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Old 2010-05-31, 12:46   Link #41
felix
sleepyhead
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
This message is like the mentality on forums. Everywhere I look people are trying to point the finger at some absolute truth. Every thread I go someone has to be totally wrong, and another totally right. Unfortunately reality is harsh. In reality there are many more times when two sides arguing are both wrong and confused. Of course who's going to accept that kind of compromise? At best you'll see people come to some truce where they both end up right.

Getting back to the topic, the wording is fitting but just like you can't say every selfless action will do good, you can't guarantee this will suddenly solve all problems. Its not like this is the first time we've heard such tales of wonder, yesterday it was religion people were preaching as the absolute truth. What's the difference, besides this one being more appealing today?

Besides, committing to something is nice and all, but over-committing as some seem to read it will just lead to anti-social behavior. If you want examples look no further then the examples in the video. They didn't exactly decided they want to do it and it got done.
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Old 2010-05-31, 15:24   Link #42
Kafriel
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Quote:
What's the difference, besides this one being more appealing today?
You do this for yourself, and nobody's preaching about it. Oh, and it actually works most of the time I mainly support this, because I've been doing it long before I ran into this thread, and at least for me it always made my school life a lot easier, back when I was younger and decisions were a lot harder to make.
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Old 2010-05-31, 18:20   Link #43
CuXe
Loving Romeo X Juliet
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightbatŪ View Post
Cuxe, you're the one that has no idea of reality whatsoever

Why?
Because some people set impossible goals and succeed, some set simple goals and fail, sometimes by own merit, sometimes not
The moment you start using the words by what what they actually mean then we will concur.

People don't set IMPOSSIBLE goals for themselves and achieve them because they word itself implies they are IMPOSSIBLE.

People set themselves EXTREMELY HARD goals and reach them based on their skills and resources, now THAT is a statement I could get behind but the second you imply something is impossible then that is it, it is IMPOSSIBLE it can NOT be done by definition.

Now here is a very interesting thing to understand, goals that are extremely hard to accomplish and some may even say "impossible" for most people may not be impossible for a particular individual which is why I've been referring to "skills and resources" all along.

Take Einstein, how many people in the world and throughout the last few centuries do you think have had the mental caliber this one person had? You can literally count them with your fingers! Now here is where I back my statement; do you think accomplishing the goals Einstein accomplished is something that could have be done by most people at the time? sorry that is impossible because it took a GENIUS to come up with such an interesting way to try to understand how things in the universe worked.
So here is where you may say I am missusing the word IMPOSSIBLE. The person who set this goal for himself "EINSTEIN" knew that his goals were NOT impossible to achieve given that he had the mental skills and resources he needed at his disposal.

Assign the same goals to other people at the time and they would all say it was impossible because they simply lacked the "genius" (mental skills and resources) Einstein had, it literally took another genius to get on par with his train of thought at the time. You may say well nowadays many college kids understand his theories, YEAH nowadays! after plenty of time has passed so that mathematicians and scientist could break down his train of thought into comprehensible parts so that most people could understand. Nowadays we have it easy because all the knowledge that was hard to acquire years or centuries ago is being given to us all chewed up already we only have to swallow that knowledge!

Let me remind you what his accomplishments were:

- Law that defined the constant speed of light
- Mass-energy equivalence
- Explanation about the energy of photons
- Relativity

We these goals IMPOSSIBLE for him? NO! They were extremely difficult but NOT impossible.
This brings me back to what I've been saying all along, you can set for yourself an extremely HARD goal for yourself to achieve but you KNOW it is NOT impossible for you.


Quote:
Sometime people do a job they hate, half hearted and end up on the top, others do it with pasion, are commited and positive and end in the gutter
EXACTLY, sometimes as in "rarely" as in "it doesn't occur very often" as in "accidentally" - you bring these statements is if they happened all the time and were an everyday occurrence. Most people who plan ahead and work hard towards a goal end up achieving that goal, notice that I said "most people" and not 100% or All people because we have to account for "exceptions or special circumstances" that may keep certain individuals from reaching that goal.

