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Old 2010-05-22, 18:44   Link #1
CuXe
Loving Romeo X Juliet
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: City of Angels
Thumbs up Perhaps one of the MOST IMPORTANT Personal Dev Media Files You will Ever Hear!

So I recently came across this video (more like an audio file really) - It is ~35 Minutes long. NO, It has nothing to do with anime and if I must classify this video I'd say it is a remarkable piece about personal development and success.

The information and issues discussed are relevant to everyone, whether you are 10-15 or 50 yo! Hopefully the words spoken won't fall on deaf ears

Quote:
WARNING!DO NOT listen to this file if you are feeling bored or if you are expecting a super-exciting Tony-Robins-style video, go do something else and then come back when you are ready to listen to some Amazing Wisdom
Same video from Youtube (how about that for ur spam claims lol?)


Spoiler for Space - Complete Script:



Discuss

Last edited by CuXe; 2010-05-23 at 17:36.
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Old 2010-05-22, 20:04   Link #2
ClockWorkAngel
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Incredibly inspiring.

I think we can agree that there are a lot of things that we knew about personal development that the audio tape repeats; set goals, work hard etc. But we usually forget them or look at it in a different way.

The card thing is a novel idea. It'll keep the ideas fresh in your mind. I'm getting mine laminated

"Live a healthy and successful life. Pursuit every opportunity. Do not fear the past." is mine.

I think there's a lot of help from having someone tell you these steps; these well known ideals; we're reassured or whatever it may be.

I think that if more people would listen to this and take it to heart, they can make a difference in their lives. But only if they really have the resolve for a single concrete goal.
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Old 2010-05-23, 16:14   Link #3
Nightbat®
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Hmmm, looks like spam to me

anyways, if I want inspiration or a positive attitude I'll ask for ritalin tyvm
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Old 2010-05-23, 17:35   Link #4
CuXe
Loving Romeo X Juliet
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightbat® View Post
Hmmm, looks like spam to me

anyways, if I want inspiration or a positive attitude I'll ask for ritalin tyvm
Posted a shorter version from Youtube as well as the complete script.... as far as Ritalin..... You'd know about that, wouldn't you?
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Old 2010-05-24, 10:28   Link #5
Nightbat®
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Not first hand, intend to keep it that way, tobacco and coffee is all the inspiration I need
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Old 2010-05-26, 16:06   Link #6
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CuXe View Post
Discuss
Do you actually have an oppinion on this yourself... Do you want to conform with someone else's POV (if conformity means to be average, does it imply that non-conformity means success)... Do you actually believe those numbers (54% will be broke — depending on others for life’s necessities)?
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Old 2010-05-26, 16:29   Link #7
CuXe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Do you actually have an oppinion on this yourself... Do you want to conform with someone else's POV (if conformity means to be average, does it imply that non-conformity means success)... Do you actually believe those numbers (54% will be broke — depending on others for life’s necessities)?
Yes, the 54% figure is rather difficult to grasp, specially when the Wold Bank dev indicators show that 80% of Humanity lives on $10 a day or less ... Should I decide to confom with the World's bank "POV" or "Gallup" to draw my conclusions? ..


I say until someone comes out with an even more compelling piece of data.. I'd say YES!

Furthermore according to a Gallup poll (Gallup not FOX poll lol)



Quote:
More than a third of nonretirees (34%) today say they will retire after age 65, nearly triple the 12% who said the same in 1995.
^ Why do you think that is? It is easy to understand that people chose to continue to work becuase they realize they may not have enough saved up for retirement.... where was the goal setting skills of all those people? Do you believe Gallup when they say that it is likely that more than 3X the number of retirees will be broke when they reach their retirement age so they decide to keep working even after they have reached 65 years of age.... compared to 1995? Scary isn't it?

In addition...



Quote:
Only 41% of non-retirees now say they will have enough money to live comfortably when they retire -- an 18-point drop since 2002 -- while a majority of 52% say they will not. Non-retirees are also much less likely now than in years past to say ...
Is this 52% number closer to that 54% quoted in the video?

I am not going to take my own experiences as the "law of the land" but when it comes to people who have no goals and live in complete conformity... I have to say the percentages he quotes in that video are really not far from reality. I work at BOA and all I see day in and day out are people who conform w having just enough to make their payments without any regard for their family's wellbeing, I mean as the head of a family I wouldn't feel "happy" having barely enough money to keep my family a float for another week.

Don't misunderstand me tho, I am not judging people, I am just so used to seeing this behavior it is not difficult to see whether or not the percentages drawn are close to the real thing.

How many successful individuals do you thing there are right now in the US? or in the world for that matter? Can we define success as non-conformity? NO! Those who are not happy with their own situation are not automatically successful because they realize they are not in the best situation they could be.

I would rather stick to the definition of success given in the video which is the gradual step-by-step realization of a goal (or a dream). Those who have a goal and eventually achieve it by setting themselves comprehensible objectives are the ones who are truly successful, whether it be in their financial life, personal life, etc.... which is why he says in the video that the woman who is happy being a mother because that was her life's GOAL is a clear example of success, the same goes for the man who now owns a gas station because that was his life's dream. HECK... an example of success could even be a person who wanted to become an OTAKU but didn't know anything about Jap culture and who has finally achieved the level of "knowledge" he/she wanted to have!

So YEAH, I do have an opinion and it is not based on how much money people have but whether or not they have any GOALs/Dreams at all. Back to my own experiences, I see people with no goals every day, I deliberately asked a few of them (at random) what their goals were and all they said was to get home-sleep-and get back to work and that is just like being stuck in an infinite loop isn't it?.. that is no Goal!! A goal would be to go home, rest and go back to work because he/she wants to better his/her family's situation... because he or she wants to put their children through college... .because they want to take a vacation, etc,etc, etc. So doing something like a robot day in and out and being happy with it equals "horrible conformity" which equals gradual failure imo.

