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Old 2010-06-16, 05:31   Link #181
VVayfarer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
In fact: "Research data clearly proves that a way a woman dresses and / or acts does not influence the rapists choice of victims." Taken from a list dealing with rape myths that can be found here: http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jha...925/myths.html
This list fails to provide access to its sources (if any) for most of the 'myths', so the information inside should be taken with a grain of salt. The part you quoted actually cited some 'sources', but they seem to be non-existent or inaccessible at least on the internet.

Searching for 'rape statistics', all that could be found regarding clothing and rape was that the rapists 'didn't remember the clothing of their victims', and that some victims were either 'too old' or 'too young' to wear provocative clothing. This can hardly be thought of as conclusive proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I don't agree with that at all. For one, rapists don't care what a woman wears. She could be ugly, covered in mud and dressed in a burlap sack.

Rape isn't about sex. It's about power, control, creating fear and terror. Why do you think mentally disabled people get raped? The elderly? You really think those rapists find a fat, wrinkly 90-year-old prune to be sexually attractive?

No, the power they gain over their victim is where the arousal comes from.
Rape is largely about sex. Many people misinterpret the fact that 'control and power are major factors that rapists are after'. It doesn't translate to 'rape is all about the power', no matter what many (feminist) sources claim. Rape is by definition 'non-consensual intercourse (sex)'. If it's 'not much about the sex', then it's a very rare kind of rape, one that could only be committed by a person without sexual drive or consciousness - therefore having no need for sex. This is, however, unlikely since that kind of people can be expected to use systematic infliction of pain (or perhaps humiliation) instead, since that's much more 'effective' in terms of damage caused. Not to mention the fact that - if they were male - they might be unable to get an erection in the first place. But I digress.

Studies have indeed shown that rapists get 'turned on' by the feelings of power and control. Please note, however, that most victims of rape are very young, and according to any credible source the majority of them are less than 25 or even 18 years old. This leads to the conclusion that rape is just one form of sex amidst others, and abides by the 'laws of attraction' just like the others. To put things simply, the rapists want to have sex with someone they find attractive and vulnerable, and so they rape because they prefer to 'have sex' while feeling the power and control they have over that someone.

There are people who are sexually attracted towards the elderly, and the percentage of such people is likely to be closely correlated with the percentage of elderly rape victims. So yes, that kind of rapists do "find a fat, wrinkly 90-year-old prune to be sexually attractive" (The 'fat' part is irrelevant. A fat person can hardly be 90 years old - they have to be somewhat healthy to live that long).

On a related note, people seem to have the misconception that 'rape is torture'. No matter how you look at it, torture is torture, while rape is non-concensual intercourse. The two are not related.

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I don't buy it. If I go out one night dressed in a short skirt and heels and a tight top, it is one hundred percent not my fault if someone attacks me and rapes me. It is entirely their fault; they made the choice to attack me.
Firstly, there is no 'fault'. It's a meaningless and illogical concept. When someone is accused of being 'at fault' and told to 'take responsibility', nothing is achieved.

The prevention of crime exists to prevent harm, not to make the potential of getting harmed go away. In other words, all the factors that lead to a 'crime' are 'at fault'. If the so-called victim is the one who had the conscious choice of making the crime happen or not, with no concequences arising from the 'no crime' -option, then the victim could be said to be '100% at fault', even if there were many other factors that were, in reality, also 'at fault'. In the situation you mentioned, ignoring safety precautions is a factor that shouldn't be ignored - it 'deserves' blame just as much as the crime itself.

People have a tendency to focus on the final major 'conscious' (i.ex. a human) factor when it comes to crimes or even accidents, and try to blame them for everything. I.ex. when someone is killed, the murderer is convicted and people put the blame on the murderer. But in reality, the reasons that lead to a murder 'should be blamed', if anything, because a crime never starts from nothing. There are always factors that precede the final one, factors that are much more decicive when it comes to prevention.