Quote:
Sometimes you start what seems a simple task to find out later it has become impossible, or you start something impossible that turns out to be easy as pie

SORRY but here we see again that you are disregarding the definition of the word impossible once again, if something is impossible it CAN NOT possibly be achieved. Saying that something IMPOSSIBLE turns out to be easy as pie is a total and complete fallacy.


Quote:
You know what happens to men between 25 and 65? LIFE!
EXACTLY and yet as you say and I quote:

Quote:
Most people live in conformity because they have tried but didn't succeed
If LIFE happens to people between 25-65 aren't you suggesting that if people fail at something that is IT for them? What happens to the whole "LIFE HAPPENS" idea? Did you throw that away just like the definition of the word "impossible?"

I have to get behind KAF's statement which I quote:

Quote:
You don't die if you fail...you could always try again
Now that is a train of thought I can get behind because as you correctly stated ... between 25-65 LIFE happens to most people.

Quote:
and even you agreed life has no guarantees, yet your "amazing secret" NEVER takes that into account
It never takes in account '(bad) luck'
because it would undermine the entire message it tries to feed you, so it simply ignores it
Incredible, we have bounced from delusions, to realism, to impossibilities and yet I see myself forced to bring up the definition of "luck" to make yet another point.

Quote:
Definition of LUCK (good or bad):

Def 1:
Luck or fortuity is good or bad fortune in life caused by accident or chance, and attributed by some to reasons of faith or superstition, which happens beyond a person's control.
Def 2:
events that are beyond control and seem subject to chance; fortune
Def 3:
Luck is a way of understanding a personal chance event. Luck has three aspects which make it distinct from chance or probability. Luck can be good or bad, happens by accident or chance, applies to a person.
As you see the definition doesn't infer that bad luck OR "luck" is a constant but rather an unpredictable event (see luck) that happens by accident or chance. If bad luck was in fact a constant no one would be able to achieve their goals and YES the whole argument about goal setting, thinking positively, etc would fall to pieces.

LUCK (good or bad) is not a constant, it is a rare variable (which is why it is not taken into account). By rare variable I mean it doesn't happen all the time. Luck is an improbable scenario that by definition is subject to chance, fortune.
Quote:
Here is yet another instance where you bring an extreme circumstance or rare variable to the table as if it happened all the time, as if it was a constant, in order to discredit the message
MY ADVICE FROM HERE ON OUT:

Quote:
Before you click on "Submit reply" read the message you just wrote and see if the keywords you are using follow the actual definition of the term because I can't keep on wasting time going back and forth quoting the actual meaning of the words from a dictionary. It was amusing at first but now it is getting tiresome.
For those reading this message and the discussions I've had with NightBat

Guys I am in no way, shape or form a Grammar Nazi LOL. However when someone assigns a meaning to a word that is completely different to what is found on the dictionary then we have a problem.

Imagine if I used the term "Anti social" to describe Animesuki as a whole. I would be failing horribly because the word antisocial cannot be used in this assertion since Animesuki doesn't follow anti-social patterns by definition. That is what I am trying to point out. The second someone gives an erroneous meaning to a word and bases his/her argument on this erroneous meaning then all I have to say is "HOUSTON, WE HAVE A PROBLEM"

Last edited by CuXe; 2010-05-31 at 22:15.
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Old 2010-05-31, 18:26   Link #44
CuXe
Loving Romeo X Juliet
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: City of Angels
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
This message is like the mentality on forums. Everywhere I look people are trying to point the finger at some absolute truth.
An absolute truth leaves no space for discussion because it is absolute, that is not the purpose of this thread but I do see your point as the mentality and POVs in this forum vary greatly. But that in itself is not a negative thing, I see that as something very possible because that way we can take the good aspects of a particular POV and we can all learn from each other

Quote:
Getting back to the topic, the wording is fitting but just like you can't say every selfless action will do good, you can't guarantee this will suddenly solve all problems. Its not like this is the first time we've heard such tales of wonder, yesterday it was religion people were preaching as the absolute truth. What's the difference, besides this one being more appealing today?
I believe that Nightbat and I agreed that there are no guarantees in life in a prior discussion. Luckily, the video doesn't make that assertion either, so as you correctly state this way of thinking will not solve all problems.

