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View Poll Results: Angel Beats! - Episode 9 Rating
Perfect 10 131 64.53%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 41 20.20%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 21 10.34%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 2.46%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 1.48%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.49%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.49%
Voters: 203. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2010-06-03, 11:10   Link #341
Ice Block
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Yes but as i already pointed out, Hinata WAS going to carry it out. It was only an external factor that got in the way. The difference between wanting to do it and carrying it out is an internal factor. In fact you just pointed it out now by saying "unless he is not capable of doing so".
People seem to be forgetting one important scene from that episode:

Hinata was clearly denying his disappearance -- he didn't want to go yet (and he was even slightly nervous about it), so the assumption that he got caught up in the moment pretty much holds true. And, there is also no guarantee that he would have had actually disappeared if Yui hadn't interfered.
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Old 2010-06-03, 11:35   Link #342
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Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
People seem to be forgetting one important scene from that episode:

Hinata was clearly denying his disappearance -- he didn't want to go yet (and he was even slightly nervous about it), so the assumption that he got caught up in the moment pretty much holds true. And, there is also no guarantee that he would have had actually disappeared if Yui hadn't interfered.
Well yeah...

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Yeah that's pretty much what i was gonna say. Ahn Minh says that their 'caught in the moment' doesn't really count as what they really think. That may be true in real life but that's not what the tone of the show is suggesting. And what the tone of show is suggesting is what we should use as indicators to characters motivations, rather than our own beliefs.
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
And I think that's exactly what Iwasawa's case was implying. Lot's of exposition are given as 'just one case'. But it's still exposition. And hey, Otonashi made the same assumptions. That's practically as good as Jun Meada himself saying it's the assumption we're supposed to make.
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
All that drama about Otonashi not wanting him to disappear. The sad piano solo. Hinata looking like he's reaching for the light. All that drama for nothing?
That's what we were discussing.

For the last point, Jun Meada clealy wanted us to believe that this was a serious situation and that Hinata would've disappeared. Perhaps there is a possibility that he wouldn't have but I think that's completely contradictory to what the writer wants us to believe.

And about that I don't really see what you've said supports the belief that Hinata was just caught in the moment. It still seems to me that that moment was really Hinata's 'true self'.
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Old 2010-06-03, 12:18   Link #343
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
That's what we were discussing.
I'm specifically referring to Hinata's outright denial of his disappearance. If this has been brought up before, kindly point me to it as I merely skimmed the last few pages.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
For the last point, Jun Meada clealy wanted us to believe that this was a serious situation and that Hinata would've disappeared. Perhaps there is a possibility that he wouldn't have but I think that's completely contradictory to what the writer wants us to believe.

And about that I don't really see what you've said supports the belief that Hinata was just caught in the moment. It still seems to me that that moment was really Hinata's 'true self'.
Refer to the screenshots in my previous post. Better yet, rewatch that scene in the episode itself. Note the difference in the approach to disappearance between Hinata and Iwasawa. The former clearly denied it, while the latter did not. And I don't think this is the case at all. See chapter 3 of the prequel.

The way I see it, if Hinata was really gonna disappear had Yui not intervened, then the act of attaining "nirvana" or whatever in that world is hardwired to incite some form of pleasure. This encourages the PCs to pass on, since it is a pleasurable experience and thus is instinctively considered favorable. What happened to Hinata is similar to instincts overriding logic and emotion.
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Old 2010-06-03, 14:41   Link #344
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Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
Refer to the screenshots in my previous post. Better yet, rewatch that scene in the episode itself. Note the difference in the approach to disappearance between Hinata and Iwasawa. The former clearly denied it, while the latter did not.
I honestly don't see how that makes a difference. Hinata denied it because he was asked about it. Iwasawa wasn't asked. We don't know what she would've said if the situation was reversed. The two situations are incomparable in this case.

Quote:
And I don't think this is the case at all. See chapter 3 of the prequel.

The way I see it, if Hinata was really gonna disappear had Yui not intervened, then the act of attaining "nirvana" or whatever in that world is hardwired to incite some form of pleasure. This encourages the PCs to pass on, since it is a pleasurable experience and thus is instinctively considered favorable. What happened to Hinata is similar to instincts overriding logic and emotion.
Don't tell me this is all based on that one quote "What the heck was the flame that had engulfed my heart?"

