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Old 2010-05-28, 20:03   Link #21
CuXe
Loving Romeo X Juliet
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: City of Angels
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightbatŪ View Post

Depression is considered a mental illness, yet delusional happiness isn't,...
Why?
Delusion and Depression are both mental illnesses however to apply delusion to the argument given you need to "prove" that the thought being discussed is delusional following the accredited definition of "delusion" which you don't seem to follow, you are just "assuming" that the thought is delusional without any regard to the actual definition of the word and chose to throw the concept of happiness into the mix.


Quote:
in seriousness:
Just because someone is handicapped, doesn't mean he's not able to do anything
Indeed however your original comment about handicapped people was and I quote "This is all about PoV, someone with no arms and legs could feel on top of the world being able to feed himself without use of a straw ...call that a success?"

That thought in itself implies that someone without arms and legs should be unable to even feed himself with a straw and yet you make a mockery of that by calling the act of being able to feed using a straw "a success" - Let me remind you once again what the definitions of success are:

Princeton: an event that accomplishes its intended purpose
The video in question: Success is the Progressive realization of a worthy ideal

So if a person who doesn't have arms/legs sets himself "A GOAL" of being able to feed himself with a straw and after all the effort that it takes, he accomplishes that task then YES, that is a success regardless of how minimalistic you think that success might be from the point of view of someone Completely Healthy.

Furthermore, consider the FACT that there are many people who ARE physically capable of doing what he has done without arms and legs and yet they fail to accomplish half of what he is doing. Lets put it in simple terms, how many perfectly healthy people fail to complete college just because they don't have the will power to keep at it?

Now don't go twisting my words about it, I was clearly referring to "perfectly healthy individuals" and "will power" as there are many who drop out for different reasons.




Quote:
So now about that "indisputable proof"
There is none
Thank you for destroying your own argument. From here one out I don't see the need to continue the discussion but heck, I am amused





Quote:
you see a succesful 'artist', but he's only attracting attention because it looks more like a friggin freakshow

you claim he's succesful, other may claim he's delusional

So it's the PoV thing again, which that whole motivational speech contains
AHA! I see what happened here, core disagreement here is that you have yet to understand the definition of Delusion vs Success.

If that person's goal was to become an artist, attract people, etc - IF he actually accomplishes that goal then yes, he is successful. Those who claim he is delusional don't know the definition of delusion because it clearly doesn't apply to this example. Let me refresh your mind:
Definition of delusion: a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary.

Back to that "artist" .. the only way the concept of delusion can be applied to this artist is if the believes he is successful despite of the fact that his goal was never to become and artist (or if he failed at that) and regardless of the indisputable failure, he keeps thinking he is happy and successful while he is failing to himself. THAT MY FRIEND is the only way the word "delusion" can be rightfully applied to this example.

So as you see our point of views differ only because one of us is actually keeping in mind the definition of the words according to the context in which they are used and the other one is clearly disregarding the meaning of key-words throughout this discussion and using them anyways.

Quote:
But to end in the point I was trying to make
All in all you can only Realize you're happy, you can't Pretend you'll become happy
You just gave a clear example of delusion - Happiness can't be achieved by false pretenses that would in fact be a delusional state of mind. What the video discusses tho is that you can become what you want to become if you set your mind to it, set yourself goals and progressively achieve them which is not the definition of happiness but success. (There is a difference, one is just the product of the other)

Last edited by CuXe; 2010-05-28 at 21:17.
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Old 2010-05-28, 21:51   Link #22
NightbatŪ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CuXe View Post
You just gave a clear example of delusion - Happiness can't be achieved by false pretenses that would in fact be a delusional state of mind. What the video discusses tho is that you can become what you want to become if you set your mind to it, set yourself goals and progressively achieve them which is not the definition of happiness but success. (There is a difference, one is just the product of the other)


and the bold part is where it all falls down

Those "5 out of 100", you really think they only have themselves to thank for their "success"?
Those "95 out of 100", you think they are all ambitionless lazy assed bums?

There are no guarantees in life

and no "feel good" dialog will ever change that

want "indisputable evidence' for that statement? or will you take it as fact?

Success isn't the progressive realization of an ideal, only the realisation of an ideal
succes is an endresult, not a means
If one would try untill the end of his life but not achieve his goal, he can only be content with the knowledge of giving his best
Ironicly, such a person would with his contentment only yield to conformity
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Old 2010-05-29, 01:20   Link #23
CuXe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightbatŪ View Post
and the bold part is where it all falls down

Those "5 out of 100", you really think they only have themselves to thank for their "success"?
Those "95 out of 100", you think they are all ambitionless lazy assed bums?
No it doesn't. You are implying that regardless of how much anyone tries and sets their mind to something, regardless of how much effort anyone puts in making something happen they will not achieve their goal which is simply not true and its a rather sad view of how the world works.

There is an infinite number of negative thoughts with which you can hijack yourself out of success or from the thought of ever doing something for that matter. By thinking positively, setting goals and taking action you improve your chances of success a lot more than someone who is horribly-negative has no goals, ambitions or never takes action towards anything. Is that wishful thinking? Perhaps the many people who start and run a successful business throughout the world (because thats what they set their minds to) are as diluted as I am right?