I think that we can discuss numbers all day long but the core message of the video is hard to refute... if it was, we would see millionaires and gazillions of people who have achieved their goals everyday... however as we all know, that is not the case!

Last edited by CuXe; 2010-05-26 at 17:04.
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Old 2010-05-26, 17:00   Link #8
Nightbat®
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Quote:
Those who are not happy with their own situation are not automatically successful because they realize they are not in the best situation they could be
and you (and this commercial)make it sound like they have themselves to blame for that

Here's a little something to ponder
-some people get everything in life handed to them on a silver platter,.. without even asking
-some people work their fingers to the bone and end with nothing

it's called luck, because hard work never made anyone succesful
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Old 2010-05-26, 17:07   Link #9
Jinto
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Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuXe View Post
Yes, the 54% figure is rather difficult to grasp, specially when the Wold Bank dev indicators show that 80% of Humanity lives on $10 a day or less ... Should I decide to confom with the World's bank "POV" to draw my conclusions? ..


I say until someone comes out with an even more compelling piece of data.. I'd say YES!
If you read these lines (or listen to them whatever works better for you)... what would you conclude... is the place he is talking about?
Quote:
We learn to read by the time we’re seven. We learn to make a living by the time we’re 30. Often by that time we’re not only making a living, we’re supporting a family. And yet by the time we’re 65, we haven’t learned how to become financially independent in the richest land that has ever been known. Why? We conform! Most of us are acting like the wrong percentage group — the 95 who don’t succeed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuXe View Post
I am not going to take my own experiences as the "law of the land" but when it comes to people who have no goals and live in complete conformity... I have to say the percentages he quotes in that video are really not far from reality. I work at BOA and all I see day in and day out are people who conform w having just enough to make their payments without any regard for their family's wellbeing, I mean as the head of a family I wouldn't feel "happy" having barely enough money to keep my family a float for another week.
And what would you make different? Some think this:

Be a workoholic and die before you reach the age of 65

is a better way to reach their goal. (just an example of'course)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CuXe View Post
Don't misunderstand me tho, I am not judging people, I am just so used to seeing this behavior it is not difficult to see whether or not the percentages drawn are close to the real thing.

How many successful individuals do you thing there are right now in the US? or in the world for that matter? Can we define success as non-conformity? NO! Those who are not happy with their own situation are not automatically successful because they realize they are not in the best situation they could be.

I would rather stick to the definition of success given in the video which is the gradual step-by-step realization of a goal. Those who have a goal and eventually achieve it by setting themselves comprehensible goals are the ones who are truly successful, whether it be in their financial life, personal life, etc.... which is why he says in the video that the woman who is happy being a mother because that was her life's GOAL is a clear example of success, the same goes for the man who now owns a gas station because that was his life's dream.
If success means to reach a goal, does it have to be related to happiness? Some people try to reach a goal for their whole life and once they reach it, they realize, they are not happy. Because happiness is not reaching just any goal you deem important, it is about reaching a goal that brings you happiness (no matter if they are conform or non-conform).

Quote:
Originally Posted by CuXe View Post
So YEAH, I do have an opinion and it is not based on how much money people have but whether or not they have any GOALs at all.
In that case you could have posted it in your starting post (it would have given this thread a certain seriousness).

Quote:
Originally Posted by CuXe View Post
Back to my own experiences, I see people with no goals every day, I deliberately asked a few of them (at random) what their goals were and all they said was to get home-sleep-and get back to work and that is just like being stuck in an infinite loop.. that is no Goal!! A goal would be to go home, rest and go back to work because he/she wants to better his/her family's situation... because he or she wants to put their children through college... .because they want to take a vacation. So doing something like a robot day in and out and being happy with it equals "horrible conformity" which equals gradual failure.

I think that we can discuss numbers all day long but the core message of the video is hard to refute... if it was, we would see millionaires and gazillions of people who have achieved their goals everyday... however as we all know, that is not the case!
And imo this video is definitly not going to change it. Just because you are motivated doesn't mean too much (the world is not that simple). Conformity provides a certain stability (for some people that is more important)... non-conformity can lead to something exceptionaly good or bad (e.g. setbacks, because their efforts are futile...). And the latter one is what many do not want to experience.

Then again, I like diversity. And if everyone was living to the principles of this essay, it would be just another conformity. (if everyone was successful, the terms that must be met to be successful would just be redefined by someone/many)
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Old 2010-05-26, 17:14   Link #10
CuXe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightbat® View Post
and you (and this commercial)make it sound like they have themselves to blame for that

Here's a little something to ponder
-some people get everything in life handed to them on a silver platter,.. without even asking
-some people work their fingers to the bone and end with nothing

it's called luck, because hard work never made anyone succesful
I think you completely and maybe even deliberately missed my point

YES, some people get everything in life without even asking and yet they have this complete sense of FAILURE.... why is that? Is having "monetary resources" enough to say someone is happy? Do you define having money as happiness?

YES, some people work themselves to the bone and end with nothing, why do yo think that is? Did u read the goal setting part? Someone could work him or herself to death but if he doesn't know the purpose of that effort then WHAT IS THE POINT? Do you see that as a noble act? Maybe you do but we are coming to the sad realization that having no dreams/goals and not planning ahead equals ______ (fill in the blank please)

Is this a commercial? PEOPLE.... SET GOALS and achieve your dreams so that I CAN PROFIT!

YEAH... this IS a commercial





</Today's useful commercial brought to you by >
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Old 2010-05-26, 17:20   Link #11
CuXe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
If you read these lines (or listen to them whatever works better for you)... what would you conclude... is the place he is talking about?


And what would you make different? Some think this:

Be a workoholic and die before you reach the age of 65

is a better way to reach their goal. (just an example of'course)



If success means to reach a goal, does it have to be related to happiness? Some people try to reach a goal for their whole life and once they reach it, they realize, they are not happy. Because happiness is not reaching just any goal you deem important, it is about reaching a goal that brings you happiness (no matter if they are conform or non-conform).