And I fail to see how that contradicts it being Hinata's true self, either. Lot's of people do things that they're unsure of why they did so in the first place. It happens all the time in anime.

And attaining inner peace is going to encite some form of pleasure anyway. And it can't encourage PC's to pass on instinctively unless they're hardwired to do that aswell.
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Old 2010-06-03, 14:46   Link #345
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Refer to the screenshots in my previous post.
I don't think that really proves much either. It could be like friends asking others whether they have a crush on a girl, and they "deny it" (nervously).

The fact that he was nervous, does not give me more confidence to his answer, but doubts instead. It's just my subjective interpretation, and it could very well be the case that he indeed got caught up in the moment when he was about to catch the ball, but I don't think "that scene" is the deal breaker.

Either way, it would be more valid if the question is also asked after the incident, not just before.

Last edited by maplehurry; 2010-06-03 at 20:32.
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Old 2010-06-03, 15:26   Link #346
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
And about that I don't really see what you've said supports the belief that Hinata was just caught in the moment. It still seems to me that that moment was really Hinata's 'true self'.
Why would split second reactions be truer than careful thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Yeah that's pretty much what i was gonna say. Ahn Minh says that their 'caught in the moment' doesn't really count as what they really think. That may be true in real life but that's not what the tone of the show is suggesting. And what the tone of show is suggesting is what we should use as indicators to characters motivations, rather than our own beliefs.
The show isn't suggesting anything one way or the other on the matter, and even if it was, it doesn't mean we have to accept it. The most the shows does on the subject is acknowledge that we have self-destructive impulses. It's not trying to argue they're our "true selves", whatever that means.

Quote:
Um..the original point was that Anh Minh said that all the SSS members were there because they didn't want to find inner peace, which i took issue with.
And they don't. Not really. No more than most people are.

Quote:
The fact that you say iwasawa chose it by her own will only proves my point. And I certainly don't see a diffrence between Iwasawa choosing it by her own will, and Hinata catching that ball.
Neither do I. I think she's also a case of "caught in the moment". From her last inner monologue, she may have seen it coming for a bit, and she might have chosen to disappear even if she'd had time to think about it. No, let's be honest: she'd have chosen to play music no matter what it cost her. But none of that is relevant to my point.

You see, I accept that sometimes, life hands you a situation where you have to make a split second decision, while you're in the grip of a powerful emotion. Maybe that decision ends up killing you, or something that you regret bitterly, but them's the breaks. Maybe, given time to consider, you'd make the exact same choice, and maybe you wouldn't, but well, that's life. Stuff happens, and it doesn't have to be fair.

I still think that someone who takes it upon himself, unasked for, to engineer such a situation hoping you'll die is a bit of a dick.

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2010-06-03 at 16:35.
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Old 2010-06-03, 15:37   Link #347
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I still think that someone who takes it upon himself, unasked for, to engineer such a situation hoping you'll die is a bit of a dick.
Sure, but that's where the disagreement seems to arise (and I think it's been mentioned before): the concept of "death" in this universe has been turned topsy-turvy, and is painted as not necessarily a bad thing. I expect the conflict in the next few episodes to address this exact subject, actually.
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Old 2010-06-03, 16:01   Link #348
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You see, I accept that sometimes, life hands you a situation where you have to make a split second decision, while you're in the grip of a powerful emotion. Maybe that decision ends up killing you, or something that you regret bitterly, but them's the break. Maybe, given time to consider, you'd make the exact same choice, and maybe you wouldn't, but well, that's life. Stuff happens, and it doesn't have to be fair.
That's fine and I'm not arguing against that. I just think that it's contrary to tone of this show. I'm not saying you have to accept it. But if you don't accept it, then it becomes Fridge Logic. It doesn't inidicate to anything such a characters motivations. But if you really believe that:

Quote:
The show isn't suggesting anything one way or the other on the matter
...well then I don't see how I can argue with that.
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Old 2010-06-03, 16:36   Link #349
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge View Post
Sure, but that's where the disagreement seems to arise (and I think it's been mentioned before): the concept of "death" in this universe has been turned topsy-turvy, and is painted as not necessarily a bad thing. I expect the conflict in the next few episodes to address this exact subject, actually.
I don't know. No one seemed glad about Iwasawa's death. Otonashi didn't seem particularly enthused about anybody dying, either... until ep 9.
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Old 2010-06-03, 23:56   Link #350
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You can't force someone to move on
The final decision is made by the person itself

Yes, Otonashi did want to stay because something was holding him back.