Now here is one thing where I have to make a distinction as "per your request"

What is the difference between motivational speech and Religious speech?

Quote:
Religion is the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship[1], usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
Religious speech encourages the worship of a deity or promotes the concepts a taught by a particular religion.

Quote:
Motivational Speech is intended to lift up and motivate their audiences.
The difference? In one of them the concept of deity is involved and hence the motivation is to emulate and follow the teachings of that deity.

Quote:
Besides, committing to something is nice and all, but over-committing as some seem to read it will just lead to anti-social behavior.
Well over-committing to something to the point where nothing else matters in life but reaching a particular goal may sometimes lead to antisocial behavior as you point out, altho it is not the rule of thumb because some goals require the involvement of other people in order to be accomplished because remember, no one is an island unto himself.

Quote:
If you want examples look no further then the examples in the video. They didn't exactly decided they want to do it and it got done.
Exactly, but you see that is the beauty of things, I can commit to a financial goal while others may commit to an entirely different goal such as being a better parent. The first example in the video was a financial goal but the latter examples show that success is not entirely dependent on the financial status a person enjoys.

A woman can set herself a goal of being a better mother or putting her children through college and upon completion that in itself is success. Is the motherhood example any less of a success just because it doesn't involve monetary gain or financial success? Personally I think they are both successful because they both accomplished what they set their minds to.

Last edited by CuXe; 2010-05-31 at 19:00.
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Old 2010-05-31, 18:38   Link #45
WanderingKnight
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If you want to gain some insight on why the world is the way it is, and how it can be changed, go read Hegel, Engels, Marx (of course, you need a passing knowledge of Descartes, Hume and Kant)... and then read the current postmodern philosophic trends to understand why people allow this bleak image of society to go on.

Self-help is a scam. They don't want to make you successful, they want your money--that's the way they become successful. What has this guy done that is remarkable in any way other than spewing out a lot of empty rhetoric? Why do you think he puts himself in the position of the teacher, while all his obedient lambs nod and gasp at every interjection he makes? Why doesn't he impart his wisdom for free--he wants to help humanity after all?

There are literally millions of these self-help pseudo-scientist, pseudo-religious assholes who only want your money. I'll tell you why: because people are fucking gullible. If you want to really understand what's going on here, why these assholes take advantage of the anxiety and desperateness of their clients and why they are so enticing and successful at it, as I said before, read up on postmodernism and you'll get a lot of answers.

After all, philosophers can give you a much more profound insight for no price at all -- all they ask is a little brainpower. Nowadays you don't even need to buy the books to read them. If you're looking for "true enlightenment" (whatever that fucking means), it's the only way to go.
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Old 2010-05-31, 19:45   Link #46
yezhanquan
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Well, for the more respectable ones, you can always read their books for free at the library. What's probably more important is that YOU have to decide whether it's useful to you. If it is, APPLY it. Application is really important.
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Old 2010-05-31, 20:29   Link #47
CuXe
Loving Romeo X Juliet
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
If you want to gain some insight on why the world is the way it is, and how it can be changed, go read Hegel, Engels, Marx (of course, you need a passing knowledge of Descartes, Hume and Kant)... and then read the current postmodern philosophic trends to understand why people allow this bleak image of society to go on.
While the purpose of the thread is to motivate, encourage and empower people and NOT to find out the reason as to why the world is the way it is, allow me to derail this thread a bit by following your argument:

I would agree with your statement if there was only ONE image of society but as you can see, there are different kinds of societies throughout the world that follow different schools of thought which is why today we see Socialistic governments, Communist governments, Capitalist governments, etc. So saying that by reading Hegel, Engels, Marx you can gain a higher perspective about why the world is the way it is a one-sided point of view because after all:
Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel > Was one of the creators of German Idealism which is the product of the work by Immanuel Kant, so I would say that the original idealist was Kant. Anyways, Kants work intended to find a point of congruence between philosophical schools of thought in the 18th century; rationalism and empiricism. While this was not his only accomplishment it is one of the things he is better known for.