In that case you could have posted it in your starting post (it would have given this thread a certain seriousness).



And imo this video is definitly not going to change it. Just because you are motivated doesn't mean too much (the world is not that simple). Conformity provides a certain stability (for some people that is more important)... non-conformity can lead to something exceptionaly good or bad (e.g. setbacks, because their efforts are futile...). And the latter one is what many do not want to experience.

Then again, I like diversity. And if everyone was living to the principles of this essay, it would be just another conformity. (if everyone was successful, the terms that must be met to be successful would just be redefined by someone/many)
Ahh now this is a constructive set of ideas I can work with! I have to say, to a certain degree I concur with the concept you just laid out. The objective of the video tho is to encourage people to take action, set themselves goals and realize their dreams. If someone reached a goal/dream and realizes he or she is not yet happy.. then, that wasn't a very good goal wasn't it? Imagine setting yourself a goal of putting your kids through college and not feeling happy after accomplishing it?....

I know not many people do so in their entire lives and I concur about the fact that if everyone would live by these guidelines we would just reach another level of conformity .. however that'd be a hard to reach scenario.. kinda like reaching utopia. So I see your point/POV and I must say it is coherent and valid, this is the type of exchange of ideas I was expecting, thanks!
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Old 2010-05-26, 17:40   Link #12
Irenicus
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Look, I know you're excited and all for this stuff, and I believe you're honest about it, but let me explain why there's so little response and the few you've got are all negative:

It's a self-help.

We don't like self-help. It's either nonsense, or it's telling you what you know perfectly well already. Often it even costs you money. Worse, it tells you this stuff through low-brow commercialization and corporate vocabulary. Terms such as "success" and "secret" and "percent" this and that in this kind of context are so incredibly loaded that many of us simply find it all thoroughly exhausting; disgusting, even. At least the prophets of old have style, or at least certain quaint pastoral nostalgia. These new prophets of personal prosperity seem in comparison crass and capitalistic, wannabes and opportunistic gutter-dwellers.

I skimmed through the script excerpt you posted, and though I have no energy for a more thorough analysis, I can already point out a few common tricks employed:

- Statistics spun around like sputnik. No sources of course, or dubious ones at best.

- Random namedrops to make it sound serious (Protip: Marcus Aurelius doesn't care about you).

- Arbitrary you-do-this-according-to-this-schedule "and all will be well."

And so on.

If you want inspirational stories you could have just read Dostoevsky, or Kafka, or Nabokov, or Dazai Osamu. At least these gentlemen are honest.
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Old 2010-05-26, 18:44   Link #13
CuXe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Look, I know you're excited and all for this stuff, and I believe you're honest about it, but let me explain why there's so little response and the few you've got are all negative:

ClockWorkAngel - Positive
Nightbat - Negative from the start
Jinto - Constructive and Coherent Discussion which I consider Positive

2 > 1 the last time I checked ... however this thread wasn't meant to be a popularity contest ... unless I stated it somewhere and forgot about it...

Quote:
It's a self-help. We don't like self-help. It's either nonsense, or it's telling you what you know perfectly well already.
Thats an interesting thought actually, people don't like self-help because this is something people already "know" and yet how many are successful and happy? Now I don't know how telling people to set goals for themselves is nonsense but oh well..

Quote:
Often it even costs you money. Worse, it tells you this stuff through low-brow commercialization and corporate vocabulary. Terms such as "success" and "secret" and "percent" this and that in this kind of context are so incredibly loaded that many of us simply find it all thoroughly exhausting; disgusting, even.
Yeap, that would be acceptable if this was a promotional thread... kinda like trying to sell people a Tony Robins/Glenn Beck/Steve Perry book or video. I didn't know tho that using a bit of academic concepts such as percentages was utterly elitist. I guess all motivational speakers need to be like that average Joe guy if they want to blend in...

Quote:
At least the prophets of old have style, or at least certain quaint pastoral nostalgia. These new prophets of personal prosperity seem in comparison crass and capitalistic, wannabes and opportunistic gutter-dwellers.
Prophets of old were incarcerated, stoned, prosecuted and called heretics, liars, witches.... but from our-time and POV ....I have to agree they did have class

Quote:
I skimmed through the script excerpt you posted, and though I have no energy for a more thorough analysis, I can already point out a few common tricks employed:

- Statistics spun around like sputnik. No sources of course, or dubious ones at best.

- Random namedrops to make it sound serious (Protip: Marcus Aurelius doesn't care about you).

- Arbitrary you-do-this-according-to-this-schedule "and all will be well."

And so on.
Imagine a motivational piece meant for non-elitists, filled with statistics, percentages and complex polls... Hmm what would average Joe do?

Quote:
If you want inspirational stories you could have just read Dostoevsky, or Kafka, or Nabokov, or Dazai Osamu. At least these gentlemen are honest.
There are so many inspirational stories from different people throughout the world.. an inspirational piece doesn't necessarily have to come from famous names but this video just happened to be there and I took it but Imagine... I quoted someone who hasn't quoted any serious capitalistic concepts and yet somehow you brought up a nexus between crass and capitalistic with "wannabes and opportunistic gutter-dwellers" ... could u imagine the reaction from someone who is a hardcore capitalist reading an inspirational story by someone who lived in a socialistic government? (not that I have anything against anyone who believe in socialism, in case you wanna draw that nexus somehow lol)

I don't want to keep opening cans of worms by starting a Capitalistic v Socialistic discussion as u seem to be steering towards but....It is hard to have one foot on both sides of the fence and pretend to play fair with both sides. This video/thread wasn't intended to spread capitalistic ideals unless there is a socialist method to reach your goals and be happy that I don't know about?
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Old 2010-05-26, 22:08   Link #14
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CuXe View Post
Thats an interesting thought actually, people don't like self-help because this is something people already "know" and yet how many are successful and happy? Now I don't know how telling people to set goals for themselves is nonsense but oh well..
Oh, people don't know themselves very well at all. I wouldn't be fool enough to assert otherwise.