Yes, Imasawa did want to move on. Yes, it was more important than whatever bonds she had with the SSs.

To use Haibane Renmei parallels again, Otonoashi is going through the Nemu phase. Imasawa was Kuu
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Old 2010-06-04, 04:27   Link #351
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I honestly don't see how that makes a difference. Hinata denied it because he was asked about it. Iwasawa wasn't asked. We don't know what she would've said if the situation was reversed. The two situations are incomparable in this case.
Going into that final play, even before he was asked by Otonashi, he was already nervous. Iwasawa was not. See the difference now? Or do I need to clarify more?

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Don't tell me this is all based on that one quote "What the heck was the flame that had engulfed my heart?"

And I fail to see how that contradicts it being Hinata's true self, either. Lot's of people do things that they're unsure of why they did so in the first place. It happens all the time in anime.
Nope. Have you not read the prequel? I was referring to Hinata's attachment to Yuri. See chapter 3 specifically. To illustrate:
What Hinata thinks: I will never leave that girl's side.
What he did in the game: Wow, catching this ball feels so good, it's almost as if I'm gonna disap--

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
And attaining inner peace is going to encite some form of pleasure anyway. And it can't encourage PC's to pass on instinctively unless they're hardwired to do that aswell.
Why not? The reason why humans love to eat and reproduce is because eating and sex is pleasurable (It has been hardwired into our brains and anatomy that the basics for the species' survival are deemed as pleasurable activities. For example, sensitive pleasure centers have developed to encourage these activities.). I don't see how this can't be the case in this imaginary world as well, especially since it was set up to specifically address their old regrets.
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Old 2010-06-04, 04:51   Link #352
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Going into that final play, even before he was asked by Otonashi, he was already nervous. Iwasawa was not. See the difference now? Or do I need to clarify more?
Yes you do. Iwasawa's happened spontaneously. She wasn't given the luxury of recognising the situation like Hinata. Hinata was nervous because he was able to recognise the similarity between the situation and his regret. Was that the case for Iwasawa? No. They're not comparable.


Quote:
Nope. Have you not read the prequel? I was referring to Hinata's attachment to Yuri. See chapter 3 specifically. To illustrate:
What Hinata thinks: I will never leave that girl's side.
What he did in the game: Wow, catching this ball feels so good, it's almost as if I'm gonna disap--
Yeah but that was because Yuri was all alone. That wasn't the case here. And anyway, i only recall Hinata saying that right before Yuri dumped him. After that he actually started thinking about disappearing but gave up when he didn't have a clue how to go about it.

And I honestly don't see how that makes a difference anyway.

Quote:
Why not? The reason why humans love to eat and reproduce is because eating and sex is pleasurable (It has been hardwired into our brains and anatomy that the basics for the species' survival are deemed as pleasurable activities. For example, sensitive pleasure centers have developed to encourage these activities.). I don't see how this can't be the case in this imaginary world as well, especially since it was set up to specifically address their old regrets.
Actually I missunderstood what you were talking about. I thought you were talking about some sort of classical conditioning, which doesn't make any sense.
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Old 2010-06-04, 06:34   Link #353
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Yes you do. Iwasawa's happened spontaneously. She wasn't given the luxury of recognising the situation like Hinata. Hinata was nervous because he was able to recognise the similarity between the situation and his regret. Was that the case for Iwasawa? No. They're not comparable.
Yes. See, Yuri even discouraged her from playing My Song (most likely because, if it could be helped, she didn't want Iwasawa to disappear yet, since there was no suitable replacement for her before Yui stepped up), yet she still went through with it. They didn't need to play another song after that, since Yuri never gave any orders to continue playing after being caught. Despite this, she still escaped from her captors, grabbed the guitar, and started playing on her own (without the mic, sound systems, etc, turned on). She played on for a minute and a half, reminisced on how she had always wanted people to hear her song and play to her heart's content, and not once questioned whether she wanted to disappear or not. It was her choice, and Yuri respected it. No one forced her to play -- not the teachers, not the students, not her, not Tenshi.