#1 No one is an island unto himself. Can you succeed all by yourself? If your goal is something you can reach on your own sure! however most people need a collaborative effort or need to get other people involved to realize their goals. Want a concrete example? Lets think how Henry Ford grew his company and created the concept of the production line, sure Ford as a company has seen better days however the production line concept is what has made manufacturing companies strong, they "outsource" the work to other people. Could Henry Ford have taken his operation from a concept to a huge operation all by himself considering all the manufacturing effort required? Was other people involved in his success? I rest my case

#2 The people who didn't achive this "financial goal" simply failed at achieving that particular goal, that doesn't mean that their entire life was an utter failure and that they are "lazy assed bums" because after reaching retirement many are still working, we can not refer to those people are lazy in any way. Financial examples are often cited when people talk about success simply because money affects more areas of our lives than we dare to admit.

As I have stated like 3+ times before, you don't only measure success in financial terms. If you heard the entire audio file or read the actual content I pasted in the OP thread, you will see that the speaker moves on to say that you can be successful by achieving your goals in other areas of your life, like parenthood, etc.

Quote:
There are no guarantees in life

and no "feel good" dialog will ever change that
Off course there aren't, we all know that. One day we are here and the next we could be gone, we just have to live every day as if it was our last but hey! that is just "feel good dialog" too right?

To simplify things a lot. Quote me on ONE PERSON who has reached success by thinking as negatively as you are right now. Don't go quoting me on people who win the lottery because as we all know that is pure luck! Neither people who have inherited things because they didn't put any effort towards achieving what they now have.

Quote:
want "indisputable evidence' for that statement? or will you take it as fact?
I don't need proof as to why "there are no guarantees in life" because that is common knowledge. The part where I asked for indisputable evidence was to make the point that you were misusing the word "delusion" by giving it an erroneous definition.

Quote:
Success isn't the progressive realization of an ideal, only the realisation of an ideal
succes is an endresult, not a means
Wait, so if you don't achieve something gradually (synonym of progressive based on the context) that means that you can jump from step 1 to 10 and declare utter success? That is a great example of the READY, FIRE, AIM approach .. which is one of the reasons why people fail.

Simply put, in order to reach a goal you need to start at step 1, then follow step 2, 3, 4 .. until you reach the step in which you have finally realized your goal.

The fact that you are progressively doing something doesn't mean you are a success, it only means that you are following a series of steps in order to reach a goal, that is what the word "progressive" means within that context.

Quote:
If one would try untill the end of his life but not achieve his goal, he can only be content with the knowledge of giving his best
Ironicly, such a person would with his contentment only yield to conformity
Here is the thing, there are people who set themselves impossible goals considering their skills like being a gazilionare by the time they reach 30. Poeple don't need to be gazillionares to achieve success, that would be a horrible goal which very few can reach given their skills and talents. Heck you can set yourself a goal of being an Astronaut without realizing you must like math, physics and what not to reach that goal!

A couple who set their minds towards saving money to ultimately put their children through college achieve success once their children graduate (can we link happiness to this achievement? sure! I can't imagine a couple that wouldn't feel happy seeing this dream realized), is that an impossible goal? No! Is it hard to achieve? You bet it is! Those who see themselves unable to save money because "there is nothing guaranteed in life" can still reach their ultimate goal of putting their children through college by sending them to a community college. Is that less of an accomplishment? If you see it with negative eyes you can call this second example an utter failure regardless of the fact that they achieved their ultimate goal despite all the hoops and bounds that life put them through.

If someone fails at something, the easiest way to avoid delusional happiness is to be realist and acknowledge that something went wrong, grab pen and paper and reformulate their goals based on a more realistic scenario

I understand your POV that sometimes life can be cruel and in very few cases some people may fail at everything they do (those are extremely rare cases) but even if that is their situation by thinking negatively they are just that much closer to hijacking themselves out of existence. What do you think goes through the mind of someone who is considering suicide? Positive thoughts?

^ The suicide example is rather harsh but I put it there to prove a point, you go nowhere by reinforcing negative thoughts. Most women out there (or at least all of the ones that I have met) would leave me without a second thought if I was a bundle of negativity, if I thought nothing was guaranteed in life and therefore setting myself goals and reaching those goals step by step (aka progressively) is an utter delusion. That would only be the fruit I would reap based on my negative thinking, this not only applies to relationships but to pretty much everything else you do.

All in all, I wish you good luck reaching your goals or becoming happy with that cloud of negativity over your head. Personally I think all the fuzz was just a way to win an discussion based on a certain level of pride without much of an argument to back things up...which is why you debunked yourself from the start. Hopefully that is the case and NOT that you are an utterly negative person because I really don't see how things can be explained any better.