The thing is, others -- and by others I particularly mean these prophets of personal prosperity, these authors and pundits and critics, armchair psychologists and pseudo-academics, these priests of the God of Success -- know them even less. All those clowns know are to spin common threads of common wisdom (and we all know how fallible and ever-changing common wisdom is) and make it seem like they were the first to say so.

Like, oh, "set goals for yourself." Who said that first? Some kindergarten teacher, I'd bet. Why the damned 30 days? Why not one day? Why not every minute? Why not after a life long lived and fulfilled? Why not, actually, never? I'll tell you why: it's a stupid random number chosen because this guy wants to make it sound like he was the first to think up, "oh, let's tell people to set goals and follow it!" It's definitely not something one wants to call the most important thing you'll ever hear.

I reserve that honor for "suki desu~!" from a sweet catgirl who just fell on top of me from the sky. [~channeling Saintess] Or if you're not the romantic type, "congratulations, you just won the lottery" will do.

And one little warning: the ease with which you tie happiness with success is one of the clichés which annoyed many of us.

Quote:
Yeap, that would be acceptable if this was a promotional thread... kinda like trying to sell people a Tony Robins/Glenn Beck/Steve Perry book or video. I didn't know tho that using a bit of academic concepts such as percentages was utterly elitist. I guess all motivational speakers need to be like that average Joe guy if they want to blend in...
Actually, I was coming in from the opposite: I, for one, know statistics. What they are, what they can do, what people can make them do. We academics -- yes, even in the liberal fields -- are very, very wary of these "popular" statistics that imply a lot and never tell enough. We want to know what these motivational speakers never really give us: credible sources, detailed, reliable methods, clarifications, qualifying words, alternate arguments -- hypotheses and conclusions drawn with the caution of discipline. Call it elitist, but to me the way these inspirational gentlemen (and ladies) misuse statistics are like childish magician's tricks we know and dismiss.

Quote:
Prophets of old were incarcerated, stoned, prosecuted and called heretics, liars, witches.... but from our-time and POV ....I have to agree they did have class
Or they became rulers and led campaigns of conquest. Yes, they had class. And if they didn't then age have given them a kind of cultural quaintness. These days we only get the fools out to make money. No sense of taste, no appreciation for la gloire. Can you blame me for being cynical? If I'm going to be swept away by some idiocy I at least want it to be with a magnificent idiot.

Quote:
There are so many inspirational stories from different people throughout the world.. an inspirational piece doesn't necessarily have to come from famous names but this video just happened to be there and I took it but Imagine... I quoted someone who hasn't quoted any serious capitalistic concepts and yet somehow you brought up a nexus between crass and capitalistic with "wannabes and opportunistic gutter-dwellers" ... could u imagine the reaction from someone who is a hardcore capitalist reading an inspirational story by someone who lived in a socialistic government? (not that I have anything against anyone who believe in socialism, in case you wanna draw that nexus somehow lol)
Alas, you missed my joke with the names. A hint: they are much closer related than Marcus Aurelius and Dr. Schweitzer.
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Old 2010-05-26, 22:58   Link #15
ClockWorkAngel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
If you want inspirational stories you could have just read Dostoevsky, or Kafka, or Nabokov, or Dazai Osamu. At least these gentlemen are honest.
Dazai has very inspirational characters, if I could I'd would like to live a life much like my comedian.

I think there's a particular reason why we as a people don't seem to like Self-Help or the concept of a man telling you things you already know;

We're tired of listening to people telling us that the sky's the limit and that all in possible in the great country of <Insert Capitalist State Here>. Get our simple high and moment of inspiration and in the end accomplish nothing.

But isn't a lot of our problems comes with this skepticism that we learn; to be careful about snake-oil salesmen promising you the world? To take a listen to a person but always with a grain of thought?

Yes, there's always the way they spin their words, the random Roman Emperor popping up giving us advice that we've heard in one way or another. But is that such a bad thing? Being a hypothetical question, I'm inclined to say no.

And yes, the irony does dawn onto me that I may be very well using such techniques; garnering sympathy etc. But that's very much the problem; we're too keen on saying "Haha! I caught you!" or "I see what you did there!", we've become cautious; which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but perhaps we've become too cautious, and just can't take things at face value. For too long we've been taught to read between the lines and look for a hidden message.

tl;dr We can always just take it at face value and just put it aside as another lesson to store or to throw away. I like to think that we've at least that much of an opinion.
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Old 2010-05-26, 23:40   Link #16
CuXe
Loving Romeo X Juliet
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: City of Angels
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Oh, people don't know themselves very well at all. I wouldn't be fool enough to assert otherwise.

The thing is, others -- and by others I particularly mean these prophets of personal prosperity, these authors and pundits and critics, armchair psychologists and pseudo-academics, these priests of the God of Success -- know them even less. All those clowns know are to spin common threads of common wisdom (and we all know how fallible and ever-changing common wisdom is) and make it seem like they were the first to say so.

Like, oh, "set goals for yourself." Who said that first? Some kindergarten teacher, I'd bet. Why the damned 30 days? Why not one day? Why not every minute? Why not after a life long lived and fulfilled? Why not, actually, never? I'll tell you why: it's a stupid random number chosen because this guy wants to make it sound like he was the first to think up, "oh, let's tell people to set goals and follow it!" It's definitely not something one wants to call the most important thing you'll ever hear.
Not a single modern motivational speaker has come up with absolutely unique and ground-breaking wisdom, everything has been said before by someone centuries ago, that doesn't defeat the purpose of their argument tho, that'd just be a way to railroad an argument out of existence, sort of like discrediting a teacher because he is not the first to teach the concepts being taught.