On the other hand, Hinata was basically forced to catch the ball -- if he doesn't catch it, the team loses, which goes against Yuri's wishes. He was nervous going into that last play, since Otonashi hinted that if they'd win the game, Hinata might disappear. He outright denied this. And then, when the ball conveniently came to him, he basically blanked out, recalled his last game, and fell prey to the world's pleasure stimulators.

Two seconds versus a minute and 30. Obligated vs volunteered. Do you see the difference? Still not enough?

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Yeah but that was because Yuri was all alone. That wasn't the case here. And anyway, i only recall Hinata saying that right before Yuri dumped him. After that he actually started thinking about disappearing but gave up when he didn't have a clue how to go about it.
He picked himself up, with the help of Ooyama's "magic healing spells". He then took the brunt of Yuri's built-up rage, smiling all throughout, and thanks to Tenshi's intervention, right then and there caused the creation of the "rebels against God". And while getting beat up, he thought:
If I pass out, Yurippe would be all alone again. I don't want to see that happen anymore. That's the way I am, and isn't that how you are? So, you can hit me as much as you like. The number of times I've been hit says that I'm still fine.
And she will be again if and when Hinata disappears. He's one of the founders. The only person more important than him, other than Yuri herself, is Chaa, and he's too disjointed from the regulars due to Guild.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
And I honestly don't see how that makes a difference anyway.
What you implied to be Hinata's true self: I want to get out of this afterlife as soon as possible, and I don't care if I would pretty much destabilize the SSS if that were to happen.
What the story implies to be Hinata's true self: I want to stay by this girl's side no matter what, collect allies and build a strong raid group so that she will never be alone again.
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Old 2010-06-04, 08:27   Link #354
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Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
Yes. See, Yuri even discouraged her from playing My Song (most likely because, if it could be helped, she didn't want Iwasawa to disappear yet, since there was no suitable replacement for her before Yui stepped up), yet she still went through with it. They didn't need to play another song after that, since Yuri never gave any orders to continue playing after being caught. Despite this, she still escaped from her captors, grabbed the guitar, and started playing on her own (without the mic, sound systems, etc, turned on). She played on for a minute and a half, reminisced on how she had always wanted people to hear her song and play to her heart's content, and not once questioned whether she wanted to disappear or not. It was her choice, and Yuri respected it. No one forced her to play -- not the teachers, not the students, not her, not Tenshi.
Yuri never said not to play it because she feared it would make her disappear. The rest of what you've described is her being caught in the moment. Are you saying that when you're caught in the moment, that's when you actually know you'll disappear? If that's the case then it IS your true self when you're 'caught in the moment'.

Quote:
On the other hand, Hinata was basically forced to catch the ball -- if he doesn't catch it, the team loses, which goes against Yuri's wishes. He was nervous going into that last play, since Otonashi hinted that if they'd win the game, Hinata might disappear. He outright denied this. And then, when the ball conveniently came to him, he basically blanked out, recalled his last game, and fell prey to the world's pleasure stimulators.
Cats are black.
Therefore, God does not exist.

This is about as much sense as I'm getting out of this (Don't take that the wrong way. It's not meant to be insulting. I'm genuinley just not seeing the connection). Listen just try and reword it or something because it's obviously not clicking. Or better yet explain how Hinata saying 'Ofcourse I'm not going to disappear' and feeling nervous suggests that he's pressured into it rather than simply being at unease facing his demon and trying to reassure himself and Otonashi that nothing bad will happen.