Last edited by CuXe; 2010-05-29 at 08:13.
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Old 2010-05-29, 11:03   Link #24
Kafriel
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Quote:
Quote me on ONE PERSON who has reached success by thinking as negatively as you are right now.
I've done that on occasion...anyway, on with the discussion part:
I read the text, it certainly holds some truth and can be a helpful tool to people with low self-esteem or no confidence. On the other hand, everyone who doesn't follow this, is treated as a failure, which can be offensive towards others as well as false. I'll say, it is a matter of opinion; if I decide to roam the land, alone poor and with no particular place to go, I will be deemed a failure, but in fact what if that was what I always wanted to do? What if I wanted to escape the pressure of having goals and just live my life wandering the world? It would be a success in my eyes.
Another thing to note is that the Strangest Secret can be potentially dangerous: many people dream of a better job, a better house, a better physical appearance, a better partner, etc. You can't have it all just by thinking you can do it...and when things don't go the way people want them to, their negativity will definitely increase many times, at which point the opposite happens, they lose their patience and enter a state of self-loathing, at which point they have no will to succeed anymore. All because they focused too hard on a single goal and put their hopes up, treat it as something that is bound to happen (by throwing off their fear and negative emotions), and yet if they had considered the possibility of failure, they wouldn't have taken its loss so hard.


Tl;dr : It's great but should only be used by people of considerable patience and willpower...although they wouldn't need it as much.
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Old 2010-05-29, 16:18   Link #25
CuXe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
I've done that on occasion...anyway, on with the discussion part:
You mean you have actually succeeded at something be thinking in a negative way? If so, allow me to say, thats a first for me. Sort of like saying to yourself you can't do something and in a contradictory way you go out and do it, proving that frame of mind wrong? Thats a little mind boggling actually (no pun or sarcasm intended)

Quote:
I read the text, it certainly holds some truth and can be a helpful tool to people with low self-esteem or no confidence.
Agreed.


Quote:
On the other hand, everyone who doesn't follow this, is treated as a failure, which can be offensive towards others as well as false.
I see your point but as said later in the video, success is not exclusively defined by a person's level of wealth, the financial example is only given because most people link success to wealth. There was also the example of successful parenting which has nothing to do with money. SO, I agree that if the one and only pretense of the video was to say that you can only achieve success by financial standards I would have been one of the first people to jump the gun.

Quote:
I'll say, it is a matter of opinion; if I decide to roam the land, alone poor and with no particular place to go, I will be deemed a failure, but in fact what if that was what I always wanted to do? What if I wanted to escape the pressure of having goals and just live my life wandering the world? It would be a success in my eyes
.

INDEED, you see a goal doesn't have to be something overly complex, anyone can turn a simple unspoken decision into a goal, was there any pressure behind changing those priorities? Nope. If someone chooses (unspoken goal there), follows and achieves the path towards living a nomadic life in order to escape the pressures of complex goals, which are often associated with complex societies, then that in itself is a success.

Just like it was a success for the cave man to go out every day, hunt and come back alive, that was his unspoken goal everyday, so you see a goal doesn't have to be something overly complex (again no pun or sarcasm intended here)

Quote:
Another thing to note is that the Strangest Secret can be potentially dangerous: many people dream of a better job, a better house, a better physical appearance, a better partner, etc. You can't have it all just by thinking you can do it...
Absolutely agree and let me explain why. There are only 2 people that I know off who would think they can have it all in a serious frame of mind:

1. Greed from Full metal alchemist (I've watched that series so long I think I know him lol)
2. MYSELF (when I was a child, seriously I thought I could have it all)

But here is the thing, when people reach a certain level of maturity we all realize that it is a child's dream to think that we can have it all. I have to agree that using this video following that frame of mind would indeed lead to undesirable results. So it is imperative to have a certain level of maturity and realism towards how things work because as you correctly stated no one can "have it all" just by thinking "he could have it all" - Again, as a child I did think that way... I also thought I could fly and visit Jupiter if I set my mind to it but that was a highly improbable goal which was formulated because of my level of immaturity at the time, can't blame me tho... I was just a kid
I know a certain person will take this last line and turn it into a "and here is where the argument falls" kind of thing so I have to point out... as a Kid I set my mind to "impossible things" and I thought I could achieve them if I only set my mind to it regardless of how impossible things might have been... I have to stress the use of the words "impossible and child/kid" we can't apply the same circumstance to a instance where a mature person would be involved in the goal setting part because it is assumed that by reaching a certain level of maturity someone would know that flying and visiting Jupiter is highly improbable. - This paragraph wasn't meant for you Kaf. although if you want to comment on it you are free to do so.
Quote:
and when things don't go the way people want them to, their negativity will definitely increase many times, at which point the opposite happens, they lose their patience and enter a state of self-loathing, at which point they have no will to succeed anymore.
Indeed and this is the result of thinking someone can "have it all" with which I concur, it would be rather immature. Luckily thats not what the video is about, unless I missed the "you can have it all" part.

Quote:
All because they focused too hard on a single goal and put their hopes up, treat it as something that is bound to happen (by throwing off their fear and negative emotions), and yet if they had considered the possibility of failure, they wouldn't have taken its loss so hard.
Mmmm I thought we were going with the premises that someone can "have it all" - But yeah, failure just like success are both parts of our lives, we all lose some and win some, we just have to hope that we win more than we lose, if that is not the case focusing on less (but more important) wins would be the way to go.