I for one am very skeptical and resilient of people who try to push their own philosophy onto others so I believe that anything said by a motivational speaker can be easily remembered or forgotten however, if I am going to learn something from someone I rather learn it from the best possible source such as RedStone or Buffet as far as financial stuff, there are many others that would fall within the extent of your conundrums of philosophy. But hey! what would these people know about success within their field of expertise right?

As far as the time tables, people who are learning about self-discipline and goal setting often miss the fact that a goal needs to get coupled with a comprehensive time-table. Why 30 days? Why 7 days? Why the time-table cliché? Because there simply needs to be a measure of time attached to a goal otherwise they are quickly forgotten by people without a strong sense of discipline. Is discipline a cliché? Can things be accomplished in days rather than months? Sure, it all depends on the person's sense of responsibility towards the goal set. Don't like time-tables being associated with goals? Then thats not something a motivational speaker can help you out with.

Is telling someone to set themselves a clear goal and take action one of the most important things they'll eve hear? Perhaps you need to socialize a little more and get a clear sense of why the majority of people in any country fall within the "common denominator" Heck you don't even have to bother socializing, just go to a random casino in Vegas and just look at people, do you think most of them have a clear sense of where is it they are going or what is it that they are doing with their lives? Sure we can exclude tourists but there is plenty of people who are stuck in such vicious loops.

Those who need no motivation and have reached their goals are always the minority.

Quote:
I reserve that honor for "suki desu~!" from a sweet catgirl who just fell on top of me from the sky. [~channeling Saintess] Or if you're not the romantic type, "congratulations, you just won the lottery" will do.
As great phillosopher once said "Whatever floats your boat!" - Bender

Quote:
And one little warning: the ease with which you tie happiness with success is one of the clichés which annoyed many of us.
I didn't know it annoyed you! This line is rather helpful to understand where is it that you are coming from, perhaps it would be easier to tie Happiness with failure and poverty?

Quote:
Actually, I was coming in from the opposite: I, for one, know statistics. What they are, what they can do, what people can make them do. We academics -- yes, even in the liberal fields -- are very, very wary of these "popular" statistics that imply a lot and never tell enough.
Tell a lot and never tell enough.... now that my friend is the clear definition of Cliché (a trite phrase or expression; also : the idea expressed by it - Merriam Webster)

Quote:
We want to know what these motivational speakers never really give us: credible sources, detailed, reliable methods, clarifications, qualifying words, alternate arguments -- hypotheses and conclusions drawn with the caution of discipline. Call it elitist, but to me the way these inspirational gentlemen (and ladies) misuse statistics are like childish magician's tricks we know and dismiss.
The job of a motivational speaker is to inspire their audience not to teach them the cold-hard facts, however none of the statistics quoted were far fetched even tho this motivational speaker lived between 1921-1989 and amazingly (as Gallup shows) things haven't changed all that much.

But hey statistics can be bent either way right, sort of like the truth? Just like when Fox somehow ads up 59% + 35% + 26% to an even 100%



Or better yet:

Spoiler for Fox Percentages - LOL:


Quote:
These days we only get the fools out to make money. No sense of taste, no appreciation for la gloire. Can you blame me for being cynical? If I'm going to be swept away by some idiocy I at least want it to be with a magnificent idiot.
Hey! we find what we seek, if you turn on the TV and look for wisdom all you are going to get is people who will try to sell you the next way to riches or a SlapChop. Generalizing and grouping everyone in one bunch and calling them idiots is rather distasteful.

Quote:
Alas, you missed my joke with the names. A hint: they are much closer related than Marcus Aurelius and Dr. Schweitzer.
That was a joke? Well perhaps if it would have been used in a different context it would have come across as one

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel View Post
Dazai has very inspirational characters, if I could I'd would like to live a life much like my comedian.

I think there's a particular reason why we as a people don't seem to like Self-Help or the concept of a man telling you things you already know;

We're tired of listening to people telling us that the sky's the limit and that all in possible in the great country of <Insert Capitalist State Here>. Get our simple high and moment of inspiration and in the end accomplish nothing.

But isn't a lot of our problems comes with this skepticism that we learn; to be careful about snake-oil salesmen promising you the world? To take a listen to a person but always with a grain of thought?

Yes, there's always the way they spin their words, the random Roman Emperor popping up giving us advice that we've heard in one way or another. But is that such a bad thing? Being a hypothetical question, I'm inclined to say no.

And yes, the irony does dawn onto me that I may be very well using such techniques; garnering sympathy etc. But that's very much the problem; we're too keen on saying "Haha! I caught you!" or "I see what you did there!", we've become cautious; which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but perhaps we've become too cautious, and just can't take things at face value. For too long we've been taught to read between the lines and look for a hidden message.

tl;dr We can always just take it at face value and just put it aside as another lesson to store or to throw away. I like to think that we've at least that much of an opinion.
Great points! Couldn't have said it better myself
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Old 2010-05-27, 15:24   Link #17
Irenicus
Le fou, c'est moi
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 24
Eh, I don't really want to fight this fight or whatever, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel
Yes, there's always the way they spin their words, the random Roman Emperor popping up giving us advice that we've heard in one way or another.
Marcus Aurelius is fine. He's just a bit on the naive side, being taught to be stoic philosopher and groomed since youth towards being the Emperor of the Known World and all.

So when he said that every man can be what he thinks he should be one can't really blame him for believing so. He's the Emperor. One also can't really blame the peasants around Antiocheia for disagreeing with His Imperial Majesty, given that they probably thought they should be the Emperor, or moderately "successful" (whatever that meant in the Second Century of the Empire), or better yet not starving and suffering natural disasters and bearing the brunt of a full-scale war with the, hmm, Parthians wasit?