Here's an example: If you carry food to people who are starving, and refuse to give it to them no matter what you aren't exercising any 'fundamential right' of yours. If you get attacked because of this, the attackers aren't 'at fault'. If there is fault, it can be applied to everything that lead to the situation - you going there with food, the famine itself, and to an extent the attackers; even the existence of the food could be blamed, or the fact that people need nutrition to survive. This is simply irrational. Nothing is achieved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Don't let the whiny leftist handwringers and the destiny-worshipping bible-thumpers tell you different. We're all responsible for our own choices and nothing, nothing is predestined.
Responsibility, you say. Things that happen before our birth decide what kind of people we will be, what kind of an environment we will live in, and in other words all our 'conscious choices' have their roots somewhere withing the past, which we couldn't have affected no matter what. People aren't responsible for things that happen before they are born, and thus, there is no real 'responsibility'. It is a concept used to encourage people to behave in 'a right way', and a concept that will give people a sense of 'reason'. Nothing more, nothing less.

On topic:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I'm just gonna respost this even-handed article for people to re-read. It's one of the few I could find with a more balanced look at the urban dancing scene:

http://artsblog.freedomblogging.com/...oo-sexy/30475/

In case you don't click, I'm gonna repost a few sections from the guy investigating this:

"To me, this style of dance is undoubtedly too risqué for kids this age. But Dance Precision’s girls are by no means unique in their transgression. The world of urban dance is both competitive and popular; other teachers are guilty of allowing their students to perform sexualized material at too young an age, simply to make a big impression at competitions."

“This (dance routine) isn’t something I would feel comfortable with in my classroom or on a public stage, especially for girls this age,” said Jennifer Backhaus, who teaches dance at Chapman University and runs her own modern dance company. “But this is a different world from the one I’m in. There are different expectations and pressures.”

“I see it more and more,” said Festival Ballet artistic director Salwa Rizkalla from her studio in Fountain Valley. “This style of dance isn’t part of the (ballet) aesthetic, of course, and I would never allow it. But many young girls are being exposed to it now.”

"But when I tried to get a dance teacher to make a similar defense of Dance Precisions on the record, I struck out time and again. (Dance Precision’s owners refused my requests for comment – they were clearly shaken by the controversy when I talked to them.)

A seasoned commercial choreographer who requested anonymity summed it up for me. “This is a big, lucrative part of the dance scene, and some of my friends teach girls in schools like Dance Precisions. There’s too much money at stake for them to speak out against it.”"

Karen Drews, a veteran employee of the Irvine Barclay Theatre, suggests this brouhaha is part of something bigger. “When I lived in the south, these young-girl beauty pageants had the same feeling. Some people thought some things the girls were made to do were inappropriate. This debate isn’t new or confined to dance.”
Excuse me for my short-sightedness, but what does this blog post prove? Indeed, it has gathered quite a lot of 'authoritative' opinions regarding the subject, but that's all there is.
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Old 2010-06-16, 09:09   Link #182
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Hidden for potentially triggering content (discussion of rape).
Spoiler:
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Old 2010-06-16, 10:11   Link #183
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Going to drop the rape subject, as it's gone far enough off-topic. The only reason it came up, was due to me trying to show that there are smart actions and there are stupid ones, when it comes to personal security.

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
The West's conception of sexuality in general is totally fucking bonkers, anyway. I blame Christianity, Freud and the National Institute on Media and the Family.
As an ex-Christian, I will agree that Christianity (or more appropriately, Puritanism) has been the "bonkers" reason for views on sexuality. But that's not the reason why I am arguing against it; there are valid, scientific psychological concerns for children undertaking some activities. We've already established that there are some activities that are not healthy for the developing mind of a child. The only point of contention is whether something like the dance video is a part of it or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VVayfarer View Post
Excuse me for my short-sightedness, but what does this blog post prove? Indeed, it has gathered quite a lot of 'authoritative' opinions regarding the subject, but that's all there is.
Because, in this midst of opinions being tossed back and forth, it is the only and closest authoritative article I could find about this subject. I thought I'd interject some facts into these opinions, because my opinions are derived from facts. It's articles like this, which actually have done the research and interviews, which help me form my viewpoints.

And I admit, as a result of this article, I've moderated my opinion somewhat; it's not all bad, but there are dangerous undertones present. But it's also wide-spread.