Friedrich Engels & Marx > Fathers of the Communist theory
While this was not their only work, this is what they are better known for today.

I can see why someone living in a socialist country would be that much closer to thinking that Marx and Engels provided an ideal description of how society SHOULD work but as I've said, there are all sorts of societies in the world today that follow different schools of thought.
Do you want to adopt Engel's and Marx's school of thought as the truth and the way things "should be?" That is your personal decision, just like its my decision not to follow their communist ideals. But as I mentioned above, that is not relevant to this thread.
Quote:
Self-help is a scam. They don't want to make you successful, they want your money--that's the way they become successful. What has this guy done that is remarkable in any way other than spewing out a lot of empty rhetoric? Why do you think he puts himself in the position of the teacher, while all his obedient lambs nod and gasp at every interjection he makes? Why doesn't he impart his wisdom for free--he wants to help humanity after all?
#1 No one works for FREE. Why can't a Doctor impart his wisdom by teaching his knowledge for free or by opening a royalty free practice? Should I elaborate any further?

#2 I would agree that self help is a scam ONLY if people find themselves in a situation where they lose more than they gain OR if they gained nothing at all. If the knowledge in the original video was repackaged and sold for an exhorbitant sum of money such as 100K dollars, pesos, etc I would agree that such practice is a scam BUT since that is NOT what is going on with this motivational material we can hardly apply the term scam to this instance right? After all this video is FREE for all on the internet.

#3 People who have certain knowledge will always come across as teachers or would you rather prefer to have someone with no knowledge as a teacher? It is up to the listener to decide what to do with the information given.

If you are referring to "OTHER" motivational speakers who rip people off by selling their stuff for exhorbitant sums of money then thats another matter.

Quote:
Furthermore... Definition of scam: a fraudulent business scheme
You can call other motivational speakers in your country or throughout the world huge scammers but as long as they do not incur in a "fraudulent scheme" the use of the word scam is incorrect.

Examples of Scams/Fraud:

- Ponzi schemes
- 419 scam
- Lotery scams
- Charging exhorbitant sums of money for the knowledge discussed in this thread, or better yet selling this video which is publicly available on the web.
- ETC, Etc, etc.

Why is motivational speech so popular? Well unlike negative thinking, positive thinking does get you somewhere. Now, we can't mistake "motivational speech" for sales speech, there is a difference one is intended to motivate people and the other one is intended to close a sale.

Quote:
There are literally millions of these self-help pseudo-scientist, pseudo-religious assholes who only want your money.
Just like there are millions of doctors who charge an eye and a leg for their knowledge and application of it right?

Quote:
I'll tell you why: because people are fucking gullible. If you want to really understand what's going on here, why these assholes take advantage of the anxiety and desperateness of their clients and why they are so enticing and successful at it, as I said before, read up on postmodernism and you'll get a lot of answers.
★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★ ★★★★★★★★★

Now I don't know where your rage comes from because the purpose of the source material was to encourage people to reach their goals and even tho there have been disagreements and different POVs throught this thread calling anyone an asshole is way out of line.

So allow me to stop you right here and now. The use of derogative terms to make a point is absolutely unnecessary and uncalled for. You can make your point without the use of the words "fucking" or "assholes" can you?

Despite the disagreements I've had with NightBat I WOULD MOST DEFINITIVELY NOT call him an asshole because he is entitled to his opinion as I am, Just like I wouldn't call any book writer or content producer a derogative term just because my POV differs from their own but I know for a fact that there are people who use such terms as frequently as drinking water. Even if that is the case and you happen to be one of them, you need to understand that the use of such words is for the most part offensive, regardless of the person you are referring to, so please refrain from using such terms.

