly male, and a lot of us are probably thinking on some level "Damn, why couldn't that have been me at that age!" But I don't think that makes what Nao did "right" any more than it would if the genders were reversed. I guess it's the difference between the objective and the subjective.)
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Old 2010-11-24, 20:18   Link #1357
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I agree with most said, but ...

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
But I don't think that makes what Nao did "right" any more than it would if the genders were reversed.
There is a difference between what Nao did being right or fair (which it was not) ... and labelling her as either a rapist or a slut.
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Old 2010-11-24, 20:23   Link #1358
Equidistant
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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Come on, Haruka was not broken, but confused ... worse though, it was that reaction that made Nao feel so guilty for years, Sora display new and upreceded levels of jelously, and that 1% to fill several forum pages and blogposts with rage at rappist Nao

Now that I think about how people perceive Haruka's reaction, it's common when depicting people having experiences beyond what they thought possible, moral, etc.; but enjoy them.
Again, I'm just referring to the shot of Haruka laying on his stomach, with his pants pulled down and a dead look on his face. The show chose to show us that, and yet present day Haruka completely contradicts what that scene suggests by thinking the sex was awesome. So at one point were supposed to think rape, then were supposed to start high fiving each other in celebration of Haruka's early conquest. My problem is that's just not very good writing. If it wasn't rape, then don't even slightly portray it as rape.
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Old 2010-11-24, 20:37   Link #1359
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There is a difference between what Nao did being right or fair (which it was not) ... and labelling her as either a rapist or a slut.
Well... at least by definition she can't be slut. She's only had Haruka in her heart since the past, and hasn't slept with any other guy (and probably wouldn't either). As for rapist... well, given that Haru has never held it against her and has clearly forgiven her, and how much she regrets it, I think we're supposed to forgive her too. As Haruka says, this is a chance for them to start over. So even if what happened in the past was wrong (and certainly had an impact on the present), I don't think their current relationship is wrong.
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Old 2010-11-24, 20:44   Link #1360
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Anyone else get a kick out of Ryouhei? Oh, and how about those bathing suits. They suited each girl quite nicely.

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