Then again, I could just stick with my opinion instead of listening to authorities on the subject, heh. That's what most people do...
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Old 2010-06-16, 15:53   Link #184
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
Modern kids must feel really bad playing with dolls or dressing like cowboys. So they rush to become fashion models and businessmen before they even get their pubes. To them, money and fame beat dolls and cowboy hats.

And I guess parents love boasting around at how their kid is not a mediocrity. They probably even laugh at all the bookworm kids with an IQ of 130 for being nerds that are poor and unpopular.
It's sad society has to suffer like this. You know what it all comes to peer pressure and what people think. Sad but true!
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Old 2010-06-16, 16:20   Link #185
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Not bothering to quote, but consensual sex is widely and freely available. Anyone can get ass in this day and age. There's no need to rape someone "just because they were horny." In fact, I don't think I've ever heard of a convicted rapist who raped people just because he/she was horny--rapists typically have a laundry list of psychological issues.
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Old 2010-06-17, 10:31   Link #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Not bothering to quote, but consensual sex is widely and freely available. Anyone can get ass in this day and age. There's no need to rape someone "just because they were horny." In fact, I don't think I've ever heard of a convicted rapist who raped people just because he/she was horny--rapists typically have a laundry list of psychological issues.
Oh really? Not everyone can; it varies wildly by location and age. Escorts/prostitutes may be available or not, may be legal or not, socially acceptable or not. And some people, normal women just won't want to sleep with.

So unless you're offering yourself up to any guy who wants, your statement doesn't hold.

One thing that can create a rapist, is a guy who *can't* get a woman, despite him trying. Rejection after rejection, being used over and over, and he snaps; it's all their fault, and he's going to use them, like they used him. He's going to force sex with them, so while it's physically about sex, it's also about reasserting power over an "antagonist" so as to not feel powerless, on a deeper level.

But this is getting a bit off topic. Rape is not just sex, as there are terms like "Mind rape" or "I raped his wallet" or "that film raped my childhood" etc. Essentially it's a taking of something without consent of one party. Standard sexual rape is about sex on some level, though.
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Old 2010-06-17, 10:54   Link #187
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That's different though. There's still some level of mental derangement there. It's not just because he was horny.
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Old 2010-06-17, 12:02   Link #188
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If rape was mainly about sex, it should occur considerably less often in countries in which prostitution is legal. If rape was caused by "revealing" clothes, it should occur considerably less often in countries in which women usually don't show any skin.

Sure, there are often other factors at work, but anyone who wants to tell a victim that they could have prevented it should have some solid proof at hand. Considering the vast majority of rapes are planned and that it's rarely strangers who are the preparators, I'd be surprised to see any.
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Old 2010-06-17, 14:53   Link #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
That's different though. There's still some level of mental derangement there. It's not just because he was horny.
Oh?

Someone unable to get sex, instead takes it. Deranged?

Someone unable to get food, instead steals it. Deranged?

Humans perceive a need, and when they perceive they are unable to procure it through normal socially acceptable means, they resort to socially unacceptable means.

Calling them deranged is ignoring the root causes of the problem. Treat the cause, not the symptoms, and you'll fix issues. Otherwise, they'll just continue.

This is why I won't turn friends away, no matter what (unless they turn away from me first). Because I can prevent a "criminal" from being created if I help them address their needs and problems, before they get to that point. I sometimes wish more people would, then we wouldn't half the problems we do, but that's a rant for another time, heh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
If rape was mainly about sex, it should occur considerably less often in countries in which prostitution is legal. If rape was caused by "revealing" clothes, it should occur considerably less often in countries in which women usually don't show any skin.
It's not always about sex, as I basically said in my earlier post. There are other types of rapes. But you can't deny that sexual rape does happen. Also, you argument is invalid because prostitution does cost money; someone who can't afford it, can still end up raping. Indeed, random prostitutes are targeted for rape by men who don't want to pay, or can't afford to.