How someone takes and accepts defeat is something learned as a child, you just have to hope that by the time someone reaches maturity they would know how to handle failure and defeat by moving on and setting more attainable goals to themselves.

That just brings me back to the impossible goal setting part. Someone can set his mind to become an astronaut but if that person doesn't like physics, math, etc the hard reality is that this person is going to fail at that goal. Why? Lack of planning and consideration about the fact that he/she needed to understand all the factors that reaching that goal entailed. Should he/she take it very hard on himself that he didn't think that being an astronaut would require such high level of knowledge about science?

That same person would have succeeded in something like being a social worker or being a school teacher which would have been a far more attainable goal based on his/her skills. That is just to say that some people have an inclination for science while others might be more social, everyone has a forte, we just have to find what that forte is and aim those skills towards an achievable goal.

But just like the example you gave above, a goal doesn't even have to be something as complex as being an astronaut, it could be something as simple as choosing to live a nomadic life, roaming the land because thats what you set your mind to. That is a good example of a very attainable goal.

Quote:
Tl;dr : It's great but should only be used by people of considerable patience and willpower...although they wouldn't need it as much.
Sure, however those with a lesser degree of willpower can set themselves much easier goals and still have a taste of success because no matter how simple or complex a goal may be, achieving that goal is what matters in the end right? Just like a win is a win regardless of the path taken.

Last edited by CuXe; 2010-05-29 at 19:00.
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Old 2010-05-30, 01:14   Link #26
Kafriel
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Quote:
You mean you have actually succeeded at something be thinking in a negative way? If so, allow me to say, thats a first for me. Sort of like saying to yourself you can't do something and in a contradictory way you go out and do it, proving that frame of mind wrong? Thats a little mind boggling actually (no pun or sarcasm intended)
Not like that, but using the mindset of failure ->punishment, for example if I don't study I'll fail the class and then I'll stay behind a year. This kind of thinking is negative, since you focus on what happens if you fail, but the extra stress helped me get out of my daily routine and actually sit down and study.
Quote:
as a Kid I set my mind to "impossible things" and I thought I could achieve them if I only set my mind to it regardless of how impossible things might have been... I have to stress the use of the words "impossible and child/kid" we can't apply the same circumstance to a instance where a mature person would be involved in the goal setting part because it is assumed that by reaching a certain level of maturity someone would know that flying and visiting Jupiter is highly improbable.
One would argue that nothing is impossible...for example, as a kid I may have wanted to live forever, and dedicated my life in genetic engineering, and in the 50 years of research I discovered all sorts of medicine to expand my lifespan by an extra 80 years. Although, while not impossible, these kinds of goals hold little meaning, because of the time you need to spend in order to achieve them :P
Quote:
Luckily thats not what the video is about, unless I missed the "you can have it all" part.
You're right about that, I just wanted to point it out, since people are greedy by nature.
Quote:
Someone can set his mind to become an astronaut but if that person doesn't like physics, math, etc the hard reality is that this person is going to fail at that goal. Why? Lack of planning and consideration about the fact that he/she needed to understand all the factors that reaching that goal entailed. Should he/she take it very hard on himself that he didn't think that being an astronaut would require such high level of knowledge about science?
This is a very good example of what separates "success" from "failure". If someone wanted to be an astronaut and nothing else, they would study up even if it was hard, moving past their obstacles one at a time. The problem here would be if he didn't get chosen as one after all his hard work because of a corrupt society, because it is not something he can control (unlike his grades), unless he decided to become president first, but that procedure would set his goal pretty far away, if not kill it as a whole.
Quote:
Sure, however those with a lesser degree of willpower can set themselves much easier goals and still have a taste of success because no matter how simple or complex a goal may be, achieving that goal is what matters in the end right? Just like a win is a win regardless of the path taken.
Indeed, this is where our topic becomes most useful
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Old 2010-05-30, 02:09   Link #27
CuXe
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^ Thanks for clarifying that first statement, I thought you had achieved success based on pure negative thinking however as you said you "incentivized" yourself by thinking of the "consequences" failing at something would bring about which is something most of us experience earlier in our lives when we have to pass a test and don't want to get scolded by our parents because of failure.

I wouldn't call that negative thinking but rather a consequentialist mindset towards the effects of an action which in itself is a very positive thing because it shows that you considered the effects of your actions (or the effects inaction would bring about)

At any rate, I see the logic behind each and every one of your statements and I believe it would be safe to say we have reached several points of congruence about this topic from a composed and mature POV
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Old 2010-05-30, 07:49   Link #28
NightbatŪ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
This is a very good example of what separates "success" from "failure". If someone wanted to be an astronaut and nothing else, they would study up even if it was hard, moving past their obstacles one at a time. The problem here would be if he didn't get chosen as one after all his hard work because of a corrupt society, because it is not something he can control (unlike his grades)
This is what I've been pointing at

there are only so many factors you can control, too many outside variables in life
you can try and win [insert swimsuit model's name here] heart, but chances are bigger you'll get a restrainingorder on your ass