As I've said, I know there are POVs that differ from my own and even tho there are disagreements I would like to keep this thread clean of offensive speech because as we have seen this topic has triggered the discussion of a lot more than just motivational ideals but social beliefs, RELIGION, etc. which can lead to highly undesirable results should we decide to throw offensive speech in the mix.

I believe Animesuki Mods would agree with this statement!


★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★ ★★★★★★★★★


Once again, the purpose of this thread is not to involve people in a delusion which would apply if the message was "think of yourself as a successful person regarless of whether or not you have accomplished something" or "you can achieve anything despite how impossible it is" ...but to encourage them to reach everyday goals, is that a scam? I guess it IS right?

But you can quote me all day on postmodernism just like I can quote you all day on post-marxism which are discussions of no relevance to this thread.

Quote:
After all, philosophers can give you a much more profound insight for no price at all -- all they ask is a little brainpower.
Yes! philosophers can give a much deeper insight about their way of thinking and rationale but how many people relate to philosophers of olden times? Perhaps people who have gone through higher education can but as you know very well the lowest-common denominator of societies is always the majority.

Quote:
Nowadays you don't even need to buy the books to read them. If you're looking for "true enlightenment" (whatever that fucking means), it's the only way to go.
Sorry but "true enlightment" is a controvesial idea, one to which is not found in only one place. Why do you think there is such controversy in the middle east? Each party has arrived to "their own true enlightenment" and they are willing to defend their beliefs to the death.

Who are we to say you can only achieve "true enlightening" from philosophers alone? Heck Muslims reached their enlightenment through the teachings of the "Prophet Muhammad from God" - Christians through the teachings of Jesus who is also considered God - Judaism skips prophets or philosophers and takes their "enlightenment" from what they refer to "one true G-d" (Abraham, Isaac, etc are imortant figures but not their source of enlightenment)

Who will tell all these people who have such different beliefs they are wrong?

I for one know better than say that you can ONLY achieve true enlightenment through philosophers.

Last edited by CuXe; 2010-05-31 at 22:08.
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Old 2010-05-31, 20:57   Link #48
CuXe
Loving Romeo X Juliet
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: City of Angels
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
You do this for yourself, and nobody's preaching about it. Oh, and it actually works most of the time I mainly support this, because I've been doing it long before I ran into this thread, and at least for me it always made my school life a lot easier, back when I was younger and decisions were a lot harder to make.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Well, for the more respectable ones, you can always read their books for free at the library. What's probably more important is that YOU have to decide whether it's useful to you. If it is, APPLY it. Application is really important.
Nicely articulated and very constructive thoughts guys, I agree very much with your input

Last edited by CuXe; 2010-05-31 at 21:16.
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Old 2010-05-31, 22:07   Link #49
Sugetsu
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CuXe I think you will like this video very much. "Agreeing and disagreeing has to do with words, concepts and theories, it doesn't have anything to do with truth." "Are you listening for what will confirm what you already know? Or are you listening in order to discover something new."

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Old 2010-05-31, 22:12   Link #50
CuXe
Loving Romeo X Juliet
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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^ I like the context in which you use that last phrase to clarify the first statement . I'll watch to that video and I'll update in a bit.

UPDATE:

AHA! Really good stuff, the first part sounds "as if" renunciation = delusion but he then goes on to explain the circumstance OR Context in which renunciation = delusion in a spiritual way. Throughout the first part we don't really know where his message is going.

Quote:
Some of us get broken up by the harsh realities of life, suffer so much, we wake up. Most people keep bumping again and again into life but they still go on sleep walking they never walk up, tragically. It never occurs to them that there may be another way, it never occurs to them that there may be a better way.
This is good stuff because If I only heard the first part of the video I would have immediately taken out my dictionary lol but there is a deeper message based on the circumstances of life/spirituality and that regardless of disagreement we can listen and learn from each other, which IS where the true nuggets of gold are if you ask me This has a very specific application actually and that is to find a point of congruence where two religious POV differ.