But...it's their fault and they should have listened to a motivational speaker and set goals they need to look up every thirty days. Not dead yet - Check. Not starving yet - Check. Not squeezed to death by Imperial taxes yet - Err...Check. Not being raped and pillaged by their own legionnaires - Not Check, try again next month, sucker.

I'm rambling on but what I really wanted to say was: he was quoted with no context because he sounds good. Academics don't like that either, nuh-uh. Maybe M. Aurelius was actually writing a thesis on the nature of stoic Neoplatonist Ideals in the Pax Romana and meant something completely different -- rather than on the possibility of financial success and personal happiness, somehow inseparable, in the 21st century globalized economic world -- and we wouldn't have a clue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel
And yes, the irony does dawn onto me that I may be very well using such techniques; garnering sympathy etc. But that's very much the problem; we're too keen on saying "Haha! I caught you!" or "I see what you did there!", we've become cautious; which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but perhaps we've become too cautious, and just can't take things at face value. For too long we've been taught to read between the lines and look for a hidden message.
Trust me, if we actually do that all the time the world will be such a better place.

Your proposition that we've become too cynical to do anything against the evils of society can actually go the opposite way: these self-help gurus are distracting us from the real deal, feeding us pipe dreams, focusing our attention on self-obsessed notions of Success (and its unspoken corollary, Failure, aka the losers who make up the pitiful 95% of humanity according to this guy) rather than to galvanize human interest towards more worthy causes. In any case most of us, more or less, don't spend our days tearing apart the a priori assumptions of existence. We live and breath and work and make love and chat about stupid things most of the time. Given our laxness, it really is better that when we sit down and read the news online (what? TV?) we should be just a little bit alert and hard to please.

Or else we the fickle masses are mollified with trinkets and miracle tales ("success stories") when we should be heading towards world revolution, Instrumentality, galactic conquest and a higher kind of existence.

Or better yet, just be ourselves and not made more discontent by some random fool telling us we suck and we really should be making more money (oh sure, "individual goals") if we're actually someone.

Quote:
tl;dr We can always just take it at face value and just put it aside as another lesson to store or to throw away. I like to think that we've at least that much of an opinion.
Are you asking me to be more gullible than I already am?


Quote:
Originally Posted by CuXe
As far as the time tables, people who are learning about self-discipline and goal setting often miss the fact that a goal needs to get coupled with a comprehensive time-table. Why 30 days? Why 7 days? Why the time-table cliché? Because there simply needs to be a measure of time attached to a goal otherwise they are quickly forgotten by people without a strong sense of discipline. Is discipline a cliché? Can things be accomplished in days rather than months? Sure, it all depends on the person's sense of responsibility towards the goal set. Don't like time-tables being associated with goals? Then thats not something a motivational speaker can help you out with.
In other words we suck so bad someone else has to run our lives for us.

Like that's the notion of Success.

Look, I understand discipline. I just happen to also have this inkling notion that if we need someone else to tell us discipline means eight days a week you go and do this thing or that thing, and then you'll be totally successful because this guy told you you'll be, it's not exactly a case of us gaining mastery over our mortal failures in a glorious display of human achievement.

Quote:
Those who need no motivation and have reached their goals are always the minority.
And they're the one gloating over the rest of us for following them like sheep and failing.

Quote:
As great phillosopher once said "Whatever floats your boat!" - Bender
Mmm, Bender.

...what?

Quote:
I didn't know it annoyed you! This line is rather helpful to understand where is it that you are coming from, perhaps it would be easier to tie Happiness with failure and poverty?
Or perhaps it would be easier to tie happiness with happiness? The obsession with "success" in the context of a capitalized society is often pointed out as a contributing factor of why the richest generation in human history are still rather unhappy about themselves.

Another contributing factor is not enough ritalin and romance.

Quote:
Tell a lot and never tell enough.... now that my friend is the clear definition of Cliché (a trite phrase or expression; also : the idea expressed by it - Merriam Webster)
Oh sweet, let's take a little play on words and pretend it was the cornerstone of my point.

Fine: statistics that are not properly sourced, that are worded in such ways as to imply overwhelming support towards a particular position, that may have been acquired through methods which were not necessary rigorous and reviewed, that are therefore essentially mind tricks, lies, and BS. They, in short, er, tell a lot and never tell enough.

The cliché you were using, on the other hand...

Quote:
But hey statistics can be bent either way right, sort of like the truth? Just like when Fox somehow ads up 59% + 35% + 26% to an even 100%
There you go. Now you see why I'm skeptical when statistics are used in popular contexts. Let's bring an example from the other side of the spectrum even: there's "Obama won the popular vote (based on the number of votes cast)" -- which is true as true can be -- and "Obama won with the support of the majority of the nation" -- which could be true, but the popular vote number only suggests such, given that you also have to count the voters who didn't vote, the non-voters, the non-citizens who may or may not be part of the nation. Then you have to gauge their reasons one way or another. And since you can't do this for everyone you employ a reliable sample gathering technique. Then you go back to the beginning and make sure your definition of "support" is well-articulated enough to mean anything...

...and so on and so forth. Statistics are fun. They can even be useful. They are also easy to manipulate. We have no idea what this guy really meant by "success." An anecdote or two and a fine-sounding empty phrase don't count.

Quote:
That was a joke? Well perhaps if it would have been used in a different context it would have come across as one
You're still missing it.

Dammit, I hate explaining jokes. Fine: they're all authors. Their stories have, broadly, a certain distinguishing characteristic shared between them: they're all deep, way deeper than "set goals and be successhappy!", and these deep stuff are, most importantly, all rather depressing. Nabokov a little less so if you think Lolita was having fun.

Great, now the joke's ruined. Explained jokes are never fun.
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Old 2010-05-27, 17:10   Link #18
Nightbat®
Deadpan Snarker
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Neverlands
Age: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuXe View Post
I think you completely and maybe even deliberately missed my point

YES, some people get everything in life without even asking and yet they have this complete sense of FAILURE.... why is that? Is having "monetary resources" enough to say someone is happy? Do you define having money as happiness?