Quote:
Solon met with Croesus and gave the Lydian king advice, which however Croesus failed to appreciate until it was too late. Croesus had considered himself to be the happiest man alive and Solon had advised him, "Count no man happy until he be dead", because at any minute, fortune might turn on even the happiest man and make his life miserable. It was not until after he had lost his kingdom to Cyrus, the Persian, that Croesus acknowledged the wisdom of Solon's advice
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Old 2010-05-30, 08:41   Link #29
CuXe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightbatŪ View Post
This is what I've been pointing at

there are only so many factors you can control, too many outside variables in life
you can try and win [insert swimsuit model's name here] heart, but chances are bigger you'll get a restrainingorder on your ass
Nightbat, when people grow up they are expected to reach a certain level of maturity. As a child I thought I could fly, visit Jupiter heck I even thought I could attain super powers if only I set my mind to it but here is where men set themselves apart from children.

The "Astronaut paragraph" you quoted and "pointed out" illustrates a very, VERY difficult goal to achieve for most people. Does this goal have several variables which you cannot control? YES! ... Would a mature person set himself a goal like that knowing that his skill level, knowledge and "connections" within the social circles required to achieve this goal are less than optimal? I doubt it! I know I wouldn't run for senator if I was very shy and had no connections boot!

Mature individuals know how to set achievable goals for themselves within the realm of reality, considering their skills and resources. Once I grew up I knew that setting myself a goal such as visiting Jupiter was extremely far fetched and when I think about it, I recall that former self with a certain level of amusement, knowing how immature and far fetched the goals I had as a child were. But you are not interested in this story, lets get back to "conquering the heart of a celebrity"

You can argue that wining the heart of a celebrity is a lot easier than reaching a star (celestial object) however let me tell you why that goal is also extremely hard to achieve.... and I know what I am talking about because after all, I live in Hollywood (not bragging... << and I am dead serious about this statement)

Following your example.... winning [insert swimsuit model's name here] heart is a rather far-fetched goal to set for yourself if you (or the hypothetical person in this case) have stalking tendencies and don't have the least bit of understanding about how to approach a celebrity, so you are correct when you say (and I quote) you would get a restraining order on your ass.

But here is a rather condensed and quick series of steps a person would have to follow should he set himself a goal of winning the heart of someone famous:

Quote:
1. Find a way to approach this famous model without coming across as a stalker
2. Find a way to differentiate yourself from the rest and find things you both have in common.
3. Beat the media at their game (yeah, in the high life .. the media can be a huge obstacle when it comes to relationships as they are constantly scrutinizing your life and looking for that next story regardless of how badly they can screw w your life)
4. Find a way to handle paparazzi
5. Find a way to fit in with with her social circles.
6. Find a way to improve your finances so that you don't come across as someone who just wants to be with her for her money (and/or fame)
I am sure you can find 1000+ more steps to cram in there but the point I am trying to make is that achieving THIS particular goal, is highly HIGHLY improbable for most people and I dare say... setting yourself a goal like that would be very immature if you don't already have the resources to accomplish it.

I am going to confess something right here and now, I have a thing for Claire Danes. But I would be too much of a child to think that I could overthrow her fiancé by completely blowing his personality out of the water, winning her heart, reaching the same financial and social standing he currently enjoys and living happily ever after. Do you see how highly improbable that is? Do you think a mature person would set himself a goal like that if he didn't already have the resources to achieve it?
As I recall there was a movie which illustrated this immature (to avoid saying ignorant) point of view, It was called BORAT. This movie was amusing in several levels because the actor portrayed a person who was rather ignorant of the modus vivendi of the people who lived in a different country.

His goal of wining Pam Anderson's heart (and have a sexy time) was highly immature and that is why this scene was so amusing because he thought of Pam as someone gorgeous and pure which is a thought that disregards how fame, money and bad influences can turn people into individuals that are hard to cope with. All that is to say that people find amusement in actors who bring highly improbable situations to life.
To reinforce my point Nightbat, as an adult you need to set yourself realistic and achievable goals, goals that are within your grasp considering your skills and resources because otherwise you could live an unhappy life due to the fact that you didn't accomplish those unreachable goals you set for yourself.
When the person in the video says that you can achieve most goals if you only set your mind to it, it is assumed that people listening to this motivational piece are composed and mature individuals who won't misinterpret the material by thinking that the core message also entails that "if you set your mind" to find a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow you most certainly will.
Is it impossible to win the heart of that celebrity you are so fond of? Nope it is most certainly NOT impossible! but you better believe it will not be a stroll in the park either given the level of competition and the number of variables this goal entails. And after all, why would you go for a celebrity when there are so many beautiful and available women out there? (lol I know, I know .. that was just your way to provide an example)

More examples of highly improbable, childish (but very amusing) goals are:

- Becoming a Real Estate magnate if you are extremely shy.
- Finding a pink Ponny (without using photoshop LOL)
- Making out with Sarah Palin in live TV (lol)
- Winning an Olympic gold medal regardless of whether or not I had any talent.
- Becoming irresistible to every single woman in the world without exception.
- Becoming a hell of a hacker even if I you are not interested in computers at all.
- Finding a message in a bottle by waiting countless days at the beach.
- Beating John Stewart or Stephen Colbert at their own game.
- Having a child with Kallen (hot chick from Code Geass)
- ETC, Etc, etc....