That was actually a factor? And in such a serious situation? You'd think they'd give exposition on such a an important factor. I mean it was only played for laughs. I'm pretty certain Yuri would've accepted the possibility of disappearing as a valid excuse for pulling out. Especially since losing wouldn't have been that big of deal. Especially if Yuri cares about Hinata that much. But it was actually enough to pressure Hinata into facing his demons? Honestly?
Don't you think that a much more simple explanation was that the whole convo when Hinata denied disappearing was just an attempt to give exposition that Hinata might disappear?



Quote:
And she will be again if and when Hinata disappears. He's one of the founders. The only person more important than him, other than Yuri herself, is Chaa, and he's too disjointed from the regulars due to Guild.
Honestly i have to disagree with that. Looking at how they act in the anime you wouldn't even think they were that close.

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Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
He picked himself up
No he didn't. Only reason he didn't try to disappear was because he had no idea how.

Quote:
What the story implies to be Hinata's true self: I want to stay by this girl's side no matter what, collect allies and build a strong raid group so that she will never be alone again.
Actually I was pretty certain that what the chapter implied was that since he had no idea of how to go about disappearing so he would just stick to what he could do (which was to help Yuri).
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Old 2010-06-04, 09:31   Link #355
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Since i'm pretty much agree with Ice Block's points so i probably won't need to mention much.

But Haak, i do not understand at all when you said that "Only reason he didn't try to disappear was because he had no idea how". Aren't you the one who understand yourself most in most case? It's not like Otonashi knows something that Hinata do not. If even Hinata do not know how, then Otonashi won't even have a close chance there.

PS: yeah i survived
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Old 2010-06-04, 09:41   Link #356
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But Haak, i do not understand at all when you said that "Only reason he didn't try to disappear was because he had no idea how". Aren't you the one who understand yourself most in most case? It's not like Otonashi knows something that Hinata do not. If even Hinata do not know how, then Otonashi won't even have a close chance there.
I'm not sure i understand. When i said "Only reason he didn't try to disappear was because he had no idea how", I was refferring to Hinata during chapter 3.

I'm not sure what Otonashi has to do with this. Are you trying to say that Otonashi saying 'Are you going to disappear?' shouldn't have been taken seriously? I think that's entirely different. Hinata wasn't sure how to go about finding inner peace. You're right, Otonashi probably won't either, but in Hinata's case he was given a very very very very strong hint, that anyone Genre Savvy enough could've picked up. And regardless, it's still exposition even if it is a little weird.
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Old 2010-06-04, 14:39   Link #357
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If even Hinata do not know how, then Otonashi won't even have a close chance there.
Indeed, Otonashi will have to do it through trial and error, and then hope for the best.
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Old 2010-06-05, 11:04   Link #358
Ice Block
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Yuri never said not to play it because she feared it would make her disappear. The rest of what you've described is her being caught in the moment. Are you saying that when you're caught in the moment, that's when you actually know you'll disappear? If that's the case then it IS your true self when you're 'caught in the moment'.
She never said it, but it is implied that she knew. She didn't seem shocked/saddened/enraged at Iwasawa's disappearance, and she probably calmly explained it to the rest of the SSS.

So, you create the moment yourself, and then you get caught up in it for more than a minute and a half, complete with flashbacks into the happiest moments of your past? I think you need to check your definitions here. Also, see Yui's disappearance. No uneasiness, no denying, no sudden "wow this is the greatest feeling ev--". She even openly stated what she wanted.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Cats are black.
Therefore, God does not exist.
This is basically what I meant:
  1. Hinata catches ball -> team wins baseball match
  2. Hinata doesn't catch ball -> team loses baseball match
Hinata wants to win, so he chose option a.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
explain how Hinata saying 'Ofcourse I'm not going to disappear' and feeling nervous suggests that he's pressured into it rather than simply being at unease facing his demon and trying to reassure himself and Otonashi that nothing bad will happen.
Pressured, as in forced? Forced into what? Catching the ball? He was forced into catching the ball because that is his job as a player. If he doesn't catch the ball, the batter will get to run, and they will lose the game (which they did).

Or did you not get the last part (forced into feeling pleasure from catching the ball)? It's like a set feeling/sense or instinct. If you eat something sweet, it's almost impossible for you to make it feel sour instead. You will never normally see red as blue, it will be very hard to ignore pain without painkillers or special training, orgasm will always feel pleasurable unless you have some disorders, etc.