YES, some people work themselves to the bone and end with nothing, why do yo think that is? Did u read the goal setting part? Someone could work him or herself to death but if he doesn't know the purpose of that effort then WHAT IS THE POINT? Do you see that as a noble act? Maybe you do but we are coming to the sad realization that having no dreams/goals and not planning ahead equals ______ (fill in the blank please)

Is this a commercial? PEOPLE.... SET GOALS and achieve your dreams so that I CAN PROFIT!

YEAH... this IS a commercial





</Today's useful commercial brought to you by >
You're right, first explain the definition of 'succes' to me, then explain the definition of 'delusion'

being content with what you have (achieved), has nothing to do with succes

Now let's grab a guitar and start singing "Kumbayaa" 'round the campfire

This is all about PoV, someone with no arms and legs could feel on top of the world being able to feed himself without use of a straw

call that a succes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CuXe View Post
Nightbat - Negative from the start
"Idealism is what precedes experience. Cynicism is what follows"
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Old 2010-05-27, 17:40   Link #19
CuXe
Loving Romeo X Juliet
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: City of Angels
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightbat® View Post
You're right, first explain the definition of 'succes' to me, then explain the definition of 'delusion'
This is not even an argument really. Lets see how Princeton University defines success:

Quote:
an event that accomplishes its intended purpose
Merriam Webster:

Quote:
favorable or desired outcome; also : the attainment of wealth, favor, or eminence
Success Defined in the Video:

Quote:
Success is the Progressive realization of a worthy ideal
Delusion:

Quote:
a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary
If you are unable to see the difference between these two definitions allow me to enlighten you. Success is reached by accomplishing something based on a goal which you formulated with a specific purpose in mind.

In order to claim that a concept or a train of thought is rather delusional you need to prove two things, you need to prove that there is a "psychotic belief" in place which you haven't, I really don't know how you could pull that off really, tying up motivational speech to a psychotic belief. Second you need to prove "INDISPUTABLE" evidence that your argument is the truth, which you obviously haven't, you are just throwing concepts in the air like Glenn Beck

Quote:
being content with what you have (achieved), has nothing to do with succes
Read the definition of success by Merriam Webster and Princeton University please.

Quote:
Now let's grab a guitar and start singing "Kumbayaa" 'round the campfire
should I even comment on this? lol

Quote:
This is all about PoV, someone with no arms and legs could feel on top of the world being able to feed himself without use of a straw

call that a succes?
Ohh, thank you from bringing that up. Actually if someone had no arms or legs, the sole idea that this person could survive, get a college degree and have a cheerful POV about life can be called success... not just that but an Overwhelming Success! Take a look at what THIS HAPPY & Successful PERSON has accomplished without Arms and Legs:



Quote:
"Idealism is what precedes experience. Cynicism is what follows"
“The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who haven't got it.”



==================================================




Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Eh, I don't really want to fight this fight or whatever, but...
I consider this more of an argument than a fight since you are actually bringing up some coherent thoughts compared to NightBat whose opening remark was to quote me on prescription drugs for a better source of inspiration (wow, talk about the rocket launcher-foot-technique).

Quote:
Marcus Aurelius is fine. He's just a bit on the naive side, being taught to be stoic philosopher and groomed since youth towards being the Emperor of the Known World and all.

So when he said that every man can be what he thinks he should be one can't really blame him for believing so. He's the Emperor. One also can't really blame the peasants around Antiocheia for disagreeing with His Imperial Majesty, given that they probably thought they should be the Emperor, or moderately "successful" (whatever that meant in the Second Century of the Empire), or better yet not starving and suffering natural disasters and bearing the brunt of a full-scale war with the, hmm, Parthians wasit?

But...it's their fault and they should have listened to a motivational speaker and set goals they need to look up every thirty days. Not dead yet - Check. Not starving yet - Check. Not squeezed to death by Imperial taxes yet - Err...Check. Not being raped and pillaged by their own legionnaires - Not Check, try again next month, sucker.

I'm rambling on but what I really wanted to say was: he was quoted with no context because he sounds good. Academics don't like that either, nuh-uh. Maybe M. Aurelius was actually writing a thesis on the nature of stoic Neoplatonist Ideals in the Pax Romana and meant something completely different -- rather than on the possibility of financial success and personal happiness, somehow inseparable, in the 21st century globalized economic world -- and we wouldn't have a clue.

Trust me, if we actually do that all the time the world will be such a better place.
The premise of the video is that in "current times" people don't seem to take advantage of the many opportunities given to them based on the freedom most people have the luck of enjoying. Of course, no motivational speaker would have made any difference when you lived in an age when "Freedom" was better defined by not being "enslaved" or having enough money to pay your taxes to the Emperor.

Heck during the time of Marcus Aurelius freedom, as it is known today, would have been considered treason against the emperor, there was no freedom of speech clause and people only needed to lift a finger to accuse any public speaker of treason against the Emperor. So there would be a huge level of disparity if we apply a modern concept of motivational speech to an Era when Freedom wasn't even close to what it is today.

Quote:
Your proposition that we've become too cynical to do anything against the evils of society can actually go the opposite way: these self-help gurus are distracting us from the real deal, feeding us pipe dreams, focusing our attention on self-obsessed notions of Success (and its unspoken corollary, Failure, aka the losers who make up the pitiful 95% of humanity according to this guy) rather than to galvanize human interest towards more worthy causes. In any case most of us, more or less, don't spend our days tearing apart the a priori assumptions of existence. We live and breath and work and make love and chat about stupid things most of the time. Given our laxness, it really is better that when we sit down and read the news online (what? TV?) we should be just a little bit alert and hard to please.