In all seriousness tho, I hope you get the message because with 32 years of age one would hope that by now...you know better than to set childish/unattainable goals for yourself.

Last edited by CuXe; 2010-05-30 at 09:59.
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Old 2010-05-30, 11:54   Link #30
NightbatŪ
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Neverlands
Age: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuXe View Post
To reinforce my point Nightbat, as an adult you need to set yourself realistic and achievable goals, goals that are within your grasp considering your skills and resources because otherwise you could live an unhappy life due to the fact that you didn't accomplish those unreachable goals you set for yourself.


In all seriousness tho, I hope you get the message because with 32 years of age one would hope that by now...you know better than to set childish/unattainable goals for yourself.
You on the other hand fail to grasp that realistic and achievable goals can be an impossible quest
The "Model" was an extreme example, now turn that into "just landing a job to bring food on the table"



Yup I'm 32, and for 32 years, Ive seen your Motivational speech at work:
Clear goals, positive attitudes, hard work and commitment
I've seen it to succeed, and also blow up in people's faces

It's as valuable as the weatherman saying "It's gonna rain,... or not"
(in which case smart people grab an umbrella 'just in case' instead of putting on a bikini)


Just because I have no scientific approach doesn't mean I think about these things as if I am child
I'm certainly not as naive as one
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Old 2010-05-30, 13:06   Link #31
Kafriel
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Athens (GMT+2)
Age: 25
Quote:
- Finding a message in a bottle by waiting countless days at the beach.
...check! Afterwards I took a blank sheet, wrote a treasure map, processed the paper to a crumbling yellow form and put it in a bottle so that someone else could achieve this goal
Quote:
realistic and achievable goals can be an impossible quest
I was assigned the impossible task of estimating a two - storey building in a week! Had to draw it in AutoCAD, count lines, check spots, get proper fuses, measure the cables, select and measure pipes, draw the electric boards and estimate how much it would cost. I'm still working on it, and it's due Tuesday, but I think I can make it in time...I've spent most of this week doing just that, so I won't rest until it's done. After setting it as my first priority, I skipped gaming, working out and gardening, but in return I got a more-than-half finished project at my hands.
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Old 2010-05-30, 13:34   Link #32
NightbatŪ
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Neverlands
Age: 37
Hypothetical:
and on monday, you suffer a burnout,... what then?
-You fail to meet the deadline
-You get fired because of that

What happened to you hard work and positive attitude then?
acccording to the PoV you ambitiously and in good spirit contributed to your effort so you ARE succesful,... right?
-

I'm not here saying everyone should sit on their ass because hard work never pays off
I'm not saying you should never try to achieve a goal

But that speech in the opening post is just too shallow, life isn't that bloody easy that you can just try and succeed
Most people live in conformity because they have tried but didn't succeed
They live in conformity because they have to, they have families to feed, bills to pay, they can't go on ambitious adventures anymore
succeeding has as much to do with ambition and effort as it has to do with luck
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Old 2010-05-30, 18:57   Link #33
CuXe
Loving Romeo X Juliet
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: City of Angels
THIS statment I have to highlight and put in a virtual frame!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NightbatŪ View Post

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You on the other hand fail to grasp that realistic and achievable goals can be an IMPOSSIBLE quest
The "Model" was an extreme example, now turn that into "just landing a job to bring food on the table"


↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑ ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
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YES! I DO FAIL to grasp it and this is the core of our disagreement because... You don't seem to realize you just contradicted and destroyed your own argument all in one line!! (This is the second time you do this actually) How is an impossible quest realistic and achievable? Perhaps you are also disregarding the definition of realism. If so let me quote merriam webster once again:

Quote:
Realism: concern for fact or reality and rejection of the impractical and visionary.
Impossible: incapable of being or of occurring.
Is conquering the heart of a celebrity a "practical thing to do" for most people? Should I even continue?

Yet you continue to point out why is it that you fail to grasp the message of the video because landing a job or bringing food to the table is something most mature individuals would do, those are realistic goals because they follow the meaning of the word realism; conquering the heart of a celebrity, finding pink ponys and such are most definitively not!

So in other words in your mind:

Quote:
Unrealistic/Impossible goals = Real and achievable goals
If at this point you deny this statement applies to your mindset then please refer to the words that came out of your own mind/keyboard which I put in a virtual frame at the top.
Come one man, the video was intended for every day people with realistic goals, you make it sound like "extreme examples" are in some way shape or form realistic, common and achievable for most people.

Quote:
Yup I'm 32, and for 32 years, Ive seen your Motivational speech at work:
Clear goals, positive attitudes, hard work and commitment
I've seen it to succeed, and also blow up in people's faces
YES! It would blow up in the face of people who fail to understand what a real and achievable goal is considering their skills and resources. Say you wanted to to conquer the heart of Lindsay Lohan (an example) yet you live in the Netherlands, how achievable would that be for you or for most people living on the other side of the world? The trip all in itself would be a huge obstacle for most people, let alone finding a place to stay and jumping through all the hoops and bounds that conquering the heart of a celebrity entails.