And I'm not sure about what you're trying to ask here, but this is basically what he did. Why would he do that? Because he doesn't want anything bad to happen. If he doesn't want anything bad to happen, why did he accept possible disappearance with open arms? Because he got caught up in the moment, or, for a better term, he got caught off-guard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
That was actually a factor? And in such a serious situation? You'd think they'd give exposition on such a an important factor. I mean it was only played for laughs. I'm pretty certain Yuri would've accepted the possibility of disappearing as a valid excuse for pulling out. Especially since losing wouldn't have been that big of deal. Especially if Yuri cares about Hinata that much. But it was actually enough to pressure Hinata into facing his demons? Honestly? Don't you think that a much more simple explanation was that the whole convo when Hinata denied disappearing was just an attempt to give exposition that Hinata might disappear?
Otonashi's question and the flashbacks to Hinata's past already did that. What do you make of his denial then? Is it just some nonsense filler? Does it not mean anything? Personally, I believe it tells us that Hinata doesn't want to disappear at that time.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Honestly i have to disagree with that. Looking at how they act in the anime you wouldn't even think they were that close.
That's because the anime is set up to develop Yui's love/hate relationship with Hinata so that the scene at the end of Ep10 will not come out as baseless. Anyway, their closeness shows when Yuri always includes him in special operations, when he was probably one of the last to fall in Naoi's massacre (together with Yuri, hinting that he was defending her), and when he's pretty willing to sacrifice himself for her (first Guild descent). Also, he's the first person Yuri introduced to Otonashi, they're most casual around each other, and other minor things like sitting beside Yuri at dinner in Ep01, sharing a table with her at Ep05, etc.

Hinata doesn't want to disappear because he wants to take care of Yuri. Yuri formed the SSS together with him, and he basically recruited both Ooyama (gave him the courage to stay around Yuri) and Shiina (anime hints at Matsushita and probably Hisako too). It's like being in a long-lived guild/organization. When the co-founder suddenly throws in the towel (for no good reason), you're bound to have some group instability.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
No he didn't. Only reason he didn't try to disappear was because he had no idea how.
He did. Refer to his conversation with Ooyama before he decided to go look for Yuri. After he picked himself up he never brought the disappearance issue up again.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Actually I was pretty certain that what the chapter implied was that since he had no idea of how to go about disappearing so he would just stick to what he could do (which was to help Yuri).
The chapter implied that he no longer cared about disappearing. He only wanted to make Yuri happy.

Hoho, and I just noticed that it's confirmed that they (the core at least) have been there for many years, as Chaa casually remarks in Ep02.
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Old 2010-06-05, 13:44   Link #359
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Age: 23
We can't talk about future events btw.

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Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
She never said it, but it is implied that she knew. She didn't seem shocked/saddened/enraged at Iwasawa's disappearance, and she probably calmly explained it to the rest of the SSS.
Neither did a lot of the members. That's not enough to say it was implied. Shes been been calm in just about every single SSS meeting no matter how dire the situation.

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So, you create the moment yourself, and then you get caught up in it for more than a minute and a half, complete with flashbacks into the happiest moments of your past? I think you need to check your definitions here.
She didn't create it. She was forced into it aswell. She cared about that guitar and didn't want the teachers to destroy it. She started playing the guitar because she was caught in the moment. Just like Hinata raised his arms to catch that ball because he was caught in the moment. Hinata was also having flashbacks and shit like that.
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Pressured, as in forced? Forced into what? Catching the ball? He was forced into catching the ball because that is his job as a player. If he doesn't catch the ball, the batter will get to run, and they will lose the game (which they did).
This is what you you said before:
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Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
[On the other hand, Hinata was basically forced to catch the ball -- if he doesn't catch it, the team loses, which goes against Yuri's wishes.
I assumed your argument was that Hinata was forced into being 'caught in the moment' whilst Iwasawa was not. My counter argument was that he clearly identified it was a serious situation and something as silly as wanting to win the game shouldn't override the fact that if he doesn't want to disappear so much then he should've played it safe and dropped out. So he wasn't forced into it.