Quote:
Sure, there are often other factors at work, but anyone who wants to tell a victim that they could have prevented it should have some solid proof at hand. Considering the vast majority of rapes are planned and that it's rarely strangers who are the preparators, I'd be surprised to see any.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but I never said a victim could prevent it 100%. If I don't want to be hit by a car, I won't randomly wander out into a busy street. True, I can still be hit by a car even if I followed all the rules (looked both ways, crossed on a crosswalk during a red light,etc.) but I considerably reduce my risk by following some simple rules. Rape isn't much different; pay attention to what you wear, and where you go, and the people around you, and you'll stay safe most of the time.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm the last person to support personal responsibility; most of society nowadays would rather sue and blame someone else for anything that happens, and so we end up with a "do not eat this" warning on a hammer, even though that should be common sense...

Last edited by Kaijo; 2010-06-17 at 15:04.
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Old 2010-06-17, 15:17   Link #190
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I have no idea what the hell you guys are babbling about, but I came on the thread with the promise of lolis dancing sexy dances, and found nothing but deleted videos.

Robbed, I tell you. ROBBED!
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Old 2010-06-17, 16:02   Link #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Oh?

Someone unable to get sex, instead takes it. Deranged?

Someone unable to get food, instead steals it. Deranged?
If you don't get food, you die. If you don't get sex, you'll be horny (if for some you reason can't do something about that on your own).

If you take food from a person who has plenty, they'll possibly be pissed. If you take food from a person as poor as you, well, not awesome, but at least it was a "you or them" situation. If you take sex someone who is unwilling, that person will most likely be severely traumatized.

No, I really don't think the two are comparable.

Quote:
Humans perceive a need, and when they perceive they are unable to procure it through normal socially acceptable means, they resort to socially unacceptable means.
Which is understandable sometimes, and simply disgusting in other cases.

Quote:
Calling them deranged is ignoring the root causes of the problem. Treat the cause, not the symptoms, and you'll fix issues. Otherwise, they'll just continue.
So... make the government pay for your prostitutes?

Quote:
This is why I won't turn friends away, no matter what (unless they turn away from me first). Because I can prevent a "criminal" from being created if I help them address their needs and problems, before they get to that point. I sometimes wish more people would, then we wouldn't half the problems we do, but that's a rant for another time, heh.
Are you seriously saying you'd happily be friends with a rapist, and that they "just can't helpt it" because regular sex isn't considered a Human Right? Or was that just a general statement in an unfortunate context?

Quote:
Also, you argument is invalid because prostitution does cost money; someone who can't afford it, can still end up raping.
There are extremely poor people who manage to pay for their drugs. They can also manage to pay for their sex if they want it badly enough.

Quote:
Indeed, random prostitutes are targeted for rape by men who don't want to pay, or can't afford to.
I'd say they usually don't want to pay, and that they're not after just the sex most of the time.

Quote:
I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but I never said a victim could prevent it 100%.
Not even 1%, most likely.

Quote:
If I don't want to be hit by a car, I won't randomly wander out into a busy street. True, I can still be hit by a car even if I followed all the rules (looked both ways, crossed on a crosswalk during a red light,etc.) but I considerably reduce my risk by following some simple rules. Rape isn't much different; pay attention to what you wear, and where you go, and the people around you, and you'll stay safe most of the time.
Yeah, because it has been proven that wearing miniskirts enhances your risk of being raped in the same manner running in front of a driving car enhances your risk of ending up as road kill. Never mind that cases in which the rapists are strangers are very rare. About 10%, if I remember correctly - and again, probably for precisely that reason, the vast majority of rapes are planned beforehand.

Quote:
Sometimes I wonder if I'm the last person to support personal responsibility; most of society nowadays would rather sue and blame someone else for anything that happens, and so we end up with a "do not eat this" warning on a hammer, even though that should be common sense...
I'm all for personal responisbility. I am, however, not about to tell women they'd be better off wearing a burqa just because some people think it's common sense that rapists care about their clothes. Heck, even if 2% of rapes could be prevented that way, it would still not be the victims' fault that they value their personal freedom highly enough to wear something else instead. You don't blame someone who gets killed in a car accident because he didn't travel by bus or stayed at home instead. Or at least, I hope you don't.
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Last edited by Nogitsune; 2010-06-17 at 16:12.
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Old 2010-06-17, 16:16   Link #192
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Mayhaps we should make a separate topic for rape and the like, since there are so many misconceptions flying around here, and derailing any discussion about propriety regarding the original video.