Is that a goal a realistic and mature adult would set for himself? Is that goal extremely likely to blow up in his face should this person pursue this ideal? You bet it is!

Quote:
It's as valuable as the weatherman saying "It's gonna rain,... or not"
(in which case smart people grab an umbrella 'just in case' instead of putting on a bikini)
Here you are giving an example completely and utterly out of context and you are also confusing "goals with predictions" Do I really have to go through the dictionary to make my point once again?

Quote:
Just because I have no scientific approach doesn't mean I think about these things as if I am child I'm certainly not as naive as one
I never said that you need a scientific approach to realize a goal because some goals are so simple a 1,2,3 plan would do just fine. I just broke down most of your examples so you can open your eyes and see that very unlikely or extreme ideals are not what realistic adults would set for themselves as goals.

Does that break down make it scientific, I doubt it.

To rest my point:
Quote:
Conquering the heart of a celebrity IS NOT comparable to finding a job and bringing food to the table in a realistic point of view.
One is a realistic goal lots of people achieve daily, the other one is very unlikely to happen.

Quoting KAF and responding to NB POV

Quote:
I was assigned the impossible task of estimating a two - storey building in a week! Had to draw it in AutoCAD, count lines, check spots, get proper fuses, measure the cables, select and measure pipes, draw the electric boards and estimate how much it would cost. I'm still working on it, and it's due Tuesday, but I think I can make it in time...I've spent most of this week doing just that, so I won't rest until it's done. After setting it as my first priority, I skipped gaming, working out and gardening, but in return I got a more-than-half finished project at my hands.
This task would indeed be impossible for me at this very moment because I know zero about AutoCAD, I've seen all the 3D modeling this thing can do but I am completely ignorant as to how to do it.

Would taking on this task be something I would fail at considering my skill level and resources? YES!

Is this something Kaf would fail at considering he knows how to use AutoCAD and has the resources to accomplish this goal? NOPE! It might be very difficult considering the time tables and the level of complexity but if anyone can do it he can... could you do this task? could I do this task?

I believe you took his witty comment literally. Is this goal impossible for him? NOPE!...maybe very difficult to accomplish but not impossible otherwise why would he even bother trying if it was impossible right?..... is it impossible for most people who don't have his knowledge about the topic to achieve this goal and meet his deadline? YES!

I don't see why anyone would set himself such a highly technical taks if the didn't already have the skills and resources to do it or if he didn't wan't to go through college once again, this is not something a realistic individual would do.

Quote:
Hypothetical:
and on monday, you suffer a burnout,... what then?
-You fail to meet the deadline
-You get fired because of that

What happened to you hard work and positive attitude then?
acccording to the PoV you ambitiously and in good spirit contributed to your effort so you ARE succesful,... right?
We need to acknowledge that Kaf ALREADY has what he needs to accomplish this goal unless he decides to wait till the very last minute to start doing his assignment but then again as children we all learn or at least have heard countless times that procrastinating = not good!

Now realistically tho, how many people who are assigned academic tasks like this suffer these hypothetical burnouts? If this was a regular occurrence your example would hold more substance but you are just describing accidents or unlikely situations... how often do accidents/unlikely situations happen to most people? I certainly do hope is not an everyday thing for most cause I tell you if these improbable things would have happened to me all the time I couldn't have possibly graduated from college.

BUT.... SAY that he actually fails this assignment, following your argument he should fall in a million pieces and live in conformity because all his effort, positive attitude and hard work went to waste. Considering this hypothetical scenario is not an everyday occurrence, most college students would pick themselves up and keep at it wouldn't they? Or would you rather call it quits and say "the hell with it all" based on an unlikely and unfortunate circumstance?

You could try to equate unlikely things to things that happen everyday but that procedure will fail each and every time because they these two things are simply not equal just like the number 2 is not the equivalent of the number 4.

Quote:
But that speech in the opening post is just too shallow, life isn't that bloody easy that you can just try and succeed
Most people live in conformity because they have tried but didn't succeed
They live in conformity because they have to, they have families to feed, bills to pay, they can't go on ambitious adventures anymore

succeeding has as much to do with ambition and effort as it has to do with luck
But thats the the point I've been trying to get across to you man, you bring ambitious/unrealistic adventures to this conversation as if they were the equivalent of bringing food to the table and paying the bills.

Is bringing home to the table any less of a goal that going on an ambitions/highly improbably adventure? NO! They are both goals, the difference tho is that one is realistic and achievable to most people and the other is simply wishful thinking.

Are ambition and luck involved in success? Yes, I never said they weren't but the luck factor only becomes relevant if your goals are highly ambitious! ... How much luck do you think the average person needs to have in order to accomplish a goal such as bringing food to the table? Not much! they just need to be alive and willing to work so as you see luck is always a positive factor but it becomes highly important when you set highly ambitious goals for yourself, otherwise you don't need much of it.