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Or did you not get the last part (forced into feeling pleasure from catching the ball)? It's like a set feeling/sense or instinct. If you eat something sweet, it's almost impossible for you to make it feel sour instead. You will never normally see red as blue, it will be very hard to ignore pain without painkillers or special training, orgasm will always feel pleasurable unless you have some disorders, etc.
Oh I see. So you're saying that Hinata was forced into catching that ball, not because of his regrets but because he fell prey to this stimulator or whatever. You base this on the fact that Hinata implied he didn't want to disappear. Iwasawa is different because she never said she didn't want to disappear. Ofcourse, I already said before she didn't have the luxury of seeing the situation. I also said it doesn't really matter that Hinata said in such a small line. Him wanting to catch the ball was his 'true self'. And that's what we're arguing about now (so why the hell did you mention going against Yuri's wishes?)


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And I'm not sure about what you're trying to ask here, but this is basically what he did. Why would he do that? Because he doesn't want anything bad to happen. If he doesn't want anything bad to happen, why did he accept possible disappearance with open arms? Because he got caught up in the moment, or, for a better term, he got caught off-guard.
Or because he didn't think it was actually bad (I'm sure you can guess why i would think that) Like I said, he told Otonashi he wasn't going to disappear just to reassure him.

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Otonashi's question and the flashbacks to Hinata's past already did that. What do you make of his denial then? Is it just some nonsense filler? Does it not mean anything? Personally, I believe it tells us that Hinata doesn't want to disappear at that time.
Yes. Your entire argument is all based on this one little line that Hinata just threw out, used to end the scene, and your subjective interpretation of him during chapter 3.

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That's because the anime is set up to develop Yui's love/hate relationship with Hinata.. Anyway, their closeness shows when Yuri always includes him in special operations, when he was probably one of the last to fall in Naoi's massacre (together with Yuri, hinting that he was defending her), and when he's pretty willing to sacrifice himself for her (first Guild descent). Also, he's the first person Yuri introduced to Otonashi, they're most casual around each other, and other minor things like sitting beside Yuri at dinner in Ep01, sharing a table with her at Ep05, etc.
There was practically zero development in these previous episodes besides them being at each others throat for about 1/100th of some episodes. It was hardly anything. There's no way they couldn't have fit in a Hinata-Yuri relationship aswell.

And what you've described suggests good friendship. But not "He's the only thing important in my life"


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Hinata doesn't want to disappear because he wants to take care of Yuri. Yuri formed the SSS together with him, and he basically recruited both Ooyama (gave him the courage to stay around Yuri) and Shiina (anime hints at Matsushita and probably Hisako too). It's like being in a long-lived guild/organization. When the co-founder suddenly throws in the towel (for no good reason), you're bound to have some group instability.
I don't see why unless the co-founder is responsible for a lot of things which Hinata isn't. There wasn't much trouble when Iwasawa disappeared and she was a very important figure.

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He did. Refer to his conversation with Ooyama before he decided to go look for Yuri. After he picked himself up he never brought the disappearance issue up again.
That's because there wasn't any point. There's nothing he could do.

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The chapter implied that he no longer cared about disappearing. He only wanted to make Yuri happy.
I honestly don't see where that's coming from.