Furthermore, challenging a spiritual pov is futile under most circumstances because from a spiritual standpoint we forfeit the concepts of what may be true or not, possible or impossible and replace that gap with FAITH, so I won't challenge this POV given its spiritual nature. Here is where science and religion seem to part ways, just like applying a concept of truth is controversial amongst religions, for instance ... I wouldn't want to get in the middle of a discussion about which religion or spiritual POV is truthful..... Renouncing ideas and claiming truths is futile based on this circumstance IMHO.

At the end of the video we hear the purpose of the initial logic. He re-enforces throughout the video that renunciation = delusion because the ultimate goal is to open the mind of the listener to the messages being taught in an spiritual context later on; but that doesn't take a way the good points of the message.

Now there is a part where he goes on to say that we must challenge our whole belief system from religious beliefs, political beliefs, social, psychological etc as well. Since his POV is spiritual some will see this as a way to superimpose a religious POV over social and politic POVs which is an immediate point of friction with people who believe in protestant ideals where religious beliefs are separated from social and political; BUT....

Even if we don't like to be taught ideals which have a religious inclination, there are still bits and pieces that are positive/useful that we can take with us.

Last edited by CuXe; 2010-05-31 at 23:15.
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Old 2010-05-31, 22:55   Link #51
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CuXe
Take Einstein, how many people in the world and throughout the last few centuries do you think have had the mental caliber this one person had? You can literally count them with your fingers!
This seems to be a widespread belief but sorry many of the theories were discussed in the scientific circles for some time and scientists aren't particularly good at keeping secrets. He made the discovery but if he didn't somebody else at the time would have either way. I know everyone likes to think he did EVERYTHING, but that's not how researchers work. You have reports, studies and all sorts of papers. I doubt he didn't read any or get inspired from any (particularly with the mentality and practices at the time). Of course the general public will only hear about theories proven right, or god awful mistakes. And hollywood as always takes this twisted reality and amplifies it ten fold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CuXe View Post
The difference? In one of them the concept of deity is involved and hence the motivation is to emulate and follow the teachings of that deity.
If you say so. Doesn't look like that to me. Look what happens if I cross your little definitions there, teehehe:
Quote:
Motivational Speach is the belief in and worship of a principle or principles, or any such system of belief and worship[1], usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
Quote:
Religion is intended to lift up and motivate their audiences.
Well whatever, expressed enough of my washy opinion I think. The main topic doesn't really interest me...
Enjoy yourselves.
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Old 2010-05-31, 23:23   Link #52
CuXe
Loving Romeo X Juliet
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
This seems to be a widespread belief but sorry many of the theories were discussed in the scientific circles for some time and scientists aren't particularly good at keeping secrets. He made the discovery but if he didn't somebody else at the time would have either way. I know everyone likes to think he did EVERYTHING, but that's not how researchers work. You have reports, studies and all sorts of papers. I doubt he didn't read any or get inspired from any (particularly with the mentality and practices at the time). Of course the general public will only hear about theories proven right, or god awful mistakes. And hollywood as always takes this twisted reality and amplifies it ten fold...
Agreed for the most part. The possibility that there were people who built up on the initial ideals doesn't take away from his remarkable train of thought or does it?

Quote:
If you say so. Doesn't look like that to me. Look what happens if I cross your little definitions there, teehehe:


Well whatever, expressed enough of my washy opinion I think. The main topic doesn't really interest me...
Enjoy yourselves.
Crossing definitions is very amusing actually... here allow me to cross 2 more for my own amusement:

Male: Of, relating to, or designating the sex that has organs to produce spermatozoa for fertilizing ova.
Female: Of or denoting the sex that produces ova or bears young

Now lets see what happens when I cross these little definitions:

Male: Of or denoting the sex that produces ova or bears young
Female: Of, relating to, or designating the sex that has organs to produce spermatozoa for fertilizing ova.

Amusing indeed
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Old 2010-05-31, 23:57   Link #53
Infoceptor
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Thumbs up

Didn't read through this entire thread, but for what it's worth, i enjoyed the video. Thanks.
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