The goal of the video tho is to encourage people not to live in conformity and aspire to better themselves, does it necessarily have to be anything related to their finances? NO! I think the video made that plenty clear... a mother can aspire to become the best mother she can possibly be! Is she falling in conformity just because her finances are less than perfect? If we think like that way, wouldn't we be disregarding the fact (yes, this is an assertion of fact) that a person's life encompasses a lot more than just financial situations?

Last edited by CuXe; 2010-05-31 at 01:23.
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Old 2010-05-30, 19:20   Link #34
Sugetsu
Kurumada's lost child
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Awesome! I never expected the subject of spirituality to be discussed in this forums. I feel compelled to contribute to it so here is nice gift from me to all of you who are reading this thread. If you follow it, it will change your life for the better.

Just watch the short clips, you can also download the audio book for free. It is truly life changing. In my opinion everyone should hear this in school.

Here is a sample:



http://awareness.tk/
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Old 2010-05-30, 19:37   Link #35
CuXe
Loving Romeo X Juliet
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: City of Angels
^ Thank you for your contribution Sugetsu, that is material that can be very valuable and useful for people with a spiritual frame of mind indeed.

Last edited by CuXe; 2010-05-30 at 19:52.
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Old 2010-05-31, 00:51   Link #36
Kafriel
Senior Guest
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Athens (GMT+2)
Age: 25
Quote:
Hypothetical:
and on monday, you suffer a burnout,... what then?
-You fail to meet the deadline
-You get fired because of that
What happened to you hard work and positive attitude then?
acccording to the PoV you ambitiously and in good spirit contributed to your effort so you ARE succesful... right?
This is actually an essay for a course at my university, even if I don't make it in time, I won't be flunked if I do well on the final test, although this essay counts for at least 40% of my grade, and it's a course of increased gravity. Back to the burnout, people can get an extension in certain cases, but I'll choose the worst-case scenario of falling into a dispute with the lab team, which will grant me a failure and lots of complaining to the principal from my part. I can go as far as taking them to court and doubt their ability, but I think I will have wasted enough of my time on the matter already. Still, I will have gained experience and next time I'll be able to do it much faster, giving people a lot less room to doubt me (and since the essay's always the same, I'd have it prepared over summer, just in case).
Assuming this was a project for a customer at work, we work in teams and can't be fired, since only we know the wiring of the house, so if they hire someone else they'd have to start all over from scratch.
Assuming there is room for sacking in another profession I could have followed, things could be very bad indeed, to the point of scarring my rep bad enough that nobody else would ever hire me again in the continent. In that case, I'd change profession. It's amazing how many things one man can do...farming, selling, advertising, bodyguarding/security, working at a communications center, etc.
Quote:
Most people live in conformity because they have tried but didn't succeed
You don't die if you fail...you could always try again, and if your situation doesn't allow you to follow your old ambitions (for example, divorced with two sons and working at a bar), think of them as obstacles to overcome before you can start over. Who knows, maybe you'd actually enjoy working at a bar, making that choice a successful move...
To close my post, I also want to say this: you're never too old to try again. I see people older than my professors (who are in their mid-sixties), with a three-digit pass (mine's at 5 digits, i.e.~35000 people have enrolled since then) taking courses and jotting down notes, because they need a certificate to expand their business.
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Old 2010-05-31, 01:16   Link #37
CuXe
Loving Romeo X Juliet
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: City of Angels
^ Brilliant train of thought .....btw are you majoring in Architecture or in an engineering-related field?
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Old 2010-05-31, 01:55   Link #38
Kafriel
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Athens (GMT+2)
Age: 25
Electrical engineering, since there's always a place to work at, and I get to define the amount of money I get. My personal view of success involves being my own boss, or at least have enough independence so that it doesn't go wrong...unless I do something really stupid
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Old 2010-05-31, 12:11   Link #39
NightbatŪ
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Age: 37
Cuxe, you're the one that has no idea of reality whatsoever

Why?
Because some people set impossible goals and succeed, some set simple goals and fail, sometimes by own merit, sometimes not
Sometime people do a job they hate, half hearted and end up on the top, others do it with pasion, are commited and positive and end in the gutter
Sometimes you start what seems a simple task to find out later it has become impossible, or you start something impossible that turns out to be easy as pie





You know what happens to men between 25 and 65? LIFE!

and even you agreed life has no guarantees, yet your "amazing secret" NEVER takes that into account
It never takes in account '(bad) luck'
because it would undermine the entire message it tries to feed you, so it simply ignores it
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Old 2010-05-31, 12:33   Link #40
Kafriel
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Join Date: Jan 2009
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Quote:
Sometime people do a job they hate, half hearted and end up on the top, others do it with pasion, are committed and positive and end in the gutter
Those who got to the top half-hearted will take a hard fall down to the gutter. The struggle to keep your position as #1 is fierce and never ending. On the other hand, when you can't go any lower, there's only one way left to go - up. In the end, it's all a matter of perspective. The concept at hand focuses on how you look at life: if you only think about the bad things that have happened or could probably happen, then yeah, life's a bitch, but you got a house, you got clothes, you got a nation, and there's a lot of people who got none of the above. So, do you take the opportunities that appear before you while aiming high, or do you try to avoid life because of the bad stuff that tags along with it?
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