Don't even start me on the absurdity of "hurf durf wear certain clothes and you won't get raped durr"...
A tshirt & baggy jeans so screams "please rape me and leave me in the woods"... mmhmm....

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Old 2010-06-17, 17:34   Link #193
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No, I'm not gonna continue on the rape issue, at least here. It's pointless to try and hold a logical conversation with someone who relies more on the appeal to emotion fallacy and strawmen, then actually listening to what someone is saying.
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Old 2010-06-17, 17:46   Link #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Sure, there are often other factors at work, but anyone who wants to tell a victim that they could have prevented it should have some solid proof at hand. Considering the vast majority of rapes are planned and that it's rarely strangers who are the preparators, I'd be surprised to see any.
If people want to tell victims they could have prevented it, then they should give them something that will let them prevent it.

And by "something" I mean 16+1 rounds of 9x19mm JHP locked and loaded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
I have no idea what the hell you guys are babbling about, but I came on the thread with the promise of lolis dancing sexy dances, and found nothing but deleted videos.

Robbed, I tell you. ROBBED!
This is the best post in this entire thread.
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Old 2010-06-17, 17:56   Link #195
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Originally Posted by cheyannew View Post
Mayhaps we should make a separate topic for rape and the like, since there are so many misconceptions flying around here, and derailing any discussion about propriety regarding the original video.
I was about to say that that's a pretty good idea, but now I think it might be best to just drop the subject entirely.

The post about how sex is like food and how rapists are pitiable victims of society was bad enough, but now I am being told that I am overly emotional when it's the other party that doesn't have any evidence to back up their claims? Well, at least I agree that trying to have a logical conversation is probably pointless here.

Quote:
Don't even start me on the absurdity of "hurf durf wear certain clothes and you won't get raped durr"...
*cheers*
I mean, just... no.
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Old 2010-06-17, 18:03   Link #196
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Because I never said anything about miniskirts. That's called a strawman, when you bring up something that the other party never even said in an attempt to knock it down. If I were take the same tone as you, then I would say: "Well, apparently Nogitsune feels it's alright for kids to play in traffic, and if they get hit, it's purely the fault of the driver."

Edit: And apparently I have to show links to explain exactly why covering oneself in bloody steaks and jumping into a Lion's Den is somehow a stupid move. I really didn't think people were that lacking in common sense.
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Old 2010-06-17, 18:03   Link #197
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No. This thread needs lockdown. Not on topic.

We've seen how this thing gets more on topic.

By getting further off topic.

This is ridiculous. This thread now, thanks to you all, serves no purpose. The campaigning of feminism and the campaigning of other different ideologies have successfully... messed this thread up.

;D Congratulations. You guys raped this thread. :X
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Old 2010-06-17, 18:12   Link #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Because I never said anything about miniskirts. That's called a strawman, when you bring up something that the other party never even said in an attempt to knock it down. If I were take the same tone as you, then I would say: "Well, apparently Nogitsune feels it's alright for kids to play in traffic, and if they get hit, it's purely the fault of the driver."
No, you didn't say anything about miniskirts in particular. You said something about clothes, and I mentioned in another post that the miniskirt was an example - it's simply faster to type than "revealing clothes". You could have said something if that wasn't what you meant, though I don't think it makes a difference what kind of clothing it is.

It's simply not true that you can "stay safe most of the time" by following certain rules. But let's either make a new thread about this issue or continue this via PM, or drop the matter entirely. It is true that this is getting rather off-topic.

Edit: The steak example just doesn't fit.
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Old 2010-06-18, 14:04   Link #199
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This thread should be closed, seriously.

aohige already won, show's over!
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Old 2010-06-18, 22:51   Link #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
I have no idea what the hell you guys are babbling about, but I came on the thread with the promise of lolis dancing sexy dances, and found nothing but deleted videos.

Robbed, I tell you. ROBBED!

+1

This made me laugh out loud.

Now, just me or is young girls doing that kind of dancing considerably more disturbing in "real life" as composed to animated? Where it seems much more endearing?

edit: look at the video and was "wha... oh dear... *looks over his shoulder, closes tab*"
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