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Hoho, and I just noticed that it's confirmed that they (the core at least) have been there for many years, as Chaa casually remarks in Ep02.
....and?
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Last edited by Haak; 2010-06-05 at 15:08.
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Old 2010-06-06, 06:18   Link #360
Ice Block
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Philippines
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Neither did a lot of the members. That's not enough to say it was implied. Shes been been calm in just about every single SSS meeting no matter how dire the situation.
Pay more attention. Yui was surprised. Sekine and Irie were surprised. Fujimaki was surprised. All the other guys were surprised. Also, the point here is that Iwasawa's disappearance was of less importance to her than learning about Angel's programs. She just casually explained to the others how Iwasawa accepted it herself (also note how she commented on the ballad at the start of the ep).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
She didn't create it. She was forced into it aswell. She cared about that guitar and didn't want the teachers to destroy it. She started playing the guitar because she was caught in the moment. Just like Hinata raised his arms to catch that ball because he was caught in the moment. Hinata was also having flashbacks and shit like that.
She did. And wrong. She played the guitar because she wanted to. The instance of being caught in the moment there is when she overpowered the teachers (the actual event that triggered disappearance was My Song). Then, she took the guitar, and instead of running away, she chose to play a song. And not just any other song, but the one Yuri specifically told her not to play. All these are done without any hesitation whatsoever, and Hisako even reacted accordingly, almost as if it was planned from the start. Watch the episode again. Pay attention to this particular scene. Compare that to the baseball incident. Are you telling me that there is no difference?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I assumed your argument was that Hinata was forced into being 'caught in the moment' whilst Iwasawa was not. My counter argument was that he clearly identified it was a serious situation and something as silly as wanting to win the game shouldn't override the fact that if he doesn't want to disappear so much then he should've played it safe and dropped out. So he wasn't forced into it.
He was. The moment (disappearance trigger event) here is when the ball flew to his direction. Not the talk with Otonashi. Not the time-out meeting. Not the pitch. Not the hit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Oh I see. So you're saying that Hinata was forced into catching that ball, not because of his regrets but because he fell prey to this stimulator or whatever. You base this on the fact that Hinata implied he didn't want to disappear. Iwasawa is different because she never said she didn't want to disappear. Ofcourse, I already said before she didn't have the luxury of seeing the situation. I also said it doesn't really matter that Hinata said in such a small line. Him wanting to catch the ball was his 'true self'. And that's what we're arguing about now (so why the hell did you mention going against Yuri's wishes?)
She did. I gave you reasons why she did. Are you saying these did not happen? Are you telling me that she didn't know she was playing a song for 1.5 mins? Are you telling me that she was feeling hesitant to play that song? Are you telling me that she was forced to play? Are you telling me that she didn't have any other choice but to play My Song?

Yuri's wish: Defeat Kanade's team; win baseball tournament if possible. If he doesn't catch the ball, their team would lose the match.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Or because he didn't think it was actually bad (I'm sure you can guess why i would think that) Like I said, he told Otonashi he wasn't going to disappear just to reassure him.
To reassure him that he wouldn't disappear. I don't see what's so hard to get about this.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Yes. Your entire argument is all based on this one little line that Hinata just threw out, used to end the scene, and your subjective interpretation of him during chapter 3.
And it just so happens that that one line is of utmost importance. I believe you're not paying enough attention here if you think that that line is just filler. And also, are you telling me that he didn't pick himself up in chapter 3? See:
Spoiler for Chapter 3 excerpt:
Spoiler for Chapter 3 excerpt:
Are you telling me that all you got from this is "I want to disappear"? If so, then we might as well stop arguing -- we will never see eye to eye.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
There was practically zero development in these previous episodes besides them being at each others throat for about 1/100th of some episodes. It was hardly anything. There's no way they couldn't have fit in a Hinata-Yuri relationship aswell.
Tsundere. Do you not know of this? I'm not a fan of Yui x Hinata, but there is absolutely more than 12 seconds of Yui and Hinata interaction in the episodes that featured them. And again, let me remind you that this is a mixed-media project. You are supposed to look into all media (LN, Manga, Anime) to truly understand the characters.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
And what you've described suggests good friendship. But not "He's the only thing important in my life"
Did I suggest otherwise? Read my post again.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I don't see why unless the co-founder is responsible for a lot of things which Hinata isn't. There wasn't much trouble when Iwasawa disappeared and she was a very important figure.
There was, but Yuri calmed it. However, as important as she might look to the viewer, she's not as important to the integrity of the SSS as a whole. These are the only important figures:


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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
That's because there wasn't any point. There's nothing he could do.
Read the chapter again. I'll give you a hint: it's there in the above excerpts.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I honestly don't see where that's coming from.
Read it again. And again. And again. If you still can't see it after reading the chapter 10 times, then I can't help you.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
....and?
Just something I noticed while rewatching Ep02. Not particularly related, but should make you think of how relationships evolve over, perhaps, a decade.
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