Or else we the fickle masses are mollified with trinkets and miracle tales ("success stories") when we should be heading towards world revolution, Instrumentality, galactic conquest and a higher kind of existence.

Or better yet, just be ourselves and not made more discontent by some random fool telling us we suck and we really should be making more money (oh sure, "individual goals") if we're actually someone.


Are you asking me to be more gullible than I already am?
The 95% success mentioned in the video is based on economic ideals, however it is also mentioned that if a woman sets herself a goal of being a good mother and if she progressively accomplishes that goal then that would be an example of success because that is what she wanted, that was her goal. So again, success doesn't have to be defined by wealth but by the progressive realization of ideals that we envision.

If someone's goal is to live a peaceful life in which he/she would "live and breath and work and make love and chat about stupid things most of the time" and if that goal is accomplished then wouldn't that be called success in itself? Do we have to necessarily group these people with the 95% failed group based on economic factors? Of course not!

Quote:
In other words we suck so bad someone else has to run our lives for us.
Off course not! That wasn't what I implied or what the video implies for that matter.

Like that's the notion of Success.

Quote:
Look, I understand discipline. I just happen to also have this inkling notion that if we need someone else to tell us discipline means eight days a week you go and do this thing or that thing, and then you'll be totally successful because this guy told you you'll be, it's not exactly a case of us gaining mastery over our mortal failures in a glorious display of human achievement.


And they're the one gloating over the rest of us for following them like sheep and failing.
All that was meant by the cliché of linking a goal to a time table is to stick to that goal and make it happen in a timely fashion otherwise people lose perspective. I understand there are very driven individuals for whom discipline and motivational speech would be an overstatement because they understand and practice these principles but unfortunately not everyone is like that.



Quote:
Or perhaps it would be easier to tie happiness with happiness? The obsession with "success" in the context of a capitalized society is often pointed out as a contributing factor of why the richest generation in human history are still rather unhappy about themselves.
I would agree if the definition of "success" was exclusively tied to wealth however that is not how it is.

Quote:
Another contributing factor is not enough ritalin and romance.
LOL

Oh sweet, let's take a little play on words and pretend it was the cornerstone of my point.

Quote:
Fine: statistics that are not properly sourced, that are worded in such ways as to imply overwhelming support towards a particular position, that may have been acquired through methods which were not necessary rigorous and reviewed, that are therefore essentially mind tricks, lies, and BS. They, in short, er, tell a lot and never tell enough.

The cliché you were using, on the other hand...
I understand that statistics and mathematical concepts have almost no place in motivational speech however none of the data quoted (which was very little) was extremely outrageous such as what we see thrown randomly at Fox News.


Quote:
There you go. Now you see why I'm skeptical when statistics are used in popular contexts. Let's bring an example from the other side of the spectrum even: there's "Obama won the popular vote (based on the number of votes cast)" -- which is true as true can be -- and "Obama won with the support of the majority of the nation" -- which could be true, but the popular vote number only suggests such, given that you also have to count the voters who didn't vote, the non-voters, the non-citizens who may or may not be part of the nation. Then you have to gauge their reasons one way or another. And since you can't do this for everyone you employ a reliable sample gathering technique. Then you go back to the beginning and make sure your definition of "support" is well-articulated enough to mean anything...

...and so on and so forth. Statistics are fun. They can even be useful. They are also easy to manipulate. We have no idea what this guy really meant by "success." An anecdote or two and a fine-sounding empty phrase don't count.
I agree about the use of statistics, much like truth they can be bent in one way or another. Now regarding electoral polling techniques there will always be a lot of controversy about what really goes on, a party may see the glass half empty the other one might see the glass half full.

The definition of success given by "this guy" was the "progressive realization of a worthy ideal" - he gave a financial example but also a couple of examples of success which had nothing to do with wealth.


Quote:
You're still missing it.

Dammit, I hate explaining jokes. Fine: they're all authors. Their stories have, broadly, a certain distinguishing characteristic shared between them: they're all deep, way deeper than "set goals and be successhappy!", and these deep stuff are, most importantly, all rather depressing. Nabokov a little less so if you think Lolita was having fun.

Great, now the joke's ruined. Explained jokes are never fun.
I understand they were all authors however the initial thought was steering the thread from a motivational POV to Capitalistic v Socialistic principles which are yet another big source of controversy and disagreement which is why I didn't take that as a joke. I know there are many authors that go into more wholesome material but the video serves its purpose for what is worth.

Last edited by CuXe; 2010-05-29 at 18:14.
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Old 2010-05-28, 19:05   Link #20
Nightbat®
Deadpan Snarker
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Neverlands
Age: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuXe View Post
In order to claim that a concept or a train of thought is rather delusional you need to prove two things, you need to prove that there is a "psychotic belief" in place which you haven't, I really don't know how you could pull that off really, tying up motivational speech to a psychotic belief. Second you need to prove "INDISPUTABLE" evidence that your argument is the truth, which you obviously haven't, you are just throwing concepts in the air like Glenn Beck
I said they were crazy, they said I was crazy and damn, they outnumberd me

Depression is considered a mental illness, yet delusional happiness isn't,...
Why?



Quote:
Ohh, thank you from bringing that up. Actually if someone had no arms or legs, the sole fact that this person could survive, get a college degree and have a cheerful POV about life can be called success... not just that but an Overwhelming Success! Take a look at what THIS HAPPY & Successful PERSON has accomplished without Arms and Legs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4uG2...layer_embedded
in seriousness:
Just because someone is handicapped, doesn't mean he's not able to do anything



But it's funny, you know why?

Quote:
Delusion:

a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary
So now about that "indisputable proof"
There is none, you see a succesful 'artist', but he's only attracting attention because it looks more like a friggin freakshow

you claim he's succesful, other may claim he's delusional

So it's the PoV thing again, which that whole motivational speech contains

But to end in the point I was trying to make
All in all you can only Realize you're happy, you can't Pretend you'll become happy
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